Too low over Leman lake on final GVA

[markkal]

On final to rwy 22 GVA, over the lake alarmingly below glideslope

https://simpleflying.com/easyjet-lake-geneva-airbus-a320neo-below-glideslope/

[OldLurker]

Incident: Easyjet A20N at Geneva on Nov 5th 2023, descended well below glideslope (https://www.avherald.com/h?article=513bee9f)

[Owen61]

This one is rather closer to home for me. Literally; I can see my house go by on the starboard side on final. I also have family in Scotland so am on this route a few times a year...
I was a bit surprised to learn that the altimeter reads out the ASL value and you have to subtract off the local elevation to get the actual height above the ground (or, in this case, lake). Do they still only have that spinny clock thing from the Spitfire days?

[galaxy flyer]

No, much better than that, uses air data, backed up by radar beams. Invented by clever RAF engineers.

[Jwscud]

Pure speculation, but I wonder if this was a mishandled GS from above (commenced from below the GS or without the G/S having beeen armed?).

Report will certainly make interesting reading…

[TheGorrilla]

That was the first thing that sprung to mind too. Had to fly the GS from above procedure many times into GVA. In a high workload situation it would be easy to miss the lack of GS blue. Under the circumstances that is about your only protection till the EGPWS pipes up.

[Pearly White]

This would have been quite the flight for the SLF, according to this article on MSN (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/easyjet-flight-from-uk-was-seconds-from-crashing-into-lake-in-the-alps/ar-BB1hYwc6?rc=1&ocid): Far from being surprised, '"the crew were able to avoid a collision with the water at the last second and looped over Thonon once they regained altitude".

It's been a while since I flew any serious aerobatics but a well-flown 1g loop can be a work of art, indeed none of the passengers seem to have even noticed the gentle transition to and from the inverted state at the top of the loop, so it must have a perfect execution. Would that be in Normal Law, or...?

Speaking of which, was there an uptick in tea and biccies expenditure at the EJ Head Office that week? Would have loved to have been a fly on the wall.

[Equivocal]

That was the first thing that sprung to mind too. Had to fly the GS from above procedure many times into GVA. In a high workload situation it would be easy to miss the lack of GS blue. Under the circumstances that is about your only protection till the EGPWS pipes up.
Do pilots not look out of the windows any more?

[CVividasku]

That was the first thing that sprung to mind too. Had to fly the GS from above procedure many times into GVA. In a high workload situation it would be easy to miss the lack of GS blue. Under the circumstances that is about your only protection till the EGPWS pipes up.
You mean apart from looking at the flight data ?

[blind pew]

Windows! It appears that no one was looking at the flight instruments either.
Flew 100s of approaches into GVA and only had one interesting one during my line training on the comparatively draggy DC9 32 or 51 and that was from the south onto 05. When cleared from approach from the hold in icing conditions I elected to do a dirty dive rather than the full let down and intercepted the glide slope flying manually using the flight director. Temperature rose so anti icing off but at the outer marker check the altitude was wrong..checked QNH settings and realised that I was flying the 6 degree glide slope..ordered flight director off and closed the throttles..intercepted correct glide path probably some 500ft above minimums. All within company rules as stabilised criteria was landing configuration selected by 400ft. Nothing mentioned in the debrief but then the skipper and safety pilot flew hunters.

[island_airphoto]

This one is rather closer to home for me. Literally; I can see my house go by on the starboard side on final. I also have family in Scotland so am on this route a few times a year...
I was a bit surprised to learn that the altimeter reads out the ASL value and you have to subtract off the local elevation to get the actual height above the ground (or, in this case, lake). Do they still only have that spinny clock thing from the Spitfire days?
Altimeters work the same as they did in the 1930s and 40s, they tell you your altitude above sea level. Radar altimeters tell you your height above terrain. Having the altimeter read AGL would mean it would be jumping all over the place over any kind of hilly terrain and make traffic control impossible.
There are a few ways the pilots should have known they were flying too low, the glideslope instrument would have shown this, the radar altimeter (if they had one) would show this, and whatever type of terrain warning they had would show this. The plane I fly most of the time now would have had a screen full of red showing me too low. Landing strictly visually with no aids whatsoever it is very easy to get low over water, especially flat water, but they shouldn't have been doing that AFAIK.

[speed13ird]

There are a few ways the pilots should have known they were flying too low, the glideslope instrument would have shown this, the radar altimeter (if they had one) would show this, and whatever type of terrain warning they had would show this.

I'm pretty sure they had a "radar altimeter".

[island_airphoto]

I'm pretty sure they had a "radar altimeter".
Should have turned it on then ;)

[speed13ird]

er, it's required equipment for dispatch and it's not fitted with an "off switch", it's what makes the EGPWS work, are you some sort of twit?

[Capt Scribble]

A nod's as good as a wink to a blind man...

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

I'm pretty sure they had a "radar altimeter".


A bit of an issue on a 320 if you don’t have at least one… :E

[punkalouver]

A bit of an issue on a 320 if you don’t have at least one… :E
I am amazed at how bad a design an aircraft can have when a loss of its two radalts has such significant consequence on aircraft handling.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

I am amazed at how bad a design an aircraft can have when a loss of its two radalts has such significant consequence on aircraft handling.

Whilst there have undoubtedly been many far worse design decisions, I heartily agree.

I would start talking all misty eyed about the 737 Classic at this point but I’d be told to go back to LGW and stay there.

[Stagformation]

Having the altimeter read AGL would mean it would be jumping all over the place over any kind of hilly terrain and make traffic control impossible.


Do you mean that airfield QFE settings vary across hilly terrain —yes of course they do. It’s difficult to tell, but maybe you meant that altimeters set to a QFE fluctuate wildly when flying over hilly terrain—which is complete nonsense! Barometric Altimeters are sensitive to the pressure (or ‘weight’) of the atmospheric column of air above them, not below them.

[aeromech3]

er, it's required equipment for dispatch and it's not fitted with an "off switch", it's what makes the EGPWS work, are you some sort of twit?
Low Range Radio Altimeter System (Not a radar altimeter) In my day 18 years ago with Classic B747 MMEL, Indicators Inop:- May be inoperative provided approach minimums or operating procedures do not require their use.
Receiver/Transmitter (R/T) Unit(s) May be inoperative provided:a) Dispatch deviation for GPWS inoperative is observed, b) Approach minimums or operating procedures do not require their use, and c) Operations are limited to not more than two flight days before repairs are made.
Of course some airports would not allow inop and I suspect GVA would not.

[island_airphoto]

er, it's required equipment for dispatch and it's not fitted with an "off switch", it's what makes the EGPWS work, are you some sort of twit?
That is a joke. Hard to tell on the internet I guess.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

Low Range Radio Altimeter System (Not a radar altimeter) In my day 18 years ago with Classic B747 MMEL, Indicators Inop:- May be inoperative provided approach minimums or operating procedures do not require their use.
Receiver/Transmitter (R/T) Unit(s) May be inoperative provided:a) Dispatch deviation for GPWS inoperative is observed, b) Approach minimums or operating procedures do not require their use, and c) Operations are limited to not more than two flight days before repairs are made.
Of course some airports would not allow inop and I suspect GVA would not.

At last, someone posts the different between a radar altimeter and a radio altimeter! I was biting my tongue.

On the bus and indeed the venerable 737 the rad alt (particularly the No.1) have inputs into the AP/AT so there are other issues that have to be considered in the MEL beyond where you’re going. Dual rad alt failure on the 320 can be nasty.

[megan]

At last, someone posts the different between a radar altimeter and a radio altimeterAnd the difference is ..................?

[markkal]

Arrival trajectory simulation on this clip

https://www.tdg.ch/reconstitution-en-video-du-vol-easyjet-qui-a-frole-le-crash-597339809458

[speed13ird]

Low Range Radio Altimeter System (Not a radar altimeter) In my day 18 years ago with Classic B747 MMEL, Indicators Inop:- May be inoperative provided approach minimums or operating procedures do not require their use.
Receiver/Transmitter (R/T) Unit(s) May be inoperative provided:a) Dispatch deviation for GPWS inoperative is observed, b) Approach minimums or operating procedures do not require their use, and c) Operations are limited to not more than two flight days before repairs are made.
Of course some airports would not allow inop and I suspect GVA would not.
good chap, you've just defined "required equipment"

[TheGorrilla]

Do pilots not look out of the windows any more?

Don’t know what conditions they were in. It’s very easy to miss the GS blue FMA if you’re working like a one armed paper hanger because ATC have put you in a rubbish position.

[Capn Bloggs]

Under the circumstances that is about your only protection till the EGPWS pipes up.
No it's not, you set the Alt SEL to 1000 above airport and don't go below it until you've captured the GS. Or you could call "Stable" at 500ft AAL (if not 1000 doing an ILS)....