Logging flight hours

[Puffpuffgive]

Morning,

I have two questions. I hold a UK and a Canadian PPL.

Does the CAA require you to log every flight that you fly in your pilots log?

Transport Canada and the CAA have different rules on how some flights are logged (such as Cross Country), who's rules should I follow in my pilot log book, should I record each flight twice in two pilot logs one for UK and one for Canada?

Thanks for any advice

[Jhieminga]

I think that answer to your first question is yes, provided that you're exercising the priviliges from your UK PPL. It all depends a bit on how you want to move forward, as the main reason for keeping accurate track of your experience is to be able to prove that you have that experience at a later stage. So, if you are looking to upgrade to another licence or add a rating that requires a certain amount of experience, at that point you will need to be able to show the paperwork that shows that experience.
I only have one licence, so perhaps I'm not the best person to answer this, but I can see both options working out:
1. You could use two logbooks, logging whatever you fly on your UK licence in one, any flights using your Canadian licence in the other. You could perhaps cross-credit something at a later stage and this would make sorting through the various flights easier at that point.
2. You could log everything in one logbook, but you would need to switch between the different rules for every flight as you switch using the two licences. If you ever need to show a certain amount of experience, it can get a bit complicated if you need to add up the accumulated hours on one licence only.

Alternatively, you could consider going down the electronic route. I know that a lot of the e-logbook applications allow you to run two or more logbooks side by side. It might make things easier.

[rudestuff]

2. You could log everything in one logbook, but you would need to switch between the different rules for every flight as you switch using the two licences. If you ever need to show a certain amount of experience, it can get a bit complicated if you need to add up the accumulated hours on one licence only.The problem with this is that you don't log according to the rules of the license you're using - you log according to what the authority wants to see. For example you couldn't fly dual IR training with an instructor and claim it as PIC to the CAA because you were using your FAA certificate, they would still count it as dual only.
Two logbooks or an electronic logbook are the easiest options. You could also use one logbook and log according to the most restrictive rule, or simply fill in each page as normal and not tally the totals - highlight rule differences and keep the totals on a separate piece of paper. There are so many options which meet the legal requirements, you could write it on a stone table if you wanted. Just make sure it's easy to pull out the hours that you need every time you apply for something.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I haven't used my Transport Canada PPL for years, but do have CAA, EASA and FAA CPLs, so have a reasonable knowledge I hope of the rules.

Morning,

I have two questions. I hold a UK and a Canadian PPL.

Does the CAA require you to log every flight that you fly in your pilots log?

Yes it does. Unlike, say, FAA, who only require enough evidence to show compliance with licencing recency rules.

Transport Canada and the CAA have different rules on how some flights are logged (such as Cross Country), who's rules should I follow in my pilot log book, should I record each flight twice in two pilot logs one for UK and one for Canada?

Thanks for any advice

You should comply with both. Where the rules are different either side of the Atlantic, either keep two logbooks, or have multiple columns so that the totals are added up differently according to each authority - this last is what I do.

The ability to keep an electronic logbook helps a lot in my case, so whilst I do maintain a paper logbook (quite a complicated one) it's my electronic logbook that really works out all the different totals for the various authorities who I hold licences with. There are a load of commercial products out there but personally, I wrote my own - originally in MS Excel, nowadays running in Libre Office Calc, as I didn't find any of the commercial logbooks could handle the sheer complexity of what I need to log well enough. To be fair, I went electronic ten years ago, so I'm sure that there are better products available now.

G

[Puffpuffgive]

Thank you for all the advice everyone.

I haven't used my Transport Canada PPL for years, but do have CAA, EASA and FAA CPLs, so have a reasonable knowledge I hope of the rules.

You should comply with both. Where the rules are different either side of the Atlantic, either keep two logbooks, or have multiple columns so that the totals are added up differently according to each authority - this last is what I do.

G

So I get this right can I give you this example: If I fly in the UK in a G reg plane, I fly 15nm from the aerodrome, do some air exercises, then fly back. I list this in my logbook as PIC 1hr, then have a UK cross country column and list it as 1hr, and a Canada cross country column and list it as 0hr (as Canada requires a touch and go at another aerodrome).

If I then go to Canada and fly a C reg plane, do another 15nm from the aerodrome, do some air exercises, then fly back, I log this as PIC 1hr and again in the UK cross country column list 1hr and in the Canada cross country column list 0hr. Is that the right way of doing it?

[Piper.Classique]

A shout out here for Logbook Aero, who will transfer your spreadsheet entries to their format. We had a little fun with the seaplane logging, as apparently they don't have very many (I may have been their first). Very helpful, and it's easy to use for a reasonable monthly fee.

[Prop swinger]

Assuming the UK adopted the EASA definition of cross country flight, then:Cross-country means a flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures.so probably not a 15nm jaunt to an exercise area, at least not for the full hour. Only relevant if you're hour building for the CPL MPL or ATPL, of course.

Personally, I would try to keep everything in one logbook but with separate P/UT totals, much easier done electronically. As far as the CAA are concerned, all PIC time is loggable irrespective of where it was flown and what the registration was, so counts towards the revalidation requirements. P/UT time in Canada would not, so hours with a Canadian instructor would not count towards CAA licence revalidation. No doubt Transport Canada has similar requirements. If it's all too complicated keep separate logbooks but include overseas PIC time in the CAA logbook and, if allowed/relevant, UK PIC time in the Canadian logbook.

[+TSRA]

P/UT time in Canada would not

Nice and easy here in Canada. There is no such thing as P/UT when building towards the CPL (or any other license or rating below the ATPL). It's either PIC or Dual.

PICUS (the same basic thing as P/UT) is available for the ATPL. It is only available when the air operator (not a flight school) you are working for is approved to do so in its training manual, and then only with the approval of the Captain (who sometimes has a company form to complete). There are other requirements too, but I can't recall them all off the top of my head. What I do remember is that many air operators I worked for had a minimum time with the company before they permitted you to apply for PICUS (my previous company had a first recurrent restriction, so 6 months) In the pilot's logbook, PICUS was logged in one of the blank columns, not in the PIC column.

If I then go to Canada and fly a C reg plane, do another 15nm from the aerodrome, do some air exercises, then fly back, I log this as PIC 1hr and again in the UK cross country column list 1hr and in the Canada cross country column list 0hr. Is that the right way of doing it?

You could log it like that, or you could log the hours based on the most restrictive country - that's what I did when I did the same thing as you, but between Canada and New Zealand. in your case, you'd only log cross-country time on either a G- or C-registered airplane when you went to another airport. Outside of regulatory requirements though, consider the purpose of cross-country training, be it dual or solo. It's not simply heading out to the practice area which is in full view of the airport you left and staying in your comfort zone. It's meant to get you used to going somewhere you're not familiar with while being able to continue to navigate to another airport all while interacting with the airspace and aircraft around you. I'm somewhat surprised you can log cross-country without going to another airport, but that's the beauty of different regulations!

[rudestuff]

Nice and easy here in Canada. There is no such thing as P/UT when building towards the CPL (or any other license or rating below the ATPL). It's either PIC or Dual.

PICUS (the same basic thing as P/UT) is available for the ATPL.
PIC/US = Pilot in command under supervision.
P/UT = Pilot under training = Dual.

[Jhieminga]

Assuming the UK adopted the EASA definition of cross country flight, then:so probably not a 15nm jaunt to an exercise area, at least not for the full hour. Only relevant if you're hour building for the CPL MPL or ATPL, of course.
As far as I can tell the amendments to EASA Part-FCL to make it into UK Part-FCL do not include a change to that particular definition. That means that there is no 15nm limit within the regulations, but the definition does state "a pre-planned route, using standard navigation procedures". Assuming that you do not draw a line on the map and write out a complete navlog for every jaunt to the exercise area, I'm not sure I would log these bits as a cross-country flight. You can of course have a 'local' cross-country flight where you fly a pre-planned route but end up at the same aerodrome. Personally, I only tick the 'X-C' box in my logbook if I'm going to another airfield, but as I'm not actively looking to collect more of these hours for any purpose, it's mostly a bookkeeping exercise.

Going back to the main question, you can certainly use two 'X-C' columns, one for UK and one for Canada, provided that this is the only real difference between the two sets of regulations. I am not entirely sure that total experience can be added up for both licences if you'll ever need to show a specific amount of hours to one authority... make sure to check this if you're going to upgrade your licence in the future.

[BillieBob]

There has never been any distance requirement for a flight to qualify as a 'cross-country' under UK law. There used to be a popular misconception that flight more than 3 miles from the aerodrome defined a 'cross-country' but this was simply a mis-application of the authorisation privileges of an AFI. UK law requires that all flights in UK-registered aircraft are recorded in a personal flight log and the details that have to be recorded are listed in the ANO Art 228. The important thing to understand is that the flight log is personal and you may record in it any information in excess of the minimum requirements that you wish.

[Puffpuffgive]

Thanks everyone. I’m going to start a digital logbook and log each flight with the TC/CAA differences dealt with using additional columns.

[Genghis the Engineer]

If I may offer a simple, pragmatic solution to the particular issue.

The UK, Canada, and USA all need 20hrs cross-country for CPL, and 50hrs for an IR.

The UK has no formal definition of cross-country, in Canada it's 25 miles, in the USA it's 50nm.

So, pick the highest distance requirement of any country you have any plans to be licenced in, log that, and there will never be any ambiguity. And lets face it, even 50nm is no big deal when hour building is it?

That's what I did. I did my UK CPL first, but doing my FAA CPL later there was no issue, and presumably if I ever wanted a Canadian CPL I'd have no problem there either.

G

[Jhieminga]

Well... there is a formal definition of cross-country within the UK, it just does not include a minimum distance. 😉 Prop swinger quoted it in post #7 (https://www.pprune.org/private-flying/657246-logging-flight-hours.html#post11586167). The problem is that it is not clear enough to be able to say which flight was cross-country and which one was not based on departure and arrival points, or on any other fact that you will find in your logbook. Because of that, you will need to make sure that students log the relevant flights in the correct way as they progress through their syllabus, and if everything works out, that should provide them with the minimum number of cross-country hours needed. Getting multiple licences from different authorities messes things up of course... but your pragmatic solution works. :ok:

[selfin]

“as Canada requires a touch and go at another aerodrome”

“in Canada [a cross country is] 25 miles”

Neither of these statements is a legal requirement, AFAIK.

[EXDAC]

To be fair, I went electronic ten years ago, so I'm sure that there are better products available now. G

I found that quite amusing. My electronic log started on the Douglas flight test mainframe computer, migrated to BBC Basic, and has since then run on dBASE (originally III and now IV).

[Genghis the Engineer]

I found that quite amusing. My electronic log started on the Douglas flight test mainframe computer, migrated to BBC Basic, and has since then run on dBASE (originally III and now IV).

The "earlier than thou" position :8:)

G

[Jan Olieslagers]

My electronic log started on the Douglas flight test mainframe computer, migrated to BBC Basic, and has since then run on dBASE (originally III and now IV). Cheese us! Talking of stone age IT! Then again, if it works for you then why not? Is the whole thing pedal-powered or have you already invented the water-wheel :p ?

[EXDAC]

The "earlier than thou" position :8:)

I was amused by the "better products available" notion. Mine produces all the reports I need and, if I need a new one, I just write a short program to produce it.

The cross country thing is interesting. In USA there is more than one definition of cross country. Last number I needed to know was requirements for ATP. FAA doesn't think my nearly 100,000 km of closed course cross country in gliders is qualifying. However, the times I "landed out" on a contest flight did count as long as the distance from the takeoff point was sufficient. Write the code, produce the report, and found I did have have enough qualifying cross country for ATP (didn't bother sitting the exams though as I didn't need another trophy rating)

There may be commercial program that offer this flexibility but I doubt I'd "upgrade". DOS rocks!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Working, now, in Libre Office Calc, the big thing it gives me that a DOS based application (and I'm certainly old enough to remember how to do that sort of thing) wouldn't anything like so easily, is elegant presentations. I like a lot being able to drop out a single A4 page as a PDF that I can email anybody wanting or needing a summary of my total flying experience. I've not played with any recent iterations, but I imagine that most of the commercial products will do something like that also.

G

[Jim59]

In gliding, for the Silver Badge a solo cross-country to a point 50 km away from the launch release is required. For the UK CAA SPL (SailplanePilots Licence) also a 50 km flight if solo, or 100 km if dual. (27 or 55 nm.).

[Genghis the Engineer]

And, having just started teaching them myself, the UK and EASA Night Qualifications require a 27nm night cross country of at-least an hour. Which is a very very slow 27nm !

G

[rarelyathome]

And, having just started teaching them myself, the UK and EASA Night Qualifications require a 27nm night cross country of at-least an hour. Which is a very very slow 27nm !

G

Not quite. The requirement is “ ….including at least 1 hour of cross-country navigation with at least one dual cross-country flight of at least 50 km (27 NM)” So 18ish minutes of dual x-country in the average GA training aircraft to cover 27NM. The rest could be solo or a separate night local famil.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Indeed. Personally I've actually been delivering it as a slightly longer X-country of at least an hour with regular en-route simulated emergencies.

G