Why would you come to CX?

[herewego75]

I have been struggling with this question recently. As a 747 pilot, I see all my peers around me becoming demotivated and depressed. I am astounded that pilots are still applying and coming to Cathay Pacific.

I have to witness the pure disrespect that the company is showing every pilot and cabin crew, including me. It is disgusting that the managers of flight operations are allowing this. They should be ashamed of themselves.
There is right and wrong in life and what is going on in CX at the moment is WRONG.

If any new pilot is thinking about Cathay Pacific as a future employer. I beg you to reconsider. You will be treated like rubbish. You will work hard to become a professional in your flying career only to be ignored and overlooked.

Seniority means absolutely nothing. The amount of upgrades that are happening out of seniority is unbelievable. This does not just affect a person's goodwill to the company but affects his earning potential, staff travel priority etc. Fleet transfers are no longer done fairly and openly but it's done at the behest of the company. They have ruined so many lives and caused countless stress to their pilots and cabin crew.

If you join as a DEFO, be careful with all the lies you are told. You will eventually have to accept that this is a company that will throw you under the bus if needed.
If you are joining as a SO please understand that you will sit for many many years before you get taken seriously. You will be abused by the rostering system and not have control of your life.

If any member of the AOA or the FAU is reading this, please let's all band together and formulate a plan to put an end to this madness. Your members are paying you to protect them and give them sound advice. Why are you not doing so?

In my eyes both the union and company are to blame.

All this I have written above is in my honest opinion and what I have observed recently.

[Meursault]

People join for the same reasons you have for not leaving.

[noboloco]

I have been struggling with this question recently. As a 747 pilot, I see all my peers around me becoming demotivated and depressed. I am astounded that pilots are still applying and coming to Cathay Pacific.

I have to witness the pure disrespect that the company is showing every pilot and cabin crew, including me. It is disgusting that the managers of flight operations are allowing this. They should be ashamed of themselves.
There is right and wrong in life and what is going on in CX at the moment is WRONG.

If any new pilot is thinking about Cathay Pacific as a future employer. I beg you to reconsider. You will be treated like rubbish. You will work hard to become a professional in your flying career only to be ignored and overlooked.

Seniority means absolutely nothing. The amount of upgrades that are happening out of seniority is unbelievable. This does not just affect a person's goodwill to the company but affects his earning potential, staff travel priority etc. Fleet transfers are no longer done fairly and openly but it's done at the behest of the company. They have ruined so many lives and caused countless stress to their pilots and cabin crew.

If you join as a DEFO, be careful with all the lies you are told. You will eventually have to accept that this is a company that will throw you under the bus if needed.
If you are joining as a SO please understand that you will sit for many many years before you get taken seriously. You will be abused by the rostering system and not have control of your life.

If any member of the AOA or the FAU is reading this, please let's all band together and formulate a plan to put an end to this madness. Your members are paying you to protect them and give them sound advice. Why are you not doing so?

In my eyes both the union and company are to blame.

All this I have written above is in my honest opinion and what I have observed recently.

there are literally jobs everywhere right now, if cx is as bad as you make it out why not do yourself a favour and leave? No one is handcuffed to the company despite what they may claim. Life is too short to be so unhappy.

it’s fine to complain about the company but to tell others not to join while you refuse to leave is nothing short of hypocritical. The AOA is only as strong as its members - if you aren’t willing to take action - you are part of the problem.

[cxflog]

Why should you stay at CX? For all the reasons you listed it makes zero sense for any rhyme or reason that you continue to take a flogging from Cx management and give them exactly what they want; an employee that will take any and all abuse and complain a little but still get the job done. I should say I’m proud that you’ve managed to last this long. After signing COS18 in late 2020 my foot was already out the door and leaving was the best career decision I made. I do wish you and your fellow employees the best for the future, I hate seeing my fellow brothers and sisters exploited by garbage employers.

[krismiler]

1. Currently out of work with no other prospects.
2. Better than your current job.
3. Get the type rating, some time on type and move on.
4. Been turned down by the airlines you really wanted to work for.

[Meursault]

Where else would a Hong Kong citizen ( or soon mainlander from Shenzen etc) who wants to become a pilot apply?

[cygnet78]

exactly the question to yourself, why dont you leave ? asking others not to join but you staying ? this is the kind of pilots CX have ?

[Fac6]

Bleating from the roof tops about how bad it is, yet he isn't going anywhere. Telling everyone else not to come whilst you stay and complain about the AOA. Pathetic!

You cannot be taken seriously dude.

[Stallone]

Countless left CX n returned

If the gigs out there are really that good, they wouldn't have made the 180° turn

[Rice power]

Countless didn't come back.
There are still some people for whom honour and integrity remain the guiding principles for life.

[Veruka Salt]

Some came back. Bit of a stretch to call it countless. As a % of those who left, the number of returnees is minuscule. I sure as f@ck won’t be one of them.

[AQIS Boigu]

Why did you do an early freighter command?

Why did you go into training?

Why did you go into training against the training ban?

Why did you do an STC upgrade?

Why did you do a BTC upgrade?

Why did you do closed loops?

Why did you do “Team B” despite the fatigue?

Why did you request W patterns on the A340 when there was so little long haul available and you weren’t a commuter?

Why did you join without ARAPA in 2010?

Why did you join with HKPA in 2014?

Why did you join on Cos18?


Never ask a question with ”why” in CX or in HKG

[Uplinker]

How bizarre that people are trashing this OP for trying to help other pilots !

If genuine; this OP is trying to offer advice, based on what they are experiencing on the inside of this airline. They themselves might be trapped and not able to leave right now - they might have children going through college, or a mortgage to pay off, or only a couple of years left before they retire. Hard to leave that and start again at the bottom maybe.

But they are trying to warn others about the current employment situation in this company, and some people are having a go at them for it ??

(I would however, suggest that the OP write directly to their union rather than ask their union for action via this website. Maybe they have tried that already.)

[jbking]

Because we all have ****ty passports and can’t work in the US.

[Will IB Fayed]

I have been struggling with this question recently. As a 747 pilot, I see all my peers around me becoming demotivated and depressed. I am astounded that pilots are still applying and coming to Cathay Pacific.

I have to witness the pure disrespect that the company is showing every pilot and cabin crew, including me. It is disgusting that the managers of flight operations are allowing this. They should be ashamed of themselves.
There is right and wrong in life and what is going on in CX at the moment is WRONG.

If any new pilot is thinking about Cathay Pacific as a future employer. I beg you to reconsider. You will be treated like rubbish. You will work hard to become a professional in your flying career only to be ignored and overlooked.

Seniority means absolutely nothing. The amount of upgrades that are happening out of seniority is unbelievable. This does not just affect a person's goodwill to the company but affects his earning potential, staff travel priority etc. Fleet transfers are no longer done fairly and openly but it's done at the behest of the company. They have ruined so many lives and caused countless stress to their pilots and cabin crew.

If you join as a DEFO, be careful with all the lies you are told. You will eventually have to accept that this is a company that will throw you under the bus if needed.
If you are joining as a SO please understand that you will sit for many many years before you get taken seriously. You will be abused by the rostering system and not have control of your life.

If any member of the AOA or the FAU is reading this, please let's all band together and formulate a plan to put an end to this madness. Your members are paying you to protect them and give them sound advice. Why are you not doing so?

In my eyes both the union and company are to blame.

All this I have written above is in my honest opinion and what I have observed recently.

What a pathetically transparent attempt to stop new recruits from joining in the hope CX will improve your conditions.
Grow a pair and leave.

[Dragon Pacific]

Pilots used to leave a command in their home country to come to Cathay as an FO. It was a highly sought after and desirable airline to work for. They now give give up a Cathay command to return home to an FO position.
I think that just about sums it up.

[CessNah]

What's everyone's opinion on the impeding mainland invasion of Taiwan and the implication that has on not just CX as a business, but HK as a whole? Aside from the behemoth of toxic reasons I read on this forum, the mainland's recent escalation is enough to put me off from wanting to move out there.

[magenta magnet]

Everything at CX has to do with money. It has nothing to do with flying 80 hours a month plus or roster changes or flying over CNY etc that's bull, at EK you'll go over 100hrs easy, do they moan 24/7? nope.. why? money.
If you can suck up Dubai, the heat, the locals, the noose over your head then that's up to you, sure your kids might get skin cancer for their 9th birthday and your wifes face might melt with all the botox but the money is great! Rule 1: take their money and then leave. Now CX used to be very similar to them except the environment was awesome, amazing city, amazing people and a fun airline and the money was just as good. Fast forward and everyone is angry about what EK make vs CX, as CX is bankrupt and pays 50% less.

You decide, how much are you saving each month now vs how much you would save each month in EK. Even if there is another airline with less pay and a better environment then you have to decide. If you're young and can suck up EK then do it whilst you're young. Do it for 10 years then you can (if you've saved like normal) then decide on where you want to chill for the remainder of your career.

Remember some people are happy with $1,000 and some are unhappy with $20,000 it's all up to you, and stop looking at social media to gauge your happiness it's all fake and they live on their credit cards.

[Meursault]

What's everyone's opinion on the impeding mainland invasion of Taiwan and the implication that has on not just CX as a business, but HK as a whole? Aside from the behemoth of toxic reasons I read on this forum, the mainland's recent escalation is enough to put me off from wanting to move out there.

Valid point. I guess the problem is the unpredictability. Taiwan is the rethoric target of China since decades, so far they did not attack. I don't know the answer, but one thing is certain, it would affect not only the region, it would cause a major global crisis. Sure, HK would be dangerously close, but trade between China and rest of the world is a substantial part of any international airline. I would say the risk is largest with any cargo airline and least with LCC?

Also consider the significant risks of escalation in the Gulf area, in South Africa, in Mexico/Venezuela/South America, in Europe/Ukraine. In the end a question of where you are right now and how you assess the risk at your home I would say.I recently flew with a Ukrainian, a Filipino and a guy from Simbabwe. I don't think they are as concerned about Taiwan as others..

[Meursault]

Fast forward and everyone is angry about what EK make vs CX, as CX is bankrupt and pays 50% less.
.

Bold statement. Can you back that up with numbers?

[cygnet78]

Those who said EK earn more than CX are just liar. They dont know how low EK pay is. For those who are interested in CX , please keep applying. Big changes coming soon after task force set up by govt and CX. They will take everybody.

[Uplinker]

Well, we can see who the Cx management spokesmen are in this thread ! :)

[KABOY]

Those who said EK earn more than CX are just liar. They dont know how low EK pay is. For those who are interested in CX , please keep applying. Big changes coming soon after task force set up by govt and CX. They will take everybody.

The other important factor in a move to HK is your part of the Truman show. Since the HK protests CX provide the mainland government the GD for flights through their airspace. The mainland needs to assess the security threat the aircraft’s poses as it transits their airspace.
After that pattern you can relax back in your HK anonymous lifestyle where your HKID is recorded everywhere you go and who your employer is.
Make sure you don’t have an opinion on the 3T’s otherwise you will be marched off an airplane and not recorded as being in HK. Apparently you can cross the border and not be recorded doing so….who would have thought that is possible.

The take away from this is that you are no longer working in an independent HK. You are now part of the mainland, and anyone who has worked there will know what cost that needs to be added to any contract. Unfortunately CX doesn’t seem to account for that..

[Oasis]

I’m glad CX is finally lowering their standards. I have one eye, color blind and full blown AIDS.
Finally I have a shot at my dream job!

[Klimax]

I’m glad CX is finally lowering their standards. I have one eye, color blind and full blown AIDS.
Finally I have a shot at my dream job!

you’re over qualified for CX mate! Hate to burst ur bubble!

[Zi Peng]

Pilots used to leave a command in their home country to come to Cathay as an FO. It was a highly sought after and desirable airline to work for. They now give give up a Cathay command to return home to an FO position.
I think that just about sums it up.

Very true.
This is a fact, unarguable .

I might add get a command and disappear, get a good TR a few hours and disappear, stay another two years for the kids to finish school and go.

[Meursault]

Not wrong, but the same argument could be made for hundreds of other airlines, including US majors.It used to be more difficult to get in almost everywhere, and likewise successful candidates have in general less experience nowadays.

[main_dog]

True, but none of those getting commands in US majors, legacy carriers or even EK are leaving their airlines like in CX. I’ve had two friends leave well under a year after becoming CNs here (one practically handed in his resignation as he received his four bars). Unimaginable until 3 years ago.

We simply can’t compare ourselves to such airlines anymore.

[jjmclure]

True, but none of those getting commands in US majors, legacy carriers or even EK are leaving their airlines like in CX. I’ve had two friends leave well under a year after becoming CNs here (one practically handed in his resignation as he received his four bars). Unimaginable until 3 years ago.

We simply can’t compare ourselves to such airlines anymore.
Yep, they are the Nokia of Airlines!

[Pickuptruck]

We had 230 new joiners and around 210 quit so we're up by 20 or so in last 12 months. we had historically around 50-60 retire every year in the 20 ish years pre 2018. So CX still has 4 times the usual quitting/retirees. The days of anyone with any experience wanting to join CX are long gone, we're cranking up mainland recruitment for flightcrew, it's the only way forward.
As someone said, it's all about money, if you're on base pay at CX as many are you're worse off than if you'd stayed at a legacy carrier elsewhere like BA/QF etc, even with their higher tax base. That's how bad the pay at CX has got, though plenty of CX fanboys refuse to even look at what legacy carriers pay in 2024. We all had the choice and we took CX while our mates stayed and did the extra years to command at legacy carriers and now we're embarrassed to admit it wasn't the best choice.

[cygnet78]

not true .. there are still a lot of experienced pilots out there queueing to join. just accept all of them will solve the problem. special task force set up for this purpose. HR will make the call and FOP will just take order . hahahahaha....

[CessNah]

New leaked images of this aforementioned "special task force"
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/618x435/screen_shot_2024_02_05_at_1_56_53_pm_691ea701e9e42872cf2551a d023716cf17ab9bf2.png

[veryoldchinahand]

Thanks for the self portrait !

[raven11]

At one time the pilot ranks of Cathay Pacific were considered the gold standard of aviation experience and achievement. Sadly, after decades of toxic mismanagement and mindless cost cutting, the real and respected old China hands have all been pushed out. Mission accomplished.

Today Cathay Pacific has become an embarrassing punch line among the international pilot community.

Thanks goes to those geniuses that occupied the executive and flight ops offices during the long decline. Motivated purely by greed and jealousy, true weasels one and all.

[Zi Peng]

not true .. there are still a lot of experienced pilots out there queueing to join. just accept all of them will solve the problem. special task force set up for this purpose. HR will make the call and FOP will just take order . hahahahaha....

Not what I hear from trainers and sim instructors, the command course mantra is you will be flying with an imbecile.
I have been personally in touch with experienced pilots asking for info and they are staying well away these days.
On one count you are correct, FOP just takes orders, from a bunch of incompetent idiots unfortunately but that doesn’t make them less guilty

[Zapp_Brannigan]

I've been told by a friend still at CX that the sim passing rate for new DEFO applicants is absolutely appalling.
And that FOP has been asked to justify why they're failing candidates that obviously can't fly.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel, it seems...

​​​​​​

[cygnet78]

special task force by govt will fix this issue.

[Oasis]

From the captains flying at cx I’ve heard the quality of who they work with in the cockpit has gone down significantly, making their job harder than say 3-4 years ago. Fo training is something like 15 sectors. When I went through it was at least 40, if you were lucky, many went to 60, if not more.

They should be paying the captains 30 percent MORE, not less!

[Window heat]

It’s great to see that cygnet78 is so upbeat about the future at CX. I fly with ex CX guys and girls every month. They’re very clear about why they left and what happened to the culture when “the two Chinese a@#$&#@s” were assigned to management roles.

I had with a few who still fly there, their family lives are almost unliveable, no rostering, commuter type rosters and rubbish pay.

A once great airline has been ruined, that’s undeniable.

[cxflog]

It’s great to see that cygnet78 is so upbeat about the future at CX. I fly with ex CX guys and girls every month. They’re very clear about why they left and what happened to the culture when “the two Chinese a@#$&#@s” were assigned to management roles.

I had with a few who still fly there, their family lives are almost unliveable, no rostering, commuter type rosters and rubbish pay.

A once great airline has been ruined, that’s undeniable.
I believe his post was sarcasm, or maybe I’m reading too much into it.

It is sad to see how far CX has fallen. A once mighty world class airline to a basic Chinese LCC with a premium product. Truly one of the greatest falls from grace.

[raven11]

Ten years ago I went into Flight Ops to complain to the Chief Pilot of Training about my concern that mindless cost cutting was leading to a decline in experience on the flight deck, with specific emphasis on the stupidity of rostering two second officers on a four man long haul crew.

The rostering of two second officers on a four man crew was bad enough, but it was beyond belief that it was being implemented in an unrestricted manner, once again to save costs. For example, crew control was free to roster two brand new second officer (fresh out of basic pilot training) with a brand new relief commander and a brand new captain. What could go wrong?

As I tried to argue how idiotic this was his response to me was beyond belief. He asked me what I would have him tell the CEO (RH at the time)?

I looked at him stunned for a moment then slowly replied that he should tell him that it was unsafe! That it was his job to tell him that it was unsafe! That his position as a manager was moot if all he was going to tell senior executives was only what they wanted to hear!

I’m convinced that the reason for the decline in any great company would mirror a similar mindless cost cutting protocol. Penny wise and pound foolish.

I remember a conversation I once had with a grizzly old captain about whether he lamented the loss of the navigator in airliners. His answer was no, that pound for pound…he’d rather carry fuel.

I think this same logic should apply to employing weak flight ops managers afraid to relay real safety concerns to senior airline executives. Pound for pound….an airline would be better off purchasing fuel.

[Farman Biplane]

; They should be paying the captains 30 percent MORE, not less!

No, a 100% increase would put the CN back at COS99 after the 50% COVID cut.

Then discussion should continue on real COSILIV increases….

Dont believe the hype, and I know, “tell ‘I’m he’s dreamin…”

[pill]

Sorry Raven, but give me two brand new SO's over 3 man long haul any day.

[Oddball77]

Those who said EK earn more than CX are just liar. They dont know how low EK pay is. For those who are interested in CX , please keep applying. Big changes coming soon after task force set up by govt and CX. They will take everybody.

True my mate at EK says as 380 FO he’s clears 8200 USD pm with all the allowances and OT etc. But his kids go school for free, free housing and utilities. So he’s on about 66k HKD pm disposable income.

[controlledrest]

...Pound for pound….an airline would be better off purchasing fuel.

Not if that airline was CX and they had hedged.

[joblow]

Raven , you raise a very valid point , but safety sadly is driven by lip service and money .If RH was a manager of repute he would not have needed input from the training dept he would have taken action on his own on the merit of the issue.
so let’s take a worse case scenario , a brand new SO is on his own in the flight deck whilst the FO takes a toilet break . Explosive decompression occurs , the supplementary CA sitting in the jump seat has no Oxygen supply so has passed out by the time the FO tries to get back in .
Thus the SO may have to manage the entire process on his own not something that fills me confidence .

[raven11]

Joblow….I’ll take your example one step further. Time of useful consciousness at 41,000 feet in an explosive decompression is less than 10 seconds and requires pressure breathing oxygen. In your example, the brand new second officer and young cabin attendant in the cockpit fail to extract and get their masks on in less than 10 seconds….
The relief crew outside the cockpit will not have pressure breathing oxygen available to them as they attempt to use emergency door entry procedures to bypass the locked cockpit door and they succumb to hypoxia. The aircraft continues to fly until it runs out of fuel….

i raised this very scenario many times to Flight Ops management to no avail…..because…safety was their top priority.

[nicoli]

Ever heard of the Auto Descent ? The SO will do just fine …

[Verbal Kint]

Ever heard of the Auto Descent ? The SO will do just fine …

Only the 350 has auto emergency descent. The 777,747 & 330 don’t.

[Meursault]

Will an overweight 60ish year old immersed in his Golf magazine be quicker than a 22 year old SO? I would call it a toss-up :-))

[buggaluggs]

Well, given that on more than one occasion we've had unaccompanied SO's sit petrified and completely unreactive through TCAS RA's in the cruise, my money is on the 60 something Skipper every time!

[Boulanger]

An SO should have more exposure to emergency descents in training. This said, the problem is the lack of exposure to actually operating the aircraft, which also results in a lack of engagement on the job. It's one thing to know the procedure in the sim, and another to not get jittery when something actually happens and the guy in the seat isn't completely comfortable in the aircraft.

[Frank W. Abagnale]

Will an overweight 60ish year old immersed in his Golf magazine be quicker than a 22 year old SO? I would call it a toss-up :-))

That statement is so wrong on many levels.
It makes me wonder if you are actually a pilot at all.

Perhaps you are not as smart as you think you are.

[magenta magnet]

The odds of an explosive decompression in the cockpit are about 1/billion or even more. If that did happen then you'd have 10 seconds consciousness, BUT you'd probably die from frostbite, as well as your top lips being ripped off and your lungs exploding as 900kph wind hits them, plus you wouldn't be able to see anything anyway.. but a "normal" explosive decompression somewhere on the plane would still take a long time to suck out all the air, so the 10 seconds isn't really accurate and you would have plenty time to don your mask and get the old Captain and Co-Pilot to hurry back into the cockpit for any help you may need...

I'm pretty sure a SO can work out how to descend the plane without ripping the wings off her

[backspace]

God, some of you guys have absolutely no idea.

[buggaluggs]

The odds of an explosive decompression in the cockpit are about 1/billion or even more. If that did happen then you'd have 10 seconds consciousness, BUT you'd probably die from frostbite, as well as your top lips being ripped off and your lungs exploding as 900kph wind hits them, plus you wouldn't be able to see anything anyway.. but a "normal" explosive decompression somewhere on the plane would still take a long time to suck out all the air, so the 10 seconds isn't really accurate and you would have plenty time to don your mask and get the old Captain and Co-Pilot to hurry back into the cockpit for any help you may need...

I'm pretty sure a SO can work out how to descend the plane without ripping the wings off her



Please tell me you don't fly jets for a living!.....

[VforVENDETTA]

Wow wow wow...

Who was it said "you better keep your mouth shut and appear stupid rather than open it and remove all doubt".

The levels of green lack of knowledge and understanding in some of the above comments are astonishing. I'd rather do a rapid descent all alone by myself any day than have one like these sitting next to me attempting to help.

If these are cathay pilots, it truly shows the scary low levels of knowledge and experience present on cathay flight decks today.

[Meursault]

In the last 50 years, on western civil aircraft, how many sudden cases of loss of cabin pressure and subsequent application of 10-20 sec of TUC? Now consider the number of flights where it did not happen. Then consider the total flight time of all flights globally and put it in relation to the total time of a long haul flight with an inexperienced SO alone in the seat.

I think Magenta is not far off, less than one in a billion would be my guess.

[stevieboy330]

"magenta magnet" awesome troll bro ! You nearly had me ! I love a good wind up too.

[raven11]

Meursault
Now give us the stats on the chances of loosing an engine during a heavy weight take off precisely at V1…..

It’s the limited thinking like yours that led to the disastrous development of the 737 Max. How’s that working out for Boeing?

Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.

[raven11]

V for Vendetta

Totally agree.

Just before I retired I had a line SO on a check ride that was completely unaware of the requirement for pressure breathing above 35,000’; he was also adamant that the concept of “Time of Useful Consciousness” regarding the onset of hypoxia in a high altitude decompression was a myth because he could hold his breath for over a minute…..

He was a fully rated P2X line pilot.

As I posted earlier…what could go wrong?

[Meursault]

Meursault
Now give us the stats on the chances of loosing an engine during a heavy weight take off precisely at V1…..

It’s the limited thinking like yours that led to the disastrous development of the 737 Max. How’s that working out for Boeing?

Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.

So you are saying probability doesn't matter? Or that the estimate is wrong? And where is the association to the 737 Max? Or to an engine fail at V1? I am discussing a specific threat in cruise with an SO as sole occupant. If you disagree with the proposed ratio you are welcome to offer an alternative number. Maybe I am wrong. But simply stating my thinking is limited is, well, quite limited indeed. And what is the meaning of "weak" and "hard times" in this context? Is trading insults without substance "strong"?

[raven11]

In the last 50 years, on western civil aircraft, how many sudden cases of loss of cabin pressure and subsequent application of 10-20 sec of TUC? Now consider the number of flights where it did not happen. Then consider the total flight time of all flights globally and put it in relation to the total time of a long haul flight with an inexperienced SO alone in the seat.

I think Magenta is not far off, less than one in a billion would be my guess.

You argued that the chances of an explosive decompression are less than a billion to one.

The chance of losing an engine at precisely V1 on a heavy weight take off is infinitely small. Yet, it is the worst case scenario…so regardless of the small chance…we constantly train for the worst case scenario. We don’t not train for it because the chance of it occurring on the line is small.

Do you think it was weak men or strong men that oversaw the development of the 737 Max?

[Meursault]

You argued that the chances of an explosive decompression are less than a billion to one.

The chance of losing an engine at precisely V1 on a heavy weight take off is infinitely small. Yet, it is the worst case scenario…so regardless of the small chance…we constantly train for the worst case scenario. We don’t not train for it because the chance of it occurring on the line is small.

Do you think it was weak men or strong men that oversaw the development of the 737 Max?

Your argument doesn't make sense to me. We do train rapid depress as well, all the time. I also never proposed to stop preparing or training crew for highly improbable events.

And again, what makes me "weak" by arguing with a probality? And what has the 737 to do with it? I have no clue ( and neither have you) what exactly went wrong at Boeing, plus it is completely out of context.

[Good Business Sense]

V for Vendetta

Totally agree.

Just before I retired I had a line SO on a check ride that was completely unaware of the requirement for pressure breathing above 35,000’; he was also adamant that the concept of “Time of Useful Consciousness” regarding the onset of hypoxia in a high altitude decompression was a myth because he could hold his breath for over a minute…..

He was a fully rated P2X line pilot.

As I posted earlier…what could go wrong?

Got me laughing ........ reminds me of the Chief Purser, with probably 20-25 years in post, asking me as we chugged along in the cruise, "Hey Captain, if we depressurised, we'd still have time to gather in the dinners etc before we sat down with a mask, wouldn't we" - absolutely true !

[Good Business Sense]

V for Vendetta

Totally agree.

Just before I retired I had a line SO on a check ride that was completely unaware of the requirement for pressure breathing above 35,000’; he was also adamant that the concept of “Time of Useful Consciousness” regarding the onset of hypoxia in a high altitude decompression was a myth because he could hold his breath for over a minute…..

He was a fully rated P2X line pilot.

As I posted earlier…what could go wrong?

Good grief !

[Good Business Sense]

In the last 50 years, on western civil aircraft, how many sudden cases of loss of cabin pressure and subsequent application of 10-20 sec of TUC? Now consider the number of flights where it did not happen. Then consider the total flight time of all flights globally and put it in relation to the total time of a long haul flight with an inexperienced SO alone in the seat.

I think Magenta is not far off, less than one in a billion would be my guess.

I've had two depressurisations - one, in a wide-body twin, occurred a few seconds after an engine failure at 37,000 feet whilst climbing to 41,000'. So, masks on shutting down an engine and turning to our ETOPS alternate ....... truly, a couple of years later, the scenario had been introduced as a SIM loft and many complained that it just not realistic and it was just wasting training time.

PS aircraft with the auto depress systems have malfunctioned royally in the recent past.

[Good Business Sense]

The odds of an explosive decompression in the cockpit are about 1/billion or even more. If that did happen then you'd have 10 seconds consciousness, BUT you'd probably die from frostbite, as well as your top lips being ripped off and your lungs exploding as 900kph wind hits them, plus you wouldn't be able to see anything anyway.. but a "normal" explosive decompression somewhere on the plane would still take a long time to suck out all the air, so the 10 seconds isn't really accurate and you would have plenty time to don your mask and get the old Captain and Co-Pilot to hurry back into the cockpit for any help you may need...

I'm pretty sure a SO can work out how to descend the plane without ripping the wings off her

you are definitely not a professional pilot flying commercial aircraft - your knowledge is beyond embarrassment

[Good Business Sense]

So you are saying probability doesn't matter? Or that the estimate is wrong? And where is the association to the 737 Max? Or to an engine fail at V1? I am discussing a specific threat in cruise with an SO as sole occupant. If you disagree with the proposed ratio you are welcome to offer an alternative number. Maybe I am wrong. But simply stating my thinking is limited is, well, quite limited indeed. And what is the meaning of "weak" and "hard times" in this context? Is trading insults without substance "strong"?

Actually, your stats were far more accurate than every other stupid comment that you made in your post

[Meursault]

Your argument doesn't make sense to me. We do train rapid depress as well, all the time. I also never proposed to stop preparing or training crew for highly improbable events.

And again, what makes me "weak" by arguing with a probality? And what has the 737 to do with it? I have no clue ( and neither have you) what exactly went wrong at Boeing, plus it is completely out of context.

It seems you did not understand the clear and simple conditions I made and still you talk about knowledge. Nevermind, I had low hopes of an articulate and rational discussion, seems impossible in here. Good day.

[Good Business Sense]

Will an overweight 60ish year old immersed in his Golf magazine be quicker than a 22 year old SO? I would call it a toss-up :-))

not quicker (you are showing your inexperience) but he will do it right

[Fridayflyer]

I agree that the level of experience is reaching a rock bottom but some of you are acting like an explosive decompression is an every day event. And that it will just so happen to happen when the other pilot is in the toilet. And that it will be senior pilot in the toilet. And that the SO will not react. You probably have better odds of a plane crashing due to an asteroid hitting it than the above scenario.

[Stockportcounty]

Not much thread drift here.

Last 20 odd posts are so relevant as to the op’s question. 🙄🙄

[Senior Pilot]

Not much thread drift here.

Last 20 odd posts are so relevant as to the op’s question. 🙄🙄
The OP signed out a minute after starting this thread, and hasn’t returned.

He started an another username to continue Cathay bashing which has been removed along with many posts; work it out yourself! Trolling will never pay off in the long run 🙊🙈