Virgin flight from Manchester to New York cancelled moments before take off

[Peristatos]

Virgin flight from Manchester to New York cancelled moments before take off after passenger notices problem with bolts on wing

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/virgin-flight-manchester-new-york-28472339

[inbalance]

Virgin flight from Manchester to New York cancelled moments before take off after passenger notices problem with bolts on wing
It is perfectly legal to fly with the missing fasteners.

https://www.aviationhunt.com/airbus-a320-missing-fasteners/

[Bayek Itsarumdu]

From the linked article in Manchester Evening News:

"it was discovered the tops of four fasteners were missing from a panel on the wing"
and:
"The missing tops of the fasteners were later replaced" :hmm:

[Abbey Road]

Virgin flight from Manchester to New York cancelled moments before take off after passenger notices problem with bolts on wing

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/virgin-flight-manchester-new-york-28472339

A quote from the article: "The safety of our customers and crew is always our top priority and this was not compromised at any point." This sort of trite, fallacious nonsense trips so easily off the tongue of the automatons answering questions these days. It isn't true or sincere, and only a fool would believe it. It is merely specious 'filler', to take up space and/or fill time when questions are asked. It is enough to make you vomit. 🙄

[ATC Watcher]

At least it is not a Boeing., I can imagine what some journalists would have written if it had been one !

[Planemike]

A quote from the article: "The safety of our customers and crew is always our top priority and this was not compromised at any point." This sort of trite, fallacious nonsense trips so easily off the tongue of the automatons answering questions these days. It isn't true or sincere, and only a fool would believe it. It is merely specious 'filler', to take up space and/or fill time when questions are asked. It is enough to make you vomit. 🙄

Abbey Road.... Thank you for some sensible talk.... Mention safety and security and can get away with anything !!! MJ

[Lonewolf_50]

A330, missing fasteners, aircraft removed from schedule, fasteners replaced, and in the meanwhile, did the fare paying passengers eventually fly to New York in another hull?
I'll give the passenger a tip of the cap for a good preflight. :)

[ST Dog]

It is perfectly legal to fly with the missing fasteners.

https://www.aviationhunt.com/airbus-a320-missing-fasteners/

A few perhaps, but nothing there allows 4 in a row to be missing.

I can't tell that any of the panels at that link match the one in question. They all seem to be fuselage panels not the wing itself.
(or farther down pylon/vertical stab)

[Check Airman]

Horrible thread title

[lefty loose]

It would appear that a Pax looked out of the window and noticed 4 x holes with no fastener heads, possible location Port wing to fuselage fairing panel, rear spar area; this was reported to crew

Later there appears to be a video taken showing a screwdriver engineer on an access ladder who may have been taking out an adjacent fastener and attempting to insert it into one of the unoccupied holes; perhaps attempting to ascertain if there was a serviceable anchor nut below and, also possibly trying to identify the length of fastener required to fill the 4 x unoccupied holes, he/she appears to have been unsuccessful.

Be interested to know if this was a known defect awaiting a maintenance input to repair, or was an unknown defect that this aircraft had been flying around for days/weeks.

A turnaround or daily maintenance inspection is unlikely to have a engineer getting on top of each wing or looking through each window to discover this type of problem and may I suggest that in the grand scheme of things this problem as the Operated stated did not compromise safety.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Horrible thread title


Loose bolts are in the news just now, Probably wouldn't have made the news if it wasn't for the loose nuts in the MAX rudder and plug door.

[Mr Mac]

Back in the early 1960;s a pipe dropped out of the bottom of DC4 outboard engine that I witnessed and the engine subsequently feathered. Even as young child of about 5, I was a window seat lover ! My Mum was next to me who I pointed this out to, who called CC ,who subsequently called F/E who wondered back and said to my Mum apparently “oh I wondered what happened”. These things happen I guess.

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Jhieminga]

Back in the early 1960;s a pipe dropped out of the bottom of DC4 outboard engine that I witnessed and the engine subsequently feathered.
That could have been an exhaust stack. These sometimes crack and fall off and the subsequent stream of exhaust gas ending up on a different trajectory can trigger the overheat warning in that nacelle. Just guesswork on my side though... could have been something else as well.

[DaveReidUK]

also possibly trying to identify the length of fastener required to fill the 4 x unoccupied holes

I sincerely hope that wasn't the case.

BA5390.

[TURIN]

I sincerely hope that wasn't the case.

BA5390.
Indeed, just take out the ones on the other side. 😁

[Mr Mac]

That could have been an exhaust stack. These sometimes crack and fall off and the subsequent stream of exhaust gas ending up on a different trajectory can trigger the overheat warning in that nacelle. Just guesswork on my side though... could have been something else as well.
Jhieminga
Thank you for helping to clear up a child hood memory’s, really much appreciated. I believed it felt much more unnerving at the time for some 🙂

Cheers
Mr Mac

[Bbtengineer]

The fact that they cancelled a flight due pax observation is concerning.

If it’s worth cancelling the flight for, I hope we can agree we don’t want to rely on PAX to identify it.

[megan]

The fact that they cancelled a flight due pax observation is concerningThe more observant the passengers the better and better still if they point it out to the crew.

Air Ontario 1363, F-28 crashed on take off in Canada due ice on wings. Dead heading Captain who observed same thought it improper to tell the operating crew how to go about their job. One passenger raised his concerns with a Flight Attendant who had her own concerns but previous interaction with tech crews prevented her expressing her concerns. 24 fatalities (21 pax 3 crew), 37 of the 45 survivors injured.

Aloha 243, a female pax boarding the aircraft noticed a crack in the fuselage skin near the entrance door, she made no mention of it in the belief that the airline knew what they were doing and that she would have been humoured and regarded with disdain if she made a fuss about it. 90 pax, 5 crew, 65 injured (8 serious), 1 fatality (FA).

[Ancient Mariner]

The fact that they cancelled a flight due pax observation is concerning.

If it’s worth cancelling the flight for, I hope we can agree we don’t want to rely on PAX to identify it.
The fact that they needed a pax to point it out is even more concerning.
Per

[A30yoyo]

Passengers in the BMA 737 which crashed on the M1 at East Midlands knew correctly which side engine had blown but weren't asked........
That Airbus manual on 'allowable' missing fasteners is very worrying ( was it written by a lawyer?)or am I being naive ...don't they use self locking screws oe even some Loctite?!!

[IBMJunkman]

Still confused by this. What was missing? A ‘decorative’ covering that is on top of the actual fastening device that was still in place? Or was the whole fastening device missing?

[Saintsman]

Many moons ago, I was in an office adjacent to the flight line. Out of the corner of my eye, I thought I saw something as an aircraft taxied by, but as I wasn’t really looking, was so quick and I wasn’t sure, I let it go.

I later saw the aircraft return and noticed that the front door handle (it was a Sea King) was protruding. It then occurred to me that had someone leant against the door whilst in flight, it could have possibly opened with disastrous consequences. It still haunts me that I said nothing.

From that point on, if I saw or suspected something , I always alerted someone. It doesn’t matter how insignificant, it’s always better to check. I know that some people can feel foolish if it’s found not to be an issue, but foolish trumps remorse any day.

[A30yoyo]

Looks like 4 countersink head screws* missing....screwing 'blind' ( I.e. no access the other side) into panel nuts or threaded inserts which can become damaged with frequent screwing/ unscrewing)...* perhaps the type with a plastic locking strip incorporated
https://i2-prod.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/incoming/article28472337.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_escenic-4.jpg

[Plastic787]

Had a departure from Jersey (A319) once delayed by a Blue Islands ATR Pilot who announced that we had a hatch open as we taxied past them on stand. Fire Service came out to have a look and after discussion with what they were seeing we determined it was simply the outflow valve in its correct position. Whilst I certainly do advocate people helping out with observations, I really wouldn’t have imagined such an educated person (ie a commercial pilot who really should have some sort of idea what he was looking at) wasting our time and fuel with that one.

[WHBM]

A quote from the article: "The safety of our customers and crew is always our top priority and this was not compromised at any point." This sort of trite, fallacious nonsense trips so easily off the tongue of the automatons answering questions these days. It isn't true or sincere, and only a fool would believe it. It is merely specious 'filler', to take up space and/or fill time when questions are asked. It is enough to make you vomit.
Quite so. However PR departments have discovered that when they say it, news editors always put it in, first, and it fills half the space available for the airline's response. So it's there at the beginning of their press response handbook.

Once written (by a journalist) : "Safety is our first priority" statements generally follow an event which proves that it isn't.

[B Fraser]

Having landed back at Las Vegas from a trip to the Grand Canyon, I noticed liquid dripping from the starboard engine. I spoke quietly to the cabin crew and pointed at the growing puddle, which had now developed a distinct rainbow sheen. "That's condensation" came reply (good effort, well done). Given that the humidity was probably around 30% at best, I suggested that they inform the flight deck that the other engine showed no signs of condensation.

:rolleyes:

[DType]

One dull day at Heathrow I was alarmed to see a hole in the wing, but said nuffin.
After getting above the clouds, I could see the black textured carbon fiber in the "hole" - so just some missing paint.
Glad I said nuffin!

[lefty loose]

Abbey Road.... Thank you for some sensible talk.... Mention safety and security and can get away with anything !!! MJ

Quite so. However PR departments have discovered that when they say it, news editors always put it in, first, and it fills half the space available for the airline's response. So it's there at the beginning of their press response handbook.

Once written (by a journalist) : "Safety is our first priority" statements generally follow an event which proves that it isn't.It would appear that there is some confusion in previous posts regarding aircraft serviceability, fitness for flight and therefore safety relating to sheared/missing screws attaching an aerodynamic closing panel.

I understand Aircraft are legally permitted to fly with known defects using the Aircraft MEL/CDL however these should not be confused with one another

While the MEL describes the limitations of aircraft operation in case of a system being inoperative/having malfunctioned (e.g. Engine, APU, Generator, emergency door slide etc, the CDL deals with situations where external parts of an aircraft are missing/fallen off (e.g. fairings, aerodynamic seals or panels).

Definitions

A minimum equipment list (MEL) is a list which provides for the operation of aircraft, subject to specified conditions, with particular equipment inoperative (which is) prepared by an operator in conformity with, or more restrictive than, the MMEL established for the aircraft type.

A configuration deviation list (CDL) is a list, established by the organisation responsible for the type design with the approval of the State of Design, which identifies any external parts of an aircraft type which may be missing at the commencement of a flight, and which contains, where necessary, any information on associated operating limitations and performance correction.

The CDL is usually prepared by the aircraft manufacturer and is part of the Aircraft Flight Manual (AFM)

The CDL is a listing of regulator-approved non-structural external parts that may be missing but the airplane remains airworthy. To qualify an item onto the CDL, a restrictive set of conditions must be met, e.g.:

• The effect of the missing part upon adjacent structure and systems must be evaluated.
• The effect upon airplane performance must be measured.
• The combined effect upon the aircraft when more than one CDL item is present must be determined (i.e. the effect of a combination of items missing).

I understand a 100% serviceable aircraft may enter heavy maintenance checks for major overhaul and literally hundreds of unknown defects will be recorded within days, ranging from structural cracks, corrosion, delamination, worn and seized bearings, fuel and hydraulic leaks the list is ongoing, however the maintenance intervals and scope of inspections are phased and continual for the life of the airframe/engine to identify and rectify defects before they become critical and may affect flight safety.

Aviation is one of the most regulated industries on the planet and fleets of aircraft worldwide can be grounded within a very short period of time should there be a major concern.

Context is everything

https://www.pprune.org/9136217-post37.html (%22)

[lefty loose]

One dull day at Heathrow I was alarmed to see a hole in the wing, but said nuffin.
After getting above the clouds, I could see the black textured carbon fiber in the "hole" - so just some missing paint.
Glad I said nuffin!

Who do you fly for?

[unmanned_droid]

Passengers in the BMA 737 which crashed on the M1 at East Midlands knew correctly which side engine had blown but weren't asked........
That Airbus manual on 'allowable' missing fasteners is very worrying ( was it written by a lawyer?)or am I being naive ...don't they use self locking screws oe even some Loctite?!!

These fasteners are specified to be removeable. You don't use locking nuts or any kind of locking adhesive. They're all fasteners for removable or non-structural panels so its not a safety of flight issue as long as the rules in the document are observed and adhered to.

[Two's in]

I see the message that 'Flight Safety is everyone's business' has now been consigned to the archives. After all, it's surely far better to ignore an observation and just hope you don't end up in a smoking hole rather than be really embarrassed for something that got overlooked by maintenance or on a pre-flight check.


/That was sarcasm in case, well, you know...

[TURIN]

I see the message that 'Flight Safety is everyone's business' has now been consigned to the archives. After all, it's surely far better to ignore an observation and just hope you don't end up in a smoking hole rather than be really embarrassed for something that got overlooked by maintenance or on a pre-flight check.


/That was sarcasm in case, well, you know...
I've only ever seen one pre flight inspection document that stated an inspection of the top of the wings from the cabin was called for. All the others are an external walk round inspection 'as visible from the ground'. I don't know Virgin Atlantic so I've no idea if there's is the former or latter.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

I've only ever seen one pre flight inspection document that stated an inspection of the top of the wings from the cabin was called for. All the others are an external walk round inspection 'as visible from the ground'. I don't know Virgin Atlantic so I've no idea if there's is the former or latter.


Good point. Maybe after the walk round the pilot could walk up the aisle and check the upper wing surfaces and cabin doors.

[A30yoyo]

I was referring to the type of screw or nut with a locking ( or semi-locking?) insert ( Nyloc?).....though I guess their manufacturers suggest they aren't reused

[TURIN]

I was referring to the type of screw or nut with a locking ( or semi-locking?) insert ( Nyloc?).....though I guess their manufacturers suggest they aren't reused
Most tertiary panels are secured using countersunk bolts (screws with a shank) and screwed into captive nuts as shown in the photo below. The nuts tend to be of the stiffnut style (slightly oval threaded area if you look closely) but they wear over time. Theoretically before a panel is refitted the torque on these bolts and nuts is supposed to be checked and those out of limits replaced. However, on a wet Friday night line operation with half an hour to go before STD let's say this may get overlooked, hence we get situations like this and a few bolts come loose now and again. Of course in an area that's easily accessible and visible it wil get picked up on a walk round but somewhere on the top of the wing is another story.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1143/_20240128_131055_3_2a9c662620a82f3dc844f252924b3a8ae35022f7. jpg

[kghjfg]

Last person to board a twin otter I noticed the door to the fuel cap was open and the fuel cap was hanging down.

I pointed this out to the chap boarding us, and he said “oops” and went to get someone and they put it back on.

It was the manner of the “oops” and the sheepish ops chap that turned up that worried me for the rest of the flight that day.

[Blackfriar]

Why do they have fasteners if not an essential item? and the safety issue would be pretty serious if the panel detached in flight and fell on someone's head.

[TURIN]

Not essential means that with it missing it will not effect flight safety. It may increase fuel burn slightly but that's where the CDL comes in.
Panels coming off in flight is obviously not desired which is why all attempts should be made to mitigate it. Service history tends to highlight problems, over time the preflight and daily inspections have items added to them. EG A320 Inspect the underside of the fuselage around the wing body fairings for loose/missing fasteners.
It is very common. But not necessarily dangerous.

[wrench1]

Why do they have fasteners if not an essential item? .
Technically, its not that they are non-essentials parts. In general, when aircraft are certified and given their original Airworthiness Certificate, they are required to conform with their type design or Type Certificate and in a condition for safe flight which is the definition of airworthy. And once flying those aircraft must continue to meet those same two conditions to maintain their airworthiness.

Years ago it was determined that certain aircraft systems could be inoperative and certain parts could be missing that would not affect the "condition for safe flight" but would affect the "conform to its type certificate." So the aircraft was no longer airworthy and was grounded no matter how minor the issue may be. Enter various CAA regulatory exemptions that would allow an aircraft to remain airworthy with certain systems inop and certain parts missing. These exemptions are further detailed in scope and specifics in other regulatory documents like a Minimum Equipment List (MEL), a Nonessential Equipment and Furnishings list (NEF), or a Configuration Deviation List (CDL) as mentioned above.

Regardless, all exemptions require some sort of review of the situation and an entry and signature to be made in the aircraft record deferring the inop system or missing part in accordance with the appropriate exemption reference. So while all screws are essential for the aircraft design and conformity inspection, not all screws are "essential" for a safe flight. If that makes sense to you. Been this way for eons. And as a bit of trivia, prior to the use of the "CDL" term, these lists were better known in the industry as the "Missing Part List."

[ST Dog]

Why do they have fasteners if not an essential item?

More than the minimum fasteners serve as safety margin. Fasteners can come loose or break.
That extra margin means no single fastener is single point of failure.

Why do most vehicles use 5 lug wheels? 3 are enough under normal conditions. I know of cars that have had missing lug nuts for years.
The extras are there in case one is loose/lost/breaks so it's not an immediate problem.
But that reduces the margin of safety.

[beamer]

The last airline I flew with before retirement encouraged cabin crew to bring matters of concern regarding the aircraft to the pilots - typical example would be traces of ice on the top surface of the wings on a turn-round. Good move in my opinion.

[ginger50]

The fact that they cancelled a flight due pax observation is concerning.

If it’s worth cancelling the flight for, I hope we can agree we don’t want to rely on PAX to identify it.

I would be concerned if SLF were discouraged from making safety observations. I spent a career offshore on ships and helicopters, it was a basic tenet of our HSE culture that you should not assume that the person in charge has spotted all possible hazards, it is everyone's duty to make and report on hazard observations.