Atlas Air 747-8 inflight engine fire

[DIBO]

"MAYDAY, MAYDAY" was declared, so that's already a good point for the crew :8

Atlas Air's Boeing cargo plane makes emergency landing after engine malfunction (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/atlas-air-says-cargo-aircraft-landed-miami-after-engine-malfunction-2024-01-19/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_tV-cVx70g

[TURIN]

I thought this looks like compressor stall and multiple surges at first. Not so sure now. Good job gents.

[DIBO]

they didn't waste any time to get back on the ground, it seems

FR24: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n859gt#33ac35b1
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1148x718/gti95_5y95_89149d17cd7bc3a67f5431b05ff5f332587ff927.jpg

[PENKO]

Looks like a bit more than a simple stall, with bits and pieces falling out of the back!

[Magplug]

With such a short hop to SJU they may well have already been below MLW..... One less thing to think about

[LOWI]

Was 74Gear onboard?

[DIBO]

Not sure about below MLW, "53 tonnes fuel / 5 hours on board" reported by the crew

[747-8driver]

Not sure about below MLW, "53 tonnes fuel / 5 hours on board" reported by the crew
OEW is roughly 195T
MLW 346T so unless they had more than 100T of payload..

[Jhieminga]

https://twitter.com/aviationbrk/status/1748266560853033250
Looks like something worth returning for... No.2 engine causing the crew to return to Miami.

[DIBO]

MLW 346T indeed, I had incorrectly 306T, but that seems to be for the -8I


In the meantime, attached the KMIA Departure comm's for Giant95 filtered out (in .zip as per forum requirements)


Was 74Gear onboard?
Who knows, I've the impression the pilot (on the comm's) is non-native US ... requesting the QNH :)

[Out Of Trim]

Not sure about below MLW, "53 tonnes fuel / 5 hours on board" reported by the crew

listen again… He actually said 5 Souls onboard!

[Saab Dastard]

Already being discussed here: https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/657057-atlas-air-747-8-inflight-engine-fire.html

[IBMJunkman]

My first thought, too. Hopefully he does a video anyway.

Was 74Gear onboard?

[Lomon]

listen again… He actually said 5 Souls onboard!
Wonder how many dead bodies he was carrying as cargo?

[FUMR]

listen again… He actually said 5 Souls onboard!

If my memory is correct he's at one point asked what the fuel on board equates to and there he mentions 5 hours.

[procede]

Looks like they were dispensing flares...

[DIBO]

If my memory is correct he's at one point asked what the fuel on board equates to and there he mentions 5 hours.
indeed, 5 hours was even mentioned twice in the recording:
00:31 about 5 hours of ... fuel on board
00:45 we have 53 tonnes on board
00:50 about 5 hours

[Teddy Robinson]

Well handled, the engineering report regarding cause of this failure will be interesting

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/349997

[Check Airman]

I long for the day when ATC stops distracting crews by asking for hours of fuel. If I’m busy with an emergency, that’s the last thing I’m thinking of.

Surely there’s a table they can be provided that gives them a rough conversion to endurance. Any number I give over the radio is probably going to be an equally rough estimate.

[Pilot DAR]

I long for the day when ATC stops distracting crews by asking for hours of fuel.

For my (happily few) communications with ATC during situations of great pilot stress, I have found that my response to such questions of: "Cannot Comply" usually redirects ATC to not worry about such details. If they really, really have to know, they'll ask again when my stress level is lessened....

[physicus]

I do wonder where this question originates from though - is hours of fuel simply the first box to fill on the ATC incident report form? Or has there been an incident where fuel became a problem?

For any mayday aircraft, getting on the ground ASAP safe and sound is the first priority. ATCs support should probably be aligned with that.

[pattern_is_full]

I long for the day when ATC stops distracting crews by asking for hours of fuel. If I’m busy with an emergency, that’s the last thing I’m thinking of.

Surely there’s a table they can be provided that gives them a rough conversion to endurance. Any number I give over the radio is probably going to be an equally rough estimate.

I always thought the "fuel on board" request after a MAYDAY related to planning the firefighting response at the airport (or elsewhere). Not "endurance" as such.

- What's the worst-case fire we may have to fight?
- What is the worst-case fuel spill that will need to be foamed and/or cleaned up?
- Do we have sufficient resources?
- Do we need to call off-airport fire services NOW for backup?

ATC requests fuel/passenger information primarily so that it can be forwarded to Crash Fire Rescue (CFR) personnel at the airport where an emergency landing might take place. CFR is very anxious to have this information, as it allows them to act on an informed basis regarding:

How many people are to be accounted for
How much (or little) fuel will potentially be spilled, or burning

CFR also has detailed information on equipment types and passenger loads that can predict where passengers will be exiting an aircraft. This allows them to concentrate their fire suppression efforts where they will do the most good.
So if you are involved in an emergency, remember that ATC is asking these questions for a good reason—to be able to provide optimal Crash Fire Rescue assistance following an emergency landing.

Source: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/callback/cb_341.htm#

[Bleve]

I always thought the "fuel on board" request after a MAYDAY related to planning the firefighting response at the airport (or elsewhere).

No problem with that. But a phone call to the airline’s ops centre would get them that information without distracting the pilots.

[mrdeux]

My first thought, too. Hopefully he does a video anyway.
I hope he does too, but if he was on it, then you might have to wait a while, as he won’t be able to say anything until the NTSB are finished.

[mrdeux]

To be honest, I’ve always thought the fuel/endurance question was pointless. It’s a 747. Even at min fuel it will have a few tonnes. Or a lot. If it’s all on fire, it probably doesn’t matter.

[EDLB]

I think that the ATC controller sounded more nervous than the pilot. Endurance and/or fuel on board may become important if the weather is so poor that the flight need to be redirected or saved and ATC need a clue what alternates make sense. However direct after take of at the same airport souls on board should do, so the firecrew has an idea on how may to rescue in the worst case. The pilot asked for altimeter, wind and weather which is the most important for his pattern planning. Good comms from the pilot and a happy ending. On a Mayday aircraft with engine on fire ATC knows that the pilots are busy with checklists and trouble shooting. So questions from ATC should be kept to a minimum. Too much RT can result in distraction and shutting down the wrong engine. We had examples where that ended in pilots swim operations on a twin.

[Peter Fanelli]

I do wonder where this question originates from though - is hours of fuel simply the first box to fill on the ATC incident report form? Or has there been an incident where fuel became a problem?

For any mayday aircraft, getting on the ground ASAP safe and sound is the first priority. ATCs support should probably be aligned with that.

Google Avianca flight 52.

[Good Business Sense]

No problem with that. But a phone call to the airline’s ops centre would get them that information without distracting the pilots.

Also one minute of perusing a flight plan will enable people to work the fuel remaining out

[Good Business Sense]

I think DGs can be the biggest problem at times

[Good Business Sense]

Totally agree - n.b. the way Jet fuel explodes and burns.

[Good Business Sense]

Absolutely correct - often it's like a 40 question form gets pulled out. Having been polite during a major event I had to tell a controller to shut up, "Standby, I'll advise, I'm busy" and he still went on. Sorry but, with respect, on most occasions there is almost nothing he/she can do to help. That's why a maday call helps so much ie you tell them politely what you are doing, you do not request permission - my comments are from world wide experience and of course don't apply to many, many controllers. Listen to the incredible ATC transcript of the 777 Heathrow crash from a few years ago - magnificent management by the controller. Just perfect.

[Uplinker]

Also one minute of perusing a flight plan will enable people to work the fuel remaining out

Unless the Mayday has dumped or leaked fuel.......

ATC might not have that info on their 'strip' and not have time to pull up the full flight plan. Also they will be busy themselves diverting other aircraft around the Mayday flight amongst other things.

Wouldn't take PM very long to read out total fuel on board to ATC when they have a moment. Or if not; then "stand by" until they do.

[pattern_is_full]

C'mon, guys!

ATC is asking for your FOB so they have an idea of just how large an "improvised explosive device" you are now flying - should the worst happen.

Unless the MAYDAY is specifically a fuel emergency, ATC has no interest at all in your "endurance" - they assume that both you and they want you safely on the ground ASAP.

Commercial jets with a dispatch office are not the only aircraft in the sky. It is a standard question asked of all MAYDAY aircraft - from a C172 to a King Air to a Citation to an A380. With or without dispatch, possibly even without a filed flight plan.

It is certainly not the highest priority question, and in an ideal world, a controller will always append " ,when able" when asking for FOB and SOB. They understand (or should) "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate - in that order." But it is part of their job to ask.
..........

On a more apropos note, reports of a "softball-sized" (~15cm) hole found in the wing above the failed engine.

[EDLB]

I think it is a bit more sensible. In normal operation RT with ATC has a high priority, because any failure will easy get you in more trouble then other errors.
In a Mayday emergency you have all hands and both brains full working to deal with the emergency. If you are additional forced to control the controller a lot of attention is redirected.
There is no need that ATC second guesses your fuel situation or other things if it will have no bearing to the outcome.
You are in a maximum stress situation, so aviate, navigate and trouble shoot will have priority to communicate. If you need help from ATC you will always ask.

[physicus]

Google Avianca flight 52.

AFAIK, that one resulted in the mayday fuel terminology, along with the syllabus I was part of in the 1990s that made it clear that as PIC you are to use the words mayday mayday mayday in an emergency situation. It is then incumbent on ATC to get me on the ground with minimum track miles, minimum distractions, and moving everybody else out of the way. I don't think it is (or should be) ATCs job to determine how long they can keep me in the air...

The actual amount of fuel is irrelevant for the firefighting response. My aircraft type determines the level of crash response required at the airport, and that category is determined based on many other factors, not just fuel capacity. See https://skybrary.aero/articles/rescue-and-fire-fighting-services

[C2H5OH]

C'mon, guys!

ATC is asking for your FOB so they have an idea of just how large an "improvised explosive device" you are now flying - should the worst happen.


I've often wondered and I'm genuinely interested to learn from someone with inside knowledge if it does make a difference if such a fuel bomb has 15 or 50 tons of FOB.
My educated guess is that other boundary conditions of that impact site have a far greater influence on the outcome and the number of trucks being rolled is not dependent on FOB.

[Good Business Sense]

Unless the Mayday has dumped or leaked fuel.......

ATC might not have that info on their 'strip' and not have time to pull up the full flight plan. Also they will be busy themselves diverting other aircraft around the Mayday flight amongst other things.

Wouldn't take PM very long to read out total fuel on board to ATC when they have a moment. Or if not; then "stand by" until they do.

Fair point, however, my thoughts are that distractions are by far the biggest danger in those emergency situations and to interrupt the crew's focus as they run multiple checklists for a FOB readout, which hopefully the actions of the crew will avoid becoming of value, is not ideal. For example, the findings in the BMI 737 at EMA report.

I think sometimes it's a big alligator you're wrestling and you just don't need the interruptions unless it will significantly assist you. In the example I mentioned, an engine blew climbing through 37,000 and we simultaneously depressurised rapidly so, with masks on, we were doing an engine shutdown checklist (and a few others - it was complex) whilst actioning a rapid depressurisation profile as we diverted on an ETOPS sector on the A330 which I'm sure you know well. It was also my line check with the Chief Pilot on the jump seat :-) Also had another, a fire this time, on the 330 in the climb high level which looked identical to the video of the Atlas but at night ......... less fraught than the first one so our ATC exchange was similar and it was also in a first world ATC environment.

Rgds

[20driver]

Something to remember is ATC is not just dealing with commercial traffic. Post # 22 provides a very good explanation of why these questions are asked. I had an emergency once in my little bug smasher, 5 on board + dog and maybe 60 gallons. Alternator failed and I was losing electric power. At the time I was on with NY Approach a few miles from Teterboro- so they had to deal with me along with all the other GA , business and heavies a few thousand feet above me. There was no dispatch for them to call, there was a flight plan on file. NJ in that area is quite rural and if I went off airport I can see why they would want to have that info for the local EMS. It was a solid VMC day, I had a handheld and motored back to home for a no flap landing.
NYC Approach as usual were great and followed me back home. Including a phone call when I was on the ground to make sure all was good.
I have listened to a few emergencies on the frequency and the controllers are alway deferential to the pilots. I've heard "later" at least once.
There really seems to be a thing on here with picking at American ATC. I flew my little machine around the NYC airspace for 8 years and always received amazing service.

[megan]

From the FAA AIM Emergency Procedures 6-3-2-3

If distress, MAYDAY (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg_html/glossary-m.html#$MAYDAY), MAYDAY (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg_html/glossary-m.html#$MAYDAY), MAY-DAY; if urgency, PAN-PAN (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg_html/glossary-p.html#$PAN-PAN), PAN-PAN (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg_html/glossary-p.html#$PAN-PAN), PAN-PAN (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/pcg_html/glossary-p.html#$PAN-PAN).
Name of station addressed.
Aircraft identification and type.
Nature of distress or urgency.
Weather.
Pilots intentions and request.
Present position, and heading; or if lost, last known position, time, and heading since that position.
Altitude or flight level.
Fuel remaining in minutes.
Number of people on board.
Any other useful information.


https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap6_section_3.html

[Maninthebar]

So that implies that the question is not around how much firefighting there might be, but how long before landing MUST happen, which makes sense.

[100Series]

Many years ago,ex SIN, I was PF and ATC liasion on our 747 while my gallant Captain and Engineer worked out how to get us down without the inboard flaps falling off, making the A/C unflyable.
The radar controller obviously had his form to fill in and all went well till he asked our edurance.
"At this time 6 hours 30 minutes but as we are dumping, in 30 minutes it will be 1 hour!"
It all went a bit quiet after that.

[jumpseater]

So that implies that the question is not around how much firefighting there might be, but how long before landing MUST happen, which makes sense.

Correct. One of the first things ATC are considering is which is the nearest available airfield, and which is the nearest suitable airfield, not always the same thing and which airfields to potentially offer as divert options. Another factor is if the aircraft then has a radio failure, they have a rough idea of how long it can remain airborne, which airfields it may divert to.