Finally some truth on the subject by the press

[VforVENDETTA]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-16/air-travel-cathay-pacific-is-learning-a-hard-lesson-on-pilots&ved=2ahUKEwjD84LQoOSDAxUWSDABHdQBD00QxfQBKAB6BAgMEAI&usg=AOvVaw2VUkcAqCjZGsp2avzX_9Hb

[T28B]

For those of you who would like to read the article:
Air Travel: Cathay Pacific Is Learning a Hard Lesson on Pilots - Bloomberg (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-01-16/air-travel-cathay-pacific-is-learning-a-hard-lesson-on-pilots)

By Tim Culpan (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/authors/AOZ1cdFX8mo/tim-culpan) | Tim Culpan is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist covering technology in Asia. Previously, he was a technology reporter for Bloomberg News

Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. is facing a crisis of its own making. While the problems started in 2020 at the height of the Covid pandemic, the current drama of cancelled flights and a rush to rewrite the airline’s operational handbook was foreseeable, and preventable.

The first sign of danger came in December, when hundreds of flights were cancelled over the Christmas-New Year period due to a shortage of pilots. The airline blamed a higher-than-normal rate (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-31/cathay-says-pilot-flying-hour-caps-illness-led-to-flight-cuts) of illness. Cathay then scrapped around a dozen flights per day through the end of February — including the peak Lunar New Year period. The bigger problem, as Bloomberg News reported (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-31/cathay-says-pilot-flying-hour-caps-illness-led-to-flight-cuts), is that many pilots have hit their 900-hour cap. In order to limit fatigue, international regulation limit pilots to flying no more than 900 hours in any rolling 12-month period.
There is a bit more, but that's how it starts.

[WhatShortage]

As said on another threat, they deserve what they get. Even a 50% increase on what they have now wouldn't even put it close to any other ME carrier. If I want to be treated like an animal, at least give me a golden cage. They seem to forget that we notice that their golden cage is actually "stick and stones".

[VforVENDETTA]

Thanks Admin for fixing it.

Here's the rest of the article:

Cathay had been warned. In June, the pilots union said a return to the pre-pandemic level of flights wouldn’t be possible until the carrier filled an existing gap of around 1,400 experienced pilots. By August, the total flights Cathay was operating had exceeded the number of captains required to fly them — an early indicator of what eventually ensued in December. According to the union, Cathay had around one-third the number of pilots in August that it employed at the end of 2019, just before the pandemic struck.

Every airline in the world was impacted by Covid. As borders shut, flights dried up and aircraft were parked in deserts. There was nothing for pilots to do. Many were fired. Cathay closed its regional carrier, Cathay Dragon, in October 2020 and cut hundreds of pilots. All up, it reduced headcount by 8,500, or 24% of staff, across the broader Cathay group, the company announced.

It then rewrote pilot contracts with a simple ultimatum: Take the new deal or leave. With no other jobs available, over 2,600 pilots signed. Permanent cuts were made to base salaries, pension contributions and an education allowance, the Hong Kong Free Press wrote.

Singapore Airlines Ltd. also made large-scale retrenchments, equal to about 20% of headcount. But with the help of the government, it redeployed many workers to healthcare roles and later reversed wage cuts implemented during the pandemic. As a result, staffing at Singapore Air and its affiliate Silk Air at the end of its fiscal year ending March 2023 was just 7% below the same period in 2019. It’s on track to hire 2,800 more crew by the end of March.

Even before the pandemic, Cathay’s situation was murky. Once a proud symbol of the former British colony, its return to profit in 2018 after back-to-back losses was overshadowed by pro-democracy protests the following year. Rather than help the airline cope with a drop in passengers during those months, Beijing summoned the head of Cathay’s key shareholder — the Swire Group — and demanded rectification after some staff were seen siding with protestors. While the airline did get a bailout from the government, the lack of trust seemed to escalate during Covid, including strict quarantine requirements for crew.

Airlines are all competing for pilots, but Cathay is looking desperate. Last week, the company updated its operational handbook to allow pilots to apply for promotion to captain after just 3,000 flight hours, instead of the previous 4,000. Aviators climb through the ranks by logging hours and flights, and becoming captain is the pinnacle. This adjustment appears aimed at luring pilots to the airline, or to keep them there, by making promotion easier. It also ensures the operator can keep flying. We shouldn’t assume that lowering the benchmark for promotion is less safe, but it is important to note the timing of such a move: when Cathay is short of captains.

Cathay’s actions over the past few years — even preceding Covid — make it look like an airline that’s not particularly pilot friendly. For example, its 2018 contract cut pay by around 40% and was cited by the company as a reason for its high rate of crew exodus.

Airlines knew that a pilot shortage was coming. Back in 2013, Boeing Co. forecast the global aviation industry would need to hire 498,000 new pilots over the coming decade. More than 192,000, or 39%, would be needed in the Asia-Pacific region. A year later, it bumped up that estimate by 7% to 533,000. It would raise that forecast again in subsequent years, and in the 2018 outlook — the year Cathay cut pay and benefits for pilots — Boeing noted that “the pilot labor supply has continued to tighten amid strong global air traffic growth.”

Despite clear evidence that pilots were hard to come by, and knowing that it could not operate without them, Cathay Pacific’s management approach has been to make the airline less and less attractive to cockpit crew. Recent one-time bonuses and a reduction in promotion thresholds are mere Bandaids to the more systemic problems it unleashed upon itself.

If Cathay wants to keep flying uninterrupted schedules, and expand its operations, then the first step will be to recognize the importance of the pilots who keep the airline in the skies.

[Arrowhead]

https://archive.ph/x43Iu

full article

[joblow]

Absolutely brilliant article that for once is honest hard hitting and gets right to the heart of the issue , Cathay has a terrible management style starting with the DFO and working its way up to the top . Now they are reaping the poisonous fruit of their labours

[KABOY]

Absolutely brilliant article that for once is honest hard hitting and gets right to the heart of the issue , Cathay has a terrible management style starting with the DFO and working its way up to the top . Now they are reaping the poisonous fruit of their labours

The problem is ‘the architect’ (Hughes) is back and he will continue his swirely ways.The ringmaster(Healy) is also there playing his hengdi for the overlords back in London.


These are the men that implemented COS18 and sat in the mahjong rooms during COVID implementing the mass redundancies of the pilot group.

[Will IB Fayed]

Love to see a comparison of similar airlines, and their pre-pandemic flying levels compared to today. Presumably CX would be near the bottom?
Good article.

[airdualbleedfault]

The problem is ‘the architect’ (Hughes) is back and he will continue his swirely ways.The ringmaster(Healy) is also there playing his hengdi for the overlords back in London.


These are the men that implemented COS18 and sat in the mahjong rooms during COVID implementing the mass redundancies of the pilot group.

Healey, now there's a name I haven't heard for a while, he is going to be one of the main characters in my book "cnuts I have known in Aviation"

[CISTRS]

Healey, now there's a name I haven't heard for a while, he is going to be one of the main characters in my book "cnuts I have known in Aviation"

Chair of Cathay Pacific since 6th November 2019.
Timing's perfect.

[KABOY]

Here he is talking it up.

I think Ronald might be the puppet and fall guy in all of this,

The masters in PEK won’t let a gweilo sit at the top so we have a new structure in place. Patrick the puppeteer.

https://youtu.be/beqyxO5pkC0

[positionalpor]

Pilots were leaving CX even pre Covid. Place is toxic. Were trying to close bases since 2010.
evil idiots

[Big Pistons Forever]

“How did you go bankrupt?” Bill asked. “Two ways,” Mike said. “Gradually and then suddenly.” That's from Ernest Hemingway, in his 1926 breakthrough novel, The Sun Also Rises.

[smogluver]

There is no way they are at 70 percent looking at the services to all the ports around the world. I think they are skewing their statistics and not including the flights Dragonair was doing as a seperate entity. Cx are now operating the A320 to China which they never did pre covid and now using those numbers to lie about the truth about exactly what capacity they are at. They have deliberately killed the golden goose by destroying their employees contracts, all the trainers run around telling everyone how much money they earn however they are simply emperors of a pile of dirt. The company is not expanding and experience levels are dropping. That’s what happens when you fxxxk with contracts and seniority.

[cygnet78]

Bye Bye "Gwei lo"s

[Oasis]

Hello mainland spies! And russians, probably.

[PNM]

What a delusional idiot.

[Oasis]

What a delusional idiot.
I know, right?

[krismiler]

The expertise that went out the door will take many years to build back up again. It was understandable that at the height of the pandemic everyone was wondering if the world would ever be the same again but if there was any chance of recovery, key personnel such as pilots needed to be kept on.

SQ coped remarkably well by retaining nearly everyone and keeping them current, when borders opened they were able to ramp up quickly and are now back to almost pre Covid capacity. Strong government backing obviously helped.

Most of the worldwide core pilot body is back at work however those who took early retirement or left flying altogether need to be replaced and much abinitio training was delayed. Pilots may harbour resentment against a company which laid them off and be reluctant to return if they have another option.

The Middle East is recruiting again with a better package on offer than most competitors. I’m actually wondering how many pilots my company is going to lose over the next year.

[Meursault]

One would have to compare the past and future costs for retaining staff and the old contract to the costs of cancelations in order to make a substantial conclusion.

Additionally, let's not forget it was totally unclear when HK would open up again. Cathay was bleeding money and was at the mercy of the by far strictest Covid rules worldwide.

[VforVENDETTA]

Here we go with the "let's not forget it was really bad...".

Yes it was. It was very bleak. HK had lost its mind, they went crazy and they are still paying the price for the damage they did to themselves.

But it the contracts cathay canceled overnight, without any discussions with pilots, in fact refusing the many pleas from the only representative body for the pilots, included provisions for such unforseen events. It was called "first in, last out". A furlough provision. It was there for decades. For exactly such circumstances. Cathay did not follow the contract when the time came.
instead they canceled the contract and cut everyone's pay and benefits by 50% , permanently.

No discussions about consessions temporarily until things improve. No. Your pay and benefits are cut in half. Sign or be fired in 2 weeks.

Don't give me the BS about how But everyone's jobs were saved...". No. We all ended up with half of our jobs left, not our jobs, 1/2 our jobs each individually. Nobody kept their job at cathay. They kept half of it.

Furlough is what airlines do at times like this. And when they need you back, they recall you. If you're still interested, you're put back to work at the same pay and position you were before. We had a first in last out in our contracts. Cathay decided to show the contracts we were working under for decades were not worth the toilet paper they were signed on.

What they did was far more egregious than furlough. A furlough would have been understood and we would have come back when possible. There wouldn't be such a mass exodus of experience to continue permanently.

i would have come back from a furlough, gladly and without any hard feelings towards cathay for laying me off. This is afterall how its always been done at airlines and if I didn't know at least this much about the industry I work in from my first day, I'd truly be a moron.

Instead l left without a single day of notice. Because a job with Cathay was lowered to garbage level, due solely to what cathay itself had done.

In comparison, in the last 2 decades cathay had many pilots who were on furlough while working for cathay. Some for close to 10 years. But when their previous airline called them back, they left cathay and went back.

cathay pilots laugh out loud and cuss at the suggestion of going back to cathay. Very few would do it.

So yes things were bad. But what cathay did was not the proper response. It was taking advantage and not letting a crisis go unused. They miscalculated very badly due to their own Incompetence and are paying the price for it badly..it's very well deserved and they should pay much greater consequences.

[raven11]

Well said VforV.

Management flaws can have a big impact on a company. In the case of Cathay, their unethical labour relations and managerial misconduct have led to the massive decline of this once great company. A cautionary tale of a management that will look after the needs of themselves without considering the needs of the other people around them. A few minutes spent on this forum would be all the time needed to reveal unflattering terms as malicious, abusive, vicious, and toxic.

It had become clear to anyone who bothered to look that Cathay hated their pilots. To them, it seemed that the airline would run so smoothly if not for those pesky ingrates. But even in Hong Kong where labour laws protecting employees from unscrupulous management were scant they still felt shackled. Covid was a gift from above. It gave them the opportunity to attack pilots employment contracts without fear of push back from either the government or the pilot association.

So without any concern for future Company performance post Covid, the mask of a caring employer was cast aside and they unleashed their rath.Thus sealing their reputation as an unscrupulous employer amongst professional pilots world wide.

So today, as better managed companies around the world are thriving in the post Covid recovery, Cathay find themselves desperately in need of experienced pilots to fly their parked airplanes. But given the reputation they’ve rightfully earned, no first world pilot of repute will even consider them as an employer. A inept management are reaping what they’ve sowed and a once mighty legacy airline has been brought to its knees.

Only a complete and total management shake up from the top down might possibly rescue the business. The alternative would be to wither on the vine.

[Asturias56]

"A few minutes spent on this forum would be all the time needed to reveal unflattering terms as malicious, abusive, vicious, and toxic."

Try the Qantas thread for REAL venom

[Babyjet_dododo]

"A few minutes spent on this forum would be all the time needed to reveal unflattering terms as malicious, abusive, vicious, and toxic."

Try the Qantas thread for REAL venom

Just like QF, it all starts from a very toxic top heavy management, out for blood with all front line staff. QF screwed over baggage handlers, engineers, cabin crew and pilots.

Even the shareholders can’t stand the board of directors. Lucky for CX the voting power lies with Swire, so they can install whichever puppet they want.

[krismiler]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-24/cathay-pacific-raises-pilots-school-fee-allowance-pledges-no-pay-cuts

[LootedfromCPA]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-24/cathay-pacific-raises-pilots-school-fee-allowance-pledges-no-pay-cuts
It seems like this is all they are willing to give. They still refuse to give back cos08 and not even an industry leading contract that will put a stop the current exodus. Okay still delusional! Further losses to come for the swire puppets 👍

[cygnet78]

I guess the leaving numbers not significant. Please leave faster. hahahahaha

[veryoldchinahand]

By: Danny Lee | Jan 24 2024 at 08:45 AM |

Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd. raised the allowance it gives to pilots to cover their kids’ school fees by 50% and locked in pay benchmarks for two years as it tackles a chronic shortage of aircrew that’s led to mass flight cancellations.

Hong Kong’s biggest airline will increase its school-fee cap 50% to HK$150,000 ($19,180) for each eligible child between 11 and 18 years’ old, according to a memo seen by Bloomberg News. Other incentives include a pledge to keep a metric of hours flown that’s tied to take-home pay the same through the end of 2025, essentially averting pay cuts.

[VforVENDETTA]

What idiots are these? So you keep the pay what it is now, and you will keep the same retention problem. Do you think your problem is solved at this pay rate?

They promise not to cut pay any further for the next 2 years! Really? This is comedic on o many levels.

As in there has been until now a possibility of even lower pay than whe rare that has gotten cathay into such a **** deadend? Now everyone can rest easy cathay wont go even further?! Oh what a relief!!! And who in the right mind would accept cathay's word on anything ever again? They’ve proven beyond belief their word is ****.

The education allowance is still going to be far less than pre-cos18. And it doesn't mean anything to anyone who doesn't have kids in school in hk. It only affects some people.

There's really nothing cathay management can do to solve this pilot shortage problem. They lost all credibility when they canceled contracts overnight. The entire pilot body has been and always will be working under no contract . This is made clear in the first paragraph of cos18.

Even if cathay were to again claim to have a binding contract, their word is sh!t for eternity so it wouldn't change anything. It could temporarily fix the problem if cathay paid at a premium above and beyond what they paid before to fool people to take the risk of working for them while other less paying but stable employment is available to them. But even that wouldn't solve the issue in longer term.

Maybe if hk government stepped in and placed a legally binding contract in place taking it out of cathay's hands to be able to flush it down the toilet like before. But does hk government and ots legal system have any credibility for this?

Remember there is nothing in hk law that prevents a company to summarily cancel your employment contact at a moment's notice. Like cathay did to us. Will they pass legislation to prevent these situations from being so easy to cause by consequential employers in hk such as cathay? Hong kong's recovery is now fukked because of the situation cathay has caused for itself because they had too much rope to hang themselves and they did it. Thats a serious consequence. If hk government didn't want to be in this situation, they shouldn't have allowed it to happen. They're just as implicit and indeed deserving of it all.

Will they pass legislation to prevent this to happen again? I doubt they're smart enough?

Popcorn...

[veryoldchinahand]

"The education allowance is still going to be far less than pre-cos18"...... Not exactly VfV in fact in many cases it is more now than previously paid
Many pilots families have for years attended AIS (Australian international School -HK) where I have paid school fees for the past 20 years - the annual fees are well under the rate being paid even for the senior school.

[BuzzBox]

...the annual fees are well under the rate being paid even for the senior school.

Bull:mad:. The 2024 tuition fees for primary and secondary students at AIS are in the range $164,700 to $239,600 p.a., not including the capital levy. That's not "well under the rate being paid even for the senior school" by any stretch of the imagination.

AIS - 2024 Tuition Fees (https://www.aishk.edu.hk/admissions/tuition-and-fees)

[cxflog]

"The education allowance is still going to be far less than pre-cos18"...... Not exactly VfV in fact in many cases it is more now than previously paid
Many pilots families have for years attended AIS (Australian international School -HK) where I have paid school fees for the past 20 years - the annual fees are well under the rate being paid even for the senior school.
You’re not even a pilot so why keep posting here?

[Fac6]

You’re not even a pilot so why keep posting here?
True :D:)

[ToCatLady]

The skippers at my new airline ask where I’ve come from and as soon as they hear it’s CX they almost look on me in pity! Every single one of them comments about how far the airline has fallen and what a shame it all is.

I am very grateful for the time I spent at CX, their training is top notch and they got me into a position where my family and I are now extremely happy and looked after by a national carrier. Thank you CX!

All the flag carriers around the world can’t believe their luck that there are so many experienced CX drivers “coming home”

I would always recommend CX now as a great place to get trained up and move on.

[joblow]

If you have Airbus experience there are direct entry commands available on the A380 at emirates , or B777 if you prefer . The salary isn’t fantastic but it’s tax free

[veryoldchinahand]

Bull:mad:. The 2024 tuition fees for primary and secondary students at AIS are in the range $164,700 to $239,600 p.a., not including the capital levy. That's not "well under the rate being paid even for the senior school" by any stretch of the imagination.

AIS - 2024 Tuition Fees (https://www.aishk.edu.hk/admissions/tuition-and-fees)
Not correct -I have the invoices for both son and grandson -in 20 years we have never been asked for any capital levy

From AIS web site
2023–2024 AIS Tuition Fee Annual Fee 2024
Early Childhood 2 – Grade 1 Junior HK$137,800
Grade 1 – Grade 4 HK$139,000 HK$34,750
Grade 5 – Grade 8 HK$149,400

[KAPAC]

The payment of the Capital Levy is offered as an alternative option to the Depreciating Debenture. The capital levy must be paid on acceptance of being offered a place. The levy amount is reviewed each year and is currently HK$21,840 per student per annum. The capital levy is payable annually at the beginning of each school year.

[BuzzBox]

Not correct -I have the invoices for both son and grandson -in 20 years we have never been asked for any capital levy

From AIS web site
2023–2024 AIS Tuition Fee Annual Fee 2024
Early Childhood 2 – Grade 1 Junior HK$137,800
Grade 1 – Grade 4 HK$139,000 HK$34,750
Grade 5 – Grade 8 HK$149,400

The fees you quoted are for the AMERICAN International School. The fees I quoted are for the AUSTRALIAN International School, the school where you claimed to have paid fees for the past 20 years. So which school did you actually mean?

As mentioned above by KAPAC, at the Australian school there is a choice of paying either a debenture (currently $120,000 per student, renewable every eight years), or an annual capital levy (currently $21,840 per student), in addition to the annual tuition fees. An annual capital levy is also payable at the American school.

In any case, you previously said "the annual fees are well under the rate being paid even for the senior school". That claim is still bull:mad:, no matter which school you meant to say. The 2023-24 tuition fee for Grades 9-12 at the American school is $164,000. That's not "well under the rate being paid". Would you care to explain why you excluded those fees in the figures you quoted?

[Meursault]

Plus any payment from the employer is taxable, let's not forget that. So the 150 are really only 127.

[main_dog]

The new education allowance is definitely an improvement, now comparable to the pre-covid CEA (a slight improvement if your secondary school child’s annual tuition fee is around the 150k mark, though not as good as it was if in a more expensive school like HKIS or CIS).

This improvement only affects a small part of the pilot population however (with kids 11-18), and doesn’t really address the elephant in the room: the overall Cos18 package is still dramatically inferior to precovid Cos99/08. Basic pay is down 40%, PF is down 60% when flying below threshold, and housing assistance is gone. In addition it is all mere policy, amendable at a whim.

The assurances that thresholds will not be adjusted upwards (and even that only until end next year) is actually just a promise of no further pay cuts in the near future. This is clearly not enough if they want to attract experienced crew, not to mention retain them.

[magenta magnet]

Pilots jumping up and down in HK about not getting free schooling, whilst I'm sitting here flying for a main carrier who most certainly does not pay for any schooling.
The problem with getting a great deal long ago is that now everyone wants it and that is their norm, when unfortunately that is not reality.
And then to moan about getting paid for 3 years on covid whilst the majority of us were either let go or furloughed. Sure we're back and am only just starting to get our old pre covid salaries and some more, but those lost years of earnings would take 20 years to recoup even if our current airline paid 30% more per month.

How much more are you paying per month now compared to what you were paying in 2019?

What other carriers in Europe or America offer their staff free schooling for their children?

[Meursault]

Isn't it obvious? Schools are free in Europe and the US. Local state schools are not an option in Hong Kong.

Agree on the Covid pay, although be aware pay was reduced significantly for most ( up to zero for KA).

[VforVENDETTA]

Pilots jumping up and down in HK about not getting free schooling, whilst I'm sitting here flying for a main carrier who most certainly does not pay for any schooling.
The problem with getting a great deal long ago is that now everyone wants it and that is their norm, when unfortunately that is not reality.
And then to moan about getting paid for 3 years on covid whilst the majority of us were either let go or furloughed. Sure we're back and am only just starting to get our old pre covid salaries and some more, but those lost years of earnings would take 20 years to recoup even if our current airline paid 30% more per month.

How much more are you paying per month now compared to what you were paying in 2019?

What other carriers in Europe or America offer their staff free schooling for their children?

You're out of touch with the subject.

Carriers in Europe and America don't pay children's education allowance because there you're not an expat. Its your home country. Your children go to the local school anyway. Living abroad especially a place like hong kong, a European or American can't simply send their kids to a local school. They don't want to. International schools are private and expensive. Considering the cost if not offset by the employer, they just wouldn't take the job and the employer would be turned down. This is why this allowance has been historically paid in hk.

When you say moan about getting paid for 3 years of covid, make sure you say getting half paid. There's a big difference. One includes being declared bankrupt. A common thing among those who are still there. To this day its still the same. Not recovering to pre-covid, like in your situation by your own admission.

A great deal as you put it a long ago was what was necessary to get quality pilots to take the job in hk. Not because cathay was such a nice pilot loving outfit.

The reality is as cathay is learning the very hard way, what was necessary back then didn't suddenly change. They were delusional and now they are canceling 12 flights a day with no end in sight. This is the reality.

[cygnet78]

Why dont go back to America, Europe and Australia ?

[gipilot]

I think this whole Cx short of experienced crew ordeal is a little blown out of proportion. Sure, I understand that there is somewhat of a shortage but I think it has more to do with lack of training slots and/or trainers than shortage of pilots.

Last year a mate of mine was offered a chance to return under this new COS but he would have to start at the bottom of the list(he was fired during covid after serving 13 years) and he would not be eligible for command for at least 3 years. So they were so obsessed with humiliating him on his return to Cathay obviously he declined the contract. Last week he was in contact with talent acquisition and they told him that Cx is not planning on recruiting any ex Cx pilots, their focus is solely on new DEFO’s and SO’s.

So I think management is not too worried about how things are at the moment, I think they’re more focused on keeping people and avoiding congesting the training slots.

[Progress Wanchai]

Why dont go back to America, Europe and Australia ?

They are. That’s the very problem.

The CX HR team is bringing in new recruits at record rates and the C&T team is at breaking point training them, but 6 out of every 10 of these recruits are simply to replace someone who is walking out the door. So recruitment is at a record high but expansion is close to a record low.

Management achieved their stated 2023 goals by picking the low hanging fruit. Reactivated grounded crew, rehired ex CX/KA crew and pushed many pilots to 100+ hours a month until inevitably they hit annual limits. In 2024 there’s no more grounded crew, few crew returning and anyone on annual limits now only able to do 75 hours a month.

It’s always been the mystery. How will cx expand at triple the rate they currently are in order to meet their 2024 goals? The easiest way would be to significantly reduce the attrition such that 10 out of 10 recruits are used for expansion. But are they prepared to pay that cost? Or does their ideology on what constitutes a competitive pilot package trump the promises they’ve made to the stock market, the government and the people of Hong Kong?

[VforVENDETTA]

Why dont go back to America, Europe and Australia ?
Why don't pay attention? That's exactly what so many are doing. That's why cathay is canceling 12 flights every day.

[Piet Lood]

Pilots jumping up and down in HK about not getting free schooling, whilst I'm sitting here flying for a main carrier who most certainly does not pay for any schooling.
The problem with getting a great deal long ago is that now everyone wants it and that is their norm, when unfortunately that is not reality.
And then to moan about getting paid for 3 years on covid whilst the majority of us were either let go or furloughed. Sure we're back and am only just starting to get our old pre covid salaries and some more, but those lost years of earnings would take 20 years to recoup even if our current airline paid 30% more per month.

How much more are you paying per month now compared to what you were paying in 2019?

What other carriers in Europe or America offer their staff free schooling for their children?

And THAT defeatist attitude is the exact reason the abundantly rich are getting overabundantly rich and the middle class is disappearing.

If the Swires wanted they could re-install CoS 08 yesterday.
Hell, they could re-install CoS 96/A scale yesterday.
But why do that if you have thousands of you willing to fly for peanuts.

Good on the guys who looked at the offer, laughed and threw it back in their faces and hence remained the little bit of dignity that is still left in this sick industry.

[Gnadenburg]

Yeah hilarious the attitude and stupidity of some pilots.

The benefits for expats in many quarters hasn’t dried up in Hong Kong. I’m in HKG now hosting high end events at a number of the Clubs. Some of the gossip coming direct and second hand from the financial community and leaders of industry, reflects an almost banality and indifference in attitude of the leadership that created the CX pilot shortage. And it’s only the shortage apparent now to the public, not the actual loss of professional talent and experience.

Unbelievably one of prominent protagonists of the current COS who was retired, stating they be lucky to reach 75% of pre-COVID capacity this year, 80% sometime in 2025 and there’s a chance full recovery won’t happen! I’m not sure if KA included in pre-COVID Group capacity and if it isn’t how damning!

[Meursault]

Piet Loot and Gnadenburg, if I left today I would have to work for another employer and end up with (maybe) half what I earn today, most probably rather a third really. I also would have less days off, most likely work a LCC roster, and very likely I would still not live where I want most. My children would have to leave a school they love, lose their friends, lose the helper they grew up with and are very close to. My wife would either lose her income or work for considerable less.
Does my decision not to leave, for the above reasons, make me lose my dignity or make me stupid or "defeatist" in your eyes? And how do you justify accepting an inferior LCC package that undermines local legacy carriers as more dignified alternative? Or would you maybe suggest moving to a muslim monarchy and offer my services there is a more ethical way of living?

[cygnet78]

Latest from the "task force team" setup by CX and HK govt:-
Take as many applicants available in the market (even those failed previously will reapply)
Outsource training to clear all new pilots ASAP
Congrats to all new potential pilots. The doors are OPEN !!!!!

[Gnadenburg]

Don’t be so self-conscious. I was taking aim at the contributor attacking the reduced perks you now have available. I’m entertaining the expat community here and plenty in HKG still get lucrative perks including your bosses. Had a coffee in Central and one expat’s 4000 HKD expanse account allowance for such, sure buys nice Bordeaux!

Anyways. Judging by your stated circumstances aren’t you fortunate you not sacked like many others? Invest well!

[cadetjockey]

Don’t be so self-conscious. I was taking aim at the contributor attacking the reduced perks you now have available. I’m entertaining the expat community here and plenty in HKG still get lucrative perks including your bosses. Had a coffee in Central and one expat’s 4000 HKD expanse account allowance for such, sure buys nice Bordeaux!

Anyways. Judging by your stated circumstances aren’t you fortunate you not sacked like many others? Invest well!


Sounds like the golden days are back, hope you didn’t use up his whole 4k budget…

[magenta magnet]

And THAT defeatist attitude is the exact reason the abundantly rich are getting overabundantly rich and the middle class is disappearing.

If the Swires wanted they could re-install CoS 08 yesterday.
Hell, they could re-install CoS 96/A scale yesterday.
But why do that if you have thousands of you willing to fly for peanuts.

Good on the guys who looked at the offer, laughed and threw it back in their faces and hence remained the little bit of dignity that is still left in this sick industry.

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.

And continually saying you're an expat when you live in the country is kinda silly, you live there so you are a local most likely with a passport.

[cygnet78]

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.

And continually saying you're an expat when you live in the country is kinda silly, you live there so you are a local most likely with a passport.

WELL SAID !!!!!!!

[Piet Lood]

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.

And continually saying you're an expat when you live in the country is kinda silly, you live there so you are a local most likely with a passport.

Your guess is wrong.
Your assumptions are wrong.
And some of your statements are wrong.
But you do you and continue the acceptance of the continuation of the deterioration of your conditions of service like so many others and reap what you sow.

Do you think the Swires, Musk, Branson, Buffet, Zuckerburg, Gates etc. cut THEIR lavish lifestyles?
Don’t complain that in a few decades the middle class will have disappeared.
YOU have done NOTHING to stop it.

I was busier than ever during covid and made more than I ever did in HKG.
There was quite a bit of luck involved, but cx is not the only airline on the planet that continued to pay a salary. Even though they cut those salaries by 60%.
AND continues to do so now that covid is a thing of the past.

“They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear” because there are THOUSANDS like you who utter and accept that statement.
I’m not one of them and am reaping what I sowed too.

[KABOY]

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.


How many airlines place a document on the table that states:

'The parties do not intend any of these Conditions of Service to be enforceable under the Contract ordinance.'

And even better, 'The company may amend the handbook as well as any other rule, policy or direction issued by the company at any time at its sole discretion.'

So yes, some where paid whilst others were furloughed, but what sort of employment is this? It's like being paid a charitable donation, not compelled or enforced to do so.

How can anyone think that this company is ethical in any way with clauses like that! Welcome to 18th century labour laws, don't die on company property, the family will be charged for the cleanup.

[Sleepy Joe]

What I’m amazed by from the people who stayed is that they can make COS 18 work and that is the end of the cuts. Foolish thinking…..we can maybe talk when COS 27 or COS 30 is forced upon you with 2 weeks notice to make your mind up. You might earn less elsewhere but boy aren’t you happier away from that toxic place.

[KABOY]

What I’m amazed by from the people who stayed is that they can make COS 18 work and that is the end of the cuts. Foolish thinking…..we can maybe talk when COS 27 or COS 30 is forced upon you with 2 weeks notice to make your mind up. You might earn less elsewhere but boy aren’t you happier away from that toxic place.

With terms like this, they don’t need another COS. They have all the flexibility they need.

[Meursault]

Kaboy, Sleepy Joe, Piet Loot, Vebdetta, any other wiseguy

Where outside of the US ist it better? Name 5 airlines and we discuss.

Keep in mind that it must be accessible or make sense for:

typical new joiner, 22 year old non-pilot with a SAR or Chinese passport

FO, typically SA, Commonwealth or Euro Passport

CN with passport as above

Looking forward to your constructive suggestions ( or apologies).

[VforVENDETTA]

With a name like Piet Lood I'm guessing you are from South Africa? Please tell everyone what your local state airline SAA paid their pilots years ago? did they pay for schooling and housing etc? The fact of the matter remains, CX paid "some" pilots almost 3 years salary to sit at home (with Cos18) yes some had to cut back their lavish lifestyles <- we've all seen them post their photos of parties and champagne. Other airlines paid nothing...zero...zilch. Furloughed or let go completely, so the CX pilots were indeed very fortunate. Yes they have a new contract now that isn't as good as the old one 10-15 years ago, but the industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want. Aviation is not as specialized and romanticized as it was way back when. They are never going to bring back salaries and perks from yesteryear so just accept it or if they are being completely ridiculous, then strike or negotiate salaries.

And continually saying you're an expat when you live in the country is kinda silly, you live there so you are a local most likely with a passport.

More than a bit slow. Have you not read everything so far? Obviously you must not be a cathay pilot if you're understanding of how things have been is so far off the mark. At least read what cathay pilots are telling you how it is.

Why would SAA pay housing or education allowance in South Africa? As it's been said before, that is only a thing when you're an expat. You're not an expat in your own country. Lufthansa, KLM, United, Delta don't pay these allowances either when you're based in country. They didn't have to attract you to come live there in the first place.

Cathay didn't pay 3 years salary to those sitting at home. They paid half of salary and continue to do so. Also half of salary for those who worked high time especially on the 747 (cargo fleet) which was flying unlike the other fleets. Half salary to work your A$$ off to some and the same half salary to those sitting at home not working. Working my a$$ off and getting the same pay as someone sitting at home doing nothing for 3 years of covid madness. How fortunate for me. Twisted.

You say "they have a new contract now..." Again, you're being slow on the take. It's not a contract. It's called a handbook, amendable by cathay at any time and not enforceable as is written right into the document for sake of clarity. Write this down somewhere : IT'S NOT A CONTRACT. IT'S A HANDBOOK. it might help you get it.

"industry has a gluttony of pilots so they can pick and choose as they want." You're very funny. If you have not noticed, they're canceling 12 flights a day for a couple of months and will be for the foreseeable future due to LACK OF PILOTS. What gluttony of pilots then? Why can't they pick and choose pilots like before? Oh wait, it must be they pay half of what they paid before and... NO CONTRACT. How much money do you think cathay is leaving on the table due to this? Nevermind, don't answer that.

Sure, let them never bring back the compensation package of the past. The ship will continue sinking. Maybe they'll resign themselves to downsize it to a boat, permanently.

When the market share they can't operate again is taken up by other competitors, then they'll have a real fight on their hands. This will come eventually. Now that will be very romantic indeed. Popcorn...

And finally, Do yourself a favor and Google the meaning of "expat". You seem to be slow on this too.

[KABOY]

Kaboy, Sleepy Joe, Piet Loot, Vebdetta, any other wiseguy

Where outside of the US ist it better? Name 5 airlines and we discuss.

Keep in mind that it must be accessible or make sense for:

typical new joiner, 22 year old non-pilot with a SAR or Chinese passport

FO, typically SA, Commonwealth or Euro Passport

CN with passport as above

Looking forward to your constructive suggestions ( or apologies).


Start with an employment contract first, then we can compare.

What you have is ZERO with CX, other than a piece of payer saying how much they will give you today.

A foreign country and no working contract, ask people how that compares in the real world. Even domestic helpers have better protections than you, says a lot really.

[Meursault]

Start with an employment contract first, then we can compare.

What you have is ZERO with CX, other than a piece of payer saying how much they will give you today.

A foreign country and no working contract, ask people how that compares in the real world. Even domestic helpers have better protections than you, says a lot really.

I knew you had nothing, but thanks for confirming it.

[KABOY]

I knew you had nothing, but thanks for confirming it.


…and that is why you continue to work for them.

[Progress Wanchai]

This talk about expat conditions vs local conditions or airline X vs airline Y is irrelevant.

The market decides based against what a company is trying to achieve. CX has a stated aim of expanding at the eye watering rate of 43% over the next 12 months. Comfortably the most rapid expansion of any airline. Will they achieve that by simply offering a market competitive contract whereby as many pilots are attracted to cx as cx pilots are attracted to other airlines? Quite obviously not. The revolving door will simply continue to rotate with the majority of new crew replacing the old crew walking out the door.

Market competitive is fine if you’re simply trying to match the market. But if you’re trying to beat the market then a more sophisticated approach is required.

[cxflog]

I knew you had nothing, but thanks for confirming it.

And how much block did you work for the measly 3 million you made? There’s FO’s at my company making more than that and only working 12 days a month. But sure, continue being a brainless mouthpiece for CX. And next time post it up on the forums instead of sending me a PM aye.

[400 Jockey]

Piet Loot and Gnadenburg, if I left today I would have to work for another employer and end up with (maybe) half what I earn today, most probably rather a third really. I also would have less days off, most likely work a LCC roster, and very likely I would still not live where I want most. My children would have to leave a school they love, lose their friends, lose the helper they grew up with and are very close to. My wife would either lose her income or work for considerable less.
Does my decision not to leave, for the above reasons, make me lose my dignity or make me stupid or "defeatist" in your eyes? And how do you justify accepting an inferior LCC package that undermines local legacy carriers as more dignified alternative? Or would you maybe suggest moving to a muslim monarchy and offer my services there is a more ethical way of living?

So you are saying quite clearly that CoS18 is a good package for you as if you went anywhere else you would be earning half of what you are at CX?

[Meursault]

And how much block did you work for the measly 3 million you made? There’s FO’s at my company making more than that and only working 12 days a month. But sure, continue being a brainless mouthpiece for CX. And next time post it up on the forums instead of sending me a PM aye.

So you have nothing either. Thanks for making it clear. But please. put the numbers on the table bigmouth. Which airline?

[Meursault]

So you are saying quite clearly that CoS18 is a good package for you as if you went anywhere else you would be earning half of what you are at CX?

You are welcome to prove me wrong as well. Put it on the table.Then we discuss.

[cxflog]

So you have nothing either. Thanks for making it clear. And no, there is no FO who comes even close, please don't insult me by not distinguishing between net and gross, please don't do that to me, please. But not even in the US it's true anyway, not even gross, which as you very well know is off limits for about anyone at CX anyway. But, please, prove me wrong. Put the numbers on the table bigmouth.
Which airline?
B6 champ. 7 year FO on a 320. USD338k flight pay, 51k 401k. 735 block hours. I’ll get some numbers for the 12 year FO’s who max out the pay scale just so you can feel a little more inferior. Now how much block did you work for the 3 mil? :rolleyes:

Just another jealous loud mouth who can’t see the forest from the trees. Time to jog on I think.

[KABOY]

Asking people to relocate to a new country with a document, not a contract is a huge risk. The employment handbook has NO legal value in any environment and expecting an offer to remain the same when they clearly state it can be removed or amended is a joke.

Anytime someone invests in something of high significance such as a house carries a contract, for legal protection. I look forward to the sound legal advice you can provide to ppruners showing the protections you have in your employment with CX.

After all, they are expecting to employ from overseas and the handbook really is a compelling document to pack up and relocate for. A promise not to tamper with a document really says it all, if it was a contract they would have no choice but to honor it.

[VforVENDETTA]

We had a "contract". Not only they took every chance not to honor it throughout the years, one day they canceled the entire thing.

Because in Hong Kong that is a choice for the employers. Cathay proved it via setting a clear precedence. So even if they call it a contract again, it won't be worth the toilet paper it'll be written on. This is the law in Hong Kong.

[main_dog]

Asking people to relocate to a new country with a document, not a contract is a huge risk. The employment handbook has NO legal value in any environment and expecting an offer to remain the same when they clearly state it can be removed or amended is a joke.

Anytime someone invests in something of high significance such as a house carries a contract, for legal protection. I look forward to the sound legal advice you can provide to ppruners showing the protections you have in your employment with CX.

After all, they are expecting to employ from overseas and the handbook really is a compelling document to pack up and relocate for. A promise not to tamper with a document really says it all, if it was a contract they would have no choice but to honor it.

For me that pretty much sums it up, KAboy.

Regardless of whether you consider the current “package” excellent, good enough, insufficient or whatever, our terms and conditions are now simply a collection of policies, not a contract. They have been and will continue to be amended “from time to time”: they will improve them (slightly) right now as they struggle to crew flights, but we all know full well what will happen during the next downturn (and there is always a downturn coming).

It took a once-in-a-lifetime black swan event for them to rip up our contracts, but now they have us right where they want us, on a policy document unilaterally amendable on any convenient Friday afternoon. Buyer beware.

[magenta magnet]

It's been asked many times before on this forum and no one has given a clear answer, it's anonymous for a reason so don't hold back.

Write out your salary/package and then your monthly expenses in HK.

Because there has been a lot of issues from people wanting to send their 3 kids to Harrow and their stay at home wife to the spa three times a week, whilst paying off their ex-wife, tongue in cheek obviously.

[SIDS N STARS]

How do these guys compare?

1) British Airways
2) Air France
3) KLM
4) EK
5) Air Canada

[Meursault]

Magenta, I think this is pointless. So many individual differences. Take a Cn4 on 100 hrs in his own flat with a double income compared to a local SO living in Tuen Mun with his parents.

The decisive question is in my opinion rather: what are the alternatives for each individual?

I asked about specific alternatives, no reply.

Just talk about handbooks etc. From the same guys who hyperventilate about voluntary and unpredictable profit share at EK. And what handbook or contract protected the thousands of laid off pilots a couple of years ago?

Yes, our "contract" is worthless. But suicide because of fear of death doesn't make sense either. The salary cut and LCC roster are real, cuts at CX might or might not happen.

Kaboy, Sleepy Joe, Piet Loot, Vebdetta, any other wiseguy

Where outside of the US ist it better? Name 5 airlines and we discuss.

Keep in mind that it must be accessible or make sense for:

typical new joiner, 22 year old non-pilot with a SAR or Chinese passport

FO, typically SA, Commonwealth or Euro Passport

CN with passport as above

Looking forward to your constructive suggestions ( or apologies).

[cadetjockey]

What protections did our old contact provide anyway? LIFO? They showed that didn’t really mean anything. BPP? How’s that going… AOA’s gone quiet. D&G? It all got ripped up overnight when they pulled the rug away anyway

[raven11]

A simple litmus test for any experienced pilot considering a move to Hong Kong to join Cathay Pacific:

How many thousands of pilots have left the toxicity of Cathay Pacific, to join a real airline, and regretted doing so?
Are there any pilots currently flying for a real airline moving their families to Hong Kong to join Cathy Pacific?

Nuff said….

[122.85]

Left in 2018 to go to my national carrier direct to long haul fleet, went part time within first two years and never looked back. Best decision I ever made, culture so much more relaxed and the ability to swap trips is a huge bonus. I see a number of CX have just joined us DEFO on to some of our long haul fleets and expect a few more in the near future.

[Zi Peng]

At the end of the day is all about options and personal circumstances.
All the join this and that is utter rubbish, you are not getting a job at KLM ( and so on) if you don’t speak Dutch !
Do your research, if you have a family starting a career as an expat at CX is hard to say the least.
Definitely not a lifetime career choice, if you join use it to further your career elsewhere at some point or be ready to.
Everybody I know, in all ranks, is re assessing periodically their future, pretty much everybody has 3 to 5 years plan.