Return to Gate - logbook

[betraist]

Just wondering how a Return to Gate scenario (i.e. you taxi out, some problem arises, go back to the gate, and company system shows it as a separate flight with departure and destination being the same) is logged under EASA/UK rules. I believe it's loggable under FAA as flight time, but not sure under EASA. TIA!

[EC-KIY]

EASA definition:
Flight Time: "the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight"

Therefore the ground return is a flight, and all of it counts towards "total flight time" column in your logbook. However, no takeoff nor landing performed.
It wouldn't be "flight time" if you were asked to just taxi the aircraft from one stand to another, because you didn't have the purpose of taking off.

Look at this interesting PDF of differences in definitions between ICAO and EASA:
https://hub.easa.europa.eu/crt/docs/viewcrdattachment/cid_16435/aid_279/fmd_c7cfb6d63d3f7105b7a2c5e3dc49970c

[porterpat]

until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight"

[poldek77]

A little bit off topic - an issue with FTL.

Does such a ground return count as a sector for the purpose of calculating "Maximum daily FDP according to sectors"?
GM1 ORO.FTL.105(17) Definitions, states:
“sector” means the segment of an FDP between an aircraft first moving for the purpose of taking off until it comes to rest after landing on the designated parking position;

No landing -> no sector?
But still a flight?

[Luc Lion]

Yes, such a wording is dangerous.
It may infer that the number of take-offs plus the number of landings can be an odd number...

[+TSRA]

Does such a ground return count as a sector for the purpose of calculating "Maximum daily FDP according to sectors"?

Is the maximum daily FDP based on flown or scheduled sectors in the EU? Here in Canada, max FDP is based on our scheduled sectors and time of report.

​​​​​​​“sector” means the segment of an FDP between an aircraft first moving for the purpose of taking off until it comes to rest after landing on the designated parking position; No landing -> no sector?
But still a flight?

Look at this another way. According to the reference provided, a flight from ABC to XYZ runs off the side of the runway at XYZ due to slippery runway conditions. By the book that would not be classed as a sector given the flight did not come to rest after landing on the designated parking position but rather at the side of the runway. Not exactly the intent of the reg methinks, despite that flight clearly being between two airports. Still, in the original RTG scenario, not a sector, but is a runway excursion not a sector too (extreme case I know)

[poldek77]

Is the maximum daily FDP based on flown or scheduled sectors in the EU? Here in Canada, max FDP is based on our scheduled sectors and time of report.

Look at this another way. According to the reference provided, a flight from ABC to XYZ runs off the side of the runway at XYZ due to slippery runway conditions. By the book that would not be classed as a sector given the flight did not come to rest after landing on the designated parking position but rather at the side of the runway. Not exactly the intent of the reg methinks, despite that flight clearly being between two airports. Still, in the original RTG scenario, not a sector, but is a runway excursion not a sector too (extreme case I know)

- I haven't found any statement/reference saying that it applies to planning phase only but standing by to be corrected.
- Your example is brilliant :D, and it seems that the official definition doesn't cover the topic properly.

[nonsense]

EASA definition:
Flight Time: "the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight"

Therefore the ground return is a flight, and all of it counts towards "total flight time" column in your logbook. However, no takeoff nor landing performed.
It wouldn't be "flight time" if you were asked to just taxi the aircraft from one stand to another, because you didn't have the purpose of taking off.

Look at this interesting PDF of differences in definitions between ICAO and EASA:
https://hub.easa.europa.eu/crt/docs/viewcrdattachment/cid_16435/aid_279/fmd_c7cfb6d63d3f7105b7a2c5e3dc49970c

Apparently under ICAO, an F111 with swing wings is not an aeroplane!

"Aeroplane A power-driven heavier-than-air aircraft, deriving its lift in flight chiefly
from aerodynamic reactions on surfaces which remain fixed under given
conditions of flight."

[rudestuff]

"Under given conditions" - they aren't required to move continuously. Same principle as slats and flaps. It's an Airplane.

[FullWings]

If I have to RTG after despatch having planned to go flying, I need to sign the AML and start another sector, so for me, practically, yes, it does count. FTL-wise I would include it too.

[NoelEvans]

"Return to stand" most certainly counts as a 'sector' for FTLs.

But I have never entered that in my logbook. For there to be an entry in my Flying Logbook, I need to have actually left the ground.

[Genghis the Engineer]

That's your call Noel, and a reasonable one.

Personally I do log it, as I invariably learned something from the experience. Offhand however, it's well under 0.1% of my total flying experience, so I'm hardly gaining much from that!

Incidentally, a lot of years ago I was in court (in the UK) as a witness in a prosecution of somebody who inadvertently got airborne in an aircraft he wasn't qualified to fly, then crashed it. It was decided by a jury that he was not guilty of illegal flying, as there had been no intention of flight, and therefore it wasn't legally a flight - despite there being air under the tyres for a short period.

G

[Check Airman]

My airline logs it so I do as well- for no other reason than it makes life easier when I’m auditing my logbook to check for errors. It doesn’t happen often. It gets lost in the big picture.

[Central Scrutinizer]

"Return to stand" most certainly counts as a 'sector' for FTLs.

But I have never entered that in my logbook. For there to be an entry in my Flying Logbook, I need to have actually left the ground.

How about a rejected take-off? Would you not log that too? Wouldn't you agree that experiencing a real-life rejected take-off is valuable "flight" experience for any pilot?

[oceancrosser]

This thread, along with the one on stamping logbooks has to be among the most useless discussions on PPRUNE…

[Mr Albert Ross]

This thread, alone with the one on stamping logbooks has to be among the most useless discussions on PPRUNE…
... and the one on folding pilot shirts...!!

[H Peacock]

Come on guys, do you really want to log ‘flying’ time while still on the ground? Log your flight time properly like the military - take-off through until landing! 🤔

PS - Don’t bite!