BA pilot beaten/robbed in ZA

[iwalkedaway]

This on Sky News this afternoon: https://news.sky.com/story/british-airways-pilot-kidnapped-and-tortured-during-stopover-shopping-trip-13046022

[Dunhovrin]

We’ve all done it. Gone to help a young lady, obviously in distress judging by the spartan state her clothing, only for there to be a misunderstanding and suddenly you’re being frogmarched to a cash point.

[nguba]

There was another incident last year when a BA pilot was stabbed when out jogging. Sadly, the situation only seems destined to get worse.

[Consol]

Hope he's alright, a very scary experience. Sad to see South Africa getting so bad, spent many happy times there but not sure when I'll ever go back.

On the plus side, impressive range on the Embraer.

[luganao]

Never, never go out alone in South Africa, even in Sandton. I read that the incident was in Melrose.
Sympathy to the victim but overconfidence leads to arrogance which leads to stupid is stupid does. In my experience the only safe country on the. African continent is Ghana. I do however stand to be corrected.

[421dog]

Never, never go out alone in South Africa, even in Sandton. I read that the incident was in Melrose.
Sympathy to the victim but overconfidence leads to arrogance which leads to stupid is stupid does. In my experience the only safe country on the. African continent is Ghana. I do however stand to be corrected.


Egypt still does a pretty good job in the cities, and the only thing that scared me in Namibia was the gangs of hipopottomi.

[Gordomac]

Things were getting serious with me and a South African chic. I asked her what would it be like to be Based in Joburg. She said ;" Well, if you make it home from the airport without being mugged and there is a beer in the fridge, it's not bad". I pulled a silly UK protected face and said something even sillier like "Yikes!". Got dumped.

[Fursty Ferret]

Egypt still does a pretty good job in the cities

If you’re a man.

[Flyhighfirst]

Never, never go out alone in South Africa, even in Sandton. I read that the incident was in Melrose.
Sympathy to the victim but overconfidence leads to arrogance which leads to stupid is stupid does. In my experience the only safe country on the. African continent is Ghana. I do however stand to be corrected.

We have been to South Africa 6 times. My wife goes out running in the morning (before I even wake up thankfully) everyday. Never had a problem. All cities have some risks. There are some suburbs in New York I wouldn’t go to. As well as in London, and Los Angeles.

I would feel safer in some areas of South Africa than I would in some areas of the US.

[RichardJones]

I was based down there in the mid 1980's. Same in Rhodesia mid 1970's. No trouble of that nature, muggings etc.in those days. Things worked down there then.. The world wanted it changed. And change they got.

[Sick]

We have been to South Africa 6 times. My wife goes out running in the morning (before I even wake up thankfully) everyday. Never had a problem. All cities have some risks. There are some suburbs in New York I wouldn’t go to. As well as in London, and Los Angeles.

I would feel safer in some areas of South Africa than I would in some areas of the US.
what vacuous and utterly flawed reasoning! You've been there 6 times and not been mugged or murdered? - well it MUST be safe - no further evidence required!
Anyone who knows the current state of SA knows it has become extremely dangerous. It used to be ok outside the known hotspots, but that violent crime has permeated throughout almost all of the country. Utterly unpredictable violence and murder - I personally knew someone randomly shot at traffic lights (no resistance, no demands - just shoot first, then take the bag, zero regard for life) and another who's farm workers tried to kill him. And I only know a dozen or so people there!
SA murder rate 42 (/100000/yr)... USA = 6.4. UK = 1.2
A basic grasp of empirical risk might come in useful in more ways than one!

[krismiler]

Two Singapore Airlines cabin crew were robbed at gunpoint outside the entrance to the Holiday Inn Santon hotel in Johannesburg in 2018. Not far from the point were the bus will need an armed escort to and from the airport, and crew will be confined to the premises during their stay.

[B Fraser]

I wandered into a casino in PE, wearing a polo shirt, shorts and deck shoes. "Sir, do you have any firearms to check in ?"

One visit was quite enough. Great local flying, wildlife, botany, scenery etc. but totally screwed.

[dr dre]

Anyone who knows the current state of SA knows it has become extremely dangerous. It used to be ok outside the known hotspots, but that violent crime has permeated throughout almost all of the country.

SA murder rate 42 (/100000/yr)... USA = 6.4. UK = 1.2
A basic grasp of empirical risk might come in useful in more ways than one!

SA murder rate was about double (https://theconversation.com/facts-show-south-africa-has-not-become-more-violent-since-democracy-62444) during the last years of Apartheid from 1980-1994.

There’s been a slight uptick in recent years but not approaching 1980-1994 levels.


Spent a fabulous 7 years there in the 70s and another year there in mid 80s.
As others have stated, now a totally screwed up place, but the world got what they wanted.

Actually it was a 70% yes vote in a white South African only referendum in 1992 which voted to end apartheid. The recent uptick in crime is probably due to more recent issues as the murder rate now is still half of 1980s levels.

[ZFT]

Dr dre

Have you ever been to South Africa let alone reside there?

[Right20deg]

Same sort of issues in Lagos. Armed escort to from the crew accom and don't wander off the hotac compound.
Closer to home, we could pop into Crawley for a pint and a stab. Eeek.

[NoelEvans]

Just don't go there. I grew up there and won't go back, for one major reason: the violent crime.

Just read this before thinking of going there: https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/south-africa/safety-and-security.

There are much nicer and safer countries to visit in the world.

(Someone has tried to claim that the murder rate was higher in the run up to 1994. Yes it would have been: the ANC mobs were murdering 'their own people' to subdue them -- remember their 'necklaces'? There was also a huge amount of violence between 'anti-apartheid' factions trying to gain the upper hand. But none of that 'excuses' the appalling murder rate now and the dismal failure of the ANC government to control it. On the "Crimewatch" programme on UK TV several years ago, to put people's minds at rest after a programme about crime, the comment was made that "Most people [in Britain] don't know someone who knowns someone who knows someone who has been involved in a violent crime". By contrast, most people in South Africa know someone who knows someone who has been murdered.)

Stay away. Or if you have to go there, like this BA crew, don't budge out of your secure hotel.

[krismiler]

During the years of white rule in South Africa and Rhodesia, the police were efficient and weren't corrupt. Their main focus was keeping crime out of the white areas, murders in Soweto weren't a major priority. You would be okay in a wealthy area like Sandton if you took sensible precautions and followed local advice.

These days, the police are largely ineffective and I would tend to think they were as tainted with corruption as every other state institution. I've worked with a few SA pilots and their stories included: a brother murdered, a best friend murdered and a parent marched into a bank with a knife at their back being forced to withdraw money.

Most people there would have either been the victim of violent crime or had some close to them be a victim.

While white farmers are being murdered at the rate of more than one a week, South Africa brings a case against Israel for genocide at the ICJ in the Hague.

[Uplinker]

I have only operated to Cape Town once. The previous day we had done a very pleasant tour of the wine area, and this day the crew were going down to the docks area for lunch, and for some reason, which I cannot remember, I said I would meet them later.

Being aware of the risks, I left my wallet, watch, phone, sunglasses etc in the hotel, and dressed scruffily, with just some paper money in my otherwise empty pockets.

It was the middle of the day, and as I walked past a square in a business area towards the docks, I noticed a small cabin on one corner where a policeman could shelter. Inside it were four policemen, all crammed in.....

I thought to myself; gee thanks guys, you are supposed to be out patrolling the streets, keeping us all safe, yet here you are, all hiding in a one man police shelter.

[Pilot DAR]

Posts which are on topic, non political, and non racist are welcomed to continue this discussion. Statistics and opinions about local culture are not helping.

Thank you, one of your moderators....

[slast]

Nobody seems to have information as to whether the supermarket was actually within the recommended Melrose "safe area"?

Some of the comments remind me that Belfast shuttle crew nightstops in the 70s involved changing into civvies before leaving in a taxi whose driver had to be photo id'ed before getting in. Limited areas of movement around the hotel.

[421dog]

I think that those of us who have lived in SA and enjoyed the country with White, Black, and Coulored colleagues, all of whom seemed to be pretty happy, are bemoaning the fact that the country with a longer legacy than the United States that we once lived in and loved, has essentially evaporated.
I’m happy to be politically correct, but I have friends there that are at daily risk of being killed (not just whites)
this is an international travesty

[PAXboy]

I have had family in the country since 1830. I lived there for a substantive part of my chidhood and went to school there. Family still live there. We visit them and school friends every couple of years.

Unfortunately, the country is following in the footsteps of every other African country. Although they have avoided civil war (thus far) the country will continue to slide down the scale. Tradgedy beyond words. Can anything be done about it? From outside the country - no. That is simple human nature, no country is changed for the better from outside. Can the people inside change it for the better? Not yet ...

[NoelEvans]

...

Just read this before thinking of going there: https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/south-africa/safety-and-security.

...

Posts which are on topic, non political, and non racist are welcomed to continue this discussion. Statistics and opinions about local culture are not helping.

Thank you, one of your moderators....
For a like-for-like assessment of the safety in different countries, have a close look at that link above, then go onto the https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice website and see the updated assessments of other countries. Start with all South Africa's direct neighbours: Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Eswatini and Lesotho. Compare the Safety and Security section in each with what you read about South Africa. Then look around the world a bit more: Canada, USA (someone tried comparing the USA with SA -- just look at the vastly different advice on the two here), Australia and New Zealand. Then scale up your caution for any necessary visits to South Africa accordingly. And if your visit is not necessary (e.g. not for work/business), probably best for your own safety to avoid going there. This poor guy that this Post is all about would have been massively traumatised. What he went through was not unusual (I know of people who have been through similar there, although not as extreme). Do you really need to put yourself at risk of the same?

My last visit there several years ago I was fetched by family from the airport (at night) and there was a discussion between them on the route that we were going to take 'home', was it to be on the motorway ('freeway') bypass or into town. I thought they might be wanting to show me something in town. No, it turned out that there had been a lot of hijackings on a 'remote' part of the motorway and that all the different police forces (national, municipal, traffic) had been finding excuses why it was not their 'jurisdiction'. We went through town... That was in the first half an hour in the country off the airport! Added to other crime concerns (high security fences around homes, steel gates on doors, etc., etc., etc.) during my short family visit, I have not been back and will not do so, simply due to the fact that I felt very, very unsafe there. I heard it put into context very well by one family member there: "South Africa is the only country where the good people are behind bars (all their household security) and the criminals are roaming the streets freely".

Sad. But true.

[421dog]

In the ‘70s I saw Flanders and Swann in a cabaret in Pretoria. Had a half of bottle of Stein (as a 16 y/o) and was convinced I had arrived.

[Cat3508]

Born and brought up there, left 40 years ago and never been back. Still have a sister there in dire circumstance, and cousins. Deeply saddened as to the state of the country, and cant see it getting any better. To most sensible people, we know the real reason !! , there isn't much more to say.

[krismiler]

A friend of mine picked up a hire car at the airport in Johannesburg, on entering the carpark he was met by someone dressed similarly to the rental company staff. He was asked for the bay number of the car he was picking up which was entered into the person's mobile phone. On arrival at the car this person made a quick inspection for damage and left. Whilst driving away from the airport my mate noticed two things, firstly one of the rear tyres was going flat and secondly he was being followed.

Luckily he made it to a police station while the car was still driveable. Most people would have simply pulled over to change the wheel and been robbed or murdered.

[Plastic787]

Nobody seems to have information as to whether the supermarket was actually within the recommended Melrose "safe area"?.

If you mean was it outside the gates, yes that has been answered and yes it was but by the matter of a few hundred meters if that. Enough you might say but still truly shocking, especially when apparently some of the conversation in the vehicle revolved around whether they should kill him or not.

[Gordomac]

Rotten shame really. Those of us within a certain age group and languishing on airport Sby in the Queens building at thiefrow will remember that when SA advertised in the back of Flight Mag for pilots, a queue formed from Staines to Joburg.

Of course, blissfully naive , I have many instances where someone, somewhere, has stepped in and saved my rear-end.

Several Joburg nightstops under the belt, I rented a van & planned a crew trip to Sun City. Renter told me that if anyone tried to hijack the vehicle, just give them the keys.

On a further solo mission, I was being followed, too closely by a bunch of yobs. While I had the racing line, they took me on the inside . Of course I pursued,overtook, jammed on the brakes and gave a solo fingured victory salute. They followed, very closely for a couple of miles but because of my exceptional Top Gun ,combat evasion skills, they became increasingly thwarted but annoyed. I roared into the Hotel just in time as I sensed radar lock. Receptionist warned against duelling in SA.

Still blissfully happy in one of my fave destinations. After usual shopping adventure in the Mall, decided to walk back to the Hotel waving cheerily to the Crew happy to board the pre-booked Hotel bus.

I was quickly intercepted by a local. He was going the same way. We cheerily chatted. Parted company outside the Hotel after twenty minute stroll . He rendered a quick de-brief into how dangerous what I had just done was. I thought; What a bloody nische bloke.

Re-telling the tale to the gorgeous Receptionist, she looked like she was about to faint and suggested that I was lucky to still be alive.. Seriously.

I stopped looking at S Africa as a potential retirement site.

[421dog]

The habit, in the ‘80s and ‘90s of using white spray paint to outline the road kill from combi wrecks was endearing (inuring?), and made me damned sure to put my full face helmet on even for a jaunt up the Boer war trails in the Magaliesburg. Still managed to ride across to Walvis Bay with Jerry cans lashed to the back.

Its a wonder any of us survived…

[Argonautical]

Never, never go out alone in South Africa, even in Sandton. I read that the incident was in Melrose.
Sympathy to the victim but overconfidence leads to arrogance which leads to stupid is stupid does. In my experience the only safe country on the. African continent is Ghana. I do however stand to be corrected.

How you can prefer Ghana to Botswana is beyond me.

[JanetFlight]

The streets of Kigali (Rwanda) imho remains clean and nicely safe for some years...

[luganao]

Many happy memories after two tours totalling 9 years.