US Pilots Reluctant To Use Mayday in Emergencies

[Mike Flynn]

The Alaskan 737 door blowout once again highlights the reluctance of some US pilots to use the standard ICAO phrase Mayday when declaring an emergency.

Listening to the conversation with ATC there appeared confusion with the initial situation because of the lack of standard ICAO phraseology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEh71lT08hI

The FedEx emergency below demonstrates what appears to be a widespread problem with many Americans pilots.At no point did the crew call Mayday.

The ATC audio starts around 45 seconds in.

https://youtu.be/-uOo6f3NRFM

The regulations are quite clear .
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap6_section_3.html

[WannabeBus]

I'm wondering the same thing. Is it not in the FAA standard phraseology for RT comms? Mayday x 3 at the start of an emergency call not the procedure/requirement for emergency situations for FAA training/exams?
The link given says "..... aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY"
So the pilots see that it says "should", not shall or are required?
I have also observed that often the same ATC controller will after a bit, ask the pilot to confirm POB, FOB, etc, again, which was just given the same controller and acknowledged earlier. Is it SOP for ATC to get the pilot to repeat these details? It seems annoying and distracting to ask for these details that were already stated and acknowledged as the cockpit workload is very high and stressful. Also note that when handed over to another sector controller they often ask for the same info given on the earlier ATC frequency. Does ATC during handover not pass on whether it's an emergency and other info? Or do they need to ask this again?

The Alaskan 737 door blowout once again highlights the reluctance of some US pilots to use the standard ICAO phrase Mayday when declaring an emergency.

Listening to the conversation with ATC there appeared confusion with the initial situation because of the lack of standard ICAO phraseology.

[421dog]

Whatever…
The Pilot Communicating declared an emergency. The flight got what they needed without trouble, and the Europeans got to throw spitballs. Seems like a win-win-win…

[Bergerie1]

421dog, It is not a question of the USA vv Europe, but a question of the USA vv the rest of thw world.

And WannabeBus, If the ATC questions about FOB and POB are becoming distracting all the pilot has to say is, "STANDBY" Captains need to take command of the situation, all too often they don't.

I am not saying the crew of the Alaska flight did anything wrong, they seem to have handled the emergency very well, as did ATC, and the result, despite the door coming off, was a sucessfull landing.

[421dog]

So what else did you want to have someone say? It sounded like a young first officer did a very competent job of asking and getting what she needed. The door blew out at 16k or so, so nobody was gonna die on the way down, and, looking at the track of the flight, the pilots were letting the computer follow the magenta line.
A high dollar, but not a super dangerous situation.

[Bergerie1]

I agree the F/O handled the emergency very well, as did ATC. I am only pointing out the relevance of the international rules. And, I would add, the only time I have had an emergency in the US (a long time ago), ATC couldn't have been more helpful

[421dog]

Well, given the fact that (with respect to Santos Dumont {and my Carioca Wife who insists that he beat the Wright Brothers} we invented aviation, and have more ops daily than the rest of the world combined), we’ll be happy to accommodate you, right after we get over the hump of converting the definition of “NOTAM”…

[Bergerie1]

Touché, monsieur!!

[A321drvr]

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap10_section_1.html#:~:text=A%20pilot%20who%20encounters%2 0a,used%20in%20the%20same%20manner.

[421dog]

Yeah, I like you guys too👍.

[Herod]

During my time I had to declare "Mayday" three times. Two of those were in French airspace, going into CDG. After about three conversations in French between ATC and French aircraft, the reply to me was "XXX, say again"

[Mike Flynn]

During my time I had to declare "Mayday" three times. Two of those were in French airspace, going into CDG. After about three conversations in French between ATC and French aircraft, the reply to me was "XXX, say again"

Lets hope this doesn’t develop in to a slanging match between USA pilots and the rest of the world.

Mayday' originates from the French phrase 'm'aidez' which means 'help me'. It was first adopted as a distress signal for aviation in the early 1920s. The credit for its implementation goes to Frederick Stanley Mockford, a senior radio officer at London's Croydon Airport.

It is standard ICAO phraseology across the globe.

Here is how we are required to do it on this side of the pond.Textbook radio calls and everyone aware without unnecessary chatter.

Top marks to the guys on the radio.

https://youtu.be/RPkZBR89y_M

[kghjfg]

I don’t get it, twice in my life I’ve had to declare a pan, the person at the other end instantly knew I was in trouble, but it could be dealt with.

I’ve always thought of Mayday being a word which means “I’m in real trouble I’m going to have to do whatever I like for a bit, I expect you to facilitate that”.

Was this a Mayday situation anyway?

I suppose at the time they didn’t know it was a door plug and not structurally significant.

I’d probably have used the M word and debated that afterwards.

[stilton]

The Alaskan 737 door blowout once again highlights the reluctance of some US pilots to use the standard ICAO phrase Mayday when declaring an emergency.

Listening to the conversation with ATC there appeared confusion with the initial situation because of the lack of standard ICAO phraseology.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEh71lT08hI

The FedEx emergency below demonstrates what appears to be a widespread problem with many Americans pilots.At no point did the crew call Mayday.

The ATC audio starts around 45 seconds in.

https://youtu.be/-uOo6f3NRFM

The regulations are quite clear .
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap6_section_3.html


Time to give this a rest, pilots from non U.S. countries are not immune from using non standard phraseology themselves

This Alaska crew handled the emergency well and landed safely

End of problem

[Mike Flynn]

I wasn’t having a go at the Alaskan pilots and agree they did an excellent job.

My argument is why bother with standard phraseology when no one bothers. Fly low level across Europe and Asia and you’ll understand what I mean. Spanish controllers in Latin America are a good example of failure to adhere to the rules.

[ItsonlyMeagain]

Standard phraseology will be understood by all. Strangely, a lot of the traffic in the US is from countries that do stick to the rules. If I hear Mayday, I’ll shut up. If I hear what may appear to be a normal transmission, I may carry on as normal and inadvertently get in the way.

There are many things in SOPs and aviation rules that could be improved, but they should be followed, because …… they are the rules. If I decide things are better my way, even if I do a great job, I’m wrong.

Me

[Jonty]

My only add to this is that Pilots need to understand that when they declare an emergency they are not only telling ATC, but every other aircraft on that frequency. In a lot of airspace there are pilots for whom English is not their first language, even in the USA, and the use of MAYDAY helps alert all the other aircraft to their situation.

[421dog]

It ain’t the other aircraft’s problem. ATC deals with it well over here on a single-tier basis. If an EMP event occurs, all of us are gonna be spouting PanPan or Mayday to no avail…

when the system goes down, the people over here have shown themselves to be remarkably resilient at not running into each other in dense airspace.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I think there is nothing else that can be said at the beginning of a radio transmission other than "MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY", which will immediately silence everyone and make them pay extreme attention to what's being said next. I think this is the most important strength of using that phrase. Not only ATC but also everyone else will immediately understand what's going on.

Real life communications of US emergencies go like: "Uhh center this is American 123, we're out of Dulles through 6 climbing on to 10 and we need to stop our climb at this point, we are declaring an emergency due to smoke in the cabin and... uh... we'll request to return to Dulles after we run some checks first, can we take up the hold here over the VOR at 10?", in a very calm and standard way. Anyone else hearing this in the background won't pick up that they just declared an emergency because it's embedded within the transmission as another piece of "normal" information. It seems routine.

[Jonty]

It ain’t the other aircraft’s problem. ATC deals with it well over here on a single-tier basis. If an EMP event occurs, all of us are gonna be spouting PanPan or Mayday to no avail…

when the system goes down, the people over here have shown themselves to be remarkably resilient at not running into each other in dense airspace.

Of course it's the "other aircrafts problem". If I'm expecting to land at an airport and someone has just declared a MAYDAY I can at least expect my landing to be delayed, if not a diversion to an alternate. My situational awareness has just been greatly improved by knowing that there's an aircraft out there in trouble. I also know to shut up and await instructions.

[Asturias56]

MAYDAY is a simple one word and makes it clear to everyone INSTANTLY that you're in trouble

I honestly can't see why Dog doesn't like it - seemingly on the grounds its "not American"

[421dog]

Of course it's the "other aircrafts problem". If I'm expecting to land at an airport and someone has just declared a MAYDAY I can at least expect my landing to be delayed, if not a diversion to an alternate. My situational awareness has just been greatly improved by knowing that there's an aircraft out there in trouble. I also know to shut up and await instructions.

Approximately one million years ago, when I learned how to fly at a big ten university institute of aviation, I was invited (with my instructor) into the directors office (ex USAF WW2 bird colonel) to explain some anomaly relating to a C-130 up from Scott AFB who felt he got cut out in the pattern (in which there were 10-15 single engine aircraft at the time). In any event, he ranted and raved, and then said that we did the right thing by keeping the pattern tight, and maintaining SA….
Nobody died, everybody got what they needed, and safety wasn’t compromised.

[Cornish Jack]

It's odd that a Nation which seems to be intent on minimising word content to muttered 'cool', 'ossum', OMG, 'keh' and non committal grunts would prefer descriptive scenario output rather than formulaic clear statement.That aside, those aviators who have ever bothered to acquaint themselves with the ground based side of aviation communication, will be aware of the unheard background activity which 'PAN' and, particularly, 'MAYDAY' initiates. The resultant reduction in workload in a potentially high load situation is of undoubted value.... it possibly doesn't sit well with 'Top Gun' mindsets !:rolleyes:

[Alan Baker]

As anybody who has seen the various RNLI Saving Lives at Sea programmes will know, Mayday is only supposed to be used when there is an imminent danger to life. If your yacht's engine breaks down it is not a Mayday. If your yacht's engine breaks down and the current is sweeping you onto rocks it is a Mayday. Sending a Mayday call is asking for help, I am not sure what help can be rendered to an airliner flying at 16,000 feet, so maybe the use of Mayday by aircraft is pointless and just declaring an emergency is the correct option.

[Theholdingpoint]

Never heard of "PAN PAN"?

[HPSOV L]

The USA regulations are surprisingly vague and seem to be cobbled together from 1950s ideas that nobody has the stomach to try cleaning up. It works okay for them. Though I’d like to think they at least try to adapt when they visit the Rest of the World.

[Del Prado]

As anybody who has seen the various RNLI Saving Lives at Sea programmes will know, Mayday is only supposed to be used when there is an imminent danger to life. If your yacht's engine breaks down it is not a Mayday. If your yacht's engine breaks down and the current is sweeping you onto rocks it is a Mayday. Sending a Mayday call is asking for help, I am not sure what help can be rendered to an airliner flying at 16,000 feet, so maybe the use of Mayday by aircraft is pointless and just declaring an emergency is the correct option.

Must remember that next time I’m on a sailing forum.

[meleagertoo]

Sending a Mayday call is asking for help, I am not sure what help can be rendered to an airliner flying at 16,000 feet, so maybe the use of Mayday by aircraft is pointless and just declaring an emergency is the correct option.
Sending a MAYDAY is NOT just asking for help, it's also telling everyone - ATC as well as other aircraft - that there is iminent danger and you may not be asking to do things before you've done them. It's telling everyone "I'm doing whatever I think I need to do right now and I may not be be asking first. I'll tell you what I'm doing if I can and when I can."
A major decompression is most assuredly a MAYDAY if the drills are carried out correctly as you will iminently be initiating a rapid descent if you haven't already done so, that action in itself requires a MAYDAY regardless of the malfunction.
Also, when your eardrums almost burst, there's a massive bang and whoosh, the cockpit door bursts open and the cabin is full of fog, rubber jungle and screams you haven't a clue what's caused it, you could have had a midair, lost a cargo door or half the roof's come off à la Hawaii - it could have been a bomb... it'll be many minutes before you might learn what's happened (if you ever do before landing). That's most definately an immediate MAYDAY and rapid descent until such time as you are satisfied there is no more danger -
That is not the time for the garbled , imprecise and inarticulate RT as we heard in this case and as we have in many others. Quite unlike the crisp, immaculate and unmistakable RT of the Thomsonfly in post #12.
OK, clearly she was well rattled - that's quite understandable but regular practice in MAYDAY calls throughout training would have kicked in had she recieved that in training and recurrents, it becomes second nature.

[davidjpowell]

Surely an advantage to a Mayday is that it helps pilots communicate the nature of an urgent and unusual situation, in a pattern which they have practiced in the sim.

Both of the example video's get the message over eventually, but it takes some back and forth. No harm done, but why not learn from it?

Compared to the Thompson video (which was always going to be posted) where the pilot does his mayday and tells atc what he is doing. ATC and everyone else listens and reacts. The Pilot knows what they are going to say because they practice the start of it in every sim. ATC no what to expect, because they will also practice it. Everyone on air is clear.

And finally one of my favourites where Aer Lingus declare a mayday, and ATC ask if they are declaring an emergency...

https://youtu.be/4UHWl62szvY?si=ChUMoZIoFBc6jWHx

[Easy Street]

Emergency descent after depressurisation is a good example of when a MAYDAY broadcast serves a vital purpose in alerting other pilots to listen carefully to the message which follows, as they may need to take avoiding action and be prepared for some rapidly changing TCAS advisories. There's not enough time in such situations for ATC to assimilate the emergency message, assess its consequences for other aircraft and transmit bespoke advisories to each affected callsign. The idea from our nautical interloper that aircraft are 'on their own' and don't stand to benefit from others being immediately aware is rather crass!

[421dog]

Sending a MAYDAY is NOT just asking for help, it's also telling everyone - ATC as well as other aircraft - that there is iminent danger and you may not be asking to do things before you've done them. It's telling everyone "I'm doing whatever I think I need to do right now and I may not be be asking first. I'll tell you what I'm doing if I can and when I can."
A major decompression is most assuredly a MAYDAY if the drills are carried out correctly as you will iminently be initiating a rapid descent if you haven't already done so, that action in itself requires a MAYDAY regardless of the malfunction.
Also, when your eardrums almost burst, there's a massive bang and whoosh, the cockpit door bursts open and the cabin is full of fog, rubber jungle and screams you haven't a clue what's caused it, you could have had a midair, lost a cargo door or half the roof's come off à la Hawaii - it could have been a bomb... it'll be many minutes before you might learn what's happened (if you ever do before landing). That's most definately an immediate MAYDAY and rapid descent until such time as you are satisfied there is no more danger -
That is not the time for the garbled , imprecise and inarticulate RT as we heard in this case and as we have in many others. Quite unlike the crisp, immaculate and unmistakable RT of the Thomsonfly in post #12.
OK, clearly she was well rattled - that's quite understandable but regular practice in MAYDAY calls throughout training would have kicked in had she recieved that in training and recurrents, it becomes second nature.

The pilot communicating did an impeccable job.
An explosive decompression isn’t necessarily an emergency depending on the circumstances.
A few months ago, I was in the high teens over the central US (just me, coming home from work) when there was a God-awful bang, and the rear bulkhead fascia hit the back of my seat. it started to snow in the cabin, and the cabin diff went to zero. Everything else was nominal, so I sucked O2 for a few min, called Center and asked to land at an upcoming larger airport to troubleshoot a problem. No muss, no fuss, landed and figured out that the rear cabin door was maladjusted, and had popped open sufficiently to allow the aircraft to decompress suddenly at altitude.
Didn’t need to discommode anyone, nor should I have…

[Herod]

Mike, further to your post #12, following my comments, I'm not in a slanging match USA versus the world. My comments on two mayday events into Paris were when flying a British aircraft from the UK.

[meleagertoo]

The pilot communicating did an impeccable job.
An explosive decompression isn’t necessarily an emergency depending on the circumstances.
A few months ago, I was in the high teens over the central US (just me, coming home from work)
Didn’t need to discommode anyone, nor should I have…
Three points.
1) You clearly have a unique understanding of the word "impeccable" as well as a unique understanding of the nature of a correct emergency transmission. ICAO will explain...And listen to the audio in Post #12 for an illustration.

2) You on your own is hardly comparable to an airliner full of passengers, is it? You are also not bound by the Flght Manual procedures, company SOPs and Professional responsibility to your pax and crew.

3) Didn't need to discommode anyone? Self-preservation is "discommoding" people? You've had an explosive decompression for unknown reasons and see no need to declare an emergency? How did you know the fuselage hadn't split or fractured or there was some other hazardous damage? Or that a bulkhead had collapsed and could compromise control runs or was shorting cables? I'd have thought mere airmanship (sorry, didn't mean to swear) and prudence would require an emergency to ensure shortest priority routing to the ground lest it gets worse?

[Flyhighfirst]

I don’t get it, twice in my life I’ve had to declare a pan, the person at the other end instantly knew I was in trouble, but it could be dealt with.

I’ve always thought of Mayday being a word which means “I’m in real trouble I’m going to have to do whatever I like for a bit, I expect you to facilitate that”.

Was this a Mayday situation anyway?

I suppose at the time they didn’t know it was a door plug and not structurally significant.

I’d probably have used the M word and debated that afterwards.

I would agree. I would say this probably wasn’t a mayday call event. Which to me means either I need help or I may just stop talking to you all together and do anything I like so get everything out of my way.

I like you probably would call a mayday as well. Hindsight is a great thing. You don’t know why the aircraft depressurised, and even if you know it was the door is there more structural damage.

[Sailvi767]

During my time I had to declare "Mayday" three times. Two of those were in French airspace, going into CDG. After about three conversations in French between ATC and French aircraft, the reply to me was "XXX, say again"


When speaking with French controllers all they seem to say to me is, “Tis not possible”. Is that ICAO phraseology?

[421dog]

Three points.
1) You clearly have a unique understanding of the word "impeccable" as well as a unique understanding of the nature of a correct emergency transmission. ICAO will explain...And listen to the audio in Post #12 for an illustration.

2) You on your own is hardly comparable to an airliner full of passengers, is it? You are also not bound by the Flght Manual procedures, company SOPs and Professional responsibility to your pax and crew.

3) Didn't need to discommode anyone? Self-preservation is "discommoding" people? You've had an explosive decompression for unknown reasons and see no need to declare an emergency? How did you know the fuselage hadn't split or fractured or there was some other hazardous damage? Or that a bulkhead had collapsed and could compromise control runs or was shorting cables? I'd have thought mere airmanship (sorry, didn't mean to swear) and prudence would require an emergency to ensure shortest priority routing to the ground lest it gets worse?

Aircraft was flying, reported a pressurization issue to ATC, told them I wanted the nearest airfield (was over Lake Michigan at the time) and could not think of anything else I could need to be as safe as I could be. Why in the heck should I have started spouting off about emergencies?

[T28B]

Lets hope this doesn’t develop in to a slanging match between USA pilots and the rest of the world.
What did you expect when you chose this title for your opening post?
"US Pilots Reluctant To Use Mayday in Emergencies"

As anyone who has been on PPRuNe for a while could have predicted, it has become just that.

What nobody disagrees with: ICAO standard terminology benefits us all.

Thread closed, since the general population seem unable to help themselves from turning this into yet another a comms hamsterwheel.