The Reality of Seeking a First GA Charter Job

[lilAussieBatla]

Okay I don't want to seem like a Debbie Downer for anyone wanting to pursue aviation as a career but, you need to know just how tough getting that FIRST GA job is. Here's my 2 cents for what it's worth but, I'm in the "trenches" having done my second "wet" up North in the middle of nowhere with aboriginals breaking into my neighbours house once a week (it seems)... still waiting for that elusive ""golden ticket" into the industry via GA.

I haven't been successful finding a GA job so I guess I have failed this mission and want to share my story.

I've completed all my training (CPL, ME IR, ATPL "theory credit", FIR G3, 430 hrs TT). Self funded no silver spoons, no VET fee help. Working jobs, saving and swiping my credit card against every single hour logged in my logbook. I spent time in Namibia looking for bush flying work and no luck there so returned to Oz, trekked to Alice. Got a rental. Tried not to get stabbed at night and did the rounds at all the operators. Was there for a few months - met some pilots and did the whole networking thing. Decided it was time to leave Alice after waking up to someone having set fire to a mattress in my front lawn. If anyone has lived in Alice, you know that scoring a flying job here means putting your life on the line (literally!). Never go out at night! Ventured up to Katherine and stayed there for 2-3 months in a temporary rental. Explored the area, met the few operators that are based there. Again, the crime wave is rampant in Katherine (following the only highway up from Alice). The crime in Katherine is not as bad as Alice but it's still bad. Soldiered up to Darwin and stayed in a hostel for almost 2 months while sticking my head into the operators. Met a few pilots at Shenanigans and it's great (very social)- but for every 1 entry level C210 job that pops up here every now and a blue moon, there's 50-60 pilots waiting to jump on it. Moved out of said hostel and into a caravan park while rinsing and repeating the same behaviour month after month (door knocking, shaking hands, "being friendly", etc) without coming across as a desperate loser. I shot across to Broome (stayed in a hostel for 2 weeks) and then returned to Darwin.

After 12 months of "bouncing around" and settling in to different places for a few months at a time, I decided to get the coveted FIR G3 to try and crack the instructor market. Boy oh boy, it's just as tough! I've come to learn (after finishing) that nobody wants a G3 unless you've had a "gentleman's agreement" with a HOO or CP that they are likely to employ you after you finish the course. I messed up and felt like I wasted almost $25,000 in savings which I earned while working as a labourer. I recently did the IPC which again, waste of money but need to keep all these expensive licence add-ons up-to-date!!

It's also very disheartening when the occasional 23 year old waltzes past you with sub 200 hours and gets a job on the 210 because they are the son of the x who knows xyz. I must say that looking for a GA job is much harder than any flight test or theory exam I've ever done. Nobody really talks about how gruelling it is. Sitting and waiting around for the phone to ring. Sleeping in hostels and caravan parks, or driving through flood waters in the wet season up here to try and catch a CP, or realising that you are just one of dozens of freshly minted CPL'ers on the exact same train as you. Needless to say, almost all the kids floating around up here are on over $100,000 dollars in student loan debt and most of them (90% I'd say), won't find a job in this industry. Just because I see first hand the lack of jobs vs the demand. In a way, I'm lucky because I've used my savings but it's still almost $100,000 spent (over 4 years of self study and saving as a labourer). When I drop into an operator up here once a month or so, I ask them 'how many emails do you get a week for jobs' and their response is something like 100-200!! In person, a half dozen resumes get dropped off at some of these operators every day or so. Obviously you should NEVER email because nobody is going to read it and if they do, it will just get ignored. But picking a town, settling down and waiting is still a huge gamble and the longest stint I have done waiting around is 12 months on a single lease. I've studied my ATPLs while waiting but, I feel like the whole exercise has been a complete waste of time and money.

I looked at the GA ready course purely for "networking" sake and I feel like it's a $5000 networking opportunity. I may consider this but still, most people in the course don't get a job after it.

I wish flying schools were more transparent about this reality. I think more people would re-consider this career path and perhaps buy a house instead, or get into real estate where there is very little barrier to entry and the money you could earn is much more fruitful.

Thanks for reading and I want to remain completely anonymous as I don't want anybody to "black list" me permanently for sharing the "dark' side of trying to land a first GA job.

Again this is my 2 cents for what it's worth.

[whatsyourbeef]

Thanks for your honest and accurate post. Whilst it won’t come as much consolidation, at the very least you have reminded this airline pilot just how fortunate their career path has been despite any self perceived hardships.

Stick at it and stay in touch, you’ll be surprised who from here might be able to help.

I will contend your point about Alice though. I spent a few years there and survived many nights out including a nap or two in the Todd after they kicked us out of the Cas. Great memories.

[Slam and Go]

There's a chance I shook your hand in a certain smokey bar in Windhoek.

I am sorry to hear it didn't work out for you yet

[Switchbait]

Can’t say that path was much different 30 years ago, but stick with it and you have a chance. Give up, and you have none.

It’s never easy, but anything worth doing never is.

All the airlines are hiring, most are constrained by their capacity to train. The vacuum at the top draws everyone up the levels with it.This will be happening for the foreseeable future.

If you really want it, and I suspect you do given the way you’ve gone about it, hang in there.

[Flying Bear]

Thought I'd add a couple of thoughts to this, as the OP seems to have made an effort - although that is more than many of his peers, it appears as though there's something going wrong for him...

As controversial as this may sound - it has actually never been easier to get a start in GA. I am currently sitting in my office looking at my resources & looking for who I can engage to carry us through the next 12 months or so. With the current general movement into the airlines, I am not the only one doing this around northern Australia!

In the past three months, the most recent half dozen pilots we have employed in our Company(s) have all been first-job types (that's all we hire because that's where our operations sit in the industry), all have been sub-250 hours & all had been in the Northern Territory for less than 4 weeks at DOH. They are all full-time, get paid at / above Award & are on a rate of flying of between 600-800 hours per year, depending on how hard they want to drive themselves.

Driving around the whole country, waiting for the phone to ring - even if one hangs around in a location for months - is admirable, but is not the whole story of how to get a "golden ticket". All I can say is that as the CP / HOO of two NT operations, also being deeply involved in the management of two others, I have not heard this story from any of the prospectives walking through my door in the past 12 months or so... therefore I can only suggest that I may have been left off the list!

Nevertheless, a few ideas that might help - based on over 20 years of living / working in the NT:

Based on the OP's intent, the FIR was a waste of time. We actually need an Instructor in our Company (with a balance of charter flying as well) - but we are not keen on pilots who have the rating for simple "hour-building" - you need to have a desire to teach & a sense of service to your trainees if you are to be of any value as an Instructor. Sounds harsh - but it is clear that the OP did not have a motivation to teach when deciding to get the FIR - but in the future, this rating might be the most lucrative (as the FIR is certainly desirable in C&T organisations, etc)
Keep knocking on the doors & if the CP isn't there, or not inclined to see you at that moment (heaven forbid, he might actually be busy!) - then make an appointment & keep trying. From my personal experience, this doesn't happen very often at all...
Listening to podcasts from people who have never worked in the "normal" GA charter space doesn't really help - the people you need to listen to & network with are actually the senior pilots & Chief Pilots of the organisations you are seeking a start from. How does one do this? Knock on the door & make an appointment. Proper networking is NOT going to a pool party in Darwin surrounded by other 200 hour pilots who either don't have a job & are backstabbing every operator in town, or who have just started in a job & are backstabbing every operator in town! Trust me, as employers we are aware that our character gets regularly assassinated - sometimes deservedly so, but more often out of ignorance from those who treat our businesses like an amusement park & carelessly / arrogantly trash our equipment. Think about how you can make a CP feel comfortable that you are not that person.
Other pilots who are looking for work or who are at the same "level" as you in the industry are NOT your friends - many will cut your throat in a heartbeat to secure any advantage. Drink beer & be sociable with them, that's important, but tell them nothing that they could use to "throw you under the bus". Don't believe everything they tell you - the rumour network is rampant at all levels of aviation! Don't succumb to collective negativity - the bigger a group of pilots, the more negativity there will likely be. It's like a "groupthink" phenomenon... employers actually like genuine positivity & as hard as that is to maintain when the hits seem to keep on coming - you will need to find a way!
Be aware that every prospective pilot will absolutely work for the first Company that says "yes" first - keep this in mind when hearing pilots who are bagging out their own, or other, companies. Don't become that person. The healthiest approach is to remember that this is the start of your career, hopefully not the endstate - so enjoy the flying you get in your first job, treat whichever Company it is with respect & take any hardships (real or perceived) on the chin. When the time comes to move on, maintain your integrity - often, the apparent poor attitudes of companies has been shaped by previous pilots burning them on the way out the door. Try to make the journey for those that follow easier by contributing to the GA space, not lamenting it or contributing to its destruction.
DO NOT do the GA Ready Course if you think that it a "buy yourself a job" product. Most don't get a job out of it because there simply just isn't the amount of jobs in the associated companies to provide one to every single comer. However, it can provide decent networking (with some of the relevant people) & helps you "get your name out there" in the local region, but opportunities from that course are still based on the age-old "fit for the business" concept. Regardless of how much money one throws at something, or how many stamps are in the logbook / on the licence - Rule #1 of hiring people still applies. In the case of the OP - there may be a real question of currency / recency - if there has been little or no flying in the past year or so, a potential issue is applying for a job without being current - so the effort needs to be made to ensure that flying skills / recency are demonstrably in place. The GA Course may assist with that as well as provide insight into flying operations in the NT that won't be learned by driving around
When you do get an interview with a CP - tell them about your journey, including any funny / challenging experiences along the way. Most (at least those older than 25...) will be able to empathise, a personal connection helps. I have also extinguished a mattress that has been on fire in my yard, even having had two (not just one) cars stolen from my front yard in the same night... As one of my pilots says, it's a little like dating in high school - first you must do the dance...

Many flying schools ARE very transparent about all this - they are usually the smaller ones that tell you that their role is to prepare you for your first job in industry - which will be flying a clapped out, 40 year old C210 or similar in remote Australia. These schools are usually ignored because unfortunately, at the time of making the "buying decision", the vast majority of about-to-be student pilots don't like that story very much, so they end up at one of the bigger schools with the glossy brochures that use words like "academy", have major airline badges on their wall & describe what their "alumni" are up to... whilst promising that their course will prepare you for an airline. It is only after they have one's money that one comes to realise that unless you are engaged by an airline with a written agreement regarding a cadetship with guaranteed employment into said airline upon completion of training, a flying school can guarantee nothing in that space. In the vast majority of cases, in Australia at least, what prepares you for an airline is the flying (& life) experience gained in GA, coupled with whatever mumbo-jumbo the HR types throw in about behaviour & "tell me about a time when..." - which you can read about elsewhere in these forums.

Anyway, from all this, many on here will know where I sit in the industry - not worried about that so much - but reading the OP made me think it's about time to "re-calibrate" some paradigms & if what I have put here (from the perspective of "the enemy") has assisted in some way for someone doing the "hard yards", then my good deed for the day is done - all before mornos!

Finally, regarding Alice - agree 100% - having lived there for a few years quite a while ago & recently re-visiting on a task... The pilot I was working with had never been before, so late in the afternoon after knock off we strolled across / through the Todd on the way to the casino for a beer. On the way back, it was dark - and although I do recall some previous "naps in the Todd" - you'd be a brave man nowadays to walk anywhere that is not public & well-lit. The place has, sadly, become a dump & something really needs to be done.

[ShandywithSugar]

One of the most legitimate and well written posts here. lilAussieBatla Stick with it. You seem to have the determination.

Flying Bear A great reply.

[compressor stall]

The newbie market might have come off a bit but it’s still better than it was 30 years ago.
Small comfort to you OP as you weren’t born then, but the people employing you were and went through that journey or harder. Consequently expect some empathy but little sympathy to your plight.

[Duck Pilot]

One thing that isn’t taught or talked about to new pilots is diversification with regards to the flying skills.

Pilots generally think that they are only pilots and can’t or don’t want to do anything more than fly, particularly with regards to management and compliance. I don’t mean scrubbing the belly of a 210 to get the dirt and oil off it to make it look good or go faster.

A bit of initiative, ability to get out of one’s comfort zone and salesmanship without bull****ting can reap rewards.

Think what AOC holders need now, most of them require assistance with transitioning to the new ops regs.

Ops manuals require amendments, new procedures need to be developed and safety management systems need to be implemented. Can the average pilot help with any of these new demands? They should be able to if they have a CPL. It’s not rocket science, nor is it hard to learn how to use Microsoft products.

Sadly 90% of the pilots I know and have worked with over the years are absolutely hopeless at doing anything else other than fly planes or helicopters, nor do they have the willingness and initiative to try anything different. It’s all about being in a hurry to get into a big fast shinny jet, or a big helicopter 🙃

[compressor stall]

One thing that isn’t taught or talked about to new pilots is diversification with regards to the flying skills.
….
<snip>
Think what AOC holders need now, most of them require assistance with transitioning to the new ops regs.

Ops manuals require amendments, new procedures need to be developed and safety management systems need to be implemented. Can the average pilot help with any of these new demands? They should be able to if they have a CPL. It’s not rocket science, nor is it hard to learn how to use Microsoft products.



exactly. It’s a consideration for me when shortlisting otherwise equally (licence and hour) qualified candidates, and something I ask about and consider the candidate’s response carefully when across the table.

ESPECIALLY if you’ve gone and done a flying degree.

[the_rookie]

A tip from mine would be to stop moving around so much. Need to be Johnny on the spot. Pick a location and stick to it. ie Darwin or Broome.
When I started out, 3 people were hired in a 12 month period and 2 of those had the job before they arrived into town due family connection. Keep at it, one day you'll reflect on the journey and realise it was well worth it and that flying a piston single around was the best job you ever had.

[lucille]

I’m disappointed that there hasn’t been a response from the OP thanking FlyingBear for the time and effort that he took to write that excellent informative post.

[Sword_2]

Some good replies here already, here's my 2c- timing is everything!

As has been mentioned you need to be on the spot and ready-to-go (& suitably current so you can still perform on a check-flight).

Now is the time to be establishing yourself somewhere for the upcoming dry, with work typically kicking off late March/April.

I'm only just heading out the door of GA into the airline world, but with plenty of mates still in amongst it know that now is the time they're looking over CVs, working out pilot numbers etc, and sorting out start dates etc.

I'd maybe consider Broome/Kununurra and dig in there with a normal job first and foremost (plenty of work going in just about any industry you can imagine). For your first flying job the flying licence is obviously important, but as you've illustrated you haven't really got anything useful to offer people in terms of experience.

I'd sell other skills, have you got a forklift licence, truck licence, RSA? Any kind of mechanical knowledge to help out in the hangar (though this happens less & less). A lot of the GA companies have people wearing many hats, if you can become one of the many with skills completely outside aviation, but which are useful to the business that could help get you through the door. Scenics and stuff thrive on personality, so being able to spin a yarn, being able to talk things up (try telling a spiel about some stripey rocks for the 500th time!)- all of that needs to be able to come across with positivity and enthusiasm.

When I went North about 5 years ago with my wife we sorted a job for her first (niche industry), and that location became "The" town. I reasoned if I didn't get a start I'd just pick up work in something else for a while, and keep trying. (I've got a farm background and truck licence so knew that I wouldn't be out of work if the flying didn't happen).

Anyway, I tried the 3x different operators there- one was a TBNT, another was interview and a scheduled checkflight and the final operator (which I really wanted), didn't have anything for me flying but had something in ops. Their senior pilot at the time counselled me and told me to take the flying gig elsewhere... However, the day before the checkflight, a heap of pilots decided they didn't want to come back for the season at the place I wanted. A role was now available for me, when could I start? It led to some great training, promotions right through the ranks, mates and experiences. We ended up doing almost 5 years there, before heading back to the city!

Anyway keep at it, it is just a numbers game - and all you need is one.

[rodney rude]

When I read sad stories like this I get a little uptight at people on Pprune bagging out the Rex program and telling guys querying the Rex cadetship to walk away, run away etc etc. Pretty much the same money spent but guaranteed multi crew, multi engine turbine time. Surely that's got to beat dodging knives in the Alice.

Aussie Battla - good luck to you mate. Have you tried the RAAF? Great way to get a career going.

[morno]

When I read sad stories like this I get a little uptight at people on Pprune bagging out the Rex program and telling guys querying the Rex cadetship to walk away, run away etc etc. Pretty much the same money spent but guaranteed multi crew, multi engine turbine time. Surely that's got to beat dodging knives in the Alice.

Aussie Battla - good luck to you mate. Have you tried the RAAF? Great way to get a career going.

I’d rather lick poo off the back seat of a 210 than to work for Rex. The ethics alone would put me off Rex. What kind of place where adults work requires you to write an essay about how “motivated” you are to get a flying job :ugh:

[john_tullamarine]

An interesting thread and similar to many others over the years ...

Several of the more experienced folk (eg Flying Bear, Duck Pilot, Compressor Stall; I know who those guys are and they do have lots of runs on the board) have offered good gen suggestions.

A theme which comes through, time and time again when talking with management folk, is along the line of "tell us what you can do (ie offer) which we can use over and above driving aeroplanes (or helicopters)".

That is to say, consider sitting back, over a coffee or two, and reflect on all those things which a small to medium sized operator has to do in order to function and survive. If you have similar qualifications on the flying side to those offered by your competition, and naught else, then you are at an automatic disadvantage. While you must have all the basic necessaries before you get invited through the door for a talk, those sideline skills which may be of use to the potential employer provide an opportunity to distinguish your application from those in the competitors' pile on the desk.

The following is by no means exhaustive but may trigger other thoughts relevant to your particular circumstances and history - the operator probably gets involved with activities such as -

(a) regulatory admin - do you have skills related to dealing with CASA and other relevant statutory bodies ? Do you have experience with AOC setup programs/auditing/training ? Do you have an accounting/book-keeping background ?

(b) maintenance - do you have any maintenance (especially aircraft) exposure/skills/qualifications ? Do you have any weight control skills (especially if you hold a CAO 100.28 WCA - that could save an operator out in the boonies significant labour dollars). Do you have any useful engineering skiils, such as performance work ?

(c) general - do you hold any heavy vehicle licences ? An HR endorsement covers a lot of territory. How about that fork lift ticket ? Do you have any serious IT skills ?

And so it goes on ... If something you can do or are qualified to do (if the ticket is important) gives you a step up if that skill/ticket is of use to the potential employer.

Just a thought .....

[Kagamuga]

Sadly in all too many cases; less than the award pay; creativity in duty hours;

[lilAussieBatla]

I'll be returning to Windhoek in the near future! The flying out there is something special!!

[lilAussieBatla]

Thought I'd add a couple of thoughts to this, as the OP seems to have made an effort - although that is more than many of his peers, it appears as though there's something going wrong for him...

As controversial as this may sound - it has actually never been easier to get a start in GA. I am currently sitting in my office looking at my resources & looking for who I can engage to carry us through the next 12 months or so. With the current general movement into the airlines, I am not the only one doing this around northern Australia!

In the past three months, the most recent half dozen pilots we have employed in our Company(s) have all been first-job types (that's all we hire because that's where our operations sit in the industry), all have been sub-250 hours & all had been in the Northern Territory for less than 4 weeks at DOH. They are all full-time, get paid at / above Award & are on a rate of flying of between 600-800 hours per year, depending on how hard they want to drive themselves.

Driving around the whole country, waiting for the phone to ring - even if one hangs around in a location for months - is admirable, but is not the whole story of how to get a "golden ticket". All I can say is that as the CP / HOO of two NT operations, also being deeply involved in the management of two others, I have not heard this story from any of the prospectives walking through my door in the past 12 months or so... therefore I can only suggest that I may have been left off the list!

Nevertheless, a few ideas that might help - based on over 20 years of living / working in the NT:

Based on the OP's intent, the FIR was a waste of time. We actually need an Instructor in our Company (with a balance of charter flying as well) - but we are not keen on pilots who have the rating for simple "hour-building" - you need to have a desire to teach & a sense of service to your trainees if you are to be of any value as an Instructor. Sounds harsh - but it is clear that the OP did not have a motivation to teach when deciding to get the FIR - but in the future, this rating might be the most lucrative (as the FIR is certainly desirable in C&T organisations, etc)
Keep knocking on the doors & if the CP isn't there, or not inclined to see you at that moment (heaven forbid, he might actually be busy!) - then make an appointment & keep trying. From my personal experience, this doesn't happen very often at all...
Listening to podcasts from people who have never worked in the "normal" GA charter space doesn't really help - the people you need to listen to & network with are actually the senior pilots & Chief Pilots of the organisations you are seeking a start from. How does one do this? Knock on the door & make an appointment. Proper networking is NOT going to a pool party in Darwin surrounded by other 200 hour pilots who either don't have a job & are backstabbing every operator in town, or who have just started in a job & are backstabbing every operator in town! Trust me, as employers we are aware that our character gets regularly assassinated - sometimes deservedly so, but more often out of ignorance from those who treat our businesses like an amusement park & carelessly / arrogantly trash our equipment. Think about how you can make a CP feel comfortable that you are not that person.
Other pilots who are looking for work or who are at the same "level" as you in the industry are NOT your friends - many will cut your throat in a heartbeat to secure any advantage. Drink beer & be sociable with them, that's important, but tell them nothing that they could use to "throw you under the bus". Don't believe everything they tell you - the rumour network is rampant at all levels of aviation! Don't succumb to collective negativity - the bigger a group of pilots, the more negativity there will likely be. It's like a "groupthink" phenomenon... employers actually like genuine positivity & as hard as that is to maintain when the hits seem to keep on coming - you will need to find a way!
Be aware that every prospective pilot will absolutely work for the first Company that says "yes" first - keep this in mind when hearing pilots who are bagging out their own, or other, companies. Don't become that person. The healthiest approach is to remember that this is the start of your career, hopefully not the endstate - so enjoy the flying you get in your first job, treat whichever Company it is with respect & take any hardships (real or perceived) on the chin. When the time comes to move on, maintain your integrity - often, the apparent poor attitudes of companies has been shaped by previous pilots burning them on the way out the door. Try to make the journey for those that follow easier by contributing to the GA space, not lamenting it or contributing to its destruction.
DO NOT do the GA Ready Course if you think that it a "buy yourself a job" product. Most don't get a job out of it because there simply just isn't the amount of jobs in the associated companies to provide one to every single comer. However, it can provide decent networking (with some of the relevant people) & helps you "get your name out there" in the local region, but opportunities from that course are still based on the age-old "fit for the business" concept. Regardless of how much money one throws at something, or how many stamps are in the logbook / on the licence - Rule #1 of hiring people still applies. In the case of the OP - there may be a real question of currency / recency - if there has been little or no flying in the past year or so, a potential issue is applying for a job without being current - so the effort needs to be made to ensure that flying skills / recency are demonstrably in place. The GA Course may assist with that as well as provide insight into flying operations in the NT that won't be learned by driving around
When you do get an interview with a CP - tell them about your journey, including any funny / challenging experiences along the way. Most (at least those older than 25...) will be able to empathise, a personal connection helps. I have also extinguished a mattress that has been on fire in my yard, even having had two (not just one) cars stolen from my front yard in the same night... As one of my pilots says, it's a little like dating in high school - first you must do the dance...

Many flying schools ARE very transparent about all this - they are usually the smaller ones that tell you that their role is to prepare you for your first job in industry - which will be flying a clapped out, 40 year old C210 or similar in remote Australia. These schools are usually ignored because unfortunately, at the time of making the "buying decision", the vast majority of about-to-be student pilots don't like that story very much, so they end up at one of the bigger schools with the glossy brochures that use words like "academy", have major airline badges on their wall & describe what their "alumni" are up to... whilst promising that their course will prepare you for an airline. It is only after they have one's money that one comes to realise that unless you are engaged by an airline with a written agreement regarding a cadetship with guaranteed employment into said airline upon completion of training, a flying school can guarantee nothing in that space. In the vast majority of cases, in Australia at least, what prepares you for an airline is the flying (& life) experience gained in GA, coupled with whatever mumbo-jumbo the HR types throw in about behaviour & "tell me about a time when..." - which you can read about elsewhere in these forums.

Anyway, from all this, many on here will know where I sit in the industry - not worried about that so much - but reading the OP made me think it's about time to "re-calibrate" some paradigms & if what I have put here (from the perspective of "the enemy") has assisted in some way for someone doing the "hard yards", then my good deed for the day is done - all before mornos!

Finally, regarding Alice - agree 100% - having lived there for a few years quite a while ago & recently re-visiting on a task... The pilot I was working with had never been before, so late in the afternoon after knock off we strolled across / through the Todd on the way to the casino for a beer. On the way back, it was dark - and although I do recall some previous "naps in the Todd" - you'd be a brave man nowadays to walk anywhere that is not public & well-lit. The place has, sadly, become a dump & something really needs to be done.

I appreciate the detailed response! So interesting because it's very different to my own experience of meeting dozens and dozens of "green" CPL guys that are just floating around with one guy getting called up for an interview. I don't know the formal statistic but from my own experience, there seems to be dozens of guys in Darwin/Alice/Katherine for every 1 job available. If you are an operator then I've most definitely been in your office (and more than once!). However I have never shared the details of my story in my job hunt and quite frankly, not seeking sympathy or compassion as I understand many are in my shoes - I am nobody special! I guess I am more determined and persistent then most (which hasn't yet paid off...)

I've read through your points and they are useful. I definitely can relate to the general "throw you under the bus" phenomenon. I've told a few guys about jobs that have popped up (one managed to get a job and I've never heard from that guy again!). You're probably right about the FIR intent however, I did study teaching at uni then quit to get into the trades. I do enjoy teaching but yes, my initial intent of an FIR was to use it as a "last resort" to get into the industry but not necessarily for "build hours for the airlines".

I still may consider the GA ready course as a "last last resort". It's another $5,000 investment and with the amount of money I've already spent, I'm just not sure I can keep throwing money into something (on top of the thousands needed to keep current/recent etc). I'll probably end up doing it because of the sunk-cost fallacy at play.

On the Alice note, it's a rough place! If anyone wants to know - go to YouTube and take a look. The airport worker in the next suburb from me had his tyres slashed and a death threat left on his window. It's not uncommon to see groups of 10-20 young aboriginal youths smashing windows, lighting fires, and terrorising the streets (mainly at night). It has become much worse in the last 10 years so I'm told - with that crime wave making its way up to Darwin via Kath. Seeing a mattress lit in my front lawn was the last straw for me. Some people can judge me for "jumping around and not staying in the same place for a job" but, come and spend time in Alice waiting for a GA job and let me know in 3 months if someone hasn't attempted to steal your car or set your letterbox on fire. Katherine was another place I didn't want to spend a lot of time in... for similar reasons but it's not as bad as Alice (yet). Katherine is another place to not leave your house at night. Even during the day, nobody walks down the main street of Katherine. While I was there, someone tried to set fire to the petrol station! So - again - when people say that I should stay LONGER in these places, I'm not sure if they've ever been there or spent much time there in recent times.

Thanks again for your post. It was insightful.

[lucille]

I wonder if any of us would have ever thought of publicly documenting our numerous serial disappointments over the courses of our respective careers?

The OPs tales of woe are not unique and they never were.

Truth is, nothing beats a rich, connected Daddy or Mummy to kickstart ones career. Without this, the rest of us had to rely on perseverance and luck. The longer you persevere, he luckier you get.

[lilAussieBatla]

I’m disappointed that there hasn’t been a response from the OP thanking FlyingBear for the time and effort that he took to write that excellent informative post.

Yeah I have but my responses are taking a while to get approved by the moderators.

[Framcicles]

Exmouth WA is another spot worth looking into. Generally looked at as one of the starting areas for WA pilots - I’ve just finished 2 seasons up there.

Usually the best time is around Nov/Dec when they start looking for pilots for the next season but still well worth a shot. Norwest (Shark Bay) Aviation, Ningaloo Aviation, Coral Bay (not sure exactly who runs it down there) and Ningaloo Whaleshark Swim are all options worth a look.

[mikewil]

I still may consider the GA ready course as a "last last resort". It's another $5,000 investment and with the amount of money I've already spent, I'm just not sure I can keep throwing money into something (on top of the thousands needed to keep current/recent etc). I'll probably end up doing it because of the sunk-cost fallacy at play.


Do you mind if I ask how much heavy Cessna time you have (by 'heavy' I mean C206, C210 or even C182)?

Given that you are considering one of these courses, suggests that you may not have any. If this is the case, there is your answer right there.

I have spoken to a number of GA Chief/HOO's and their number 1 biggest gripe with low hour CPLs looking for work is that they have never flown a heavy Cessna (or even a C172 in many cases). If you go up there with 10-20 recent-ish hours in at least a C182, you will stand out against all the others who have gone right through to CPL and beyond having flown nothing other than a DA40.

You may think an aeroplane is an aeroplane (which it is), but in many cases I have seen it take over 10 hours to get a DA40 CPL holder comfortable with smoothly handling and flying a tidy circuit in a C182 (and this is time/money that one of these employers doesn't need to spend if the guy next to you has something like "C206: 5 hours / C182: 15 hours / C172: 50 hours" on his or her resume.

So believe it or not, in this day and age with what the sausage factory flying schools are pumping out, C206 / C210 time (or at least C182) is actually a big selling point for a new starter. And bonus points if you actually did a chunk of your training or general flying on the humble old C172.

And please don't spend $5000 if it will only get you 5 hours. You don't need to do a "course", you just need to find somewhere that will do a few hours dual to get you comfortable in it then hire it for a few hours and for your $5K you should have over 10 hours in something relevant.

[zegnaangelo]

Do you mind if I ask how much heavy Cessna time you have (by 'heavy' I mean C206, C210 or even C182)?

Given that you are considering one of these courses, suggests that you may not have any. If this is the case, there is your answer right there.

I have spoken to a number of GA Chief/HOO's and their number 1 biggest gripe with low hour CPLs looking for work is that they have never flown a heavy Cessna (or even a C172 in many cases). If you go up there with 10-20 recent-ish hours in at least a C182, you will stand out against all the others who have gone right through to CPL and beyond having flown nothing other than a DA40.

You may think an aeroplane is an aeroplane (which it is), but in many cases I have seen it take over 10 hours to get a DA40 CPL holder comfortable with smoothly handling and flying a tidy circuit in a C182 (and this is time/money that one of these employers doesn't need to spend if the guy next to you has something like "C206: 5 hours / C182: 15 hours / C172: 50 hours" on his or her resume.

So believe it or not, in this day and age with what the sausage factory flying schools are pumping out, C206 / C210 time (or at least C182) is actually a big selling point for a new starter. And bonus points if you actually did a chunk of your training or general flying on the humble old C172.

And please don't spend $5000 if it will only get you 5 hours. You don't need to do a "course", you just need to find somewhere that will do a few hours dual to get you comfortable in it then hire it for a few hours and for your $5K you should have over 10 hours in something relevant.

Yeah I really never understood why someone would learn in a DA-40. I mean it costs more, but doesnt accomplish anything more? If one wanted class experience, just do it in a G1000?
Having said that I did my training in a Grob 🥹🥹 not sure what that will accomplish for a CPL looking for work

[Kundry]

OP - same here mate. I went up to Darwin in 2021. Spent a week in a sharehouse then found a job cleaning rooms at Cooinda. The rest is history.

So far I've had more leads from talking to people rather than fronting up to places with a resume. No matter how remote the operator is, there will always be dozens of resumes on the desk. I got pretty depressed in 2022, I had no job for about a month and I was living in my car during the build up. I don't like to talk about it too much because I know nothing is owed to me and happiness is in my control.

When I was 19 I was a spotty teenager who didn't have many social skills, confidence, knowledge and experience aside from a CPL. After leaving home and going to the top end I learnt how to drive a forklift, mix 2 pack paint, use a whipper snipper, use Opera PMS, how to talk to people as a "customer service" person, how to work with people you don't like. Caught some big queenies, saw some big crocs, lost about 30 B52s, walked through landscapes so beautiful I started writing bloody poetry about it, bought a 4WD with all the money I had then drowned it a day later, impelled backpackers, repelled locals etc. Whether I found a flying job or not, at the end of the day my opinion is that a drive out bush is invaluable personal development for any young Australian.

That being said, I am a lot happier now that I'm not moping around the top end waiting for a call. There are opportunities east coast, even more so with the movement going on now. I'm getting close to 500 hours now, have free accomodation, get paid a little bit and fly every day (roughly 300hrs per year). My advice for any CPL holders disenchanted with the first job search is to stick it out. Hiring is not fair. It's absolutely right place at the right time, or being mates with someone in power, that dictates your success. Keep searching for opportunities. After having a range of non-flying jobs, some which I left after 2 weeks, to others I stuck out for ~5 months, I couldn't imagine doing anything other than flying as a job. For me finding a job as a pilot became do-or-die. My father always talked about the future and what where we should be as a family - none of which came to fruition. I knew it before, but after my father died it became even more apparent, that this is it - there is no time other than now to work towards a goal. Go stick your resume as an advert on the gate of a country airfield. Call up a drop zone and ask them if they need a pilot. Work at a maintenance shop, offer to work for free if you're young and have no skills (some will detest this but why should you be paid if you have nothing to immediately offer?). You can either keep doing what is not working (putting your resume on a stack of others), or have some humility and put yourself out there.

[RobCl]

​​​​​Work at a maintenance shop, offer to work for free if you're young and have no skills (some will detest this but why should you be paid if you have nothing to immediately offer?)​​

You don't have nothing to offer, you have a licence that cost you 100k+, you have life experience, you are providing your labour to someone else so they make a profit and you need to put food on your table and roof over your head.

You are a commercial pilot. Part of being a professional is getting paid for your work. Do not under cut others or you are as bad as the back stabbers Flying Bear spoke about.

[the_rookie]

So - again - when people say that I should stay LONGER in these places, I'm not sure if they've ever been there or spent much time there in recent times.

Pump the brakes here fella. Good way to get on the wrong side of people

[outnabout]

Excellent advice, Flying Bear and Mike Wils.

My 2 cents worth:
if looking for a job, contact the company, and ask for their minimums. Then make sure you meet them.
As a rough guide, a resume that includes the following will stand out:
100 hours command
5-10 hours in a C100 series. No serious commercial GA operator does scenics in a low wing.
Current CPL (don’t go for a check ride if you haven’t flown in the last 30 days. Skills degrade much quicker than any of us like to admit. If you are brushing up, at the very least, do some cross wind, flapless and short field. Don’t just slam it onto the tarmac three times and call it job done.
Current Class 1 medical.
Current ASIC.
Current DG.
Current A&OD training (it’s a free course, offered online by CASA, so no excuse not to have it).

Really want to stand out?
Get yourself a Senior First Aid certificate.
Contact a local maintenance training organisation and ask to be trained on how to change an oil filter, the oil, a spark plug, a tyre, and a battery - as a minimum All perfectly legal, if you are trained, and will pretty much put your resume in the top 5 of the pile on the HOFO / CP desk.

Then when you contact a company, use your manners.
Introduce yourself - it’s astounding how many people don’t introduce themselves now at the beginning of a phone call.
Ask if the CP has a few minutes rather than assuming the CP is sitting around fat, dumb, and happy just waiting for your call.
Sell yourself - I am a new CPL, looking for a job. What I can offer you is….(what sets you apart from every other resume that’s crossing the desk’).
Even if there is no job happening, the phrase “thank you for your time” goes a long way.

Pro tip:
if you send in a resume, and you have accidentally addressed it to the wrong company / wrong person (or something similar), and the company points it out - don’t give up. Own it - yes, I made a mistake.
Correct it, and re-submit it.
Part of any evaluation in aviation is observing how you recover from a mistake.
So if you make a mistake, own it, and - very importantly - learn from it, you have proven to the potential employer that you can take criticism, you are willing to learn from it, and you are willing to try to improve,

Any newly qualified pilot who thinks he / she knows it all, and can learn nothing in GA, is a danger to themselves and everyone around them.

[IO520L]

offer to work for free if you're young and have no skills (some will detest this but why should you be paid if you have nothing to immediately offer?)

hmmm maybe the CPL you’ve spent 80-100k of your own money on that cost the operator nothing? Maybe that’s what you immediately offer??

in all seriousness do not offer to work for free, it makes the overall conditions in GA worse for everyone, it will actually make a lot of people NOT want to hire you, and lastly if it is an operation that is happy for you to work for free chances are that’s not the only thing there that’s illegal/dangerous.

[RobCl]

Some people can judge me for "jumping around and not staying in the same place for a job" but, come and spend time in Alice waiting for a GA job and let me know in 3 months if someone hasn't attempted to steal your car or set your letterbox on fire

One piece of advice I always give people heading north is to pick a town where you can live without being a pilot for a year plus quite happily. This avoids the jumping around. Personally I talk up Broome and Darwin for different reasons (smaller town but cooler v bigger city vibes; both with enough operators who will take fresh CPLs) as places to go and just base yourself. Get a casual job somewhere, get a rental (having an address in town looks good) and just keep at it. I have a friend who took over a year to get their first job, I got mine within a week. But they got into companies throughout their career with quicker progression. They now have a jet command, I don't.

So my other piece of advice is try not to think short term and definitely don't compare yourself to those around you. Your career will progress like a manual car driven by an L plater. It will leap forward, then stall, leap forward then stall. It's hard to evaluate how it's going until you get to the end of the road!

[421dog]

Go find somebody who flies 208’s, and sucker yourself into the right seat. They are easier to fly than 172’s, and the guy in the left seat will likely let you fly while he naps. It is so much easier than the days when we were flying 402-404’s….

[Kundry]

hmmm maybe the CPL you’ve spent 80-100k of your own money on that cost the operator nothing? Maybe that’s what you immediately offer??

in all seriousness do not offer to work for free, it makes the overall conditions in GA worse for everyone, it will actually make a lot of people NOT want to hire you, and lastly if it is an operation that is happy for you to work for free chances are that’s not the only thing there that’s illegal/dangerous.

lol of course. I think the obtusity of internet communication is coming out here. I just meant, a few days, or a month spent in a maintenance workshop, even if you aren't paid, can set you up with invaluable skills. If you are 18 and never touched a tool before or are in the financial position to hang around a shop and be taught for a certain period of time. I have approached shops and asked for any trade assistant work but I can see why they never got back to me - if the shop is busy with brake pad changes and oil changes but you've never done one, what do you offer worth paying? put it this way, if time is your currency, then sometimes it is more valuable to trade it for knowledge and skills rather than money. again, not talking about flying for free. as we know, that is something you spent $80k to learn.

[blvkpanther]

I've been reading the posts in these forums for a few years now, but felt compelled to sign up to reply to this thread specifically. As someone who was in a similar boat only a few short years ago (2021), I thought my experience might be of use to yourself or others. For context, I'm now employed overseas on a widebody.

The advice already shared by others here is spot on, but here's my story.

I got my CPL in February of 2020 and then covid shut down interstate borders the next month. I lost my job due to the restrictions and spent the rest of the year in jobs that I had no interest in doing. I'll admit that during this time when searching for these jobs, I had a "perspective" problem. Employers obviously want to invest in an individual that they will see a return of investment on. I made the mistake of highlighting that I was a pilot (qualifications on my CV) and undoubtedly this gave the impression that I only needed the job as long as it took to find a job in the aviation industry. For every 20-30 non-aviation jobs that I applied for, I got 1-2 replies. It took several months of being unemployed before I removed my pilot qualifications off of my CV and shortly after I found myself in stable, full time employment (this story becomes relevant later).

Towards the end of 2020 I got my MEIR and began looking for jobs. I got myself up to Darwin in 2021 and got a job working as a ground handler. Like yourself I made all the effort that was required and recommended by those that came before us. I called the operator, asked to talk to the CP/SBP and if they weren't available I asked for his/her name and the email address that I could forward my CV through to. I went to Officeworks and printed off 100 copies of my CV/Cover Letter on better quality paper and put them in plastic sleeves so that it would make more of an impression. I dropped into most of the operators weekly and gave them a new CV to add to their pile. I even rented a 172 and flew down to Katherine to drop CV's off down there. I managed to meet most of the Chief Pilots/Senior Base Pilots and tried my best to get a foot in the door but I was always a day late (they just interviewed yesterday). I had 30+ hours in both the 206 and the BE55 but only 200TT. I was told by a CP that the reason I didn't get called in to interview was because he had plenty of higher time guys wanting the same job.

Being 2021 and during the middle of covid, I was probably fighting a tougher fight. I am in no way trying to discredit your struggles or efforts, but objectively, there was zero movement in the industry and LOTS of pilots out of work.

After six months of trying, I began looking outside of Darwin and at other opportunities that involved being able to fly a plane. I began searching 'Rural & Outback Jobs' Facebook groups for potential pilot listings and started contacting pastoral companies that had previously advertised for pilots. That is how I got my first job as a "mustering" pilot. I put my stuff in storage, packed the car and drove 60+ hours to a remote station in WA, 400km from the nearest supermarket. I ended up flying 1,100 hours in 14 months.

This was a tough and humbling experience but also one of the most enjoyable periods of my life. If I wasn't flying, I was climbing and fixing windmills or working with the livestock. During our busy periods, our day would start before sunrise and would often times finish after sunset. In one month, I flew 156 hours and only had three days off (being a private operation this was legal). In slower periods, I asked for time to clean out the hanger and the plane (washed the 30+ year old, crusty wool seat covers) and put together a QRH (there wasn't one in the aircraft) and cheat sheets for the pilots that would come after me. I became good friends with the station manager during this time and, in his recent history, I was the longest employed station pilot he'd had. I subsequently went on to fly in PNG and work for an Australian 121 operator.

I say all this to make this point: The single factor that is more important than, the types of aircraft you've flown or how many hours you have in your logbook, is your attitude (I fear I may have just said something controversial on PPRUNE).

Every 200 hour pilot, everywhere, trying to get their first job is more or less equally qualified. You could've done your entire CPL training in a 210, have a HR/forklift license, senior first aid certificate and when you fart it smells like Chanel, but if you have the wrong attitude, you'll undoubtedly have difficulty getting a start. Going back to my own experiences and earlier story, employers want to invest in an individual that they will see a return of investment on. They're also the ones that have to spend time with you in the office and in the aircraft training you. We're all overworked and underpaid and the last thing any of us want to do is interact with a colleague/employee that believes they are "better" or "too good" for the task/job/aircraft that is asked of them (any time spent in the industry or on these forums and you'll know the type of individuals that I refer to..). Any operator can spot this before you walk through the door.

OP, I am in no way insinuating that you fall into this camp. Personally, I sympathise with you as I've been in your shoes. I admire your dedication to get a start in the industry and I wish you the best of luck. I'll reiterate what others have said, absolutely do not spend the $5,000 on doing the GA Ready Course. If you're established in Darwin with accommodation and a job, I'd probably not relocate again. As others have said, if you don't have any 206/210 time, it might be worth getting yourself in one for a few hours to get a bit of experience. Keep in mind, there are plenty of other jobs for entry level pilots, prawn/whale/fire spotting, pastoral companies, low/high level survey, powerline inspection etc.

No matter where you get your first job, try to add value and or leave it better than you found it. By this, I don't mean work for free, but if you see or feel that something can be done better or more efficiently, write up some suggestions and put it forward. If the hanger is a mess or the oil bottles need refilling, do that little bit extra and be willing to step in to help others when and where they need it. Having this attitude/mindset and being humble and willing enough to follow through with it will show your character as an individual (this is what operators are looking for).

Genuinely try to enjoy the flying and the experiences you're going through and (most importantly) remain positive because this is just the first speedbump in what will be a long and bumpy career. You'll fly for a terrible operator or two, you'll be taken advantage of and you run the risk of being furloughed at any sign of the economy taking a down turn.

But one day you'll be cruising at FL380 and you'll look back at the struggles of finding/surviving your first GA job through rose tinted glasses and probably wish you could still be doing it.

[Avio323]

OP, here's a perspective you won't often hear but is worth considering.

The reality is that a lot of people don't ever get that first GA job and even those that do, many (myself included) walked away from the industry after 12 months of working. Things may have changed in recent years (I doubt it), but it was a bad enough experience for me to entirely bin my emotional, financial and time investment in aviation and to then do a further 4 years of study to change my career path entirely.

As others have mentioned it's not all to do with the operators either, GA pilots were for the most part backstabbers who would climb over anybody else for progression and the small town culture was a cesspool.

If I had my time again, I would have just paid the dollars and went the cadet path from day one. Everyone I knew who did this at the time, the closest any come to GA was a stint as safety pilot on a metro and were all fast tracked to a RHS turboprop or jet job.

Sometimes I get the itch, especially when I hear 'pilot shortage', but then I come back here for a reminder that nothing has really changed...

[421dog]

lol of course. I think the obtusity of internet communication is coming out here. I just meant, a few days, or a month spent in a maintenance workshop, even if you aren't paid, can set you up with invaluable skills. If you are 18 and never touched a tool before or are in the financial position to hang around a shop and be taught for a certain period of time. I have approached shops and asked for any trade assistant work but I can see why they never got back to me - if the shop is busy with brake pad changes and oil changes but you've never done one, what do you offer worth paying? put it this way, if time is your currency, then sometimes it is more valuable to trade it for knowledge and skills rather than money. again, not talking about flying for free. as we know, that is something you spent $80k to learn.


So I’m a Surgeon. Our Mantra is: “see one do one teach one”. That’s pretty much my intro into commercial aviation. I hit up a local flight instructor who had a night gig at a check flying operation to fly in the right seat of a 402 (on the qt)
As I had the appropriate ratings, after a couple of flights, I was interviewing with the chief pilot wi in a couple of weeks, did my check ride and got the job.

[hazza4257]

Have you considered looking overseas at all? I'm rapidly approaching completion of CPL myself and wondering if it's almost a better prospect considering the dire reports I'm hearing from new CPLs like yourself.

All the best and all I can suggest is keep at it and you'll eventually get your break. If you know this is what you want to do and no other career will satisfy you, it's not a matter of if but when.

[lilAussieBatla]

Have you considered looking overseas at all? I'm rapidly approaching completion of CPL myself and wondering if it's almost a better prospect considering the dire reports I'm hearing from new CPLs like yourself.

All the best and all I can suggest is keep at it and you'll eventually get your break. If you know this is what you want to do and no other career will satisfy you, it's not a matter of if but when.

Yes I have. In Botswana, you need a minimum of 500 hours to even be looked at. It used to be 200 hours but local pilots kicked up a stink so the minima is 500. Over in Namibia, it's much "easier" but still very tough. It's the same story over there, you arrive for a maximum stay of 90 days and just hope you get a break without having to leave the country. But you also cannot be seen to be "looking for work" on a tourist visa. So you need to pretend to be a tourist, if you know what I mean.

I'm about to book a trip to head over to Papua and sit there for a bit. It will be my third country outside of Oz trying to get that lucky break.

[lilAussieBatla]

OP, here's a perspective you won't often hear but is worth considering.

The reality is that a lot of people don't ever get that first GA job and even those that do, many (myself included) walked away from the industry after 12 months of working. Things may have changed in recent years (I doubt it), but it was a bad enough experience for me to entirely bin my emotional, financial and time investment in aviation and to then do a further 4 years of study to change my career path entirely.

As others have mentioned it's not all to do with the operators either, GA pilots were for the most part backstabbers who would climb over anybody else for progression and the small town culture was a cesspool.

If I had my time again, I would have just paid the dollars and went the cadet path from day one. Everyone I knew who did this at the time, the closest any come to GA was a stint as safety pilot on a metro and were all fast tracked to a RHS turboprop or jet job.

Sometimes I get the itch, especially when I hear 'pilot shortage', but then I come back here for a reminder that nothing has really changed...

I "sense" that in my limited experience door knocking until my knuckles bleed, so to speak. I helped two fellow students in my class when they struggled to fly a simple ILS in the sim - one failed their flight test. I was coming into the school after hours to help them (I had already passed my flight test). They both managed to get jobs and I've never heard from them again (I've asked if they could submit my resume- one never responded and the other said 'not hiring'!). I guess the lesson here is "the world owes you nothing even if you give it something". I've come to learn that if you don't already know someone in the company that you are trying to apply for, you have a very SLIM chance (<10%) of getting a job.

There was a case where one dude put his resume into an Operator up here and then told his mate about the same job. The mate went into the Operator and told the HOO the original dude wasn't interested in the job anymore, then submitted his own resume over the top! Dirty tactics of trying to get that first job.

[kingRB]

As others have mentioned it's not all to do with the operators either, GA pilots were for the most part backstabbers who would climb over anybody else for progression and the small town culture was a cesspool.



It doesn't stop at GA - the rest of your career into the airline industry is no different. Neither is it anywhere else in employment. That's life mate.

[mikewil]

There was a case where one dude put his resume into an Operator up here and then told his mate about the same job. The mate went into the Operator and told the HOO the original dude wasn't interested in the job anymore, then submitted his own resume over the top! Dirty tactics of trying to get that first job.

Pretty slimy thing to do, but that could surely go pretty badly if the original guy approaches the HOO again and asks for an update only to be told "such and such said you weren't interested anymore". When the HOO/other crew at the company know what kind of a slime bag you are, you might be not be looked at very favourably for the rest of your time there.

[megan]

It doesn't stop at GA - the rest of your career into the airline industry is no different. Neither is it anywhere else in employment. That's life mateIt's how people are motivated, worked at a job that was highly sort after, good remuneration, life style, no night flying other than for emergency work, and was on a AFAP GA award, troops went to the pub on Friday after work and socialised by way of dinner at each others place and BBQ's. Then the company made us staff, that's when the knives came out as salary was now predicated on a yearly performance report, oh, and no more sessions at the pub, dinners or BBQ's

[Clare Prop]

hmmm maybe the CPL you’ve spent 80-100k of your own money on that cost the operator nothing? Maybe that’s what you immediately offer??

in all seriousness do not offer to work for free, it makes the overall conditions in GA worse for everyone, it will actually make a lot of people NOT want to hire you, and lastly if it is an operation that is happy for you to work for free chances are that’s not the only thing there that’s illegal/dangerous.

Working for free and sham contracting both mean that you are not covered by Workers Comp, get no Super etc. In these days of Fair Work legislation, it is a lot more risky for employers to commit wage theft as one report could set them up for years of back pay which would bankrupt them, and serve them right.

But pilots are told "they will never work again" if they stand up for themselves. Unfortunately if you have already accepted sub standard wages you aren't in a position to object later on. So if they don't offer award wages (as a minimum) then just thank them and walk away, and join the Union.

However I still hear reports from people who have said they had no chance of getting a job when the more privileged applicants being supported financially by family could afford to work for nothing or hang around airports being a pest, so that anyone who actually has to work to keep body and soul together and run a car etc has a huge disadvantage compared to the silver spooners even before any job is forthcoming.

[kingRB]

It's how people are motivated, worked at a job that was highly sort after, good remuneration, life style, no night flying other than for emergency work, and was on a AFAP GA award, troops went to the pub on Friday after work and socialised by way of dinner at each others place and BBQ's. Then the company made us staff, that's when the knives came out as salary was now predicated on a yearly performance report, oh, and no more sessions at the pub, dinners or BBQ's

People are always motivated by self interest. That never changes. Whatever circumstance you're talking about just proves that. How is "highly sort after / good remuneration / life style" congruent with the GA award? All you had was a group of people that were doing what they had to until they had enough experience to leave - not some socialist utopia where no one is trying to compete like you think it was.

[megan]

How is "highly sort after / good remuneration / life style" congruent with the GA award? All you had was a group of people that were doing what they had to until they had enough experience to leaveIt was a very unique operation that was highly sort after because it was the pinnacle of the particular GA industry, only two pilots ever left to move into other areas of GA. Todays captain salary in the particular job is $260,000.

[Killer Loop]

Todays captain salary in the particular job is $260,000.

No wonder the job was so sought after.

[777xpilot]

Whats wrong with the GA ready course? I've heard people talk about it on the forums. Heard its the best way to get 5 hours of 210 time in Darwin because apparently 210s are scarce there for new pilots?

[mikewil]

Whats wrong with the GA ready course? I've heard people talk about it on the forums. Heard its the best way to get 5 hours of 210 time in Darwin because apparently 210s are scarce there for new pilots?

You can go and get 10 hours on a C206 for the amount they charge for 5 on a C210 in the GA ready course. I'd probably opt for more hours unless you already have C206/C182 time.

[rudestuff]

I'm amazed that no one has mentioned the obvious route into aviation. Nearly anyone with the cash can go to the US on an F1 visa, train as an instructor and come home with 1500 hours. It should be especially attractive to Australians who can stay indefinitely on an E3 visa and walk straight into a regional jet job. I genuinely don't understand why someone would chose not to go where the jobs are plentiful.

[hazza4257]

I'm amazed that no one has mentioned the obvious route into aviation. Nearly anyone with the cash can go to the US on an F1 visa, train as an instructor and come home with 1500 hours. It should be especially attractive to Australians who can stay indefinitely on an E3 visa and walk straight into a regional jet job. I genuinely don't understand why someone would chose not to go where the jobs are plentiful.

Sounds like this comment I received yesterday while asking a question in a GA facebook group:

"We have a CASA to FAA conversion course and high demand for CFIs. Convert your license and complete instructor training in the USA. Instructors fly 80-100hrs a month so you can reach ATP minimums within 18 months of arriving.
We have a pathway program to Skywest who are taking applicants as they reach ATP minimums. They are also offering a $15,000USD tuition reimbursement to put towards your training and conversion.
So from where you are now, to flying Jets in about 18 months.
Email [email protected] for more information."

Thoughts?

[rudestuff]

What is there to think about? There is a pilot shortage in the US and a pilot surplus in Oz. To be a pilot you need 4 things: Licence, experience, the right to work & opportunity. Thanks to the E3 visa anyone with an Australian passport and $100,000 is pretty much guaranteed to be flying a Jet in 3 years.

[hazza4257]

What is there to think about? There is a pilot shortage in the US and a pilot surplus in Oz. To be a pilot you need 4 things: Licence, experience, the right to work & opportunity. Thanks to the E3 visa anyone with an Australian passport and $100,000 is pretty much guaranteed to be flying a Jet in 3 years.

True. I found 100k under the couch just this morning so I guess I'm good to go. Is that USD or AUD?

In all seriousness it's very attractive but I'm not that hyperfixated on getting a seat in an airliner overnight. Happy to go the GA route, which is "the best times of your life" and pretty challenging flying by all accounts.

[PiperCameron]

In all seriousness it's very attractive but I'm not that hyperfixated on getting a seat in an airliner overnight. Happy to go the GA route, which is "the best times of your life" and pretty challenging flying by all accounts.

The best, the worst and everything in between.

Here's but one example:
https://youtu.be/pboGo_FEEe4?feature=shared

[hazza4257]

The best, the worst and everything in between.

Here's but one example:
https://youtu.be/pboGo_FEEe4?feature=shared

Many thanks. I can never seem to find much aussie GA content on YouTube

[aussieflyboy]

Shoal Air advertising on the AFAP Jobs Page. A basic first job GA company that should have 10 Pilots living in Kunnerz right now waiting for the tourist season to start. There’s no reason why they should need to advertise. Gorges would be flowing, fish biting and plenty of exploring to be had!

[megan]

There’s no reason why they should need to advertiseUnless things have changed it is a legal requirement to advertise. Applied for one advertised job and another chap got the nod, was told by the company that a further job would be advertised in three months and not to bother about it because I had it.

[rudestuff]

True. I found 100k under the couch just this morning so I guess I'm good to go. Is that USD or AUD?
USD/AUD Does it matter? Read that as 'however much you need to get a CPL' - which clearly you've already got if you're finishing up your CPL.

The point I was making is that given a suitable amount of money, as an Australian you had the choice to train in Australia and spend years driving around the top end looking for elusive jobs, or train in the US, work as a flight instructor and jump into the RHS at 1500 hours. It's too late for you now but maybe not for someone else considering the industry. I know which option I would have taken.

[PiperCameron]

The point I was making is that given a suitable amount of money, as an Australian you had the choice to train in Australia and spend years driving around the top end looking for elusive jobs, or train in the US, work as a flight instructor and jump into the RHS at 1500 hours. It's too late for you now but maybe not for someone else considering the industry. I know which option I would have taken.

And although it's a busier, crazier, more competitive place to be, the US also offers flight in genuine high-density altitudes and regular FIKI right down to the ground, neither of which we get much of over here so arguably you'd be a more experienced pilot by the end of your 1500 hours (assuming you made it out alive)..

[Horatio Leafblower]

Unless things have changed it is a legal requirement to advertise. Applied for one advertised job and another chap got the nod, was told by the company that a further job would be advertised in three months and not to bother about it because I had it.

Mate it's not the public service. There is no obligation to advertise any position in the private sector.

[megan]

Horatio, thinking back it was 1977 when unions had the big, big multi national by the short and curlies, it may have been the unions requirement when the word "legal" was used to me.

[seavenom]

Just out of interest, how much do you weigh?

[tail wheel]

Unless things have changed it is a legal requirement to advertise.

Explain???

Mate it's not the public service.

Under certain circumstances it is not necessary to advertise externally in the public service.