Network EBA

[ShandywithSugar]

Voting closes today, and the results are due for the EBA.

Anticipating the outcome to truly ascertain whether a rising tide lifts all boats, albeit at a reduced overtime rate.

Still curious as to the motives of one prolific poster , member for 14 years and 100 posts on one PIA thread ...

[dusty99]

57% No. Well that's a great suprise.

[1234fly]

Time to stick it to QF IR.

[RealSatoshi]

57% No. Well that's a great suprise.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x600/when_youre_failing_af3c6de786_8ee2d335a5b2b900542254df8f5099 d23c1467ce.jpg

[LostontheLOC]

Congratulations to everyone involved it was definitely the right decision!

And congratulations to "I am in need of a changes" family. They will benefit from this greatly.

[1234fly]

Some very sour network lifers walking around T3/T4 tomorrow. Keep your eyes peeled.

[Icarus2001]

Congratulations to the boys and girls at Network. A good outcome. I really would like to see if IB does not get you a better outcome. A hard decision but well done.

[aussieflyboy]

Time to stop screwing around. Back to PIA.

Improved OT dollars.
Backpay
Bonuses

[walesregent]

Some very sour network lifers walking around T3/T4 tomorrow. Keep your eyes peeled.

Two or three notable cases but most were pretty enthusiastic no voters

[Chronic Snoozer]

Was it a greater No vote than the previous ballot? What do you think the reason for the difference is?

[SandyPalms]

Greater participation maybe?

Good on you guys applause emoji

[soseg]

Was it a greater No vote than the previous ballot? What do you think the reason for the difference is?

54% no, and now 57%

Unsure how many voted both times.

[LostontheLOC]

Time to stop screwing around. Back to PIA.

Improved OT dollars.
Backpay
Bonuses
And up that base pay!

[Chronic Snoozer]

54% no, and now 57%

Unsure how many voted both times.

Cheers. Groundswell for a better deal perhaps.

Never could quite understand why someone wouldn’t or didn’t vote.

[Swept-Wing]

Well done to all the boys and girls who made the right decision to no doubt eventually improve the futures of all your colleagues, and I'm sure inevitably the industry as a whole.
Not an easy decision I'm sure with the back pay and other threats being thrown around however whatever route this goes, be it IB or PIA, I'm sure the outcome can only improve.

[Slippery_Pete]

I’ve been a pretty vocal critic of Network pilots accepting crap deals for years.

I am now prepared to swallow my pride and say that this time - they’ve absolutely proven me wrong. Congratulations to you all.

What a crystal clear message you’ve sent to Qantas IR. This level of unity within different pilot groups has rarely been realised in Australia until now.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, QF’s strategy of playing pilot groups off against each other (“if you don’t agree to this deal then we’ll give the new jets to someone else”) - is now officially dead in the water.

Network pilots have stood up and are demanding to be recognised as the group of professional and talented pilots they are.

NJS guys and girls - take note. Australian pilots are standing together.

I Need Of A Change … you’d better head back to the drawing board. No KPIs for you.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Interesting that this is the third NO vote.

First NO was in the 90’s I believe, threats started.
Second NO vote 54%, threats continue.
Third NO vote 57%, more threats????


Could it be that pilots are fed up with the BS from these corporate bullies?

P.S. The company is more afraid of IB than we are…

Stay the course guys, amazing work!

[MikeHatter732]

P.S. The company is more afraid of IB than we are…

Absolutely. The precedent this may set for all future EA's is huge.

Great work NAA guys, we all owe you a beer!

[CaptCloudbuster]

Great work NAA guys, we all owe you a beer!

Let’s not be sexist!

We also owe a Shandy for the gals🍻

[Chronic Snoozer]

Let’s not be sexist!

We also owe a Shandy for the gals🍻

Now that’s irony.

[aviation_enthus]

I’ve seen a copy of the agreement recently voted on, can anyone tell me why it says “F100/E190” on the pay scales?

Has it actually been stated E190’s are a planned F100 replacement?
(logic would say yes, but this is aviation!)

A reasonable assumption could be made that Alliance in WA will be all E190’s one day (given they already operate them), but for Network that’s a new type.

[Jester64]

Still 43% are as clueless and piss-weak as I need a change. And that’s a disappointing amount of people.

[aussieflyboy]

There are always going to be people who vote Yes.

1. Younger folks who are new to the game and don’t know what an EA is or its implications.

2. Older folk who just need a few more years until retirement and don’t want to shake the boat in case their work stops/base closure/ect.

3. FOs who think they’ll get looked upon favourably at CMD upgrade time.

4. Capts who think they’ll get looked upon favourably at Trainer selection time.

5. Family people who are worried about base closures at a financially important time (new house/kids.

Most of these things are irrelevant to a result of a Pilot EA vote and if QF want to close a base or reduce work the EA won’t affect it but you can’t tell some people that…

I’ve always thought the AFAP should have a brochure explaining what an EA is and its affects ect. and send it out to new starters so there’s a better understanding of it all.

[Ladloy]

There are always going to be people who vote Yes.

1. Younger folks who are new to the game and don’t know what an EA is or its implications.

2. Older folk who just need a few more years until retirement and don’t want to shake the boat in case their work stops/base closure/ect.

3. FOs who think they’ll get looked upon favourably at CMD upgrade time.

4. Capts who think they’ll get looked upon favourably at Trainer selection time.

5. Family people who are worried about base closures at a financially important time (new house/kids.

Most of these things are irrelevant to a result of a Pilot EA vote and if QF want to close a base or reduce work the EA won’t affect it but you can’t tell some people that…

I’ve always thought the AFAP should have a brochure explaining what an EA is and its affects ect. and send it out to new starters so there’s a better understanding of it all.
6. Those wishing for backpay before jumping ship.

[soseg]

#3 and #4 do they not realise the vote is anonymous?

[Sameoldsameold]

Network sounds like an awesome place to work. Obviously a great culture……if you just do what everyone else does and don’t voice an opinion contrary to the popular narrative.

[ShandywithSugar]

#2 and #5 Base closure? :ugh: and what , send the work to mainline? I'm sure the crews would welcome some day trips again.

All quiet on the Western Front , the yatch name KPI remains moored and under contract in Balmain no doubt.

Anyone seen INOAC? #6 no doubt applicable.

[dr dre]

#2 and #5 Base closure? :ugh: and what , send the work to mainline? I'm sure the crews would welcome some day trips again.


I think that poster is referring to pilots in any company who’ll always vote Yes to an EBA in general, not specifically this EBA.

I remember a story in a previous life about a pilot who loudly proclaimed to management that he would proudly be voting Yes to a fairly rotten EA most disapproved of. A few month later he got a management job and a training role out of the blue, so this type of thing happens.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Threatening base closures have been a mainstay for IR when it comes to contractors or subsidiaries with bases spread around the country. It usually pops up around this time or whenever pilots have the audacity to expect decent working conditions.

As we’ve seen however, QF tend to close bases whenever someone sneezes, only to reopen them a few years later. You could work for free and give away all of your rights and still have your base rug pulled out from under you.

Hang tough, we’re worth more!

[walesregent]

Threatening base closures have been a mainstay for IR when it comes to contractors or subsidiaries with bases spread around the country. It usually pops up around this time or whenever pilots have the audacity to expect decent working conditions.

As we’ve seen however, QF tend to close bases whenever someone sneezes, only to reopen them a few years later. You could work for free and give away all of your rights and still have your base rug pulled out from under you.

Hang tough, we’re worth more!

I could be proven wrong but it seems like >50% won’t vote yes to any ‘zero cost increase’ proposal. Whatever anyone says about IB I don’t think Fair Work will place this limitation on a contract. Also it would involve fantasy accounting to claim that the last proposal didn’t actually involve a cost increase so we may as well hold out until they offer something good now that they have crossed that threshold.

[1234fly]

Guy and girls on the ground are talking about a 5 day stop work this month to pressure qf into some action. Hopefully the unions can make this happen!

[dusty99]

Guy and girls on the ground are talking about a 5 day stop work this month to pressure qf into some action. Hopefully the unions can make this happen!

Heard this on the vine as well from pals there. Stick it to them. Sooner the better IMO.

[Window heat]

It’s heartening to hear Network pilots standing up for better treatment. My understanding is that the deal over West is quite substandard by any measure. QF IR need a reset, pronto, the Joyce brain fart on wages must be assigned to the bin, where it belongs. The SH mainline EA looks as if it may be another bruising encounter for them. The LH mainline EA will be a fist fight.

Keep it up folks.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I've been down a rabbit hole and came across this quote from Captain Sullenberger, 2009, some 15 years ago. It still resonates.(My bold)Members, I attempt to speak accurately and plainly, so please do not think I exaggerate when I say I do not know a single professional airline pilot who wants his or her children to follow in their footsteps. I am worried that the airline piloting profession will not be able to continue to attract the best and the brightest.The current experience and skills of our country’s professional airline pilots come from investments made years ago, when we were able to attract the ambitious, talented people who now frequently seek professional careers elsewhere. That past investment was an indispensable element in our commercial aviation infrastructure, vital to safe air travel and our country’s economy and security. If we do not sufficiently value the airline piloting profession and future pilots are less experienced and less skilled, it logically follows that we will see negative consequences to the flying public and to our country.

We face remarkable challenges in our industry. In order to ensure economic security and an uncompromising approach to passenger safety, management must work with labor to bargain in good faith, we must find collective solutions that address the huge economic issues we face in recruiting and retaining the experienced and highly-skilled professionals that the industry requires and that passenger safety demands.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-111hhrg47866/pdf/CHRG-111hhrg47866.pdf

[Red69]

Keep up the good fight lads/gals. Shut them down again if you have to. It’s about time the aviation unions harden up and become more like unions of other industries in this country. Just have a look at what’s going on with the ports.

https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/13/dp-world-port-dispute-how-damaging-is-this-to-australias-economy-and-will-it-push-up-prices

[gordonfvckingramsay]

If port workers have been on the same T&C slippery dip that workers in most other industries have, the economic damage really lies with the sheeple CEOs who caused it. Furthermore if Australia hadn’t shut down all manufacturing citing the cost of staffing, we would be somewhat immune to the cost of importing things we can (and should) make here.

Staff are not a cost, they’re an asset.

Keep it up!

[Chronic Snoozer]

Not all manufacturing has been shutdown. Australia still manufactures red tape and non-gendered text.

[Ladloy]

Not all manufacturing has been shutdown. Australia still manufactures red tape and non-gendered text.
The two previous governments had the opportunity to bring high tech manufacturing to Aus, but here we are. The brain drain continues.

[HongKongflu]

Time for another strike, the message just isn't getting through. Fair work have approved it, C'mon AFAP !

[geeup]

Sounds like a stop work is required.
That would send a clear message

[Buttscratcher]

Sure.....but it would be easier to send that message if the other East Coast Link operators hadn't caved and bent over.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Not all manufacturing has been shutdown. Australia still manufactures red tape and non-gendered text.


Haha, very true.

Have the company come back with any form of response to the latest (of 3) no vote?

[DirectAnywhere]

Give them a chance - management are still emerging from their Christmas hibernation. Nothing of substance happens anywhere until after 26th January.

[BO0M]

Sure.....but it would be easier to send that message if the other East Coast Link operators hadn't caved and bent over.

What other East Coast operators? Seems operations that are fully Qantas owned were the only ones sent to do large numbers of flights, Alliance did a massive 1 flight! You can't have a crack at other operations pilots who have zero choice on what they are rostered to do or called out to do. Especially when Network had it's own pilots working RDOs to cover.

[framer]

Sure.....but it would be easier to send that message if the other East Coast Link operators hadn't caved and bent over.
You guys are running a nice consistent line. The message is clear. From the inside I imagine it feels like a big deal. From the outside it looks like a measured and consistent approach, nothing crazy just a consistent message. No big deal, just a system working as intended.

[Buttscratcher]

Not my point , BO0M.
I'm just saying that Qantas Link and Qantas mainline managers need a strong wake-up call from the all the folks who actually do the real work.

[Mithzaron]

Network Aviation currently recruiting outside the minimum requirements. Sub 1000 hour SEA drivers and no ATPL theory credit held.

Thoughts on the impact this will have on bargaining?

[walesregent]

Network Aviation currently recruiting outside the minimum requirements. Sub 1000 hour SEA drivers and no ATPL theory credit held.

Thoughts on the impact this will have on bargaining?

Hard to say. No one has ever accused them of behaving rationally so it possibly won’t be the expected reaction. Captains might start taking personal leave more regularly as a means of risk mitigation, but that will most likely only affect the travelling public as the company will divert resources accordingly to protect charters. Maybe more consequentially CASA might say they need to bump the experience level up a few notches and that can’t be done on the cheap. I don’t really see that happening, though, unless there is an exodus from the left seat (not impossible).

I’d say the biggest motivator the company has is that their clients are starting to get a bit twitchy and want this resolved yesterday, which is significant considering how much Pilbara transport matters to the Australian economy.

[framer]

I’d say the biggest motivator the company has is that their clients are starting to get a bit twitchy and want this resolved yesterday
How many mining charter flights are Network doing per week? Is that number forecast to increase or decrease?
​​​​​​​

[soseg]

How many mining charter flights are Network doing per week? Is that number forecast to increase or decrease?


It’s about to increase with a new contract they’ve just secured and the 319 arriving.

[walesregent]

How many mining charter flights are Network doing per week? Is that number forecast to increase or decrease?


100-110 returns (not sure how consistent that is but that seems like a pretty normal number), mostly on the 320. Not sure whether those numbers will change but lots of 319s on the way would suggest they will go up

[BO0M]

Not my point , BO0M.
I'm just saying that Qantas Link and Qantas mainline managers need a strong wake-up call from the all the folks who actually do the real work.
On that we both agree but your comment was pretty clear about east coast operations. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the intial comment becasue forums and written word isn't nuanced, but until Network has nobody on the inside working RDOs to make the point they can't point fingers elsewhere.

Believe it or not the flights that were performed by east coast operators were apparently hard enough to crew as people were suddenly unwell. All pilots in OZ support (should) what's going on with Network and the pilots fight for better wages but Oz as a whole won't improve if ALL pilots don't quickly realise the fight is with companies not fellow workers.

[framer]

so about 30 flights a day that QF can’t really muck around with without running the risk of losing valuable business. They’ll have fun trying to crew them from other group airlines that’s for sure. From a business point of view you are as valuable if not more than any other QF pilot group at the moment.

[Slippery_Pete]

They don’t even have to do the strike action.

Just notify Fairwork that they plan to, wait for QF to move a bunch of mitigating assets (airframes and crew) to the west coast in the days prior - and then cancel the industrial action the night before.

They’ve played groups against each other for so long now - perhaps it’s time the AFAP played the same game.

It’s about to increase with a new contract they’ve just secured and the 319 arriving.

You’re assuming they’re going to be able to crew them.

From the cheap seats, that appears impossible unless they start reading the room and stop offering an agreement where people who work overtime only get half pay 😂

Any potential applicants to NAA are putting the final nail in their mainline aspirations. Internal group airlines are a career dead end. Better off going to Rex or a GA company for a few years and then joining mainline.

​​​​​​​Thoughts on the impact this will have on bargaining?

I think the impact on safety is much more important. Watch the contracts get cancelled en masse when this 750 hour experiment ends with a bent airframe.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Of course the scariest form of PIA for management doesn’t necessarily include strike action. Rejection of and defects/deferrals, rejection of any extension beyond originally rostered duty, rejection of any duty change, no tankering, no reduced thrust takeoff, rejection of visual approaches and/or track shortening…..the list goes on. All we need is for the AFAP to mount up and bring these IR thugs down a notch.

Keep going guys!

[walesregent]

I think the impact on safety is much more important. Watch the contracts get cancelled en masse when this 750 hour experiment ends with a bent airframe.

Not even on their radar. To them safety and industrial issues have no overlap. If it’s approved by the regulator it will be good enough for them (and if it’s good enough for them it will get approved by the regulator).

[Buttscratcher]

BO0M, I wasn't talking about the friggin' strike!
FFS, to put it plainly, I would have hoped all Q subsidiaries kept voting NO until these bloated pricks realise our worth.

[neville_nobody]

Not even on their radar. To them safety and industrial issues have no overlap. If it’s approved by the regulator it will be good enough for them (and if it’s good enough for them it will get approved by the regulator).

Mining companies don’t work like that. They have their own independent safety advisors who will set the standards.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Not even on their radar. To them safety and industrial issues have no overlap. If it’s approved by the regulator it will be good enough for them (and if it’s good enough for them it will get approved by the regulator).

CASA and the ATSB (very conveniently) separate what they perceive to be industrial issues from safety issues too, even when they are intimately entwined. If mining companies see it differently, then QF have some work to do if they want to keep these money spinner contracts.

[YeahNup]

Any potential applicants to NAA are putting the final nail in their mainline aspirations. Internal group airlines are a career dead end. Better off going to Rex or a GA company for a few years and then joining mainline.

That's just plain bullcrap. A steady stream of pilots is moving across to mainline from Network regularly. Why do you think people should join Rex or go to a GA company for even less money and worse conditions than the ones you reckon are so bad at Network?

[neville_nobody]

That's just plain bullcrap. A steady stream of pilots is moving across to mainline from Network regularly. Why do you think people should join Rex or go to a GA company for even less money and worse conditions than the ones you reckon are so bad at Network?

Freedom and control over your career. It has always been the case forever. You can't tell me that if Network get really tight for pilots to the point of flight cancellations and you have a Mainline start date that you will be on that course. Now do you think that will do that to a Virgin, REX, GA or International applicant?

[soseg]

That's just plain bullcrap. A steady stream of pilots is moving across to mainline from Network regularly. Why do you think people should join Rex or go to a GA company for even less money and worse conditions than the ones you reckon are so bad at Network?
No. They are not wrong.

Go ask those network pilots moving across when they first put their applications in.
Then throw in that from the moment you join a subsidiary like NAA there is an 18 month window before you can either apply or interview. (Someone else can clarify this).

Internals get held. Especially captains or check and trainers. Anyone who is in short supply will get trickled out.

Externals from Rex, VA etc have jumped hundreds of internals. I’ve seen one person leave Q Group and go elsewhere, and then reapply for QF and jumped all their internal former work colleagues by as much as two years for a QF start.

[Slippery_Pete]

That's just plain bullcrap. A steady stream of pilots is moving across to mainline from Network regularly. Why do you think people should join Rex or go to a GA company for even less money and worse conditions than the ones you reckon are so bad at Network?

You couldn’t be more wrong. There’s pilots that have waited over five years on the internal hold, and have watched hundreds of externals from GA and REX leap-frog them because the subsidiary won’t release anyone. That reluctance is likely to worsen as the pilot shortage kicks in and bottom paying operators like NJS and NAA have big crew shortages.

You can join NAA, get two year’s experience to become competitive, get on the hold and wait another five years - total seven years.

Or you can go to Rex, do two years on the SAAB, get on the external hold, and start a month later.

I 100% stand by my comment. If you want to get into mainline, joining a subsidiary is a really crap and slow way to go about it.

Oh and if you get on the internal hold while at NAA/Link/NJS and decide to resign to speed things up, your hold file spot gets binned and you have to start the entire process again with no guarantees. It’s a gamble most aren’t willing to take, and it allows the group to trap people into subsidiaries.

Of course, that whole equation changes (for pilots and for Qantas attracting and retaining pilots) if they pay subsidiaries better rather than treating them like third class citizens. Suddenly people might see value in joining a subsidiary.

[YeahNup]

Freedom and control over your career. It has always been the case forever. You can't tell me that if Network get really tight for pilots to the point of flight cancellations and you have a Mainline start date that you will be on that course. Now do you think that will do that to a Virgin, REX, GA or International applicant?
Certainly not the way it is at the moment.

[morno]

Certainly not the way it is at the moment.

What’s your definition of “a steady stream of pilots”?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Certainly not the way it is at the moment.


Nothing like being wrong to get someone to stfu.

At least one of the Links has one individual with his hands on the ‘who goes to mainline’ lever, and due to a forecast huge increase in pilot number, the lever is firmly in the no position. It hasn’t occurred to them or QF that retention requires something attractive about the job, not continual disappointment. If you ever want to work for mainline, except for a tiny few who have made it through via a subsidiary, don’t work for any of the group airlines.

Keep pushing!

[neville_nobody]

At least one of the Links has one individual with his hands on the ‘who goes to mainline’ lever, and due to a forecast huge increase in pilot number, the lever is firmly in the no position. It hasn’t occurred to them or QF that retention requires something attractive about the job, not continual disappointment. If you ever want to work for mainline, except for a tiny few who have made it through via a subsidiary, don’t work for any of the group airlines.

I will point out that unofficially that has always been the policy. This country's industry is so small that basically QF control everyone's career whether you like it or not. In the past I am also aware of smaller operators colluding with QF to stifle Pilots leaving. Up front operators are competing but behind the scenes there is a lot of collusion. Interesting that the competition watchdog only seems to worry about pricing and not the labour market.

[framer]

Any news out of WA?

[walesregent]

Any news out of WA?

Not really. Member feedback is still being sorted then will be given to the company from which they will probably bless us with a position statement. Not sure how this further lengthy delay is affecting the business or staff retention but it’s probably not been favourable.

[framer]

Thanks Wales.
Does anyone know how many Airline EBA’s are going to be negotiated in Australia in 2024?

[dijon moutard]

Hi
Vara new EBA (which covers the A320/F100/B737) just signed and approved last week with FWA with substantial boosts in allowances (RDO payments which includes a RDO payments plus minimum of 4 hours productivity rate or the greater of the actual hours flown/productivity hourly rate outside the buffer/productivity hourly rate/Roster Overtime hour rate kicks in and lowered to 57.5 hours for a 4 week roster) and Salary boost with backpay and a Sign-On bonus .

And new agreement negotiations starting again shortly next month

Cheers
Buddy

[MikeHatter732]

Latest FO job advert dropped today.

Requirements are laughable.

As a First Officer with Network Aviation, you’ll have;


A minimum of 500 hours total aeronautical experience
An Australian ATPL (A) or an Australian CPL (A) with passes in all Australian ATPL Theory subjects
Australian Multi-Engine Aeroplane Instrument Rating with IAP 2D and 3D endorsements
Multi-crew Cooperation Course (MCC) or experience in a multi-crew operation
A current CASA Class 1 Medical
ICAO English Language Proficiency Level 6 on your CASA Licence
The ability to pass a Qantas pre-employment medical and drug and alcohol test
The ability to hold an Aviation Security Identification Card (ASIC)
A current passport with unrestricted access to all Qantas ports of call with at least 12 months validity
Australian citizenship or the right to work in Australia / New Zealand without restriction or sponsorship

[dr dre]

Latest FO job advert dropped today.

Requirements are laughable.

Didn’t they just drop to 750hrs TT? I can’t see how the drop to 500hrs is going to help widen the pool, it’s like they were taking charter pilots or instructors with less than a year’s operational experience and now requiring 3 months less than that.

[Icarus2001]

It would also open the door for ex military pilots, mostly low hours.

Five hundred hours is a great deal more than most FOs start their first jet job with in Europe and UK. Probably SE Asia as well.

[soseg]

Didn’t they just drop to 750hrs TT? I can’t see how the drop to 500hrs is going to help widen the pool, it’s like they were taking charter pilots or instructors with less than a year’s operational experience and now requiring 3 months less than that.

Pretty sure it was officially 1500 TT with 500 twin. But they were interviewing and hiring people below it. Now it’s official.

Imagine how stupid the 43% of yes voters feel now.

You network pilots hold the power and almost half of you are giving in and afraid of the IR bs.

[framer]

Imagine how stupid the 43% of yes voters feel now.
No thanks. Rather than filling my head up with crapola I’m going to think of something encouraging to say to all the pilots sticking together in the West………
Good work Network and Vara pilots, I’m going to drink half a box when you sign it up in celebration of your efforts!

[soseg]

No thanks. Rather than filling my head up with crapola I’m going to think of something encouraging to say to all the pilots sticking together in the West………
Good work Network and Vara pilots, I’m going to drink half a box when you sign it up in celebration of your efforts!

Yeah give the yes voters who caved in too quick a pat on the back. Everyone gets a medal. Hooray. Mr positive.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/642x477/images_12__8e33a353d920ea92905208b296213f0a99fb5892.jpeg

[CaptCloudbuster]

Setting up for the 1st QF Academy Grad?

[framer]

Yeah give the yes voters who caved in too quick a pat on the back. Everyone gets a medal. Hooray. Mr positive.
Nah just trying to highlight that you brought up divisive stufff out of the blue. It sets the whole show back.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

No thanks. Rather than filling my head up with crapola I’m going to think of something encouraging to say to all the pilots sticking together in the West………
Good work Network and Vara pilots, I’m going to drink half a box when you sign it up in celebration of your efforts!

There is no lack of support for those who have banded together, and there never will be. The 43% who folded without any significant threat to their careers don’t really deserve to be applauded for their choices regardless of whether it was their right to do so or not. Voting to stop the cancer in the industry has been proven to work recently, as we have and will continue to see.

[framer]

Nobody applauded them for their choices.

[framer]

Right, I now have 35 minutes on a train so I’ll explain why Soseg’s negative comments about the 43% annoyed me and then I’ll leave it alone.
Let’s say that the Network pilot group is split into ‘group A ‘ and ‘group B’ where group A is the 43% and B is the 57%. ( no point in including abstentions).
The best outcome for Network pilots, and to a lesser degree all Australian pilots, is if A and B get along, they are communicating with each other and able to join forces and pull in the same direction when it is needed. The worst thing for Network pilots is if hate and vitriol develop between group A and B because human nature requires most people to dig in, to become entrenched in their position and make decisions not based on the relevant facts in front of them, but on their instinctual connection to their group. The decisions become emotionally determined rather than logical and it makes it very difficult for the average human to change camps ( especially if they are adult males). That resistance to listening and to changing from group A to B increases in line with the animosity and adversarial comments.
A while back there was a challenging moment in the relationship between A and B ( that’s fine, same as all relationships) and now something good is happening, and naturally the sting of the challenge dissipates as the weeks roll by……..until someone in group B fans the embers.
The smart thing to do, the intelligent thing to do, the mature thing to do for the health of the relationship ( and therefore the advancement of pilot terms and conditions in Australia) is for group B pilots to control their emotions and comments and let time time do its thing so as to allow an easier path for group A pilots to change camps. Not all will but it’s the best chance of the best outcome.
Purposely highlighting the differences in a denigrating way, out of context, is the opposite of what’s needed. Ie it slows the advancement of pilot terms and conditions in Australia. What’s required is really easy, just stay mute on anything that splits the pilot group.
That’s my take anyway. I’m impressed with the cohesion displayed and wish you all the best from the East.

[walesregent]

Right, I now have 35 minutes on a train so I’ll explain why Soseg’s negative comments about the 43% annoyed me and then I’ll leave it alone.
Let’s say that the Network pilot group is split into ‘group A ‘ and ‘group B’ where group A is the 43% and B is the 57%. ( no point in including abstentions).
The best outcome for Network pilots, and to a lesser degree all Australian pilots, is if A and B get along, they are communicating with each other and able to join forces and pull in the same direction when it is needed. The worst thing for Network pilots is if hate and vitriol develop between group A and B because human nature requires most people to dig in, to become entrenched in their position and make decisions not based on the relevant facts in front of them, but on their instinctual connection to their group. The decisions become emotionally determined rather than logical and it makes it very difficult for the average human to change camps ( especially if they are adult males). That resistance to listening and to changing from group A to B increases in line with the animosity and adversarial comments.
A while back there was a challenging moment in the relationship between A and B ( that’s fine, same as all relationships) and now something good is happening, and naturally the sting of the challenge dissipates as the weeks roll by……..until someone in group B fans the embers.
The smart thing to do, the intelligent thing to do, the mature thing to do for the health of the relationship ( and therefore the advancement of pilot terms and conditions in Australia) is for group B pilots to control their emotions and comments and let time time do its thing so as to allow an easier path for group A pilots to change camps. Not all will but it’s the best chance of the best outcome.
Purposely highlighting the differences in a denigrating way, out of context, is the opposite of what’s needed. Ie it slows the advancement of pilot terms and conditions in Australia. What’s required is really easy, just stay mute on anything that splits the pilot group.
That’s my take anyway. I’m impressed with the cohesion displayed and wish you all the best from the East.

Largely agree- mocking someone with an alternative viewpoint is seldom productive. For me the outcome of the last vote (57% no) was close to as encouraging as the first one (~93% no) because it was an increase in the no count in spite of a gruellingly long process, an unambiguous endorsement of a yes vote by AFAP and an almost certainly better deal than has thus far been presented. I’d say it shook the company close to as much as the outcome of the first vote, too.

[junior.VH-LFA]

It would also open the door for ex military pilots, mostly low hours.

Five hundred hours is a great deal more than most FOs start their first jet job with in Europe and UK. Probably SE Asia as well.

No one in the military could afford the paycut to work at Network on their current EBA.

[Tbot]

No one in the military could afford the paycut to work at Network on their current EBA.

The network EBA is bad, but it ain’t that bad.

[junior.VH-LFA]

The network EBA is bad, but it ain’t that bad.

Some misconceptions about modern military pay. The average 10 year officer coming to end of contract in the RAAF is clearing $170k without super, medical, housing, 7 weeks leave or allowances being added to the mix.

The outflow valve is still open but for people going to Atlas, Mainline, etc - and it’s not because of pay, but workplace culture generally.

[Upgraded]

Some misconceptions about modern military pay. The average 10 year officer coming to end of contract in the RAAF is clearing $170k without super, medical, housing, 7 weeks leave or allowances being added…..

Just confirming $170,000AUD before tax?

[framer]

Clearing would suggest after tax no?

[junior.VH-LFA]

Just confirming $170,000AUD before tax?

Before tax. Perhaps naivety on my part but are salaries often expressed in post tax form?

[Global Aviator]

Before tax. Perhaps naivety on my part but are salaries often expressed in post tax form?

It’s just the way it is written. Is clearing 170k to me says after tax.

Ahh the Engrish language.

Good to know as I had no idea what military pay was!

[junior.VH-LFA]

It’s just the way it is written. Is clearing 170k to me says after tax.

Ahh the Engrish language.

Good to know as I had no idea what military pay was!

Ah yep, I see what you mean, my apologies - poor choice of words.

The way the current pay system is designed, the last couple of years before your ROSO (contract) ends, you end up getting a $10k jump every year. The pay when you’re starting out isn’t spectacular but very deliberately ramps up as you’re getting closer to being able to move on.

[Upgraded]

Before tax. Perhaps naivety on my part but are salaries often expressed in post tax form?

Not often in an Australian PAYG context.

But on this site pilot salaries are often reported in a net sense to produce direct comparison between two jobs especially when they are in different tax jurisdictions (think Aus vs UAE).

It’s conceivable that Mil salaries could include significant tax free compensation so good to clear it up.

[josephfeatherweight]

It’s conceivable that Mil salaries could include significant tax free compensation so good to clear it up.

Unfortunately a common misperception - full-time, permanent ADF members pay normal tax rates - unless they are deployed in certain "war-like" theatres.

[Hello123]

About the only "special deal" the military get now days is a relatively high level of super (23% after 7 years and 28% after 20 years). Unfortunately MSBS closed to new members in 2016.

[YeahNup]

Nothing like being wrong to get someone to stfu.

At least one of the Links has one individual with his hands on the ‘who goes to mainline’ lever, and due to a forecast huge increase in pilot number, the lever is firmly in the no position. It hasn’t occurred to them or QF that retention requires something attractive about the job, not continual disappointment. If you ever want to work for mainline, except for a tiny few who have made it through via a subsidiary, don’t work for any of the group airlines.

Keep pushing!
2 per month is not wrong and is rightfully considered a steady stream. As for STFP? I just have better things to do than be here with you 24/7, indulging in conspiracy theories and spreading toxicity the way you do.

Carry on

[cLeArIcE]

2 per month is not wrong and is rightfully considered a steady stream. As for STFP? I just have better things to do than be here with you 24/7, indulging in conspiracy theories and spreading toxicity the way you do.

Carry on
Yeah 2 per month while people from virgin Rex etc get ahead (years on the seniority list) whilst your stuck getting treated like **** by your QF subsidiary. No appreciation for years of service to the group, no respect, no nothing. Just another example of "we couldn't care less about you, stupid worker peasant."
Look I don't care, I didn't take the job, for some it's worth the wait. What I do know is that it's just another reason I will never care one bit about the company and will only do anything to benefit myself.

[ShandywithSugar]

They Them c'mon now! Everyone knows the fastest way to Qantas isn't from anyone else in the group.

Seems now the e190 contractors have got a taste for leaving bags and going international , well until the A220 comes.

Mineral Resources announced they're flying Brisbane direct to Kens Bore and Wodgina mine sites. More pieces of the puzzle fall into place.

[walesregent]

They Them c'mon now! Everyone knows the fastest way to Qantas isn't from anyone else in the group.

Seems now the e190 contractors have got a taste for leaving bags and going international , well until the A220 comes.

Mineral Resources announced they're flying Brisbane direct to Kens Bore and Wodgina mine sites. More pieces of the puzzle fall into place.

even a few of those will thicken the roster up a bit for anyone clinging to the notion that getting paid bottom dollar in someway guarantees lifestyle

[LostontheLOC]

Absolutely amazing news out of the west today, Good luck everyone!

[A320 Flyer]

Absolutely amazing news out of the west today, Good luck everyone!

care to share?

[YeahNup]

care to share?

The doodoo has hit the fan.

[WhiteNight]

Is this correct that Qantas want to take pilots to court because they are asking for better than low cost carrier conditions? While they make record profits? Taking pilots to court. Seriously? Shameful. Good luck to those involved. Glad I choose a different path.

Shameful.

[HEALY]

Rumours of a EK PER base?

[walesregent]

Is this correct that Qantas want to take pilots to court because they are asking for better than low cost carrier conditions? While they make record profits? Taking pilots to court. Seriously? Shameful. Good luck to those involved. Glad I choose a different path.

Shameful.

Yes, or at least to arbitration. Or they want us to think that’s the case anyway. They probably don’t want any of it but they do want pilots making irrational choices out of fear. Courageous move if they actually want to relinquish control to commissioners who will feel in no way compelled to comply with the Qantas wages policy.

EK rumours add an interesting twist to the saga.

[walesregent]

The doodoo has hit the fan.

Meh, they haven’t thrown it with much conviction. It tends to spray pretty indiscriminately too and we are a fair bit more used to being hit with it than they are.

[Gnadenburg]

Rumours of a EK PER base?

CX too. 😂

[spc98075c]

Any link to the news?

[CaptCloudbuster]

Any link to the news?

I’m sure it will be thoroughly covered by the Roo New’s team of investigative journalists :ok:

[dejapoo]

I’m sure it will be thoroughly covered by the Roo New’s team of investigative journalists :ok:

Is it on Yammer???? #mymagicplace = Paraburdoo call out as skipper on $65/hr

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Yes, or at least to arbitration. Or they want us to think that’s the case anyway. They probably don’t want any of it but they do want pilots making irrational choices out of fear. Courageous move if they actually want to relinquish control to commissioners who will feel in no way compelled to comply with the Qantas wages policy.

EK rumours add an interesting twist to the saga.

This sums it up! QF are not going to risk the backlash if they have some token win against one of the only cohorts that has been under continuous attack when that cohort is suddenly in dwindling supply. And if true, these Aussie, base rumours are going to accelerate this problem, the balance of power is shifting significantly…fast. The pilot shortage that some have always said we are so well insulated from is on our doorstep. To make matters worse, I mean better, Atlas has also suggested they may throw in a pretty generous USD travel allowance for those who don’t want to live in the US, but want to have all the benefits of better pay and conditions without the IR bullsh!t.

QF are about to see how sticking to their mindless dogma and winning every battle will
be their demise.

The titanic didn’t sink because it hit an iceberg, it sank because it couldn’t change direction.

[dr dre]

Courageous move if they actually want to relinquish control to commissioners who will feel in no way compelled to comply with the Qantas wages policy.



FWC will probably only increase wages in line with their own annual reviews of modern awards. Last year it was 5.75%, but was less in previous years.

They only need to apply the “BOOT” test vs the award and not against other EAs.

[framer]

I don’t think it’s quite that simple but happy to be shown how I am wrong;
I don’t think this is for a determination, but for a declaration, correct? With a declaration the commission can specify a post-declaration negotiation period in an intractable bargaining declaration. This allows the Commission to continue to assist parties to resolve the dispute
If it does get to a Determination then I think it is a risky call for Qantas.

When making an intractable bargaining workplace determination, the Commission must take into account:

the merits of the case
the interests of the employers and employees who will be covered by the determination
the significance of any arrangements or benefits in an enterprise agreement that applies to the employees and employers immediately before the determination is made
the public interest
how productivity in the relevant enterprise(s) might be improved
the reasonableness of the conduct of the bargaining representatives during bargaining
the extent that bargaining representatives have complied with good faith bargaining requirements, and
incentives to continue bargaining at a later time.


In my mind the ‘significance of any arrangements or benefits’, and the ‘reasonableness of the conduct ‘ and the ‘ extent that reps have complied with good faith bargaining requirements’ could be viewed in many ways.
For example, how will a Full Bench view the Qantas Groups willingness to allow the contract to languish below the award for so long in light of the recent nationwide sentiment around Qantas and the treatment of employees?
Would a Full Bench consider that the ‘good faith’ requirements have been met? Did the representatives remain communicative and responsive throughout?
It’s a very interesting time politically to be handing any control to the Fair Work Commission.
​​​​​​​Can someone confirm that this is just for a declaration and not a determination?

[dijon moutard]

FWC will probably only increase wages in line with their own annual reviews of modern awards. Last year it was 5.75%, but was less in previous years.

They only need to apply the “BOOT” test vs the award and not against other EAs.

Hi
That’s not quite correct : they will apply both the BOOT test and the new FWA Commission no disadvantage “clause” ie “same job and same pay” within an organisation (which Mining Companies are complaining about).

But as in all things to do with Industrial Relations it’s something of a lottery .

But here’s the kicker : Jetstar pay their Airbus pilots at a higher rate and that will be a reference for a Judgement.

QF lawyers will argue it’s different but to a Judge they will have to prove “why” they shouldn’t pay them Jetstar Wages !

VARA (flying the same aircraft) have just concluded completed a new EBA and approved by the FWA over a week ago . Everyone should look at the differences in pay and working conditions and protections (ie one example guaranteed weekend once in every 4 week roster publish). Network have never given their pilots guarantees for a weekend off etc

Lets be clear the current Network Pilot Group should persist to obtain a fair and equitable outcome .

Cheers
Buddy

[walesregent]

Hi
That’s not quite correct : they will apply both the BOOT test and the new FWA Commission no disadvantage “clause” ie “same job and same pay” within an organisation (which Mining Companies are complaining about).

But as in all things to do with Industrial Relations it’s something of a lottery .

But here’s the kicker : Jetstar pay their Airbus pilots at a higher rate and that will be a reference for a Judgement.

QF lawyers will argue it’s different but to a Judge they will have to prove “why” they shouldn’t pay them Jetstar Wages !

VARA (flying the same aircraft) have just concluded completed a new EBA and approved by the FWA over a week ago . Everyone should look at the differences in pay and working conditions and protections (ie one example guaranteed weekend once in every 4 week roster publish). Network have never given their pilots guarantees for a weekend off etc

Lets be clear the current Network Pilot Group should persist to obtain a fair and equitable outcome .

Cheers
Buddy

This is definitely the kicker for them. Try to run the same flight schedule under the award and the wages bill could accumulate quite fast, if not being outright impossible. I’m not sure how the process runs but if there is any risk that all the variations from the award are independently costed the figures could be quite different to what Qantas comes up with. No more 16 hour reserve blocks or four sector days for a start. The pinch point is that the award now talks about operating under an approved FRMS in lieu of a strict 38 hour work week (side note- who the f*ck in the commission is responsible for that shamelessly business friendly clause?), but they would have to be betting that their shambolic FRMS trial counts as ‘approved’.

[1234fly]

Is there a way we can sponsor a NAA pilot so they can do longer PIA?

[Lapon]

Is there a way we can sponsor a NAA pilot so they can do longer PIA?

Not a silly question. Didn't NZ ALPA have some sort of 'loan' avalaible to members for such an eventuality once upon a time / still?

I doubt it exists in OZ at the present time, but something to consider for the future?

[DirectAnywhere]

All this goes to show is that the talk of cultural change and a more constructive relationship with the staff from Ms Hudson was just that - talk.

This organisation will take the chance to screw its staff every time.

The attitudes of the Dixon/ Joyce years just keep on keeping on, although I didn’t expect any different.

Best of luck at FWC ladies and gents.

[aussieflyboy]

Would a FWC decision of “3% or CPI” result in the other QF Group entities getting the same? Wasn’t that a condition of the wages policy?

That alone would instil fear in the eyes of a QantasLink manager.

[walesregent]

Would a FWC decision of “3% or CPI” result in the other QF Group entities getting the same? Wasn’t that a condition of the wages policy?

That alone would instil fear in the eyes of a QantasLink manager.

Has anyone seen the actual wages policy and all its terms? We know that it involves a pay freeze followed by, now, 3% annual increases but, as far as I’m aware, we don’t know what it says about award or FWC forced pay rises. You get the feeling that it says whatever they want it to say when it suits them, so I have doubts about it triggering group wide pay increases.

[neville_nobody]

Has anyone seen the actual wages policy and all its terms? We know that it involves a pay freeze followed by, now, 3% annual increases but, as far as I’m aware, we don’t know what it says about award or FWC forced pay rises. You get the feeling that it says whatever they want it to say when it suits them, so I have doubts about it triggering group wide pay increases.

The company can write whatever policy they want but they will be paying you what the FWC determines. I don’t think they’re too bothered about some arbitrary wages policy.

[framer]

Wasn’t that a condition of the wages policy?
AusiFB What do you mean ‘condition of the wages policy’?
​​​​​​​ Below is my understanding of the wages policy. Please correct me if I am wrong in any way.

The ‘wages policy’ is just a policy that the company made. It doesn’t influence Australias economy any more than their policy around who gets to use the Business Lounge or their policy on make-up and flat-soled shoes.
The use of the word policy and the way it has been promulgated is designed to give the impression that it holds some weight. It doesn’t. It is a convenient line to trot out adnauseam….think of it as a form of gaslighting.
It can be changed at any time, in any way, that the executive management sees fit.
If 50% of the pilot workforce were about to walk out the door next month to gain a 30% pay rise, would the ‘wages policy’ be amended? Yip.

[Johnny_56]

Doesn’t JQ have a clause in their EBA stating that if other group entities get a pay increase greater than the 3% policy they get it too?

I assume it counts regardless if it’s FWA or AFAP that ‘negotiate’ it.

[onezeroonethree]

Doesn’t JQ have a clause in their EBA stating that if other group entities get a pay increase greater than the 3% policy they get it too?

I assume it counts regardless if it’s FWA or AFAP that ‘negotiate’ it.

Pretty sure every work group worked this wording into their eba recently. The flight attendants have it. The engineers have it. EFA has it.

[Beer Baron]

Pretty sure every work group worked this wording into their eba recently. The flight attendants have it. The engineers have it. EFA has it.
Have you seen it? I’ve heard rumours about such a thing but I’ve not seen it written in an actual EA. They are all open for viewing on the FWC website, anyone see the clause? Does it apply to a Workplace Determination or only an EA?

[walesregent]

Have you seen it? I’ve heard rumours about such a thing but I’ve not seen it written in an actual EA. They are all open for viewing on the FWC website, anyone see the clause? Does it apply to a Workplace Determination or only an EA?

I think it might be part of the wage policy itself. I couldn’t easily find it but I remember getting a company email that said something about it. It was possibly invoked when the company changed the policy from 0,0,2,2 to 0,0,3,3(?) but I’d be willing to bet they’ll find it doesn’t apply under circumstances like a Fair Work determination.

[aussieflyboy]

“EA-covered employee groups will be negotiating for a 24-month wage freeze followed by 2% p.a. increases when their EBAs are negotiated. If, during the current round of EBA negotiations for other work groups, an EBA outcome is agreed to by another Group entity that is inconsistent with the Group Wages Policy (excluding adjustments made for legislative compliance), the Qantas Group will consult the bargaining representatives with a view to amending the wages outcome agreed to in the proposed agreement”

This is why they will not let FWC make a wages proposal. Fairwork will not limit themselves to 3%, it would match what minimum wage awards were given ~ 5%.

That’s an extra 2+% on top of over 5,000 employees who agreed to their 2 (or 3) % wage policy.

[Beer Baron]

Is that actually in an EA or just an old company email?
I note that it references an EBA, not a WD (Workplace Determination) as gets handed down by the FWC.

[A320 Flyer]

Qantas Group will consult the bargaining representatives with a view to

Sounds legally binding…… NOT

[dragon man]

It defies the imagination that when inflation has been at 5% plus that Qantas actually believe that their blue collar workers (the ones at the coal face who make the place run) should actually take a pay reduction while as mentioned above they churn out record profits. If this is Joyce’s sister idea of leadership I think she failed abysmally.

[Buttscratcher]

Well, it will be kind of interesting to see if the ‘independent’ FW Commissioners rule that NAA pilots are actually worth less than J* or Mainline pilots.
That will, at least, officially dial down NAA career expectations to an acceptable level of disappointment.

[Colonel_Klink]

Sounds legally binding…… NOT

There seems to be a whole lot of wiggle
room in that clause which I feel means QF won’t be increasing pay in other Agreements as a result of a Fair Work determination on pay in the Network dispute.

Might be a further fight the unions will have to have. As someone mentioned above earlier, the leopard hasn’t changed its spots at Qantas, especially when it comes to matters of industrial relations.

[V-Jet]

Qantas loses patience with Network Aviation pilots, heads to Fair Work Commissionhttps://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside

Qantas has run out of patience with its Network Aviation pilots, after they voted down three proposed work agreements, including two their unions had backed.
Network Aviation is Qantas’ Perth-based airline, employing over 250 pilots who operate FIFO and private air charters as well as regular scheduled flights.
In an effort to finalise their new EBA once and for all, Qantas will make an intractable bargaining application to the Fair Work Commission.
A new feature of the Fair Work Act, intractable bargaining applications, mean the FWC has the last say on the terms and conditions of employment in cases where parties cannot reach agreement.

It follows 18-months of negotiations which saw pilots stage a 24-hour strike last October.

It’s understood the “last straw” for Qantas was a new list of demands from the pilots, which would have added millions of dollars in costs to the EBA.
Qantas says it’s already offering an upfront pay increase of more than 25 per cent plus annual 3 per cent increases, new allowances and greater roster protections.

The Network Aviation pilots who fly A320-200 and Fokker 100s want to be paid on par with Qantas 737 pilots, which would amount to a 50 per cent jump in pay.
Network Aviation chief operating officer Trevor Worgan said they would ask the Fair Work Commission to arbitrate in the hope of reaching a deal.
Australian Federation of Air Pilots officials were meeting with representatives of Network Aviation on Monday to discuss the development.

Since flying resumed post-Covid-19, 90 per cent of Qantas employees covered by enterprise agreements have signed up for new ones. The airline has previously been accused of using “strong arm” tactics in negotiating new pay deals with employees.

In 2022 the Flight Attendants Association of Australia said Qantas was “putting a gun to the heads” of cabin crew to sign off on a new deal, while short haul pilots claimed the airline had threatened to outsource their jobs if they did not accept their offer.

Chief executive Vanessa Hudson, who replaced Alan Joyce last September, has vowed to take a more conciliatory approach with unions in the “spirit of co-operation”.

[walesregent]

Qantas loses patience with Network Aviation pilots, heads to Fair Work Commissionhttps://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside

Qantas has run out of patience with its Network Aviation pilots, after they voted down three proposed work agreements, including two their unions had backed.
Network Aviation is Qantas’ Perth-based airline, employing over 250 pilots who operate FIFO and private air charters as well as regular scheduled flights.
In an effort to finalise their new EBA once and for all, Qantas will make an intractable bargaining application to the Fair Work Commission.
A new feature of the Fair Work Act, intractable bargaining applications, mean the FWC has the last say on the terms and conditions of employment in cases where parties cannot reach agreement.

It follows 18-months of negotiations which saw pilots stage a 24-hour strike last October.

It’s understood the “last straw” for Qantas was a new list of demands from the pilots, which would have added millions of dollars in costs to the EBA.
Qantas says it’s already offering an upfront pay increase of more than 25 per cent plus annual 3 per cent increases, new allowances and greater roster protections.

The Network Aviation pilots who fly A320-200 and Fokker 100s want to be paid on par with Qantas 737 pilots, which would amount to a 50 per cent jump in pay.
Network Aviation chief operating officer Trevor Worgan said they would ask the Fair Work Commission to arbitrate in the hope of reaching a deal.
Australian Federation of Air Pilots officials were meeting with representatives of Network Aviation on Monday to discuss the development.

Since flying resumed post-Covid-19, 90 per cent of Qantas employees covered by enterprise agreements have signed up for new ones. The airline has previously been accused of using “strong arm” tactics in negotiating new pay deals with employees.

In 2022 the Flight Attendants Association of Australia said Qantas was “putting a gun to the heads” of cabin crew to sign off on a new deal, while short haul pilots claimed the airline had threatened to outsource their jobs if they did not accept their offer.

Chief executive Vanessa Hudson, who replaced Alan Joyce last September, has vowed to take a more conciliatory approach with unions in the “spirit of co-operation”.

Lazy ‘journalism’ at its finest. The contract for publications appearing on Qantas Entertainment and in the lounge must be up. No comments sought from any of the unions, majorly biased language and no mention of the looming stop work action (maybe Qantas’ embedded mouthpieces have been told not to mention it- I think people might notice, though).

[Transition Layer]

Network Aviation is Qantas’ Perth-based airline

Funny… I thought Qantas was Qantas’ Perth-based airline

[Chronic Snoozer]

The Network Aviation pilots who fly A320-200 and Fokker 100s want to be paid on par with Qantas 737 pilots, which would amount to a 50 per cent jump in pay.

That's your headline right there. QANTAS pays some of its pilots only 66% of what it pays others doing exactly the same job. Same job, same pay. While else would QANTAS acquire Network?

Remember when it was bought?
“We have reached agreement with the owners of Network Aviation to purchase the business. It presents strong growth opportunities and we will immediately look at significantly growing its fleet and its operations,” said Qantas CEO Alan Joyce.

[1234fly]

Advice for NAA pilots: when crewing call and ask if you can work on the day of PIA ask if there is a duty. Don't tell them you aren't willing to fly heard it's how pilots got paid on the last PIA even though they never intended to fly.

[SilverSleuth]

“after they voted down three proposed work agreements, including two their unions had backed.”

which union can I ask actual backed a document twice that their own members rejected 3 times??
How can a union be soooooo out of touch with the people they are representing. Sounds like they are fighting to stay relevant with Qantas rather than their members. Good luck guys and girls. Don’t give up, keep fighting!!

[Ladloy]

Lazy ‘journalism’ at its finest. The contract for publications appearing on Qantas Entertainment and in the lounge must be up. No comments sought from any of the unions, majorly biased language and no mention of the looming stop work action (maybe Qantas’ embedded mouthpieces have been told not to mention it- I think people might notice, though).
Everything The Australian produces = Opinion pieces for/by the corporate elites.

[Shark Patrol]

The “Bargaining” system in Australia is a complete failure! Companies like Qantas have no intention to negotiate beyond what they’re prepared to give, and the current IR system just means that the parties have to be at each others’ throats for a considerable period of time before the “negotiation” heads to arbitration (circa 2011).

By the way, the FWC is made up of the “top end of town”. Don’t expect them to champion the cause of “the workers”. In 2011, there were very few changes to the status quo in the final FWD, and the pay rises mandated were exactly in accordance with Qantas’ “in stone” 3%. Plus, I’m assuming they’re all members of the Chairman’s Lounge.

Qantas has bought so many subsidiaries over the years because it allows them to play pilot groups off against each other. You could probably search threads about this here right back to 2003, when Jetstar was first brought into being. Network pilots have no chance of achieving parity with Mainline pilots when Qantas are using Network conditions as leverage over their Mainline pilots.

Good luck anyway!!

[MikeHatter732]

AFAP should use our dues from every subsidiary they organise to hire the best legal team money can buy. Fire must be met with fire. This is a chance to set a precedence for every pilot EA in the country!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

AFAP should use our dues from every subsidiary they organise to hire the best legal team money can buy. Fire must be met with fire. This is a chance to set a precedence for every pilot EA in the country!

Agreed. Better still, all the unions start discharging their responsibilities as pilot reps instead of indulging in self interest. Now is the time.

[framer]

Plus, I’m assuming they’re all members of the Chairman’s Lounge.
Aaahhhhh, that’s actually a really good point. Remember the hoo-ha when it became widely known that every one of the High Court Judges were using the Chairman’s Lounge?
I imagine there is a very high probability that the people ‘independently’ assessing the Network situation have in fact been relaxing in the Lounge eating Lobster while their flight schedules are monitored and updated.
​​​​​​​Without Joe Aston I doubt we’ll ever find out though.

[ShandywithSugar]

Looking downrange ....

"Dear Customers and Partners,

We're shifting gears due to challenging market conditions in Network aviation, coupled with concerns about reputation damage. As a result, we're exiting the network aviation business to focus exclusively on serving the Pilbara region with our Mainline B737 services.

We remain committed to safety, reliability, and excellent service. Your support is appreciated during this transition, and we look forward to continuing our journey with you in the Pilbara."

[walesregent]

Looking downrange ....

"Dear Customers and Partners,

We're shifting gears due to challenging market conditions in Network aviation, coupled with concerns about reputation damage. As a result, we're exiting the network aviation business to focus exclusively on serving the Pilbara region with our Mainline B737 services.

We remain committed to safety, reliability, and excellent service. Your support is appreciated during this transition, and we look forward to continuing our journey with you in the Pilbara."

Certainly not the first time this has been suggested but it does pose an interesting question. Practically speaking, how easy would this be for them to achieve? Not being the generational business genius they tend to have on staff my opinion probably doesn’t mean much, but it sounds like a more expensive option than setting fire to money. They don’t have crew to meet existing demands and I’d imagine sacking a sizeable percentage of their workforce would not help that situation.

[framer]

Followed two months later by;

Dear Customers and Partners,

We're shifting gears due to the widely reported global pilot shortage. As a result, we're exiting several low performing contracts in the Pilbara region.

We remain committed to safety, reliability, and excellent service. Your support is appreciated during this transition, and we look forward to continuing our journey with you.”

[framer]

I’d imagine sacking a sizeable percentage of their workforce would not help that situation.
What % of QF Group narrow body pilots is it? 5? 10?

[walesregent]

What % of QF Group narrow body pilots is it? 5? 10?

250-270 pilots, not sure what the group total is

[Buttscratcher]

That really worked well when they sacked the baggies.
Total financial debacle and PR disgrace.
i don’t think they will revisit such a drastic plan again.

[ShandywithSugar]

I saw your post TooManyPineapples , not the intention. 100% support the crew. But it would be totally naive to think once a deal is signed everyone will shake hands move on after taking some of the most detrimental action (to the business) in the last few decades.

Hearing perth short haul guys are being pulled off their flights reassigned onto the flights they used to do / wish they still did to cover.

[framer]

But it would be totally naive to think once a deal is signed everyone will shake hands move on
Thats exactly what happens. The executive management don’t carry the same levels of emotion into these things. It might as well be a negotiation for fuel or spare parts. Once the price is locked in, they move on. At least that’s what I’ve witnessed over the last 30+ years. If you think about it it makes sense, once the deal is done what changes for them? Nothing day to day, just a number on a spreadsheet. What changes for the employee? Everything from the weekly shopping to whether or not a family holiday can be taken. Don’t be tempted to think they care to the same degree employees do.

[WhiteNight]

Is it true that AIPA pilots have started taking extra financial incentives to do work on strike days while AFAP pilots strike? What madness is going on

[1234fly]

Is it true that AIPA pilots have started taking extra financial incentives to do work on strike days while AFAP pilots strike? What madness is going on

This is completley true 2/3 aipa reps on the last PIA not only worked which is totally acceptable as they were not protected. They voluntarily took double payments to do extra work. Disgusting

[DirectAnywhere]

Company is also building patterns for east coast pilots to cover WA flying. Weird how east coast pilots were deemed unsuited to Pilbara ops until it was going to cost the company a few $$$ but now they’re good to go.

[dejapoo]

Company is also building patterns for east coast pilots to cover WA flying. Weird how east coast pilots were deemed unsuited to Pilbara ops until it was going to cost the company a few $$$ but now they’re good to go.

Safely does it mate. We're trying to run an airline here.

[dragon man]

They are the 25 per cent, over four years, wage increases agreed with the DP World wharfies - half our waterside workers - and the similar 25 per cent wage deal with the CFMEU, and thus, indirectly, all workers in construction.
Let me spell it out, as Bullock would as well: if 6 per cent-a-year wage increases became generalised and entrenched across the economy, it would be absolutely incompatible with keeping inflation even at 4-5 per cent, far less getting it down and then keeping it down below 3 per cent

From a Terry McCrann article, so I ask myself if it’s good enough for wharfies and construction workers why isn’t it good enough for Network pilots and in fact all aviation workers.

[Window heat]

“Qantas loses patience with Network Aviation pilots…..” That’s odd, every member of Qantas has lost patience with the management. It’s a job, not servitude.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

They are the 25 per cent, over four years, wage increases agreed with the DP World wharfies - half our waterside workers - and the similar 25 per cent wage deal with the CFMEU, and thus, indirectly, all workers in construction.
Let me spell it out, as Bullock would as well: if 6 per cent-a-year wage increases became generalised and entrenched across the economy, it would be absolutely incompatible with keeping inflation even at 4-5 per cent, far less getting it down and then keeping it down below 3 per cent

From a Terry McCrann article, so I ask myself if it’s good enough for wharfies and construction workers why isn’t it good enough for Network pilots and in fact all aviation workers.

Indeed. And our economics expert friend McCrann failed to consider the decades long pay freeze where pilot salaries plummeted. 25% gets us back to where we might have been in the late 90’s, QF et al have a loooong way to go.

I’ve been told that several pilots from the east coast operation have been unavailable to help break the strike over here. Amazing to feel the support!

[aussieflyboy]

I’ve been told that several pilots from the east coast operation have been unavailable to help break the strike over here. Amazing to feel the support!

One particular operator was offering Captains over $5,000 to ‘assist’ in the west and didn’t have any volunteers.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

One particular operator was offering Captains over $5,000 to ‘assist’ in the west and didn’t have any volunteers.

So we won’t see any 717’s over here??

[dragon man]

As Paul Keating so beautifully said “ remember when you build a nest of sh#t one day you might have to lie in it” definitely hope that it happens to Qantas with National Jet.

[dive and drive]

Keep fighting the good fight, guys and gals in the West!

[Gerald Garrett]

One particular operator was offering Captains over $5,000 to ‘assist’ in the west and didn’t have any volunteers.

So we won’t see any 717’s over here??

As Paul Keating so beautifully said “ remember when you build a nest of sh#t one day you might have to lie in it” definitely hope that it happens to Qantas with National Jet.

This Sh*t is giving me goosebumps. F**K Q group management.

[LostontheLOC]

Good luck everyone tomorrow!! Congratulations on all that you have achieved so far and what you will achieve by sticking together!

[framer]

How many airframes have turned up to cover the flying?

[Capt_SNAFU]

Over 40 flights cancelled

[dragon man]

Over 40 flights cancelled


Too early for champagne ? Not on your Nelly.

[Going Nowhere]

How many airframes have turned up to cover the flying?

Nexus are covering a PER-LEA return with their Q400.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

How many airframes have turned up to cover the flying?

It would appear one made it from the East.

[morno]

It would appear one made it from the East.

Crewed by management pilots apparently.

[Icarus2001]

So the pressure will come from the mining companies to sort it out, not from within Q.

[mates rates]

Stick together boys and girls,we know what happened in 1989 15% scabbed,so be prepared for that!!

[aussieflyboy]

Stick together boys and girls,we know what happened in 1989 15% scabbed,so be prepared for that!!

The list always gets a little longer during industrial action but most people are learning it’s not a list you want to be on.

[LostontheLOC]

Any news on the outcome of yesterday?

[Brakerider]

Any news on the outcome of yesterday?

another work stoppage next week

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Any news on the outcome of yesterday?

IR running around trying to figure out why the pilots didn’t blink this time, and what to do next?

[LostontheLOC]

Network pilots are really setting the standard for Australian aviation!

Have anyone heard from "i need a change" lately, i feel he might be on edge?

[nomess]

Virgin Pilots. You’re up next. Please pay attention closely and ensure you follow through like this group has done.

[brokenagain]

Hopefully this is the beginning of airline pilots in Australia recognising that right now, we actually have the upper hand over these pricks in suits with their MBAs.

[Sameoldsameold]

The list always gets a little longer during industrial action but most people are learning it’s not a list you want to be on.

And what happens exactly if one’s name makes it onto the dreaded “list”?

[dragon man]

Hopefully this is the beginning of airline pilots in Australia recognising that right now, we actually have the upper hand over these pricks in suits with their MBAs.


In the case of Qantas one in particular who used to work for a union.

[dejapoo]

I feel like a circuit breaker is coming.. qf were shut-down for red ties, PAs and the porter's and caterers throwing threats yeah?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I feel like a circuit breaker is coming.. qf were shut-down for red ties, PAs and the porter's and caterers throwing threats yeah?

Possibly, but that tool has a limited shelf life. IR need to think long and hard about pulling any circuit breakers in this environment as the reputation of all airlines is on the nose.

I do wish the unions were running a really good media campaign to get ahead of the diarrhoea about to flow out of the arses of the QF spin doctors
though. An opportunity lost in my opinion.

[Buttscratcher]

Quite right!
AFAP have to get our side of the story out there on mainstream news ….not odd AM radio like last f’ing time.

[MBA747]

Keep the stoppages going that's the only thing these guys understand.

[CaptCloudbuster]

The circuit breaker is coming isn’t it? A FWC Determination.

[HongKongflu]

I wish the flying public knew what a toxic, miserable place Network has become & what a shambles management is. It's a workplace where half the people in safety roles like the Pilots are looking for a job somewhere else, because of the way they are being treated. It has become intolerable and QF are doing nothing about it, just playing hard ball. Why aren't people more outraged that all these specialised employees are about to abandon ship? Qantas senior management, you should hang your head in shame.

[Red69]

Keep up the good work lads. It’s a tough fight but you guys are showing how it’s done. Would be great to see other groups end up in PIA soon. Having multiple qf groups going PIA is going to hurt them a lot more!

[JamieMaree]

In the case of Qantas one in particular who used to work for a union.


Your usual crap Dragon Man.
The only pilots ever employed by AIPA were employed in the welfare area.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Ok not “work”. How about “advocate”? :ugh:

[Swept-Wing]

Possibly, but that tool has a limited shelf life. IR need to think long and hard about pulling any circuit breakers in this environment as the reputation of all airlines is on the nose.

I do wish the unions were running a really good media campaign to get ahead of the diarrhoea about to flow out of the arses of the QF spin doctors
though. An opportunity lost in my opinion.

Sounds good in theory, however unfortunately the public has little sympathy for pilots earning six figures, despite how far below it is from your colleagues.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Sounds good in theory, however unfortunately the public has little sympathy for pilots earning six figures, despite how far below it is from your colleagues.

The public also earn 6 figures now.

[dragon man]

Your usual crap Dragon Man.
The only pilots ever employed by AIPA were employed in the welfare area.

‘Its not actually , you just showing how well balanced you are with a chip on both shoulders.

[Colonel_Klink]

Your usual crap Dragon Man.
The only pilots ever employed by AIPA were employed in the welfare area.

Are you seriously trying to defend NS?

[I Need Of A Change]

Network pilots are really setting the standard for Australian aviation!

Have anyone heard from "i need a change" lately, i feel he might be on edge?

Thanks for thinking of me. I’ve been on leave and only just back at work. I’m fine thanks, no edge insight.

[ActiveLooker]

Second day of PIA for next week announced today I hear. I hope the guys and gals keep rolling strikes coming. **** them down for a week and watch the clients run to the opposition. QF arrogance again shines through. They would prefer to loose 10 times what they would be giving away just to save face. Can someone start a go fund me page so we can all contribute. I believe a few 89ers are also up to their old tricks in Network during the strike this week. Despicable! Strength to you all!

[pill]

Great work people. A touch of unity will show up QF management for being the ****bags they have been for far to long.

[KAPAC]

Appears if Bin Chickens unite they can take on a kangaroo ?

[JamieMaree]

Are you seriously trying to defend NS?

No. Just keeping the record straight.

[neville_nobody]

Well let's hope this doesn't end in a Pyrrhic victory with all the customers leaving and going to other operators followed by a lambasting in the media about greedy pilots bankrupting the airline.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Pilots in other operations are just biding their time before going to Qantas .
why shouldn’t Qantas group pilots get the same pay and conditions as the 737 drivers . It’s totally wrong and I applaud the Network guys for going for it .
lets hope the JQ people have a go as well .

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Because giving all Qantas group (subsidiary) pilots appropriate remuneration for doing the same job as mainline pilots undermines the point of subsidiaries, which is to grow said subsidiaries while shrinking mainline. Taking away their ability to lower the pilot cost base might mean Qantas have to get back to running one airline….god forbid!!

[Sameoldsameold]

Nope. Sorry, you don't get to be paid mainline pay just cause you wear a fancy hat and fly a jet with a red tail. If you want to get paid mainline rates then join mainline at the bottom of the list like everyone else.

[aussieflyboy]

Pilots in other operations are just biding their time before going to Qantas .
.

I think you’ll find Qantas is towards the bottom of the list of places pilots are heading. Who wants to sit in the back seat for 17 hours when you could have a window seat and be paid 40% more?

[Beer Baron]

I think you’ll find Qantas is towards the bottom of the list of places pilots are heading. Who wants to sit in the back seat for 17 hours when you could have a window seat and be paid 40% more?
Haha, yeah sure. If you want the window seat, bid for the 737. It’s available from day 1 and the pay rise is closer to 100%.

[walesregent]

Well let's hope this doesn't end in a Pyrrhic victory with all the customers leaving and going to other operators followed by a lambasting in the media about greedy pilots bankrupting the airline.

Leaving for where? Is there any individual operator (or combination of operators) who can handle network’s workload on top of their own? That’s one of the main issues we have- Network lacks competition and uses it to squeeze clients and staff for maximum profit. Those operators are stretched and would need to expand dramatically to offer clients a stable alternative. Where will they get the crew and equipment? Who would take the risks to finance such a rapid expansion?

I’m aware that this all hinges on everyone behaving rationally but, at the very least, mining companies are very much aware of how much their businesses depend a well resourced transport provider. Maybe mainline takes it back, but they aren’t exactly flush with spare capacity.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Over 40 flights cancelled on Thursday past. QF sending B737 Pilots to Dallas to train, no spare capacity here. The System is streeeeeetched to the limit ATM.

[neville_nobody]

Leaving for where? Is there any individual operator (or combination of operators) who can handle network’s workload on top of their own? That’s one of the main issues we have- Network lacks competition and uses it to squeeze clients and staff for maximum profit. Those operators are stretched and would need to expand dramatically to offer clients a stable alternative. Where will they get the crew and equipment? Who would take the risks to finance such a rapid expansion?


No not one operator but if it is spread it between Skippers, National Jet, Virgin and Alliance I’m sure you could keep your mine operating. I’d be curious what the Mining Companies take on all this is. If they are sympathetic to QF then they will probably put up with the disruption.

[ShandywithSugar]

"If they are sympathetic to QF then they will probably put up with the disruption."

Doubtful. They had a reliable service prior and were moved to the incumbent. Most probably wish they were seeing the old work horse again.

Heard it's hot in Perth today? This week's looking even hotter.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Never get in the way of Gina or Twiggy and a $.

She’s not even sympathetic enough to her own kids (https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/gina-rinehart-s-children-make-surprise-court-appearance-in-mining-dynasty-row-20231120-p5elcz.html).

Hell will freeze over before she lends any favour to the QF Group!

[stevieboy330]

Why aren't the big mining companies & their FIFO staff more concerned about what's going on here ? If I was getting on a QF jet with a pilot who is pissed off, underpaid & feeling intimidated and threatened by their employer that would worry me a lot ! These guys are flying fast jets with 100 plus passengers into busy airports with no Air Traffic Control, around terrain and weather, short runways, old airframes often very early hours of the morning with very inexperienced First Officers. Zero support from QANTAS management.....Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me! QANTAS you can't say you didn't know, this has been going on for a long time now.

[walesregent]

No not one operator but if it is spread it between Skippers, National Jet, Virgin and Alliance I’m sure you could keep your mine operating. I’d be curious what the Mining Companies take on all this is. If they are sympathetic to QF then they will probably put up with the disruption.

hopefully we get some significant improvements but I doubt we’ll get anywhere near the point Qantas decides it’s not worth it. Amongst other things they would be kissing goodbye to a lot of platinums

[walesregent]

Why aren't the big mining companies & their FIFO staff more concerned about what's going on here ? If I was getting on a QF jet with a pilot who is pissed off, underpaid & feeling intimidated and threatened by their employer that would worry me a lot ! These guys are flying fast jets with 100 plus passengers into busy airports with no Air Traffic Control, around terrain and weather, short runways, old airframes often very early hours of the morning with very inexperienced First Officers. Zero support from QANTAS management.....Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me! QANTAS you can't say you didn't know, this has been going on for a long time now.

Lack of awareness? I guess they deal with countless external service providers and, although transport is pretty vital, they probably don’t give it as much thought as we do. A bit surprised Qantas accepts such a glaring risk but I guess there are a tonne of scapegoats in middle management if they don’t manage to pin responsibility for an incident on the flight crew.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

https://michaelwest.com.au/qantas-pilots-strike-and-consultants-galore/

We have another Joe Aston on our hands! Some very good reporting here, accurate to a tee.

[Fred Gassit]

The mining companies send their safety guys on a jump seat ride every 6 months or so. The pilots have been telling them the same stuff for years now, nothing changes…they don’t give a sh*t.
(Roy Hill employees pay to go to their own Xmas party)

[framer]

The mining companies send their safety guys on a jump seat ride every 6 months or so.
I would love to see the checklist they are ticking off when they do that. I can’t imagine a non- pilot safety specialist would be able to accurately assess a flights safety any more than a pilot would be able to assess a supermarket owners advertising budget.

[Zeta_Reticuli]

I would love to see the checklist they are ticking off when they do that. I can’t imagine a non- pilot safety specialist would be able to accurately assess a flights safety any more than a pilot would be able to assess a supermarket owners advertising budget.


Everything in mining is a box ticking exercise. Safety is an after thought. And tbh Twiggy and Gina do not give a **** about their staff or safety, just don't die on their site... Bhp and Rio aren't any different. Rio being one of the worst. If they operated their own aircrafts there would be smoking craters dotted throughout the Pilbara and Goldfields. Everything is done to leave a paper trail.

[Fred Gassit]

To be fair to these guys the ones I’ve dealt with certainly have an aviation background.
It just felt like a pointless exercise, probably quite frustrating for them too.

[stevieboy330]

I'm not so much having a go at the mining companies, it's more of a criticism of QF that this stuff going on outside of the EBA dispute. The company does not appear to be addressing issues like employee wellbeing & moral. They don't seem to care about their Pilots at all, rather see them as adversaries. It's a very flawed approach, quite frankly a pretty dangerous one.

[DirectAnywhere]

The company does not appear to be addressing issues like employee wellbeing & moral. They don't seem to care about their Pilots at all, rather see them as adversaries. It's a very flawed approach, quite frankly a pretty dangerous one.

You’re new here, aren’t you?

[Chronic Snoozer]

I blame the industrial laws. They encourage adversarial negotiation, without mandating it. Locking out employees? Threats to send new equipment to lower paid groups? PIA? It's gladiatorial.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Corporate laws and business degree providers which still see staff as a cost to the enterprise when it’s very clear that we are anything but. The true litmus test occurs when we go on PIA, the company ceases to function, they fight tooth and nail to prevent us from accessing PIA and in the same sentence reiterate their position that we are too expensive.

They literally want to have their birthday cake and eat it too, happy birthday for the other day mate, IYKYK :}

[stevieboy330]

You’re new here, aren’t you?

I am pretty new here, that's true, but I'm not new to business or aviation, I'm also a pretty successful person. In my experience truly great employers don't engage with their staff like this because it's bad for business across the board. I don't see a positive outcome here for either side, sadly, although I sincerely hope Network Aviation Pilots can start getting treated with a little more respect & get some of the recognition they are entitled to, best of luck.

[framer]

Hi Stevieboy,
I agree 100% with your line of thinking and I suspect most employees of Australian companies do too.
When you said
The company does not appear to be addressing issues like employee wellbeing & moral. They don't seem to care about their Pilots at all, rather see them as adversaries.
it made the likes of us who have been around the QF group for a few decades pause, blink slowly, shake our heads a bit and then realise that not everyone is as jaundiced as ourselves. The idea of the company caring about employees wellbeing and morale seems kinda cute and definitely naive.
The reality of being part of the group is that there is a lot of propaganda around ideology and modern philosophies, but that only gets investment to the minimum extent possible to be able to pull off the odd media release with a passing sense of legitimacy. If you ignore the advertising and puff pieces and look at things that actually happen, like illegal sacking of 1700 workers, or marginalising/ suspending good honest workers like Theo Seremetidis, or the Chairman’s Lounge High Court Judge issue from 2023, or the Labour hire practices that see cabin crew operating the same flight on very different salaries, or the willingness to leave a pilot group on wages that are below the award for years and years, or the ‘bundle of contractual rights’ attitude etc etc etc then it becomes clear that the share price rising and falling in the appropriate manner is what drives absolutely everything.

​​​​​​​I sincerely hope Network Aviation Pilots can start getting treated with a little more respect & get some of the recognition they are entitled to, best of luck. I do too. Mainly because I really like aviation and don’t like seeing it become a nasty place to be with declining standards.
For the last 20 or 30 years most of the levers have been pulling for corporations in the aviation industry, right now, that’s not the case. If we, as operational aviation people don’t take the shot while it is there ( maybe briefly) then the standards will fall away over the next decade to a level that I don’t think I’ll be proud to be a part of. The Corporations definitely take their shots where they can, we must do the same ( like the Network pilots have done) or we’ll be part of something very average. I don’t know one Network pilot, yet I feel proud of them. Good work folks.

[Chronic Snoozer]

In my experience truly great employers don't engage with their staff like this because it's bad for business across the board.

Truly great employers probably don't run off to Boston Consulting Group or McKinsey the minute there's a problem.

I did like Rebel Wilson's crack at the AACTA awards - I love Queensland. It's like if Jetstar was a state.

[SOPS]

What I don’t understand. Why do Qantas executives deserve all the big bonuses and salaries they get, if they need external help just to work out how to make planes run on time? Surely something as simple as that is a fundamental part of running an airline.

[MikeHatter732]

What I don’t understand. Why do Qantas executives deserve all the big bonuses and salaries they get, if they need external help just to work out how to make planes run on time? Surely something as simple as that is a fundamental part of running an airline.
Because said consultants will say the way to fix the airline is to actually pay the execs even more....

Watch the JO video posted above about Mckinsey

[Lead Balloon]

It's OPS NORMAL for most aviation-related organisations in Australia.

Among the many CASA contracts whose details must be published in accordance with a Senate Order are:

GARTNER AUSTRALASIA PTY LTD - Gartner Executive Program - $927,547.50

FUTURE LEADERSHIP PTY LTD - Team Building & Professional Development Training (EC Member - $229,300.00

DELOITTE CONSULTING PTY LTD - ESB Phase 2 - $7,777,776.88

Those details come from the two most recent lists published here (https://www.casa.gov.au/about-us/reporting-and-accountability/our-contracts/senate-order-entity-contracts-1-january-2023-31-december-2023) and here (https://www.casa.gov.au/about-us/reporting-and-accountability/our-contracts/senate-order-entity-contracts-1-july-2022-30-june-2023#ContractDetails).

(And, as with most Commonwealth agencies, CASA wastes eyewatering amounts on IT.)

[KAPAC]

What I don’t understand. Why do Qantas executives deserve all the big bonuses and salaries they get, if they need external help just to work out how to make planes run on time? Surely something as simple as that is a fundamental part of running an airline.

Let the consultants make the decision , collect your bonus if they get it right or blame them if it goes wrong .
Privatise the profits , socialise the losses .
It’s all out of the same play book .

[nomess]

Managers in companies who are in distress, often when they speak up or advise how to fix things, to the higher ups, they get sacked or moved on. Essentially the smart ones are removed. Generally these people leave for greener pastures regardless and the idiots remain. Which makes up a large chunk of the management ranks in corporate Oz.

Can you imagine manager’s going up to AJ and saying we’ve done all this wrong, we need to do this and we need to do that. You would be planning your funeral soon after.

Better off saying nothing, pay a zillion to get consulting groups in, get the same answers, implement the changes, and keep one’s job.

It’s a disgrace but just how the corp and political worlds work.

[DirectAnywhere]

I am pretty new here, that's true, but I'm not new to business or aviation, I'm also a pretty successful person. In my experience truly great employers don't engage with their staff like this because it's bad for business across the board. I don't see a positive outcome here for either side, sadly, although I sincerely hope Network Aviation Pilots can start getting treated with a little more respect & get some of the recognition they are entitled to, best of luck.

My tongue was firmly in my cheek. I wasn’t having a go at you or your experience or background.

I was making the point that this attitude from management has been the way for at least the last 20 years, really since the acquisition of Impulse.

This idea of divide and conquer, and pitting different pilot groups against one another, has been the hallmark of the Dixon/ Joyce eras, and now the Hudson tenure provides no evidence of intent to change that direction, despite the nice words to that effect.

The fact that the airline and its various incarnations through multiple subsidiaries continues to function is a testament to the crew (tech and cabin) and ground staff that continue to turn up and do the job to the best of their ability.

This is despite the best efforts of management to demonstrate their contempt for those very staff at every opportunity, despite the possible consequences you described above.

[stevieboy330]

"DirectAnywhere (https://www.pprune.org/members/76361-directanywhere)"
Thanks for the clarity, it was kind of you. I realise I'm too old for this stuff now & not thick skinned enough for "pprune" so this is my last post, I only have 3 years to go anyway. I just lament the fact that Qantas management got so short sighted, greedy & disengaged from their cockpit crew. I look right and see many outstanding, capable & talented men & women every time I fly, I am proud of them. It saddens me to see how the Network pilots are being treated & disrespect they are being show. Good luck Network aviators and the rest of you in the "group" you're going to need it.

[SpyderPig]

Just heard another day of PIA for Friday has just been sent to the company. Short work week for the Network gang! Stay strong 💪

[MikeHatter732]

Surely someone fires up a gofundme so we can buy these guys a few beers and parmi's to enjoy during their long weekend! Absolute legends!

[Zeta_Reticuli]

Just heard another day of PIA for Friday has just been sent to the company. Short work week for the Network gang! Stay strong 💪


Ahh F..kem, Network should go for an entire week if demands are not met by Friday! Time for the pilots to be the militants that Qantas bred! Militancy is the only language Qantas understand! Setup a Gofundme asap!

[Big Silver Spoon]

The whole industry is watching you. And cheering for you.

Much respect.

[davidclarke]

I think we can comfortably say that every pilot in the group is gunning for you guys and girls.

Bullies only respond to strength! Stay united.

[HongKongflu]

FYI non Network Pilots interested. From AFAP today.

"That now means that the company has been notified of three consecutive 24 hour stoppages of work for this coming Wednesday, Thursday and Friday (14th, 15th & 16th).Your negotiating team recognises that this is a big step, but this is in response to the clear feedback received since Qantas walked away from negotiations and also took previously agreed items off the table. "

Network Pilots keeping it real

[Hoosten]

Shouldn't AFAP have some sort of fund that compensates these warrior pilots for lost income? If it doesn't it should start one. Like $5 a week from every member.

On the gofundme, I'd contribute, come on, somebody get it started.

[hillbillybob]

Exactly. This will echo through the industry. There should be a fighting fund. The f100 guys were already doing it tough without losing cash during strikes

[HongKongflu]

Shouldn't AFAP have some sort of fund that compensates these warrior pilots for lost income? If it doesn't it should start one. Like $5 a week from every member.

On the gofundme, I'd contribute, come on, somebody get it started.

You would be happy to learn how many Network pilots have already contributed to a bank account for their colleagues, in may cases for pilot collegues they haven't even met ! Network pilots are rewriting the book on solidarity & taking on the bully.

[aussieflyboy]

Is there a “gofundme” page?

It’d break records with donations I’d say. Can the AFAP facilitate?

[Saintly]

I heard Qantaslink/Network Aviaiton's pilots having a 2 day strike - Wednesday 14 and Thursday 15 of Feb, but I also read online that the strike could possibly go into a third day - Friday 16 February. I mention this because I have work staff in KGI/YPKG who are due to fly back to Perth on Friday 16 February, I dont want them stranded. Are the strikes heading into a third day?

Any help is appreciated.

Cheers,
Saintly.

[dijon moutard]

I heard Qantaslink/Network Aviaiton's pilots having a 2 day strike - Wednesday 14 and Thursday 15 of Feb, but I also read online that the strike could possibly go into a third day - Friday 16 February. I mention this because I have work staff in KGI/YPKG who are due to fly back to Perth on Friday 16 February, I dont want them stranded. Are the strikes heading into a third day?

Any help is appreciated.

Cheers,
Saintly.

Hi Saintly
They are definitely PIA through to Friday UNLESS QF relents in their “hard-ball” attitude towards their pilots who earn LESS then their competitors across the road (VARA/previously formerly Skywest) who fly the exact same Aircraft .

What a pity that their management team treat them with such contempt with an expired Eba agreement going back almost 4 years .

Just imagine your workers with NO pay rises in 4 years !

Cheers
Buddy

[Saintly]

Hi Saintly
They are definitely PIA through to Friday UNLESS QF relents in their “hard-ball” attitude towards their pilots who earn LESS then their competitors across the road (VARA/previously formerly Skywest) who fly the exact same Aircraft .

What a pity that their management team treat them with such contempt with an expired Eba agreement going back almost 4 years .

Just imagine your workers with NO pay rises in 4 years !

Cheers
Buddy

Hi mate,

Thanks for letting me know. Looks like ill need to arrange and look at alternative flights, probably use VA.

But yes it's not good and the Network pilots absolutely deserve more money. What's the difference in pay for Network pilots compared to VARA pilots?

In terms of the strikes, I'll say this: I'm a union member in another industry. Striking is the absolute last option that unions and their members take and when striking is the only option, then most of the time all other avenues in terms of negotiating for a suitable pay/conditions have been looked into. When members of a union decide to strike, then you know the situation is not good and the situation calls for striking. No one wants to strike - including unions and their members. But sometimes striking is the only way to send a very loud and clear message.

I wish all Network pilots well during this tricky period and I hope they get the outcome that they absolutely deserve.

Cheers,
Saintly.

[soseg]

To anyone reading this who is an AIPA rep, com member etc. Keg you're the president, aren’t you?

As an AIPA member I want to know why you’re quiet?

AFAP endorsed the last EBA offer, as did AIPA, however they have backed their pilots after the third no vote. Why hasn’t AIPA seized the opportunity to join them and get their members to take PIA as well?

We want answers. I was contemplating the last few months whether AIPA was staying quiet to look like the good guys to QF IR and try secure QF SH a good deal on the side quietly and stay out of the media heat, but after the laughable email offer the SH pilots across the road got from the company in December that’s obviously not the case. And FWIW, I haven’t spoken to a single AIPA member who understands or agrees with the logic of staying quiet like it’s all some confidential secret stuff going on behind closed doors.

So, on behalf of the many other mainline AIPA members who are losing faith in you and looking to switch to AFAP; what the hell are you guys doing? Asleep at the wheel?

[YeahNup]

Is there a “gofundme” page?

It’d break records with donations I’d say. Can the AFAP facilitate?

Maybe the militant ex-CX crew who sold their houses in HK for millions and now live in Perth's best suburbs can make contributions to F100 FOs who are on the bones of their arse and help them pay their mortgages.

Just a thought

[ShandywithSugar]

100% soseg. Meanwhile the guys over there in Perth SH get a survey about the accomodation in the Pilbara when 95% of the pilbara flying has been lost?! Priorities.

To anyone reading this who is an AIPA rep, com member etc. Keg you're the president, aren’t you?

As an AIPA member I want to know why you’re quiet?

AFAP endorsed the last EBA offer, as did AIPA, however they have backed their pilots after the third no vote. Why hasn’t AIPA seized the opportunity to join them and get their members to take PIA as well?

We want answers. I was contemplating the last few months whether AIPA was staying quiet to look like the good guys to QF IR and try secure QF SH a good deal on the side quietly and stay out of the media heat, but after the laughable email offer the SH pilots across the road got from the company in December that’s obviously not the case. And FWIW, I haven’t spoken to a single AIPA member who understands or agrees with the logic of staying quiet like it’s all some confidential secret stuff going on behind closed doors.

So, on behalf of the many other mainline AIPA members who are losing faith in you and looking to switch to AFAP; what the hell are you guys doing? Asleep at the wheel?

[morno]

To anyone reading this who is an AIPA rep, com member etc. Keg you're the president, aren’t you?

As an AIPA member I want to know why you’re quiet?

AFAP endorsed the last EBA offer, as did AIPA, however they have backed their pilots after the third no vote. Why hasn’t AIPA seized the opportunity to join them and get their members to take PIA as well?

We want answers. I was contemplating the last few months whether AIPA was staying quiet to look like the good guys to QF IR and try secure QF SH a good deal on the side quietly and stay out of the media heat, but after the laughable email offer the SH pilots across the road got from the company in December that’s obviously not the case. And FWIW, I haven’t spoken to a single AIPA member who understands or agrees with the logic of staying quiet like it’s all some confidential secret stuff going on behind closed doors.

So, on behalf of the many other mainline AIPA members who are losing faith in you and looking to switch to AFAP; what the hell are you guys doing? Asleep at the wheel?

Because they’re only listening to the top seniority members who have very little to lose. Meanwhile everyone else at the bottom is thrown under the bus, so that the AIPA Com can be assured cushy jobs in the office by not rocking the boat (ie. the company).

Go to AFAP like so many others are now doing. At least they might listen and take action because they’re completely separate from the company.

[soseg]

Oh the Ginbata survey. I heard about that. Only many many years too late!

[ActiveLooker]

Maybe the militant ex-CX crew who sold their houses in HK for millions and now live in Perth's best suburbs can make contributions to F100 FOs who are on the bones of their arse and help them pay their mortgages.


Just a thought Aren’t they the ones driving change for the F/Os who are electing to fly on days of PIA. From what I hear check and trainers, new hires and F/Os are flying. Don’t shoot those that got off their backsides and went abroad to further their careers. If F/Os want change and a big house in the finer suburbs, show some solidarity and play a part in your own future.