Network EBA

[Big Silver Spoon]

Scope clauses was part of the log of claims in 2011 when Alan woke up one morning and grounded the airline.
We can now see why he was deadset against it.

[Beer Baron]

The only tool pilots have to prevent all of the above is negotiating scope. Scope is the reason US regionals have started to die, US mainline flying increased, and led to stronger bargaining positions.
Scope would be great, and as has been pointed out, mainline took PIA a decade ago to achieve it. But Qantas would rather ground the whole operation and blow over $200 million, than give it to us. Your post shows exactly why they will never allow it. The last thing they want is T&C’s matching the US majors.

In the past a lockout would be (and was) the only way to stop drawn out PIA. But as we have all seen, the IR landscape has changed and an Intractable Bargaining application can painlessly stop further PIA.

So if Qantas don’t want to give you scope and you can’t force the issue with PIA, what is your move? I’m fairly certain the FWC won’t serve it up in a determination. So do you accept the terms of the lowest subsidiary in exchange for scope? Now that surely would be a pyrrhic victory.

[Gas Chamber]

Scope would be great, and as has been pointed out, mainline took PIA a decade ago to achieve it. But Qantas would rather ground the whole operation and blow over $200 million, than give it to us. Your post shows exactly why they will never allow it. The last thing they want is T&C’s matching the US majors.

In the past a lockout would be (and was) the only way to stop drawn out PIA. But as we have all seen, the IR landscape has changed and an Intractable Bargaining application can painlessly stop further PIA.

So if Qantas don’t want to give you scope and you can’t force the issue with PIA, what is your move? I’m fairly certain the FWC won’t serve it up in a determination. So do you accept the terms of the lowest subsidiary in exchange for scope? Now that surely would be a pyrrhic victory.

maybe 200 pilots in Western Australia didn’t wake them up…perhaps 3000+ on the east coast will do the trick. Perhaps Virgin can join us and make a real statement about management abuse and lack of recognition. How will they manage that?!
They will bleed cash and be all over the media.
Aircraft will be parked all over the country. Business and public will realise our worth.
stop starting subsidiaries to destroy our hard earned conditions. Government is having to implement IR laws to stop the blatant manipulation of staff.
Sure they can force an eventual determination, but that will take months or even years.
imagine the chaos in between.
QF would be hundreds of millions better off with ONE seniority list and ONE business. Imagine the millions or even billions saved on training, retention, efficiencies, IR, HR etc.
Stop manipulating your loyal staff with gross outsourcing. Stop destroying a great airline.
you grubs don’t deserve to be part of our national carrier. The selfish destruction of the place is abhorrent.
I’m absolutely confident it will work.
after years of games and abuse, I say…
BRING IT

[Beer Baron]

Sure they can force an eventual determination, but that will take months or even years.
imagine the chaos in between.
When Qantas locked us out during the last PIA all actions were canceled within 48 hours. Even at Network, IB was applied for in February and granted in March, end of PIA. You don’t get to take PIA while FWC deliberate on your eventual determination.

I get that you’re (rightfully) angry but a strategy has to be based in reality.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Closing this thread due to multiple complaints, may reopen later when I have time to clean it up.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Reopened for a while

[Gas Chamber]

My throat feels sore after dealing with a busy week of flying in a network we no longer have any support. Penny pinching while everything falls apart.
I feel sorry for the passengers enduring management’s on going stupidity.
Might just “vote no” on next week’s roster.

[aussieflyboy]

How’s the A320/319 Captain crewing going…?

[ShandywithSugar]

How’s the A320/319 Captain crewing going…?

It would appear not great. How long until things are being parked?.

[davidclarke]

How many pilots did they loose last week?….was it 4 or 5….I’m sure they were able to replace them quickly😂

[wf747]

How many pilots did they loose last week?….was it 4 or 5….I’m sure they were able to replace them quickly😂

MinRes offering A320 endorsed $275k?

Network are just very lucky VA have a massive training backlog…

[gordonfvckingramsay]

https://www.facebook.com/share/B3KHZcZ8p62hCuzf/?mibextid=WC7FNe

Singapore on the hunt too.

[volare_737]

MinRes offering A320 endorsed $275k?

Network are just very lucky VA have a massive training backlog…


Sorry - what's MinRes ??? Worked it out. Do you know where they are advertising or where one could apply ?

[Chronic Snoozer]

https://www.facebook.com/share/B3KHZcZ8p62hCuzf/?mibextid=WC7FNe

Singapore on the hunt too.Salary and Benefits You will enjoy an attractive salary, along with various allowances and benefits.

https://careers.singaporeair.com/sia/job/Direct-Entry-First-Officer/19621344/?dclid=CPq6lqeIzYUDFSVKnQkd9MUPPg

Helpful!

[meatbomb01]

https://careers.singaporeair.com/sia/job/Direct-Entry-First-Officer/19621344/?dclid=CPq6lqeIzYUDFSVKnQkd9MUPPg

Helpful!

any idea what ‘an attractive salary’ is?

[walesregent]

https://www.facebook.com/share/B3KHZcZ8p62hCuzf/?mibextid=WC7FNe

Singapore on the hunt too.

Cathay road show on its way also

[BuzzBox]

Cathay road show on its way also

Anyone who's contemplating going down that route would be well advised to do their homework on the cost of living in Hong Kong vs the salary package. Also examine the "contract"; most of the benefits are "policy" and can be changed at the sole discretion of the company. There is little or no protection under Hong Kong employment law.

[Chronic Snoozer]

any idea what ‘an attractive salary’ is?

To management or to worker bees?

[spc98075c]

Any updates on when the FWC will provide the determination?

[walesregent]

Any updates on when the FWC will provide the determination?

Not yet. There’s a preliminary hearing in May to determine what the agreed position is for the starting point to narrow what the commission will have to make a determination on. Probably a way to go and the stack of resignations is getting steadily taller.

[Slippery_Pete]

The “agreed position”?

The AFAP MUST show that the agreed position was deliberately sabotaged by the company the day before they made an IB application. Clearly, that was done to take advantage of the system.

It makes a complete mockery of the good faith bargaining legislation - and FWC would be opening the hornets nest for all employers by allowing that sort of behaviour.

They’ll have hundreds of employers on their doorsteps overnight if one can simply cancel months/years of negotiation on agreed items the day before making an IB application.

That’s not the intent of the IB process when it was designed, and clearly QF are testing the water on what they can get away with given the looming SH and LH EBAs.

IMHO, FWC can not be seen to encourage such manipulation.

The agreed position was everything other than the overtime rate being half the normal rate.

[spc98075c]

Other than the ot rate, is b scale agreed terms as well?

[Slippery_Pete]

I don’t know, as I don’t work there.

But given the yes vote was 47% at one point, it seems very close to the majority were happy with the gains in all other areas.

No doubt QF spent many millions more on trying to mitigate the industrial action than what it would have cost them to be paying the correct hourly rate into overtime.

I have no doubt the 47/53 vote would have been 51% yes had they not halved the overtime rate. No doubt there’s some pretty serious discussions behind closed doors at Mascot asking how NS stuffed this up so badly.

The argument has always been that they can’t possibly afford to pay a cent more (and they’ll take that BS into the FWC proceedings too).

But when you’ve just announced a $450m share buyback, it doesn’t pass the simplest of pub tests.

[walesregent]

I don’t know, as I don’t work there.

But given the yes vote was 47% at one point, it seems very close to the majority were happy with the gains in all other areas.

No doubt QF spent many millions more on trying to mitigate the industrial action than what it would have cost them to be paying the correct hourly rate into overtime.

I have no doubt the 47/53 vote would have been 51% yes had they not halved the overtime rate. No doubt there’s some pretty serious discussions behind closed doors at Mascot asking how NS stuffed this up so badly.

The argument has always been that they can’t possibly afford to pay a cent more (and they’ll take that BS into the FWC proceedings too).

But when you’ve just announced a $450m share buyback, it doesn’t pass the simplest of pub tests.

Time will tell but the company seems to have botched this terribly- being so, so close and then not getting a deal and poisoning the culture (including reporting culture- something that has obvious safety implications) in the process. That kind of thing has a legacy that they’ll be paying dearly for, for generations. Maybe a clean sweep of Qantas IR and NAA management can limit the damage but we all know how much they hate admitting mistakes…

As for affording a decent contract, they will be shortly surrounded by competitors with vastly superior conditions, so it’s more like whether they can afford not to have a decent contract.

[Slippery_Pete]

Well said that man.

A big win for NAA over the pilots at FWC (which I find unlikely) will just condemn the thing to fail anyway. They can’t crew flights as it is.

Virgin have recently joined those dots and worked it out 👍

The only operators to survive will be the ones who start treating pilots as assets.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The other side to this whole train wreck we are witnessing is that it exposes how absolutely inept IR and HR experts really are when it comes to their ability to pivot, leverage core competencies and establish paradigms in a challenging and competitive world. They really are one trick buzz word ponies who, while relieving the organisation of massive sums of money, are ensuring its downfall. If Qantas really want to continue to own the trough they all enjoy feeding from, it’s time to get WAY ahead of the curve and throw real T&Cs at us.

[Gas Chamber]

Company hopefully realises by now that NS is only interested in himself. Look what he did to his colleagues. Probably took 20 million in wages from his “mates” for a desk job. Well done douche.
He’ll burn the place down if it means a bonus. QF management reminds me of Boeing. Same personalities, Same MO (short term self interest).
I hope they can turn the place around before it’s too late.

[framer]

I hope they can turn the place around before it’s too late
Me too but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
For that to happen managers that have decision making power have to look one rank up and see a sign that things have changed.
The second tier of executive management have to look to the boss and see a legitimate change in direction otherwise every lower tier looks up and realises it’s ’business as usual’, and continues as always. There was a window of opportunity for this not long ago but it’s clear now that the senior ‘leadership’ are content to let legal and HR continue along the same path. No doubt they will get the same results. Further fragmentation which eventually reveals itself in the customer experience. There is another window of opportunity coming but again, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Can anyone post here the number of aircraft (NAA and NJS) arriving in the next year? And at what rate?

[Beer Baron]

Can anyone post here the number of aircraft (NAA and NJS) arriving in the next year? And at what rate?
NJS A220’s arrive; 3 this FY, 4 in 25 and 11 in 26.
Not sure about the NAA aircraft.

[wf747]

NJS A220’s arrive; 3 this FY, 4 in 25 and 11 in 26.
Not sure about the NAA aircraft.

https://investor.qantas.com/DownloadFile.axd?file=/Report/ComNews/20230824/02701426.pdf

Page #26

[C441]

The other side to this whole train wreck we are witnessing is that it exposes how absolutely inept IR and HR experts really are when it comes to their ability to pivot, leverage core competencies and establish paradigms in a challenging and competitive world.
As Alan Joyce demonstrated on many occasions during his tenure, the decisions are made in the board room and everyone below is tasked with carrying them out.

Even some of the most respected people in the industry were shown the door (almost literally) when they dared to question Alan's directives. Even though Alan has now moved on, those IR and HR staff tasked with carrying out the board's wages and conditions policies will be loath to even tiptoe off the path for fear that they too will be walking out the door. Safe is there to make sure they don't pursue any ideas of their own.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Safe is there to make sure they don't pursue any ideas of their own.

Ironic really that he can’t control the independent idea that those of us have by leaving.

[MBA747]

What is happening? Have QF won? It's all very quiet.

[aussieflyboy]

What is happening? Have QF won? It's all very quiet.

If you login to the AFAP website using your login details, click “My Membership” then “National PC” then “Network Aviation” you can read the latest update. Anything to do with Australian Courts is a slow process.

[v1bang]

There is a big problem at NAA.

1. The group is haemorrhaging pilots.
2. Trainers are being paid peanuts to train the constant flow of new GA pilots.
3. The uncertainly surrounding the Fokker seems to be spreading like wildfire. New 2 year plan seems to exist with F100 redundancies being used to solve vacant seats at NJS A220.
4. Providing Qantas don’t pull their Fair Work application, the handed down EBD will not bode favourably in their favour and they’ll be forced to cut down on costs again by forcing an entity covered by their stupid slavery policy to do the work.

Qantas will always win.

[framer]

they’ll be forced to cut down on costs again by forcing an entity covered by their stupid slavery policy to do the work.
They as in Qantas ? And which entity will do the flying to help them cut down on costs?

[v1bang]

They as in Qantas ? And which entity will do the flying to help them cut down on costs?

Yes, QF. They’ll just ‘expand’ NJS or any other subsidiary that falls under the QF wage policy and slowly relocate staff and aircraft to that branch using forced redundancies. Watch NJS get awarded new mining contracts that NAA used to serve. If I were RIO or any other mining company, I’d think twice about using NAA after all the strike stuff around. You can bet your last dollar that all the NAA and QF execs pinned the whole strike thing on the NAA pilot group.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Yes, QF. They’ll just ‘expand’ NJS or any other subsidiary that falls under the QF wage policy and slowly relocate staff and aircraft to that branch using forced redundancies. Watch NJS get awarded new mining contracts that NAA used to serve. If I were RIO or any other mining company, I’d think twice about using NAA after all the strike stuff around. You can bet your last dollar that all the NAA and QF execs pinned the whole strike thing on the NAA pilot group.

A few problems with your theory. They can’t expand NJS to accomodate the A220 as it is, let alone expand to absorb another entity. A world wide expression of interest by NJS yielded exactly fvck all and pilots are still leaving.

Mining Resources have started the ball rolling in the FIFO market, this trend will catch on as soon as it has proven to be a better solution than using airlines for crew rotation. QF will eventually be squeezed out of the mining sector, other than small operations that can’t justify owning their own aircraft.

QF management have been proven time after time to be untrustworthy when it comes to narrative management. They can hang whatever they want on pilots, no one is buying a word of it.

[josephfeatherweight]

Mining Resources have started the ball rolling in the FIFO market, this trend will catch on as soon as it has proven to be a better solution than using airlines for crew rotation. QF will eventually be squeezed out of the mining sector, other than small operations that can’t justify owning their own aircraft.
This 100%.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Qantas will always win.

If you call being so arrogant & greedy you managed to kill a golden goose then yes Qantas IR has won.

Crew resigning en masse to a new entrant paying $95k plus super for a FA.

[PrunePete]

Anyone able to share any upcoming dates for hearings/determinations or any relevant news/expectations for getting any more info?

[LivingtheDream46]

Looks to me like half the Pilots just gave up and accepted they would have to get a job somewhere else and started having interviews. The other half just gave up and accepted they work for a ****ty airline but like living in Perth for now, so will just hope for a better deal with FWA. Either way a bad outcome for all parties, moral & safety. Hats off Qantas you made another mess.

[Ollie Onion]

What Qantas has proved time and time again is that they always seem to come out on top. If FWA Australia delivers a **** deal or even a deal equal to the latest offer then Qantas will have won big time. They care more about precedent than a few pissed off pilots.

[dragon man]

FROM AN ARTICLE BY GOTTLIEBSEN IN THE AUSTRALIAN

“Commercial builders, recognising that the unions are totally supported by the government, are handing out 20 per cent-plus wage rises, over three years sometimes, accompanied by lower productivity. ”


So why should pilots amongst other aviation workers cop a 2 year wage freeze.

[Lead Balloon]

Because they do?

[Ollie Onion]

Pilots are a strange bunch, what other industry has the new workers so brainwashed that the workers are willing to pay to work or work for free to build experience? Or spend so much time fighting amongst themselves that Companies get away with murder. Even now when pilots are in desperate need Qantas Management still treats them like crap.

[neville_nobody]

Pilots are a strange bunch, what other industry has the new workers so brainwashed that the workers are willing to pay to work or work for free to build experience? Or spend so much time fighting amongst themselves that Companies get away with murder. Even now when pilots are in desperate need Qantas Management still treats them like crap.

It's due to the nature of the job and those who apply. We aren't really a unionised workforce, it's very much a individualist job with alot of responsibility carried by the PIC. The nature of flying and all the associated testing doesn't really attract someone who wants to be involved in a heavily unionised workforce. Ultimately the airlines in Australia have the best of both worlds really all the benefits of unionised worlforce ( one agrreement, locked in workforce who can't leave,) without all the hassles of traditional unionised workplaces and pilots are ridiculously motivated compared to the average work force participant. Which is also why we have just been going backwards industrially despite being a unionised workforce across the major airlines.

what other industry has the new workers so brainwashed that the workers are willing to pay to work or work for free to build experience?

Music, Modelling, Acting, Formula 1, much of professional sport, The law, medicine and chefs all get paid but the hours worked are very very long and the hourly rate ends up being very poor.
The top end of these all professions though get paid in the millions.

[Lead Balloon]

That waffle reminds me of the job applicant who, at interview, says their ‘faults’ include that their dedication to work often results in the sacrifice of free time and extra remuneration.

Here’s the truth: A “locked in workforce who can't leave” will get whatever remuneration package the employer chooses to provide (moderated by whatever award crumbs might have to be thrown).

[TooManyPineapples]

Looks to me like half the Pilots just gave up and accepted they would have to get a job somewhere else and started having interviews. The other half just gave up and accepted they work for a ****ty airline but like living in Perth for now, so will just hope for a better deal with FWA. Either way a bad outcome for all parties, moral & safety. Hats off Qantas you made another mess.

I’m sorry but what more should they have done exactly? Shake their fists at the sky and yell at the clouds? Half haven’t given up, the process is out of any individuals hands. Move on and accept reality, the action taken wasn’t effective in changing the deal enough for a yes vote.

[LostontheLOC]

Any news on the Network front?

[junior.VH-LFA]

Any news on the Network front?

https://qantas.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Qantas_Careers/job/Perth/Senior-Culture-Program-Manager_R97733?q=Culture

I reckon they might be doing alright.

[brokenagain]

https://qantas.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com...7733?q=Culture (https://qantas.wd3.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/Qantas_Careers/job/Perth/Senior-Culture-Program-Manager_R97733?q=Culture)

I reckon they might be doing alright.

Talk about a poisoned chalice!

you will be required to deep dive into the cultural and operational frameworks within the business to understand opportunities for improvement.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x553/a8770975_3a6a_443e_8222_79fa286aa46e_2013ea20b60cda94736d570 9e7a65cfa676dbf0f.png
​​​​​​​

[Transition Layer]

“Deep dive” :yuk:

[brokenagain]

Is somebody trying to meet a KPI of HR technobabble in that job ad? Engagement strategy, rebuild strategy, strategic alignment. What a wank.

[framer]

So the person they want in this role has “

10 years of cultural program design and delivery experience
Experience in strategy setting, program, and project management.


Basically they want someone who has sat in a management role for a minimum of ten years doing plenty of ‘blue sky thinking’ , engaging in ‘idea showers’ and identifying ‘pain points’.
If they really want a cultural shift they should identify a Check or Training Captain from one of the other subsidiaries who is well respected by both Management and line pilots and is known for their sensible balanced approach to all things flying, and pay them their normal salary plus $100k to do a 12 month fixed term contract whereby they get their own desk in Flt Ops and jump seat wherever hey want when they want and attend all Network Exec management meetings. They could easily identify all personnel who should be on the bus, and those who should be booted off the bus. When a culture goes this far south it won’t self correct without some restructuring. There are plenty of Trainers who fit this bill and many have previously held Flt Ops management deputy roles and are comfortable in an HQ environment. By appointing yet another master of theory who has never done four early returns or a double BOC, you are simply kicking the can along the road.

[ActiveLooker]

This is an old QF strategy for managers not delivering. The correct title should be Mentor to GMFO. The contract length is the time they give the GMFO to find another job. EBs dead baby!

[Slippery_Pete]

I just read the advert.

The more things change in the Qantas group, the more they stay the same.

There has been zero change in direction since Alan left the company.

The same contempt for staff and passengers. The same nothing was our fault mentality. The same throwing millions at consultancy for zero results.

The predictability is mind-numbing, and suggests to me that VH and the board actually have zero clue what they’re doing.

Hundreds of millions in ghost flight fines pissed away through poor decision making, but rather than pay NAA pilots what they’re worth, they’ll drag it off to Fairwork.

Make no mistake about it - QF management will continue to massively boost their own bonuses, blame everyone else for their errors and attempt to destroy terms and conditions for every employee group except for themselves.

To expect anything else in the future is lunacy.

Hopefully they get a monstrous fine and compensation package over the ground handlers which triggers a complete wipeout of the board and executive.

[BuzzBox]

Senior Culture Program Manager

Jaysus, what parallel universe do these people inhabit? Will this new manager be responsible for changing the management culture that constantly sh!ts on employees? That'd be a good place to start...

[MikeHatter732]

You really couldn't make this sh*t up! I thought it was a joke until I opened up the workday advert. Un-believable.

[SixDemonBag]

As long and you ‘deliver the deliverables’. Unbelievable

[nomess]

The role is just wasting time as anyone with half a brain would simply advise Management…

‘Errrrrr I think these peeps need a pay rise and decent deal’

They would then be fired. This is the type of people you are dealing with here which is why nothing will change.

[ActiveLooker]

Apparently our Network friends are going to get a token $18k per year retention bonus as communicated by the turbo prop boofhead. What a slap in the face! That’s $9k after tax or $375 per pay. Far cry from EK where Captains pocketed $100k tax free! I’m guessing this will have no bearing, nor should it, on peps decision to head to the Sandpit. Don’t be fooled guys, they are merely paying for your taxi home after a good rogering.

[nomess]

The talk today was at least 10 have EK interviews coming up. That will likely increase considering how well they have been looking after their troops.

[spc98075c]

The talk today was at least 10 have EK interviews coming up. That will likely increase considering how well they have been looking after their troops.

What talk is this about?

[ActiveLooker]

What talk is this about?

FYI, from a friend in HR at EK, 17 Network pilots scheduled for sim checks/ medical, 11 Mainline pilots and 6 NJS.

[Gas Chamber]

Does Emirates take direct entry captains at the moment?
good to hear mainline are leaving too. Show parasitic management some reality.
once my kids are sorted I’ll be looking too.
hey Emirates, how about you setup a Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne basing? That will be hilarious.
seniority system has destroyed supply/demand dynamic and the parasites feed on it.
we need one union or at least ones that collaborate and share resources.

[BuzzBox]

Does Emirates take direct entry captains at the moment?

Not hard to find:
Emirates - Airbus Direct Entry Captain (https://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/search-and-apply/334625)

[dr dre]

Not hard to find:
Emirates - Airbus Direct Entry Captain (https://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/search-and-apply/334625)

You need widebody PIC time for that role, but what would most interest NAA crew is the accelerated command option. If you’ve got 2000hrs A320 PIC (which a lot of Network crew would) the Accelerated option puts you in the RHS of an A380 for about 12 months then straight to 380 Command.

[v1bang]

Crew at NAA are now being paid less than cabin crew at Mineral Resources… how crap is that!

[Sameoldsameold]

Yeah??? I wonder how many pilots and flight attendants need professional psychological help, when they are always severely stressed out wondering how they can pay their bills or ever afford a basic standard of living. The only one here who needs help is you and the likes of you. When the day finally comes the likes of you will be quartered!

Hope you get the help you need. Best of luck

[Sameoldsameold]

Yeah for sure …..voice your opinion. More power to you. But when you start indicating that those who don’t toe your moral high ground line deserve to be lead down a dark alley is probably bordering on mentally unwell.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Here we go again. Click!