SK short Madeira visit

[Ancient Mariner]

SK short Madeira visit

Link (https://twitter.com/JacdecNew/status/1743747832622789005?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7 Ctwgr%5Etweet)

[JanetFlight]

The flames coming out from number one at the precise moment of touch down... Is that a compressor stall..?

[Airbanda]

The flames coming out from number one at the precise moment of touch down... Is that a compressor stall..?

Looks like it. Some of the commentary on X says it's a fake and not Funchal but the report and flight number, including diverting to LPA tally. Looks like an approach to 23 rather than 05 which features more commonly in videos.

Incident aircraft is still @ LPA. A replacement went down to LPA this morning reaching FNC via LPA, presumably to pick up pax.

[FUMR]

Having looked at maps etc., I would say it was FNC and it was runway 23. What you see is the NE side of the island not far from Caniçal and the Funchal (FUN) VOR.

[172_driver]

How's the A/THR in situations like this? Does it respond quick enough if you find yourself falling out of the sky, assuming no reactive WS warning? I am new to the A320 and surprised that there are not much focus on speed additives. Neither can you give a "straight arm" of boost to cushion the sink. Lots of trust (not thrust) is put in the GSmini and A/THR.

[amsm01]

How's the A/THR in situations like this? Does it respond quick enough if you find yourself falling out of the sky, assuming no reactive WS warning? I am new to the A320 and surprised that there are not much focus on speed additives. Neither can you give a "straight arm" of boost to cushion the sink. Lots of trust (not thrust) is put in the GSmini and A/THR.

It’s not coupled to the WS system but no, it wouldn’t do much here. Point taken on straight arming the thrust but that just isn’t the way the Airbus is operated anywhere, let alone a shortish runway like this. Had a fair bit of experience of this runway in this type and tbh, this was a pretty nasty example of the aircraft just being sucked out of the air. To me it looks like they were very slow in cottoning on, one does sometimes have to “catch” the aircraft in the situation it wants to fall out of the sky long before it lands itself and it does look like they belatedly tried to do that - but certainly this seems like this was on the sharper end of that kind of thing

[DuncanDoenitz]

Not trained on that engine, but I see nothing to precipitate a compressor stall. My 2-cents would be blade-tip rub due to shock loading.

[bravolima553]

The touchdown zone of RWY23 is located on the extended runway with the well-known bridge construction. Perpendicular to this zone, there is a small valley cut on the uphill side. I was told once by locals that the approach to 23 can be much more difficult than to 05 because offshore winds down this valley cut gust above and below this runway-bridge, causing rotating turbulences.

[Gero]

They pushed the nose down just few seconds before touchdown. You can see almost zero deg pitch. Then the flare was way too late. Pilot error. Not a WS.
That rwy is quite long. To protect from possible WS use flaps 3 and VLS plus 10.

[Pizza Express]

Gero you have no idea what you are talking about.

As someone who flys to FNC regularly on the same type I can say the last 100 ft can be unpredictable in strong winds, the pilot starts a pitch up at about 2 seconds after the initial severe increase in ROD and flys a text book bulked landing. Conf 3 and VLS plus 10 does not protect against wind shear it simply improves go around performance in the event of a go around. I suspect the approach and conditions were pretty challenging and things don’t always go to plan, typically pilots flying to FNC are at the top of their game and extremely well trained and in current flying practice. I see no difference here.

[Gero]

Pizza look at 0:04 sec into the video. The pitch was reduced quite a lot. Descend rate increased. Probably to correct for a papi. Too late for that. Shouldn't be done.
Then probably some downdraft which resulted in hard landing. Not a WS. GA was of course the only right decision.
Flaps 3 and vls plus 10 gives you not only a better GA performance but also much better handling capabilities when fighting turbulence but I see you have no idea about it.

[172_driver]

Thanks amsm01,

It’s not coupled to the WS system but no, it wouldn’t do much here.

I was thinking along the lines a reactive WS would require manual intervention at least, while a managed speed approach may give as little as Vls + 5 kts. if the actual wind were not as strong. It’s quite a contrast coming off the Boeing where turbulence rather than wind speed would be the prime driver for adding a few extra knots. I know it’s not exactly what the book says, but your bum does. It gave better prodection against sinkers like this.

​​​​​​​Nice recovery after all!

[Pizza Express]

Gero are you a current A320 captain qualified on FNC? Just wondering because it will provide a more robust context for your thoughts?

[Pizza Express]

The pitch you are talking about at 04 seconds has nothing to do with the resulting high ROD, the structure of the runway of 23 creates a vortex and is unpredictable and can be severe even when the wind is in limits, the PAPIs in the final stages of an approach become unreliable and the focus is on aiming point, also a quick check of your Airbus FCTM will inform you that Flap 3 if preferred for wind shear due better go around performance but flap full is preferred for controllability. My point was flap 3 doesn’t protect you from wind shear it only serves to make GA performance better.

[andrasz]

Not trained on that engine, but I see nothing to precipitate a compressor stall. My 2-cents would be blade-tip rub due to shock loading.

Probably BOTH. Momentary rubbing of the blade tips slowing the fan rotation, the consequent disturbed airflow causes the compressor stall.

[Gero]

Gero are you a current A320 captain qualified on FNC? Just wondering because it will provide a more robust context for your thoughts?

I train captains for FNC rating. Yes 320.

[flyer4life]

Current FNC qualified A320 captain here, 20 years on type. It looks to me like there was plenty of time to arrest the rate of descend earlier, especially considering the bounce was before the touchdown markers.

Flare was late and excessive, with enough AOA to climb away from runway. Maybe thrust levers were still in CLB.

However, RW23 can be a serious challenge in strong winds. Sometimes you’re trying to set the right pitch but the wind and vortices have other plans for you!

[JanetFlight]

But please, can anyone here clarify me...?
That flame its because of the hard touch, or by a mere coincidence in the universe it appears at the very same millisecond of the touch and its derivated from a surge//compressor stall wich doesn't have anything to do at all with an hard touch, and as said before it was a one in a million coincidence?
Could for instance that flame comes from a blade tip rub on the inner structure of number one eng due to hard touch, and nothing to do with a surge or stall, as a dear Pprune member said..?
Tks in advance.

[andrasz]

But please, can anyone here clarify me...?
Already done above. The high G forces cause the blade tips to rub against the wall, creating friction that suddenly slows the fan rotation, disturbing the airflow, which leads to a compressor stall. Once the G forces disappear, everything back to normal. By the time the wheels hit, engines were already in G/A mode advancing to full thrust, the state most susceptible to a stall.

[JanetFlight]

Already done above. The high G forces cause the blade tips to rub against the wall, creating friction that suddenly slows the fan rotation, disturbing the airflow, which leads to a compressor stall. Once the G forces disappear, everything back to normal. By the time the wheels hit, engines were already in G/A mode advancing to full trust, the state most suceptible to a stall.
Many tanx dear member 🙏

[shared reality]

I know this is a rumour forum, but for all of you, who is armchair quarterbacking this (and other) event wrt pitch angles, crew handling etc. You were not there, and you have no idea what kind of winds/ turbulence/ downsweeps etc were encountered by those at the pointy end.
For those of you actually operating into FNC, you know how challenging it can be, and how conditions can change in an instant.

As for this incident, the crew encountered a strong downburst close to touchdown and initiated a balked landing. Correctly executed as well, in my opinion, with TOGA and correct pitch (less than 10 ANU). Aircraft touched down with 2.4G, encountered a minor engine stall (as explained above), and diverted to LPA. Aircraft thoroughly checked, no damage, and is now back in revenue service. All in all, a solid performance by the crew. End of story.

[Pizza Express]

Agreed

[Gero]

Nobody wanted to criticize the crew. It’s just informal “debriefing” and somebody could learn from this. The crew did a good job. Flight finished safely.
The lesson here is - expect downdrafts. Especially rwy 23. Sometimes 05 as well. Do not correct (pitch down) at low height on final as your correction plus possible downdraft may result in hard landing. If too high and windy - go around.
i would always suggest F3 and Vls plus 10. That’s what I do and teach. That runway is long enough even for heavy 321 close to MLW. Extra speed will give you better handling to fight turbulence. Pitch up on flare is much smaller on that speed so be careful no to “overflare” but in case of downdraft you have more capabilities to arrest sink rate.

Stay safe.