PDA

View Full Version : FIC Training course hours


Williem Snail
14th Dec 2023, 09:02
Morning all.

I've seen references to 40 hours of the 125 hour FIC requirement being allowed as 'directed' or 'self' study. However, I can't find any mention of this in the regulations or guidance. Can anyone point me in the direction of any official documentation supporting this? It would also be interesting to know if there is any guidance on how much (if any) of the 125 hours could be done remotely, i.e. via Zoom. Not ideal mostly, granted, but useful to know...

Many thanks in aniticpation
WS

Genghis the Engineer
14th Dec 2023, 12:15
I'm sure you can wade through the regulations as well as we all can, but I did the majority of my recent FI course via Zoom, and yes a significant amount by self study. It's certainly doable, was documented, and the CAA were fine with it.

Subsequently I've been delivering PPL exercises briefings on Zoom as well in the evenings or on bad weather days, to get the most out of time at the airfield when the weather's good.

G

rarelyathome
14th Dec 2023, 23:09
I'm sure you can wade through the regulations as well as we all can, but I did the majority of my recent FI course via Zoom, and yes a significant amount by self study. It's certainly doable, was documented, and the CAA were fine with it.

Subsequently I've been delivering PPL exercises briefings on Zoom as well in the evenings or on bad weather days, to get the most out of time at the airfield when the weather's good.

G

The 125 hrs is not self-study. I have a view but will not comment on whether remote methods are the most suitable - the Teaching and Learning module will cover how that might be determined. The FI course requires much more than 125 hrs theoretical knowledge study so, of course, that can be self-study. I would question whether a remote pre-flight briefing is appropriate as it is most effective just before the flight which, by definition, is at the airfield.

Fl1ingfrog
15th Dec 2023, 13:29
I don't understand how all of the 125 hours of classroom briefings can be conducted remotely. For the course the knowledge is presumed; the ground briefing element is about how to teach the knowledge; engaging and responding to the student, how to effectively use the model and build with the student the board long and short briefs. For many this is not easy and requires a lot of instruction, practice and guidance, therefore the 125 hours. Ideally these hours should be conducted in a group environment with the others acting as the audience and providing feedback.

Anyone who has attended instructor renewing seminars cannot be unaware of how poorly too many instructors perform.

Genghis the Engineer
15th Dec 2023, 17:11
My last instructor renewal seminar, conducted by the well regarded On-Track, was online as well. With tools like Zoom or Teams, you can speak to each other, present slides, have group discussions, and even use the equivalent of a whiteboard.

Some things are best done face to face, without a doubt, but not everything needs to be. That clear lesson is surely one of the few positives to come out of Covid.

G

BEagle
15th Dec 2023, 17:44
I hear from the CAA that FI refresher seminars will no longer be permitted to be delivered on-line and that face-to-face seminars will henceforth become mandatory.

FE seminars will continue to be deliverable on-line though.

Genghis the Engineer
15th Dec 2023, 18:25
On-Track are still advertising online Instructor seminars on their website up to June 2026.

G

BEagle
15th Dec 2023, 19:20
Yes, I know that they are. Whether or not their on-line seminars will be moved to person-to-person remains to be seen....

rarelyathome
15th Dec 2023, 21:26
A seminarís one thing. Initial training, including that of FIs, is quite another.

Genghis the Engineer
16th Dec 2023, 20:59
Also, within reason, it won't be up to the student, but their FIC instructor how it's constructed.

G

3RDi
17th Dec 2023, 10:35
Briefing PPL lessons to a student via zoom and you don’t even fly? You need them in the classroom. I hope you’re not charging them extra. I know instructors like that.

hobbit1983
17th Dec 2023, 12:52
Crikey, lay off Genghis, will you guys? :ooh: There are definitely times when a PPL would benefit from online tuition on bad weather days. As he said, it's not all online.

Genghis the Engineer
17th Dec 2023, 14:29
Briefing PPL lessons to a student via zoom and you donít even fly? You need them in the classroom. I hope youíre not charging them extra. I know instructors like that.
Nope not charging them extra. Just doing the briefing at a mutually convenient time such as the evening before a scheduled flight, usually taking longer over it as we're not in a hurry to get to the aircraft, so that we can turn up in the morning, keep briefing time to a minimum and get the best out of the available flying time.

Or long briefs on bad weather days.

Welcome to 2023. Meetings, university lectures, instructor seminars, conferences are all being done online - often very effectively.

It can be done badly too, but so can face-to-face briefings.

G

Fl1ingfrog
17th Dec 2023, 18:06
Why shouldn't a professional charge for their time?

Genghis the Engineer
17th Dec 2023, 18:37
We should, but it would be unreasonable to charge more for doing things online versus face to face.

G

rarelyathome
17th Dec 2023, 23:43
I guess the point of a pre-flight briefing is similar to the captainís pre-take off brief. Itís all about immediacy. A pre-flight brief that is not immediately prior to the flight will be less effective. Itís all in the Teaching and Learning part of the FI course that seems to be so often skimmed over.

Genghis the Engineer
18th Dec 2023, 07:04
It's partly about immediacy, it's also about covering the required material with adequate thoroughness. And a half hour brief on Zoom the night before doesn't preclude a five minute verbal reminder just before walking to the aircraft.

G

Rho Tarbled
29th Dec 2023, 11:14
The clue for the pre-fight brief is in the title - 'brief' - that should cover the weather, aircraft, notams etc and only a confirmatory recap on what the sortie will include.

A full instructional lesson can be given in person or remotely.

The advantage of Genghis' online briefings is that there is no time pressure because of weather windows and aircraft availability - on the day of the flight the pre-flight brief is exactly that with little extra content other than the essentials.

MrAverage
29th Dec 2023, 17:29
I wear long briefs myself, or long johns as they're called in the shops, especially at this time of year.

Whopity
29th Dec 2023, 17:42
I've seen references to 40 hours of the 125 hour FIC requirement being allowed as 'directed' or 'self' study. However, I can't find any mention of this in the regulations or guidance
The regulation states the minimum requirements for the course. In order to run such a course you need an approval and that in turn requires a Training Manual. An ATO will specify how they intend to conduct their course and what the 125 hours of theoretical training will consist of and how it will be presented. If that is accepted by the Regulatory Authority then thats what the course will consist of. Most courses include an element of self study or briefing preparation. You will only find this specified in the ATO Training Manual.
If the ATO wishes to conduct part of the course online, they would include that in the TM, whether the NAA accepts it is another matter. having conducted FIC training for a number of years I can't think of anything worse than trying to do the job online. I personally wouldn't do it, others might have different ideas.

hobbit1983
30th Dec 2023, 11:36
oh yeah, it was a thread about an actual question! thanks Whopity!

olster
2nd Jan 2024, 23:20
Having been an FI and fairly obviously the recipient of flight training I have to say that there is a wide dichotomy between the academic world of FI training and the real world. Particularly in the realm of briefing / debriefing. While many hours may be spent on an FIC practicing prepared briefs, colour coordinated etc, the reality could be and often is a rush out to the airplane with minimal or no preparation. The nadir for me was some years ago for a C172 checkout at a well known central Scotland flight school. Running late due traffic although phoned ahead I arrived to be hurried straight through to the aircraft sans any kind of brief. I asked how long would this checkout take and was told by the visibly hacked off FI ‘as long as I can be sure you won’t kill me’. While I make no claims to being an ace, I do have 20,000 hours, predominantly airline but still somehow an enthusiasm for general aviation albeit waning due experiences such as this. It doesn’t really matter how much flying time I have but the point is that this hapless and useless FI did not take the time to ask my background and therefore tailor the sortie. We had a little tense chat while I conveyed my views…

Genghis the Engineer
3rd Jan 2024, 13:48
olster in particular - I've been an instructor for 13 years now, recently "upgrading" from CRI to FI, flying for around 33 years, and doing checkouts in interesting aeroplanes for around 20 - it was a huge relief to me when I first formally trained as an instructor to realise that my prejudices that a formal brief and debrief, and clear structure to an instructional flight were actually reinforced by the instructor training. I've also had those flights where I turned up, briefing was extremely minimal, went straight to the aircraft, and the instructor rushed stuff that really shouldn't be, or conducted things that weren't briefed.

No shortage of other bad practices I've seen whilst being a student too - I'll bet you all have too, so I don't need to detail them.

I'm totally relaxed about *how* a CRI or FI course is conducted, for me or anybody else, so long as it delivers instructors to test and thereafter with the skills and inclination to do the job properly. Ditto most other training. However this "skills and inclination" bit should never be negotiable, however delivered.

G