Are we ever going to see US style pay. If not, why not?

[CW247]

I have never witnessed so much hiring in the winter in my 20 year career. Roadshows, ads, choices galore. The pilot shortage, even if you think it's for experienced pilots only (which I personally think is not the case) and as short as it may last, has finally arrived. However, European airlines just do not seem to be increasing pay in the manner that would be expected in a typical Low Supply vs. High Demand scenario. In the US, salaries in some cases doubled over a period of 3 months. I want to use this thread to understand why the European market isn't reacting to a lack of supply like the US market did.

Thanks

[enzino]

I don't think we will ever see those figures in our payslip. Just look at the average annual insurance rate in the US and compare it to what we pay for our health care system in our respective countries. It's a different system altogether.

I am no economics expert.

Maybe the 1500 hour rule is also a factor. As a European I was against it when I was a low hour cadet, now that I have 3000 hours I would welcome it if that guaranteed an increase in our T&C's. Yes, I am selfish. And maybe here lies the problem; airlines can take in cadets. And after all, how can you reach 1500 hours in Europe? Instructing? Not many schools pay their instructors a liveable salary.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Well a couple of points that often get overlooked.

The USD is very strong right now. The euro hasn’t been around very long.
Compared to the pound in the last 50 years the pound has halved in value to the USD. Mid 80s yes pound hit a low against the dollar then it strengthened again. I remember when I went to NYC around 2007 it was $2 to £1. $500k salary “only” £250k here back then. BA top scales around that now.
Hard to compare like for like. Pint of beer in NYC now is around $14. London around £7 in a pub.
And yeah health care in US can wipe out $100k. Even with insurance it often doesn’t cover the full lot.

Another point I believe is a bigger influence is size and infrastructure.
Rail network is non existent. When I looked at going from SFO to LA. It’s around a 6hr drive. Train was double that or fly for $30 in 1 hour and they are every 30 mins. No brainer.
Yes airlines compete against each other but that’s in.
Certainly in France I have taken the train over long distances and not much difference in time compared to flying once you factor in airport faffing.

[roll_over]

I don’t think cost of living really makes much of a difference, sure the US is more expensive but if you are making double or triple the pay I don’t think it even factors. Surely if you work for a major carrier you get healthcare provided aswell? My friends who joined Atlas, they show me their rosters and it sure is a different world.

Americans are much more unionised, the country is far richer and the yanks seem much more open in discussing their pay. Just go the their version of pprune and you have pages and pages of people posting their yearly numbers, we are far more cagey. Europe has so many countries competing it’s just a race to the bottom.

[OutsideCAS]

And yeah health care in US can wipe out $100k

Can also now happen in the UK. Shame there isn't an NHS anymore.

[Qbix]

It's demand/supply rule. Same everywhere.
EU airlines suck 150h cadets. And there is plenty.

[911slf]

Can also now happen in the UK. Shame there isn't an NHS anymore.

It depends on what you have happen to you. Get seriously injured in any accident and the NHS will pick up the pieces, very few private sector hospitals will want to know. They are often good at elective surgery, where you don't need to be operated on at midnight on a Sunday, which the NHS has done for my next door neighbour.

And private sector hospitals work on the basis of 'in, cut, out'. My sister in law had private surgery for cancer of the ovaries, but as soon as complications arose, she was dumped into an NHS hospital.

For teeth and specs you do have to go private. And for important but not time critical operations like hips and knees, going private lets you jump the queue.

And if you lose your job for any reason, your NHS cover does not stop.

[Asturias56]

"the yanks seem much more open in discussing their pay. "

yes - it's a way of keeping the score - whereas in Europe everyone is very cagey about discussing their earnings..........

[menekse]

Higher entry requirements, higher salary
Low entry requirements, fly for food
That's how the market works in any profession
Plenty of instagram pilots who had the training payed by mom, are ready to accept any T&C and even do anything to get the jet job, as long as they can upload photos from a jet cockpit, mom will continue the financial support
I believe that the airlines have temporary gains by these useful idiots, just by luck accidents haven't occurred yet which will bust these airlines and are too many nowadays.
I opened a thread about nepotism in pilot selection where I clashed with posters who were trying to defend a specific airline that was hiring pilots below their published entry requirements. For 2023 only, this airline had two near crash incidents plus a numerous of less dangerous pilot induced incidents like runway excursions or hard landings. For another incident in 2021, the local CAA in the incident report blamed the company's pilot selection

Incident: Baltic BCS3 at Palanga on Jul 1st 2023, high rate of descent below minimum safe height, approach continued
By Simon Hradecky, created Friday, Nov 24th 2023 19:00Z, last updated Friday, Nov 24th 2023 19:00Z

An Air Baltic Bombardier C-Series CS-300, registration YL-CSA performing flight BT-375 from Riga (Latvia) to Palanga (Lithuania), was on approach to Palanga's runway 19 about to perform an ILS approach. About 11.5nm before the runway at 2000 feet the crew activated the APP autopilot mode, the descent rate increased to 2950 feet per minute below 1600 feet. The crew disconnected the autopilot at 1465 feet AGL (according to RADALT), the rate of descent decreased to 500 fpm before increasing again below 1200 feet AGL. 9nm before the runway threshold, while extending the landing gear, the aircraft descended below 1000 feet AGL at 133 KIAS, at 860 feet AGL the gear was completely extended. 8nm before the runway threshold, at 216 KIAS, flaps 1 were selected, the descent rate stabilized at 700 fpm for about 25 seconds followed by a climb of about 1500 fpm up to 1300 feet, which the aircraft maintained for about 40 seconds. At 5nm before the runway threshold the aircraft began to descend again still being more than 2 dots below the glidepath. The aircraft descended through 1000 feet AGL again at 900 fpm sink rate and 2.1 dots below the glideslope at 135 KIAS. A TAWS warning sounded, the aircraft levelled off at about 880 feet, the trajectory was corrected at 2.5nm before the runway threshold and the aircraft continued for a safe landing in the runway's touch down zone.

According to information The Aviation Herald received the crew was aware of possibly false localizer signals at Palanga according to NOTAMs, however, did not discuss this possibility during their approach briefing. When the crew activated the APP mode, the aircraft captured a false localizer signal immediately followed by capturing a false glideslope signal sending the aircraft into a steep dive. The crew disconnected the autopilot at about 3000 fpm sinkrate and initiated recovery, the aircraft reached a minimum height of 800 feet and 2nm offset from the extended runway centerline about 9nm before the runway threshold. Due to loss of situational awareness the crew did not initiate a go around but continued the approach. Due to terrain there are constraints to the approach procedure designs.



April 19 2023
An Air Baltic Bombardier C-Series CS-300 on behalf of Swiss International Airlines, registration YL-ABM performing flight LX-780 from Zurich (Switzerland) to Brussels (Belgium), was cleared for a VOR Approach to runway 07L when the crew initiated the final descent before the final approach fix. Descending through about 800 feet MSL about 6.5nm before the runway threshold the crew noticed the error and initiated a missed approach, climbed back to 4000 feet MSL, positioned for another approach to runway 07L and landed without further incident about 12 minutes later.
Belgium's Air Accident Investigation Unit have opened an investigation into the occurrence adding that the occurrence happened in VMC.


that's an incident report from a 2021 runway excursion

The investigation has analysed the all available (provided) information about the training process of the pilot involved in the serious incident and suggests that there are potential gaps in the company pilots’ selection

And of course plenty of videos like this one from Europe's favorite airline

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECXGvEV_yWE

[menekse]

I don’t think cost of living really makes much of a difference, sure the US is more expensive but if you are making double or triple the pay I don’t think it even factors. Surely if you work for a major carrier you get healthcare provided aswell? My friends who joined Atlas, they show me their rosters and it sure is a different world.

Americans are much more unionised, the country is far richer and the yanks seem much more open in discussing their pay. Just go the their version of pprune and you have pages and pages of people posting their yearly numbers, we are far more cagey. Europe has so many countries competing it’s just a race to the bottom.
I work in Middle East, no unions here still I make times more than in my EU country
Got the job as type rated, with hours on type and fast jet experience
In fly for peanuts EU jobs it's enough to have a license and have bought and practice these stupid tests and buy some hours for the sim used in the assessment

[Check Airman]

From the outside looking in, I see 3 major differences.



Firstly, our European colleagues tend to be more secretive about contracts. Not sure why this is so. It’s pretty easy to get the contract of any carrier in the US. That contract will spell out pay and work rules for all the pilots at that airline.



Secondly, all pilots work under the same contract. It doesn’t matter if you’ve been with the company for 3 months or 30 years. The same work rules, pay rates and retirement provisions apply. A rising tide lifts all boats.



Thirdly, the 1500hr ATP rule not only increased safety, but put a stop to people with 250hrs flying part 121. In Europe, I gather that 250 hrs gets you into a Boeing or Airbus. It probably doesn’t hurt to get some experience before becoming a student pilot in an A320. By the time you have 1500 hrs, you’re probably less likely to be willing to work for peanuts.

[Sam Ting Wong]

North America is the only region that has a pilot shortage at present, equivalent to about 11% of supply, or 8,000 pilots, consulting firm Oliver Wyman said in July.

Europe and Asia have pilot surpluses that are expected to remain until the middle and end of the decade respectively, it said.

The pay rises being achieved by pilots outside the United States reflect the different supply situation and are often in line with the percentage gains on offer to all airline employees as the business recovers from the pandemic and inflation rises.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/why-us-airline-pilot-wages-are-outpacing-global-rises-2022-12-05/

[menekse]

I have never witnessed so much hiring in the winter in my 20 year career. Roadshows, ads, choices galore. The pilot shortage, even if you think it's for experienced pilots only (which I personally think is not the case) and as short as it may last, has finally arrived. However, European airlines just do not seem to be increasing pay in the manner that would be expected in a typical Low Supply vs. High Demand scenario. In the US, salaries in some cases doubled over a period of 3 months. I want to use this thread to understand why the European market isn't reacting to a lack of supply like the US market did.

Thanks
I see these ads too. Especially the ones with the 1.60 height girls wondering if they can reach the overhead panel. Mainly from wizz

[Sam Ting Wong]

Well a couple of points that often get overlooked.

The USD is very strong right now. The euro hasn’t been around very long.
Compared to the pound in the last 50 years the pound has halved in value to the USD. Mid 80s yes pound hit a low against the dollar then it strengthened again. I remember when I went to NYC around 2007 it was $2 to £1. $500k salary “only” £250k here back then. BA top scales around that now.
Hard to compare like for like. Pint of beer in NYC now is around $14. London around £7 in a pub.
And yeah health care in US can wipe out $100k. Even with insurance it often doesn’t cover the full lot.

Another point I believe is a bigger influence is size and infrastructure.
Rail network is non existent. When I looked at going from SFO to LA. It’s around a 6hr drive. Train was double that or fly for $30 in 1 hour and they are every 30 mins. No brainer.
Yes airlines compete against each other but that’s in.
Certainly in France I have taken the train over long distances and not much difference in time compared to flying once you factor in airport faffing.

14$ for a pint in NYC seems quite inflated. The average I believe is maybe half of that. Health insurance as pilot is covered.

Switzerland, Norway, Luxemburg, Paris and London, Singapore, Sydney, Tokyo, Hong Kong, all at least as expensive as the US average I would argue.

https://www.economist.com/big-mac-index

Menekse, not sure if it is helpful to stereotype newjoiners the way you do. The debate about sponsored type rating etc is decades old, but the pay diversion is a very recent phenomena. It hence doesn't appear to be the key factor.

[Luray]

Menekse pretty much summed it up. EU is taken over by low cost airlines that dictate TC's. They are clever and their scheme rely on endless supply of fresh pilots and shady contractor agencies. Whenever they feel they need more pilots they prefer not to improve TCs but rather lower enty requirements and get influx of zero hour pilots bonded for TR and dumping cycle repeats itself constantly.
1500 h rule is not an option for EU. It might cause low cost model crash with bankruptcies and redundancies. Of course there could be compromisible solution but why bother if everyone is happy and system works more or less. Untill unlucky 250 h instagram cowboy cfits 3 nm before touchdown nothing will change.

[galaxy flyer]

Heck, compare US and Canadian Pilot income—huge gap. For the EU/UK, compare the per capita GDP to see where the money comes from. US per capita discretionary spending dwarfs EU’s.

https://ecipe.org/publications/comparing-economic-growth-between-eu-and-us-states/#:~:text=The%20US%20economy%20has%20clearly,of%20the%20US%20 in%202021.

[menekse]

Guys, it's not a science or magic tricks. GDP etc are relevant to minimum wage or welfare checks, not to pilot salaries.
In some regions of the planet they want ''good'' pilots and are willing to pay for them. I have EU passport, hold an EASA license and I make 12k per month plus free accommodation and tickets home. I work in Middle East, is not that far from Europe.
If tomorrow my company opens for unexperienced pilots willing to come over here for 2k of course they will change my contract to fly for food too. For now at least they are not willing risk.
That's the market and that's what happened in the most of EU airlines
That's the same for any profession. If I have a restaurant and I want an experienced chef I will pay him accordingly. To save some money I can risk to hire someone just out of the chef school or someone who was working in McDonalds before

[spiffolo]

The pilot shortage, even if you think it's for experienced pilots only (which I personally think is not the case).

Thanks

I'm intrigued by how you came to this conclusion. Till now I've only seen lots and lots of ads(Europe, and a bit of worldwide) begging any pilot with at least 1k hours or 500 on machine to apply, but barely anyone is trying for NTR or if they do they get so many CVs that they can pick whoever fancy their tingly for that 2 maybe 3 spots.....I'm honestly curious on why you think the shortage is not only for exp pilots

Unless you mean low hours but TR and not just out of the school pilots, then move on and don't answer my question:)

[CW247]

I have seen non TR A320, B737 and ATR opportunities this week.

[Hitchiker]

In some regions of the planet they want ''good'' pilots and are willing to pay for them. I have EU passport, hold an EASA license and I make 12k per month plus free accommodation and tickets home.
Menekse…
12000 k is the average gross salary of a pic in Europe,if you think that they are paying you good money in the sandpit,where I have been,then you should revise your thoughts and ask for salary increase…
Are you spending your nights flying I guess?And from your thoughts I can see that you are still a young gun …let’s talk about it in few years from now after many nights lost …
Golden age in Middle East is over since long time,that’s why they can no longer attract westerners.
They can mostly only get single guys,single child families and people coming from places where just walking on the street could be a threat.
A family there to be able to save money would struggle like they would in EU,then I would rather do it in my home country
just my 2 cents

[Basicsteve]

In this ever changing world I personally think get the most amount of cash as fast as you can and invest invest invest ! Also start a side hustle !
just look at Covid ….
now look at the wars etc..

in my previous company we had a 34 year pay scale !!! Made me laugh when people said “when I get to year 30 etc…”

In aviation disaster is just 1 step around the corner.

[spiffolo]

I have seen non TR A320, B737 and ATR opportunities this week.


Yeah, I saw (and applied with other 3 colleagues) to the one you think of i believe, but one thing is posting an ad, the other is actually hiring.....for how I see it, its mostly as a "we have to post it but dont really care about it"

One example which means nothing overall is for a small regional Irish company with an ad went from NTR 150tt posting to TR 1000tt and 200 on machine in the span of two weeks.....which means they got loads of CVs for the first, dumped all and reposted when notice that the "shortage" is only real for experienced pilots


Anyway, to avoid derailing this thread, ill go back to my corner lurking:ok:

[Garcia37]

I have seen non TR A320, B737 and ATR opportunities this week.

Yeah, I saw (and applied with other 3 colleagues) to the one you think of i believe, but one thing is posting an ad, the other is actually hiring.....for how I see it, its mostly as a "we have to post it but dont really care about it"

One example which means nothing overall is for a small regional Irish company with an ad went from NTR 150tt posting to TR 1000tt and 200 on machine in the span of two weeks.....which means they got loads of CVs for the first, dumped all and reposted when notice that the "shortage" is only real for experienced pilots


Anyway, to avoid derailing this thread, ill go back to my corner lurking:ok:

Most of the jobs are for sure Type Rated. There might be some non TR jobs but we'd have to see the Terms and Conditions.
It's true, there is 1 or maybe 2 airlines that have a good salary and roster.
However, all that glitters is not gold. That airline has had the position open for a while, and even if you apply, they might call you, but maybe in 3, 6 or 9 months. Then call you for an interview, make you wait for the sim and then you'd be in a pilot pool.

That means that, although there is a captain shortage, there is not a FO or brand new cadets shortage. Therefore they have no need to improve salaries, as there are tons of cadets willing to pay +30k€ on top of the 60k-120k€ that's already been paid. Supply and Demand, as they say.
And we can heavily discuss or disagree with the 1500h rule, but that surely has given a heavy leverage to Americans pilot.

[HidekiTojo]

Most of the jobs are for sure Type Rated. There might be some non TR jobs but we'd have to see the Terms and Conditions.
It's true, there is 1 or maybe 2 airlines that have a good salary and roster.
However, all that glitters is not gold. That airline has had the position open for a while, and even if you apply, they might call you, but maybe in 3, 6 or 9 months. Then call you for an interview, make you wait for the sim and then you'd be in a pilot pool.

That means that, although there is a captain shortage, there is not a FO or brand new cadets shortage. Therefore they have no need to improve salaries, as there are tons of cadets willing to pay +30k€ on top of the 60k-120k€ that's already been paid. Supply and Demand, as they say.
And we can heavily discuss or disagree with the 1500h rule, but that surely has given a heavy leverage to Americans pilot.

VS just upped their SO and FO pay to try to stem the tide of leavers. No rise for CPTs.

[Garcia37]

VS just upped their SO and FO pay to try to stem the tide of leavers. No rise for CPTs.
Doesn't change what I said, at all. One specific airline improving their conditions doesn't mean that there isn't a surplus of SO and FOs.
I'll give you an example. Vueling put an offer some weeks ago. It was for non Type Rated FOs, and they required 150-200h. What ended up happening? They were overfilled with TR experienced guys and they mostly chose them instead. Also, Air Europa Express, as far as I know got over 500CV in a week for 15 spots, and I've heard they pay 2-2,5k€ even for maximum hours.

One given example or particular situation doesn't change how things really are. The other user is right, try to dive deep into the job offers, and two weeks later, see how they evolve.

[Birdbirdbirdstheword]

VS just upped their SO and FO pay to try to stem the tide of leavers. No rise for CPTs.


Their offer was risible to start with, so 'upping it' to go and work for the worst gig in the UK at the moment isn't exactly tempting.

Despite all the comments above, the single reason that the US airlines have better pay is the strength of the unions there.

Like it or not, balpa et al will never ever have the strength to achieve anything like the US unions achieve. So you're stuck with whatever crap the UK airlines wish to heap upon you....

[menekse]

Menekse…
12000 k is the average gross salary of a pic in Europe,if you think that they are paying you good money in the sandpit,where I have been,then you should revise your thoughts and ask for salary increase…
Are you spending your nights flying I guess?And from your thoughts I can see that you are still a young gun …let’s talk about it in few years from now after many nights lost …
Golden age in Middle East is over since long time,that’s why they can no longer attract westerners.
They can mostly only get single guys,single child families and people coming from places where just walking on the street could be a threat.
A family there to be able to save money would struggle like they would in EU,then I would rather do it in my home country
just my 2 cents
It's 12k in my pocket plus per diems. I don't like the place too but 12k is 12k

[AIMINGHIGH123]

It's 12k in my pocket plus per diems. I don't like the place too but 12k is 12k

What is your long term goal though?

I crunched the numbers to death before making my decision. Long term it would be a risk. 30 years in the ME? Even with command salary and everything it’s not worth it. Or end up doing less time and back to a LCC in LHS. No thanks.
At least where I am I can go LH stay SH,part time options, live pretty much where ever I want as long as I can get to work. Honestly the amount I am clearing each month is more than I was expecting. Earliest check in is 5am. Latest landing SH is 23.30 back at base. No night flying.
I have so much more energy than I did before and overtime is there if I want it.

[menekse]

What is your long term goal though?

I crunched the numbers to death before making my decision. Long term it would be a risk. 30 years in the ME? Even with command salary and everything it’s not worth it. Or end up doing less time and back to a LCC in LHS. No thanks.
At least where I am I can go LH stay SH,part time options, live pretty much where ever I want as long as I can get to work. Honestly the amount I am clearing each month is more than I was expecting. Earliest check in is 5am. Latest landing SH is 23.30 back at base. No night flying.
I have so much more energy than I did before and overtime is there if I want it.
I have already passed the assessment of a nice EU company, for now they will proceed with the TR guys, for the rest like me, they will start training later for 2024 summer. Money will be less but I have already bought my own house and looking to buy another one to put on short staying platforms

[Basicsteve]

What is your long term goal though?

I crunched the numbers to death before making my decision. Long term it would be a risk. 30 years in the ME? Even with command salary and everything it’s not worth it. Or end up doing less time and back to a LCC in LHS. No thanks.
At least where I am I can go LH stay SH,part time options, live pretty much where ever I want as long as I can get to work. Honestly the amount I am clearing each month is more than I was expecting. Earliest check in is 5am. Latest landing SH is 23.30 back at base. No night flying.
I have so much more energy than I did before and overtime is there if I want it.

Yes sounds like BA works for you , that’s fantastic! BA didn’t work for me . This chap wants the ME , I want Jet2 my mate wants Easy.

people have different things they want in life so let them be

[menekse]

Yes sounds like BA works for you , that’s fantastic! BA didn’t work for me . This chap wants the ME , I want Jet2 my mate wants Easy.

people have different things they want in life so let them be
Who told that wants ME?
EU pilot jobs are dominated by low salaries and in some cases nepotism which also induces low salaries. You keep your mouth shut if you were favored. That led me to ME and now I don't care about the inflation or whatever.I was following another thread where pilots discussing the grocery prices or if it fine to commute to the airport on a public bus! Now I had my chance with a nice EU company I am coming back, but not many ''nice'' companies left in EU. And that is what the thread is about and not personal preferences

[night mission]

The USA being heavily unionized in aviation has helped at top tier airlines, but the regional feeders have not benefited by unionization like their big iron colleges. Entry level airline jobs in the USA had, until COVID induced convulsions, kept pilot pay quite low for the entry level aviator. The top pay for CAPT's was only about double entry pay and still below what a 2nd or 3rd year pilot would make at a legacy US air carrier. Poor pay and conditions at regional airlines along with bad T&C's plus a lot of bad press over several years had its affect on dissuading younger potential avatars from considering the career. Bad terms and pay had the affect of lowering numbers. The airlines had a problem in attracting and keeping new hires, but felt comfortable with how their T&C's were not impacting attrition hier up the seniority latter. So outside their contracts, they offered hiring bonuses to persuade pilots to join even though post 1st year rates remained poor. The unions counldn't influence the process, as it was terms to induce hiring, not contacted pay. It worked until it didn't. With major airlines poaching heavily, regionals couldn't keep enough staff in the CAPT's seat to man the flights and no amount of (reasonable money) was going to keep anyone onboard any longer then they had to. The dilemma has created a situation where these carrier has to basically double pay to keep or attract staff. The pilot shortage that many hoped for, most believe would never happen, and airlines begrudging are dealing with (at least the bottom feeders deluded themselves ,they could avoid or manage) has boosted both pay and interest in airline flying beyond anyones recent dreams.

Fear not, when supply and demand swings back in favor of employers, the affect on pay and terms will be fast and harsh. Unions will have no effect on keeping recent gains, just as improvements in pay have has no effect in keeping pilots from jumping to better pay and prestige airlines when they get the offers. It just the way it is.

[Northern Monkey]

There is an interesting debate raging in another place regarding the efficacy or otherwise of industrial action, particularly in the UK. Some people seem to believe it is merely a case of willpower. If we had the guts to take more industrial action - specifically in the UK - then we would see better results.

I find this unpersuasive personally. If I was a shareholder in any large company, the sort of wholesale shift in industrial landscape which would be caused by a capitulation to strike action, threatened or otherwise, would be detrimental to my long term interests. It would undermine every pay negotiation going forwards and potentially result in far greater disruption in the future (witness the railways). This, I personally believe, is why it is unlikely that industrial action would cause a meaningful closure in the pay disparity.

People have correctly identified that what has caused the upward pressure on pay in the US is recruitment & retention. These issues are not playing big in the UK as of yet, the chief reason being unlimited access to lour hour cadets.

The other thing to consider in all of this is the wider economic differences between the UK and the US. The tax regime, economic growth etc. All industries and professions in the UK especially have seen real terms stagnation or decline in their purchasing power over the last 20 years, particularly since the financial crisis. We are hardly alone in this respect.

[bafanguy]

People have correctly identified that what has caused the upward pressure on pay in the US is recruitment & retention. These issues are not playing big in the UK as of yet, the chief reason being unlimited access to lour hour cadets.

If the EU were to up the required post-licensing hours for aspiring airline F/Os, would the industry/aviation infrastructure over there be able to provide some mechanism to get these low-hour pilots a sizeable increase in hours to satisfy increased hour requirements ?

[Kenny]

I’ve spent 20 something years in US aviation and the current pilot shortage is down to a variety of things…..

Huge amount of retirements, that were delayed by upping the retirement age from 60-65.
1500 hour rule and the costs to get into the right seat of an RJ put a lot off the job.
The massive expansion of Delta and more so United.
There are other reasons but you get the idea.

United currently have 16500 pilots and want 28000 by the end of the decade. So they are essentially in a bidding war with Delta and to a lesser extent American.

We shall see how that pans out.

[roll_over]

It's 12k in my pocket plus per diems. I don't like the place too but 12k is 12k

12K is only 12k because the tax regime is low, your company is not paying you a lot, it only feels like a lot compared to a salary in Europe. You have some spending money if you are single and with a family live a relatively ok life. It’s not big bucks, I used to earn a similar amount. Compared to people scraping by paycheck to paycheck it’s a lot I take that but don’t kid yourself you are earning a lot.

I clear about £6300 after tax, it’s enough for a small apartment, living an ok life and some savings as a single person. No living the good life or expensive holidays.

[rudestuff]

I clear about £6300 after tax, it’s enough for a small apartment, living an ok life and some savings as a single person. No living the good life or expensive holidays.Reality check: You take home £4000 more than the AVERAGE person in the UK. You can have as many expensive holidays as you like and a Lamborghini parked outside your small flat.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Is a pilot an "average" profession?
Soon, probably😂

[Northern Monkey]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1056x1184/img_0411_c9b926cd18d482c46334854da3b30252ed579507.jpeg

This graphic always shocks me but it’s perhaps worth a reminder considering the post above.

[VariablePitchP]

Is a pilot an "average" profession?
Soon, probably😂

Last time I checked the price of milk for a pilot is the same as it is for an average person.

If you’re taking home £6300 a month, single, in just a flat, and not saving/investing at least £4000 a month then there’s something horribly wrong.

[HidekiTojo]

Reality check: You take home £4000 more than the AVERAGE person in the UK. You can have as many expensive holidays as you like and a Lamborghini parked outside your small flat.

You need the reality check.

[menekse]

Reality check: You take home £4000 more than the AVERAGE person in the UK. You can have as many expensive holidays as you like and a Lamborghini parked outside your small flat.
Reality check
I joined the Air Force at 18, spent some years in a place like a prison (academy), flew fighter jets, left the job security of military, later flew passengers, I have a proficiency check every six months, medical every year, left my hometown, working on holidays and nights, a mistake of mine can have catastrophic consequences and yet we talk about average salaries, GDP, unions and taxes and be happy that we make more than a bartender (not all of us)

[Sam Ting Wong]

Last time I checked the price of milk for a pilot is the same as it is for an average person.

If you’re taking home £6300 a month, single, in just a flat, and not saving/investing at least £4000 a month then there’s something horribly wrong.

If you are single and happily living on 2300 net than chances are you will remain single😂

[TheAirMission]

If you are single and happily living on 2300 net than chances are you will remain single😂
Ironic from a Communist.

[JM926]

12K is only 12k because the tax regime is low, your company is not paying you a lot, it only feels like a lot compared to a salary in Europe. You have some spending money if you are single and with a family live a relatively ok life. It’s not big bucks, I used to earn a similar amount. Compared to people scraping by paycheck to paycheck it’s a lot I take that but don’t kid yourself you are earning a lot.

I clear about £6300 after tax, it’s enough for a small apartment, living an ok life and some savings as a single person. No living the good life or expensive holidays.


with all due respect, with this salary you are in the top few percent of earners in the uk. If you’re living as you describe then surely your apartment must be in the one of the most expensive/exclusive parts of the county. Your salary is more than most people would ever see in their working lives, and by a big margin

for the record, I’m not saying that you earn too much or that the industry in the uk as a whole doesn’t deserve to rise towards the US salaries. Just a nudge to say that if you talk to the average person, £6300 is seen as a salary with which you should be able to live a very comfortable life in most areas of the UK

[galaxy flyer]

Does £6300 after tax equal about £10,000 PRE-tax, I’m just guessing, which is about US$12,700 per month gross. Decent salary here, but probably anout 2/3rds of second year legacy major income.

[spiffolo]

If the EU were to up the required post-licensing hours for aspiring airline F/Os, would the industry/aviation infrastructure over there be able to provide some mechanism to get these low-hour pilots a sizeable increase in hours to satisfy increased hour requirements ?


personally I don't think so. US has a lot of low level jobs for fresh out of school pilots(EG: crop dusting, banner flying, pipe checking, paradropping, aerial photography etcetc) apart of instructor obviously, in the EU lots of those aren't as present(if im not wrong in all the Mediterranean area there is only 1 company that does banner flying in Portugal and is tied to a flight school from spain so a dude from Poland or Italy or whatever other EU member state wouldn't make the cut most likely) it wouldn't be able to sustain a hichups, let alone a constant, stream of Low hours FO similar like the US.

Let's take as a dumb example PCC lowhours section, go and have a laugh on the type of posting is there, not for the type but rather the min requirement or the amount of companies that actually are there(especially in EU region).... I mean, unless they revamp a lot to search any type of low level companies helping the search(and I mean this as a way for fresh out of school to get better informations as they usually only have word of mouth and quick google search to find such low level jobs) i dont see it to ever get closer at all

[rudestuff]

Reality check
I joined the Air Force at 18, spent some years in a place like a prison (academy), flew fighter jets, left the job security of military, later flew passengers, I have a proficiency check every six months, medical every year, left my hometown, working on holidays and nights, a mistake of mine can have catastrophic consequences and yet we talk about average salaries, GDP, unions and taxes and be happy that we make more than a bartender (not all of us)
And I agree you should get paid more than average. But that wasn't the point. When someone claims that a single person earning 2.5x the average UK salary can barely make ends meet they're clearly not living in the real world.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Disclaimer, because this gets overlooked easily. Average salary looks at workers only. Self-employed are excluded as is any income from capital/ dividends/shares etc. The average "working" individual makes actually more. Example: an NHS doctor disappears the moment he/she goes private later in his career, and any additional income before that never enters the statistics. Same with finance industry boni, stock options for tech guys, company car/accomodation, school fee assistance etc. Obviously other forms of income, eg property, bonds, stocks etc are not included either.

In other words, an average salary does not mean an average purchase power measured across the population.

[Hitchiker]

Gentlemen
i honestly do not understand why , when discussing about our salaries ,people start with
“The average earner makes….”or “people make 1000 gbp/eur month we should not complain.”
We cannot compare our profession to many other jobs ,remuneration included ,unless we all want to go back to communism where everybody earned the same no matter which title he/she held with all related consequences.
Our job is highly qualified,for some reason in EU the press,public opinion,want to make it look like any other job but the reality is quite different for some reasons:
Dynamic operational environment subject to many sudden and unexpected changes.
huge variety of the above mentioned elements mixing with the interaction of us as human beings
responsibility for other people lives and so on.
you can’t tell me that these elements are common to all the other jobs when people compare pilots to many others workers ,because that would be totally unfair.For some reasons,I call it envy,related to the past pilots are seen as overpaid people when there are many other categories that could be genuinely looked at for getting an excessive amount of money.I would probably say that especially nowadays pilots really work their butts off as never before so they would deserve a proper salary.
Another curious thing which I have noticed is that eu cockpit association is blaming atypical self employment contracts for pilots….well it’s easy to talk when you are comfortably working for a legacy carrier with all the protections you need,blaming others that are “lowering the working terms and conditions”i have a solution for that!
stop freaking using the national language as a requirement to access the screening for your national airlines as a protection not to let non national pilots in because that is another contribution
to the growth of the so called atypical contracts for pilots and acmi proliferation….let everybody have a chance ,do not keep the pie all for you unless you are afraid of losing your privileges …

[bafanguy]

Returning to CW247's original question: "If not, why not?" Could it be because sufficient numbers of pilots are turning up willing to work for existing conditions ?

If management don't see the business plan being threatened by lack of crews, why would they spend money improving those conditions ? All that matters is money.

[VariablePitchP]

Gentlemen
i honestly do not understand why , when discussing about our salaries ,people start with
“The average earner makes….”or “people make 1000 gbp/eur month we should not complain.”
We cannot compare our profession to many other jobs ,remuneration included ,unless we all want to go back to communism where everybody earned the same no matter which title he/she held with all related consequences.
Our job is highly qualified,for some reason in EU the press,public opinion,want to make it look like any other job but the reality is quite different for some reasons:
Dynamic operational environment subject to many sudden and unexpected changes.
huge variety of the above mentioned elements mixing with the interaction of us as human beings
responsibility for other people lives and so on.
you can’t tell me that these elements are common to all the other jobs when people compare pilots to many others workers ,because that would be totally unfair.For some reasons,I call it envy,related to the past pilots are seen as overpaid people when there are many other categories that could be genuinely looked at for getting an excessive amount of money.I would probably say that especially nowadays pilots really work their butts off as never before so they would deserve a proper salary.
Another curious thing which I have noticed is that eu cockpit association is blaming atypical self employment contracts for pilots….well it’s easy to talk when you are comfortably working for a legacy carrier with all the protections you need,blaming others that are “lowering the working terms and conditions”i have a solution for that!
stop freaking using the national language as a requirement to access the screening for your national airlines as a protection not to let non national pilots in because that is another contribution
to the growth of the so called atypical contracts for pilots and acmi proliferation….let everybody have a chance ,do not keep the pie all for you unless you are afraid of losing your privileges …

All totally and utterly irrelevant if there is more supply than demand.

You think we work hard? Try working a night shift at McDonald’s or in a care home. Far harder, paid pennies compared to pilots.

More pilots than jobs, crap pay. Less pilots than jobs, more pay. Anything else is meaningless.

[menekse]

Returning to CW247's original question: "If not, why not?" Could it be because sufficient numbers of pilots are turning up willing to work for existing conditions ?

If management don't see the business plan being threatened by lack of crews, why would they spend money improving those conditions ? All that matters is money.


More pilots than jobs, crap pay. Less pilots than jobs, more pay. Anything else is meaningless.
We should define ''pilot''
Is considered pilot someone with a PPL?
Someone with a CPL and 200 hours on pistons?
You can pretty much buy a license, some extra hours till you learn how to land, some extra hours before the first solo and memorize a question bank.
In the Air Force if you were not cleared for solo flight after a specific amount of flight time you were kissing your flight career goodbye. I don't think flight schools are kicking out students that are weak pilots, they would go out of business.
Afterwards you can buy some interview preparation tests and some hours on the sim you expect the assessment.
That's why there are so many pilots in the market. They can just buy the license and the assessment preparation.
Until harder entry requirements are enforced and followed (some airlines officially have hard requirements but hire below these requirements) don't expect any true money. They will always find someone for less money, till CFITs
That's what happens in ME that's why you can pocket some descent money and I read the same in US

I am not saying that there are no good pilots without military background. I am saying that more filters should apply than a license or an assessment that you can buy the perfect preparation

[Garcia37]

If the EU were to up the required post-licensing hours for aspiring airline F/Os, would the industry/aviation infrastructure over there be able to provide some mechanism to get these low-hour pilots a sizeable increase in hours to satisfy increased hour requirements ?

Really good question.

I was going to answer you, but it's basically the same asspiffolo said above.

We don't (Europe) have enough GA jobs to implement a 1500h rule and pump up those T&C's and salaries.
We are so focused on commercial-airline aviation that it sucks. Other GA jobs, even for business or medical transport jets, crop dusting, pipeline patrol (I don't think we even have that) are really niche and simply not enough. It was once, though.
Even some of them are dying by technology (drones) and others by the EU law (crop dusting in Spain at least).
​​
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[CaptainProp]

No, we will never se the same level of pay in Europe. Reason? Mainly because Europe isn’t a combination of states within the same country like in the US. This leaves unions powerless in companies that employ staff in multiple states. There are trans-national efforts, but so far they’ve lead to very little when it comes to pay and general T&Cs.

CP

[bafanguy]

We should define ''pilot''
Is considered pilot someone with a PPL?

Someone with a CPL and 200 hours on pistons?

It pretty much defines itself. PPL ? No...of course not.

In the context of this discussion, it means someone legally employable in an airline operation under the regulatory system in the country where they live.

Everything else is just ancillary details/factors. Can they be legally employed in an airline operation in the country in question ? That answers its own question as to what a "pilot" is.