Four dead in Austrian crash

[Tartiflette Fan]

Saturday November 25th around mid-day a small plane crashed on the Kasberg mountain, near Grünau iim Almtal (70 km E Salzburg ). Rescuers reached the plane in the afternoon and found all four occupants dead. No further details except that it is believed the flight started outside Austria.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bayern/luftverkehr-gruenau-im-almtal-vier-tote-bei-absturz-von-kleinflugzeug-in-oesterreich-dpa.urn-newsml-dpa-com-20090101-231125-99-74447

[DaveReidUK]

ASN reckons a German-registered Commander 112.

[lossiemouth]

Accident Rockwell Commander 112B D-ELPO, (aviation-safety.net) (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/348356)

to save you looking it up.

[ATC Watcher]

In one of the Austrian news articles mentioned by ASN ,someone says the flight was VFR , If correct , flying VFR in the Alps this week end with the current weather we experience was definitively a very bad idea.

[Teddy Robinson]

In one of the Austrian news articles mentioned by ASN ,someone says the flight was VFR , If correct , flying VFR in the Alps this week end with the current weather we experience was definitively a very bad idea.

I am located somewhat to the west of this accident site, but with a good view of the Alps.
The weather system that passed through here on Friday evening into the early hours of Saturday was pretty active, with strong W-SW gusts, reduced visibility, and snow showers.

Not a good time to be over the mountains at low level in a non de-iced airframe.

TR

[treadigraph]

Flight seems to begin from somewhere SW of Prague.

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=3d2348&lat=47.904&lon=13.961&zoom=9.3&showTrace=2023-11-25&leg=1&trackLabels

[what next]

Flight seems to begin from somewhere SW of Prague.

There are lenghty discussions about it in other aviation forums. The flight seems to have been some kind of private cost-sharing flight from Pribram (Czech) to Pula (Croatia) openly advertised in social media ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/cestovatelkska/posts/4710248329114412/ ) - can be translated by Google if necessary.

[treadigraph]

Oh dear...

[markkal]

I have been trained for the mountain rating in France at aeroclub Chambéry 15 years ago, and have been crossing the alps many times since. Nothwistanding I got caught one day......

Once the sky was blue and clear and it was in summer, But I did not pay attention to the few lenticular clouds aloft. Mortal danger,as I was going to experience, ferocious winds at altitude with updrafts, downdrafts and rotors, while down below it was a calm summer day..

Crossing from Annecy (France) to Aosta (Italy) along the small "St Bernard pass" via St. Gervais, Megève, Cormayeur, west of the Mont Blanc.
Around 9'500 feet QNH, with about 1000 ft separtion from the uneven ground below. with peaks all around which is standard route along the valley, unless one wants to cross east of the Mont Blanc at the same height, via the Grand St Bernard pass when departing from Switzerland on the east side of Leman lake.

I was in a Cap10 alone. As soon as I reached high terrain on my route to the east, I got shaken so much that I lost all control of the aircraft, nothing I could do but wait, going back was not an option I was committed; And it was like 25 minutes in a tumbler; I eventually landed in Aosta with my legs shaking so much I could barely control the rudder on final and taxiing, white as an aspirin, glad the aircraft was stressed to +6 -.4 G's and I had a 5 point harness-. Happy to be alive.

Lesson learned, never cross or overfly a mountainous ridge in a GA aircraft with winds aloft, do your homework, always check your weather, lenticulars may not be there to warn you...I should have known..

At the time of the accident of the Commander D-ELPO , west-southwesternly winds were blowing.all over western europe and lasted a few days,
The pilot must have had a hint that it was not totally safe, as reading from the Google translation in the link provided above, he added that he had an "autopilot" as if that could be of comfort to unaware passengers let alone the pilot. RIP,

[DogTailRed2]

The Alps has caught out a few experienced pilots. Neil Williams being one.

[treadigraph]

The Alps has caught out a few experienced pilots. Neil Williams being one.
It was the Sierra de Guadarrama north of Madrid that caught Williams out.

[Teddy Robinson]

Quite.
Having read the facebook pages and local media referred to in the later posts, one can only draw one rather disturbing conclusion.

[ATC Watcher]

If what is written on FB and in the Austrian newspapers is correct and he flew VFR and really took 3 paying pax with him ,then most probably lawsuits are coming. And the sad thing with that is that his family beside having lost a loved one will now be involved in trials and night lose their savings and even house in the end. We have a case currently dragging on in one of my flying clubs. People should also think about consequences for their families when they do things like this .

[Flyingmac]

The departure would take place on Saturday 25 November and the return on Sunday 26 November.
We will fly to the ancient city of Pula, which is located on the southern tip of the Istrian peninsula in Croatia. Along the way, we will see the Czech castles of Orlík and Hluboka nad Vltavou, as well as the Temelín power plant. In Austria it will be Linz and then we will climb over the Alps. We will see the Dachstein glacier or the Slovenian Mangart and the Triglav nature park. We will slowly descend, fly past Trieste in Italy and then through Koper, Izola and Portorož. During the landing, the ancient city of Pula and the world-famous amphitheater will be beautifully visible. We will stay in Pula and see the city. I feel at home in Croatia, so the program will be 🙂
Departing on Sunday afternoon, we will be refueling en route, so we will make a stopover either in Portorož or at Bled High Mountain Airport in the Slovenian Alps. There is a great restaurant at Bled airport, where we can treat ourselves to the famous mushroom soup.
Depart from Příbram and return there as well. Commander 112B aircraft, avionics for all-weather flights, autopilot. I will explain everything, participating in the flight is a must! 🙂 I can take a maximum of three passengers, the ticket per head is CZK 7,500 when the entire plane is occupied. In total, 2.5 hours in the air, I calculate that there will be a layover, as I wrote above, so each passenger will take a turn at the wheel.

[340drvr]

Also, the Commander 112, a fairly heavy airframe, with a Lycoming IO-360, doesn't exactly have an abundance of excess horsepower at sea level, and even more anemic at higher altitudes.
RIP.

[ATC Watcher]

Czk 7500 is roughly 300 euro, times 3 = 900 for a 2,5 h flight definitively goes beyond the EASA cost sharing ruling so it was a commercial flight, . hopefully the guy had a CPL otherwise one more lawsuit..

[JanetFlight]

Czk 7500 is roughly 300 euro, times 3 = 900 for a 2,5 h flight definitively goes beyond the EASA cost sharing ruling so it was a commercial flight, . hopefully the guy had a CPL otherwise one more lawsuit..

If it was a commercial flight or operation, he should had operated under an AOC wich i really doubt.

[discorules]

Czk 7500 is roughly 300 euro, times 3 = 900 for a 2,5 h flight definitively goes beyond the EASA cost sharing ruling so it was a commercial flight, . hopefully the guy had a CPL otherwise one more lawsuit..
Looking at the distance between Pribram in Czechia and Pula in Croatia, I would imagine that it would be around 2.5hrs each way for an a/c of that type, so a total of 5hrs, plus a planned stopover.

[lederhosen]

According to foreflight it’s just under 300 nautical miles from Pribram to Pula. If you include landing fees parking etc then cost sharing doesn’t seem implausible. On the other hand I was driving from Austria through the Czech republic by chance at around that time and whilst there was the odd patch of blue sky I would say VFR flight was very optimistic in the prevailing snow showers. Maybe he had an instrument rating but a flight in such wintery conditions would have been very challenging.

[markkal]

No way to cross the alps under the prevailing conditions of strong wind overcast clouds closing the valleys and freezing temperatures, It was a no go for any GA piston aircraft even in IFR. How did the pilot dare to plan such a flight I really cannot understand. The cost sharing requested was more than reasonable I doubt there will be a problem there.

[Discorde]

It was the Sierra de Guadarrama north of Madrid that caught Williams out.

I've often wondered whether Neil Williams was a victim of incapacitation of some sort - medical problem or CO poisoning. He was a very capable operator and in the view of some observers it's unlikely the accident was purely the result of incompetence or misjudgement.

Here are some of Neil's articles (https://www.steemrok.com/steemroknwlistv4.html) as published in Shell Aviation News.

[mryan75]

No way to cross the alps under the prevailing conditions of strong wind overcast clouds closing the valleys and freezing temperatures, It was a no go for any GA piston aircraft even in IFR. How did the pilot dare to plan such a flight I really cannot understand.
It’s easy to understand, someone was paying him to do it.

[markkal]

It’s easy to understand, someone was paying him to do it.

I was referring to the lack of common sense and judgement....As for the costs for a round trip such as this one, what he asked couvered at most the expenses....

[physicus]

20 years ago when I last flew GA aircraft in Europe, a basic IFR capable 4 seater aircraft would cost around 300 Euros per hour. For a 5h roundtrip, a 900 Euro cost contribution would therefore have been more than qualifying for running the flight under cost sharing. The advertisement on social media however would not have been ok. No idea if these rules have changed in any way since then.

[Mechta]

I've often wondered whether Neil Williams was a victim of incapacitation of some sort - medical problem or CO poisoning. He was a very capable operator and in the view of some observers it's unlikely the accident was purely the result of incompetence or misjudgement.

Here are some of Neil's articles (https://www.steemrok.com/steemroknwlistv4.html) as published in Shell Aviation News.

I was told by someone who was a friend of Neil's, that they had been requested (not by Neil) to lend an altimeter that was appropriate to the type so Neil could make the flight. The individual with the altimeter did not have confidence that it was serviceable and refused to lend it. Between that time and the time of the flight, the altimeter was stolen from their home. There was no suggestion that Neil was aware of this.
I've always wondered why an altimeter specific to the aircraft type would be necessary and why an alternative would have been at all difficult to source elsewhere.

[markkal]

20 years ago when I last flew GA aircraft in Europe, a basic IFR capable 4 seater aircraft would cost around 300 Euros per hour. For a 5h roundtrip, a 900 Euro cost contribution would therefore have been more than qualifying for running the flight under cost sharing. The advertisement on social media however would not have been ok. No idea if these rules have changed in any way since then.

Indeed 20 years ago, as for today consider that AVGAS alone is about 3 euros a liter that about 3,30 $ for a quart.....and prices have gone up steadily and skyrocketed after covid.

[DogTailRed2]

I've often wondered whether Neil Williams was a victim of incapacitation of some sort - medical problem or CO poisoning. He was a very capable operator and in the view of some observers it's unlikely the accident was purely the result of incompetence or misjudgement.

Here are some of Neil's articles (https://www.steemrok.com/steemroknwlistv4.html) as published in Shell Aviation News.
Many well respected pilots have `bought the farm`. Hoof Proudfoot, Norman Lees, Guy Bancroft-Smith, David Moore, Mark Hannah. A bad day in an airplane can be a very bad day.

[wiggy]

Many well respected pilots have `bought the farm`. Hoof Proudfoot, Norman Lees, Guy Bancroft-Smith, David Moore, Mark Hannah. A bad day in an airplane can be a very bad day.

Just a gentle nudge, no offence intended but don't you mean Guy Bancroft-Wilson...

[treadigraph]

I've always wondered why an altimeter specific to the aircraft type would be necessary and why an alternative would have been at all difficult to source elsewhere.
Neil's write up of ferrying Doug Arnold's first 2111 from Spain to Blackbushe refers (as I recall) to metric instrumentation, can't recall if that included the altimeter (I've never seen a metric altimeter - do they exist?) but if so perhaps he was keen to have something easier to read? The first ferry was in June '76, the crash was in December '77. He also ferried two across the Atlantic in the Autumn of '77. I must reread Airborne - away tomorrow night, I'll tuck it in my bag!

[UV]

I've never seen a metric altimeter - do they exist?
Yes, you often see them in gliders in Europe.

[India Four Two]

I've never seen a metric altimeter - do they exist?

Yes, they do. All the ones I’ve seen are like this, with Zero at the bottom and the big hand revolving once per 1000m. That alone must be confusing, never mind doing the mental arithmetic to convert to feet.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/295x284/img_8843_057ce3f33b7f46690cfe45be6719b781a5c09487.jpeg

[SWBKCB]

I was referring to the lack of common sense and judgement....As for the costs for a round trip such as this one, what he asked couvered at most the expenses....

So is this an example of the extra pressures that come from "selling" your flight to people you don't know? It might be technically a cost sharing flight, but that FB post (#14) reads like an advert to me

[treadigraph]

UV India Four Two Thanks!

[blind pew]

Actually flying a metric cockpit in a glider in the alps is far easier than a uk one.
The topos are more like hiking maps with the spot heights in metres; they are annotated with amongst other things the out landing fields again in metres and concentric 10km circles.
The asi is again in metres and the vario in metres per second.
Normal advice is to work with 50% of glide ratio..so 20.
Calculation works..height difference say 2000m x 20 = 40km autonomy.
120kph with 2M/S sink = 60 to 1 glide ratio.
An out landing not in a federation maintained field is often fatal so you make sure that you always have an option using the circles and a quick bit of mental calcs.

As to Neil I was instructing on Condors at Blackbushe in my spare time when he went in…consensus at the time was that he had got caught out by the WAT curve and intricacies of mountain flying not unlike Tante Ju in the Swiss alps a couple of years ago.

One needs luck at times.

PS we had to use tables to convert clearances in Metres to feet, FL into altitudes and M/S into knots flying in the gripper into Moscow in the 70s.
IIRC we received approach clearances in Metres standard which had to be converted to FT/ QNH and then FT/QFE whilst doing the change hands monitored approach plus writing everything down…happy days..

[ATC Watcher]

On cost sharing , the EASA definition is putting the emphasis on " Sharing " , but does not define the percentage, while in a 2 seater it is obvious , 50% each, for a 4 seater is it 75% of 50% ? in some aeroclubs using Wiggly , the rule it can't be more that 50% regardless of the number or pax sharing.

In regards to metric , most Continental European build GA aircraft have metric instrumentation , and all gliders are . so meters/seconds, Km/h and altitude in meters. The Gliders maps are in meters , and in the Alps all elevations in the maps are metric. Germany DFS publish all its VFR maps in both metric and feet versions., etc,

As to meter altimeters :All the ones I’ve seen are like this, with Zero at the bottom and the big hand revolving once per 1000m. That alone must be confusing, never mind doing the mental arithmetic to convert to feet
No most have the Zero on the top, , only Winter the German manufacturer has its metric altimeters with zero at the bottom ., and its feet altimeter's with zero on top , that is to differentiate them as motor gliders often have both (e.g the Stemme ) .
As to converting the head it just practice. I fly regularly various types of aircraft with 3 different instrumentations , a PA18 in MPH , a Robin DR400 in Km/h and a Breezer in Knots. Not really a problem.

[DogTailRed2]

Just a gentle nudge, no offence intended but don't you mean Guy Bancroft-Wilson...
Yes. Thanks for the correction. No offence intended.

[Prob30Tempo TSRA]

Many well respected pilots have `bought the farm`. Hoof Proudfoot, Norman Lees, Guy Bancroft-Smith, David Moore, Mark Hannah. A bad day in an airplane can be a very bad day.

I’m not sure airshow flying of warbirds is the same as a PPL trying to fly across mountains with some iffy cost sharing .

That online platform wingly always seems like a bad idea - I’m certain when there’s the inevitable crash the relatives will moan they thought it was an airline

[Dr Jekyll]

I’m not sure airshow flying of warbirds is the same as a PPL trying to fly across mountains with some iffy cost sharing .

That online platform wingly always seems like a bad idea - I’m certain when there’s the inevitable crash the relatives will moan they thought it was an airline

The comparison was with the Neil Williams accident and the suggestion incapacitation might explain it.

[treadigraph]

Neil's write up of ferrying Doug Arnold's first 2111 from Spain to Blackbushe refers (as I recall) to metric instrumentation,

Had a skim, can't seen any references to metric instrumentation, most of the problems seem to have been translating the Pilots' notes, even a Spanish aerobatic pilot who'd flown the 2111 years earlier had difficulty with them.

Must have been somebody else who had to figure out metric altimeters.