Generation CAE MPL easyJet

[bitcoin]

Looking for an update on the CAE MPL easyJet situation as a follow on - regarding the job prospect concerning the Covid issues.

Sort of a seperate thread to my modular pursuit - but I'm looking at Generation easyJet's MPL, and I've heard some bad experiences. From what I've heard, the letters of employment were revoked by easyJet and a hold pool was created months later. As far as I've been told the MPLs that stuck with EZY have been hired/about to be hired, but I want to know the situation now, if there are any current EZY MPL students or past MPL students that can advise me on the current situation? Are the MPL students advised on how long they have before starting with EZY at the tail of the training

Understand where I'm coming from because my parents prioritise job security with course price, and I don't want to have wasted £100k of my parent's money with a nearly useless license!

I've been looking at fATPL modular routes (see my other posts!) but I want something which "guarantees" (variable) employment before I commit to any payment.

p.s I did see a post mentioning rumor of EZY having "overhired" and they're in trouble, anyone got insight on this?

[Pilot.Mark]

I would tread very carefully. Current feedback is that CAE do not have the capacity to train the cadets that they have recruited and because of the delays the job vacancies originally allocated for MPL's have been recruited for externally and filled with white tails leaving question marks over where the MPL cadet's will go.

Here's a few extracts from the different threads:
- The originally advertised 18 month course is taking anywhere from 2.5-3 years
- Cadet's in Phoenix were returned to the UK after only several flights and informed of a six month delay
- Cadet's in ground school have all been informed of significant delays due to lack of aircraft/instructors
- 150 MPL allocated vacancies have been filled with white tails
- Treatment of cadet's is by CAE is very poor
- Recruitment for the course has continued as normal which means hundreds of cadets are in ground school with no availability for flight training on completion of ATPL's

No employment is guaranteed

[thebeast121]

avoid this route, atleast for now.
CAE having big delays and they messed up big time.
Students in ground school begging CAE for some communication abt the extent of the delay with only useless replys. ppl in phoenix being forcefully sent back home by invoking their visas.
wait few months before deciding to apply, not looking like a good option at the time being

[geardown1]

Looking for an update on the CAE MPL easyJet situation as a follow on - regarding the job prospect concerning the Covid issues.

Sort of a seperate thread to my modular pursuit - but I'm looking at Generation easyJet's MPL, and I've heard some bad experiences. From what I've heard, the letters of employment were revoked by easyJet and a hold pool was created months later. As far as I've been told the MPLs that stuck with EZY have been hired/about to be hired, but I want to know the situation now, if there are any current EZY MPL students or past MPL students that can advise me on the current situation? Are the MPL students advised on how long they have before starting with EZY at the tail of the training

Understand where I'm coming from because my parents prioritise job security with course price, and I don't want to have wasted £100k of my parent's money with a nearly useless license!

I've been looking at fATPL modular routes (see my other posts!) but I want something which "guarantees" (variable) employment before I commit to any payment.

p.s I did see a post mentioning rumor of EZY having "overhired" and they're in trouble, anyone got insight on this?

Apart from all the marketing nonsense, I doubt there's any course which actually guarantees a job at the end. Although the PR and cadets will make you think so! As far as I'm aware, there's a job interview at the end of your training to see wether you actually get the job. So, there's a path, but no promises. Unless that's all changed and i'm really out of touch. Just tread carefully and avoid MPL courses. Any downturn in the industry or your MPL airline going bust, then you're £100K down the drain and cannot even fly a mere Cessna 152 as you don't have a worthy licence. Monarch, Flybe, Thomas Cook, Aer Lingus (dropped MPLs during covid). History will repeat itself, just a matter of when!

[bitcoin]

I would tread very carefully. Current feedback is that CAE do not have the capacity to train the cadets that they have recruited and because of the delays the job vacancies originally allocated for MPL's have been recruited for externally and filled with white tails leaving question marks over where the MPL cadet's will go.

Here's a few extracts from the different threads:
- The originally advertised 18 month course is taking anywhere from 2.5-3 years
- Cadet's in Phoenix were returned to the UK after only several flights and informed of a six month delay
- Cadet's in ground school have all been informed of significant delays due to lack of aircraft/instructors
- 150 MPL allocated vacancies have been filled with white tails
- Treatment of cadet's is by CAE is very poor
- Recruitment for the course has continued as normal which means hundreds of cadets are in ground school with no availability for flight training on completion of ATPL's

No employment is guaranteed
Thank you, Pilot Mark and thebeast121. I suppose I'm a bit worried about job security. I'm also looking at Skyborne's Integrated (I know!), but this is why:

- They offer the BSc degree hence I can apply for 2 years of student finance. I don't wish to discuss precisely how much as it will potentially reveal my household income, but it is up to more than £40,000 (they state) a lot of people can apply for. It may also help with job prospects/airlines which stipulate a degree requirement to even apply.
- I've heard great things about Skyborne, the staff and quality of training especially. I've visited their training center in Gloucester and it was a very pleasant building.
- Most importantly: from what I've heard the placement in Skyborne is excellent and they have connections with airlines, such as their recent easyJet placements - as far as I know they're not currently hiring low hours outside of MPLs and such, so is it possible Skyborne have direct connections with airlines to place their graduates in? Not to mention the BA Whitetail scheme, but I am questioning how many trainees get into that scheme, so if anyone has any information about this, that would be great. This is rather vital for me, I don't want to be out of work for longer than 6 months having spent a lot of money and I think I would benefit from their graduate placement programme.
- I'm not sure going modular is the route for me, the main priority here is employment, and I have no support after I finish my modular training, as I said before I don't mind paying a little extra to get employment. I've heard Skyborne are very confident in placing their trainees into airlines.

[RichardH]

geardown1 - nothing has changed your summing up is exactly correct.

bitcoin - at the risk of me repeating myself yet again on this thread - THERE ARE NO GUARANTEED JOBS - Even if you are fortunate enough to find your have been accepted on to an airline 'sponsored' scheme the small print will read something like 'satisfactory performance' (which can mean anything - BA used to want 85% pass mark in all theory tests & exams) & will go on to state 'subject to demand'. Quite rightly no company/airline will guarantee you a job as you are an unknown risk despite all the tests & interviews. You are not really there until you pass your line check & some do get chopped along the way.

I was an ATPL theory instructor for over 20 years instructing both airline & self-sponsored students at the major schools. Let's say there were 18 on a course usually at least one got back coursed and about every three months at least one was chopped usually due to poor performance (ground or flying). One airline visiting once sat in a couple of classes with their potential cadets & weren't impressed with 2 cadets due to their arrogant attitude, they were chopped the next day.

Certainly known EZY & other students put into a holding pool sometime for months. I was at Oxford when 9/11 occurred instructing fully sponsored BA & Aer Lingus courses & within 48 hours two of these were cancelled, so much for guaranteed jobs. If your parents are looking for job security you are in the wrong business, remember Covid, Monarch & Flybe going bust twice. A friend of mine (recently retired from BA) when he started out (1980s) with a sponsorship from Bristow Helicopters was made redundant 5 times in 7 years before long term at British Midland then BA.

If you wish to enter this profession I wish you all the best but make sure you fully awake & aware of all the potential risks & don't fall for the glossy sales brochure which will promise lots but might fail to deliver.

[bitcoin]

Richard,
Thank you (and everyone else!) in this thread for your insight. Your expertise on the field is much appreciated. I'm extremely relieved to have my suspicions confirmed and I'm leaning towards Skyborne's Integrated course for the reasons stated in my other posts as opposed to a modular route - I don't think that post has quite got through yet at the time of posting this.

If you've watched the short discussion at Pilot Career's live on YT ( I don't think I can post links here!) with two EZY cadets it's rather misleading.

I'll try to get into BA's Whitetail tagged programme - I'll have to start working hard during those 6 months!

[RichardH]

Pleased to help bitcoin.

Only promising or successful cadets/students will be selected by their ATO to attend any Pilot Careers show (read sales pitch).
Can't think of any of the other regular & experienced posters on here would recommend integrated - modular is definitely the least risk option. Though I concede I haven't yet read your other post.

The main reason ATOs push integrated is that the profit margins are much greater (not for your benefit).

[bitcoin]

Thanks Richard.

The post has now gone through, if you want to take a look at my thought process for integrated (I know I'm going against the grain here in this forum, but I hope how I explain it establishes some rationale behind my interest).
Might I add:
- Going for modular in this current climate, we'll say it costs £50k-60k excl. TR if airline wants you to pay for it.
Most modular plans include distance learning reducing the price by about 3-4k, which, despite my motivation for my dreams I just cannot facilitate.

- Going integrated with a BSc degree and receiving student finance rather than a modular route is not a huge difference. Student finance, if I'm not mistaken, is mandatory to be paid back once I start making income and above a certain threshold. I think I would also need some support post-training for placement.
- Finally, it might sound a bit ridiculous, but potentially being one of the younger trainees to start I'd like familiarise and build relationship with other fellow trainees. If I went down the modular route, there wouldn't be long to get to know some of my colleagues.
(I don't really have many friends interested in aviation and serious in this career)

[AlwaysWondering]

It seems that you have already made your mind up to start on this scheme.
Seriously, put some proper thought into the advice given on this forum.

What others have posted is very true.
- The MPL is the worst form of training as it has by far the highest risk. The reason it is popular is the profit margins are higher.
- It seems you have financial restrictions. Modular can be a hell of a lot cheaper than the easyjet MPL. It'll probably cost £50k more than modular when you add accommodation/ incidentals. Plus that £40k of loans/ grants is a long way off the around £100k you'll need. Then surely you'll add £30k onto the cost of the course so the loan doesn't make that much of a difference?
- What's the other purpose of a degree in aviation? It won't be of much use if the whole industry collapses.
- Nothing in life is guaranteed. The course. The job. Who knows what's around the corner?
- You can do modular ATPL exam courses full-time in the classroom too.
- A lot of the big ATOs are really struggling with training delays at the moment. Especially at the ME and IR stages of training. CAE appears to be among those ATOs and I doubt the backlog will be any better. Modular allows you to pick and choose carefully after each stage. Integrated doesn't.

[rudestuff]

Pilots don't need degrees. A degree in the UK is a 3 year plan which will need to be paid for in addition to flight training.

My 3 year plan (from scratch) would be:
1 Get a ground based airline job. Ideally in the office, close to HR and flight ops for obvious reasons.
2 Get a weekend job, preferably something which gives time to study.
3 Live with parents or as cheaply as possible.
4 Build 3 years of good credit
5 Use holiday to get PPL in year 1, CBIR in year 2 and borrow 20k unsecured for ME+CPL in year 3

I would now have a fATPL, a work ethic, minimal debt of ~£300pm and an airline job with, at best, access to the people who hire pilots and at the very least an airline name on my CV.

[RichardH]

bitcoin

I implore you to listen to rudestuff's (& others) excellent advice/plan. I have known several students who have gone down this or a similar route.

As you say networking is important but you will get a more valuable network by working on the ground within an airline or airport rather than with other students (your competitors) in addition to a proven work track record. During your journey you will get to meet lots of like-minded people over time. I fully understand the motivation issue regarding ATPL ground school via DL but you can attend a full-time course you just need to budget/plan for 8 months off work. (It's what I did under a different system but with years of IT experience & cash in bank).

Degrees unless you want to be an aeronautical engineer are a waste of time, better off doing a plumbing, electrician or gas engineer apprenticeship ALWAYS demand here!

[bitcoin]

Thank you all,

Let's throw the EZY route out of the question, since it doesn't look like a good one.

Rudestuff - I know you're suggesting to spread my training over three years, but I simply don't have 3 years for that. I understand you can get modular fATPL in less time than an integrated one, and I'm currently exploring possibilities.

I say the price difference isn't too big but I think, by saying that, I gave off on impression that we're severely limited by budget - my parents don't mind paying some extra to get support post-training. My number one concern now is employment after training. We've already established there's no "guaranteed jobs" in this industry but I'd like to give myself the best shot. Does anyone know whether these ATOs such as Skyborne have direct employment connections to airlines? We've seen graduates (see Skyborne's instagram) get into EZY 5 days after completion of training, but AFAIK they don't hire low hours/ newly qualified unless from their saturated MPL scheme and other similar routes. I understand 5 days is very rare and can take around 6 months (or more).

I also suspect that having the degree can potentially help your job prospects (correct me if I'm wrong).

My plan currently is to finish training (whether we decide modular or integrated, then get myself to Uni on the next intake and apply to airlines during Uni).
If Modular:
The degree is integrated in the course and costs £6,000 to add on and should be completed more or less during the 18 months, and gives me something to fall back on if I fail a medical.
If I was to go modular I'd like to complete it in one year (is that possible!?) so I can go to Uni with perhaps a deferred entry from next year's entrance.

I did some research and took rudestuff's advice for the best order to do these courses (just to link the other thread I made) for a modular plan and this is what I came up with, if you haven't seem my other thread already.:

I haven't applied for any course yet so I'm under no pressure to make the right decision.
- Doing a PPL (It currently costs £170 locally p/h)
- For the flight hours alone, I'll assume it takes around 50 hours. 50 hours * 170 /hr = £8500
- The theory exams costs £30 per exam, with 9 exams that's £270 for the exams
- I don't have prices for examiner, I'll edit this when they get back to me.
PPL: £8770 + examiner fees, Duration: 1 month, Flight hours: 50
Ground School
- I cannot do distance learning I'm afraid.
- Cost: £5900
Cost: £5900, Duration: 6 months
MEP:
- 6 hour instruction time, £3400 for instructor time
- Theory exam: £30 + 2-3 hours of examiner time: £30 + £1650: £1680
MEP: £5080, Duration: 1 week, Flight hours: 9
CBIR (ME):
- £12,800 quoted
- £150 license issue fee + £40 theory test + £1000 Skill test + £650 landing fees
- Accomodation £1680
CBIR: £14,490, Duration: 6-8 weeks, Flight hours: 15
UPRT:
- £1700 for course
- Accomodation: £150
UPRT: £1850, Duration: 1 week, Flight hours: 3

Hour building:
- I'll need approximately 100 hours to reach the 175 hour minimum to start CPL
- Potentially I could do this in the US, I've seen on forums here that it can be cheaper due to the better weather.
- Found a site which hires for $120/hour
- Total cost for building $120 x 100 hours = $12,000 (at time of writing approximately £9,600)
- Excl license conversion etc for US
Hour building, Cost: £9,600 Duration: (I'm not sure how many hours I can fly per day, I'll say 2 months?)
CPL:
- £7500 for the sim time, and instruction
- Accomodation is £850
CPL: £8350, Duration: 1 month
MCC:
- £6,000 for the course
MCC: £6,000, Duration: 3 weeks
Total Cost: £54,040, Duration: under a year hopefully, plus some examiner fees, CRP5, protractor, headset. MEP and CBIR pre-CPL to save a bit of money building hours.

[Arena_33]

You could probably complete that in 15-18 months if you get very lucky weather wise and you can start courses one after the next without any waiting around for availability (and of course that you pass everything first time). No chance it could be done in 12 months...

Why the big rush?

[bitcoin]

I'd like to get a degree ideally, Unis entry is anually so I'd need to catch that deadline

[RichardH]

Arena 33 is correct regarding POSSIBLE time but "Why the big rush" a good question unless you are 40 plus. As you say getting the job at the end is the key but remember this is all down to the laws of supply & demand. CURRENTLY some exceptional students might be lucky to get an offer within a few days though this is very rare, more like months, occasionally years & for some NEVER.

The major ATOs usually have some job & career assistance links but this tends to be very informal, they are certainly not a pilot recruitment agency so don't hold your breath. In my view these links are over sold. In reality when the airlines are looking to recruit low-hour pilots they will approach the ATOs to see if they have any suitable candidates based on ground school, flying & MCC reports. In my experience this open to both integrated & modular students though most find jobs from their own efforts unless already 'sponsored' or 'tagged'.

Thoughts on degrees already made crystal clear. Does your budget for F/T ground school include accommodation & exam fees?

[bitcoin]

Thank you guys.
I'm going to present my findings from you guys to my parents and see what they think. Honestly they were dead set on paying for integrated but I can sit down with them.

Rather a separate question not related to integrated vs modular, but for the 5 integrated schools:
While flying is a vocational course, do you guys know the sort of transition from A Level workload to Ground School workload? I've heard it's not rather the technicality of the content but the sheer volume of it. I think of myself as academically sound, and have the ace of predicted grades for A Levels. Does A Level results have some direct correlation with ground school results?

Reason I'm asking is because I'm keen to get onto the BA Whitetail scheme if I was to go integrated. I suppose it's subjective, but if I could just ask, how many people achieve an average of 85% or above?

First thing's first, I'm going to go ahead and book a trial flight.

[geardown1]

Some really excellent advice in the threads above, absorb all the info. No rush, unless you're older than 40. Aviation degree is basically useless to be brutally blunt. Many get an aviation degree as a 'back up plan, or fallback' but if the pilot market is in turmoil, then bet your bottom dollar that every single affiliated aviation job is also in turmoil! A pilot or aviation degree soon becomes useless if every part of the industry is suffering. Genuinely more sensible becoming a sparky! Also, if getting a degree adds more money to the final bill, then it's just more debt to pay at the end of the day.

ATPL ground school is comparable to a 4 year uni degree getting crammed into 8 months or less. You don't *need* to be academically smart to get through ground school. Sure, it'll help! But as you've mentioned, it's the volume of info thats difficult, not necessarily the content (especially as you're actually interested in learning the subject, as apposed to being forced to learn pythagorus in school!).

I have no stats, but 85% plus in EVERY subject could actually be a tough ask. Probably many do get that these days with the help of the various ATPL question banks which assist candidates along the way.

Last note from me as an ex base capt involved in recruiting, sometimes the grades and where you train are the least interesting part of a candidate. We wanted to know if a pilot could put up with sitting beside someone in a tube for hours on end and have a good day out. Could've paid the most money in the UK for a licence and went to the apparent best school but if you have no personality and are socially awkward then that will be of concern.

[bitcoin]

Cannot thank you all enough

I'm keen on nailing the ATPL exams as you've gathered. Is there a way on viewing a version of an (UK) ATPL syllabus? I know some schools study different syllabuses, but I'd like to get a head start and really smash these exams as I've got some free time.

[geardown1]

Have you started any training at all yet? If not, don't run before you can walk! Your PPL exams will warm you up nicely to get stuck in to the ATPLs. So, perhaps start watching some online youtube videos on PPL theory or pick up some PPL theory books to get yourself pointing in the right direction. Also, more important than anything, if you haven't got a class one medical from the UK CAA yet, then do that ABSOLUTELY before you spend a penny on anything else. No point spending a few grand and then realising you can't get a class one and thus never ever be a commercial pilot. Class one medical first. Will cost around £700 for an initial medical then £2-300 per year there after.

[RichardH]

As a former ATPL theory instructor let me clarify the EASA ATPL exams.

1. The level is probably more like old "O" level standard - ask your parents.
2. You do not need to be academic but being able to do maths (sometimes mentally) is a must. Can you transpose & cross-multiply basic formula (distance speed time) and know some basic physics gas laws?
3. All schools study the same EASA syllabus but to mis-quote Eric Morecambe not necessarily in the same order (13 exams these days usually spread over 3 modules).
4. You need to think of them as an entrance exam to becoming a commercial pilot, it's a hoop you have to jump through.
5. In my & many other instructors views some of the syllabus is a farce most of which you will never use again. Why a pilot needs to know the constant of the cone of a Lamberts chart is my favourite useless bit of information.
6. It is the volume of high-class rubbish you have to learn in the time (8 months) that is the killer.
7. You shall have to put your social life on hold for the period as you will need 110% motivation & focus with no distractions.
8. Most students will spend another 3 hours+ study in the evening after the normal 6 hour school day.
9. Even with the best ground school tuition you are unlikely to pass the exams without the aid of question banks (QBs).
10. Why QBs - unfortunately the standard of the questions leaves a lot to be desired, the wording & meaning then the possible 2 correct answers but 1 is better than the other.
11. Certainly with the aid of QBs it is perfectly possible to average 85% across all subjects. Instructed several courses where the lowest average was in excess of 90% across.

I shouldn't concern yourself in what the ATPL syllabus is that's the schools problem. As suggested get a class 1 medical along with some PPL flying lessons & start your PPL theory.

If your parents are hell bent on sending you integrated ask them this :-
Most integrated ATOs require significant payments before you even start the course, the ground school would come first & even with accommodation & equipment would cost around £12k. Why do they want more of your money when they don't yet need it? If you still insist on this approach pay with a CREDIT card (not debit).

One last thought what does CAA stand for - Cash Again & Again.

If needed you can PM me.

[rudestuff]

They offer the BSc degree hence I can apply for 2 years of student finance. So you want a degree..?

Rudestuff - I know you're suggesting to spread my training over three years, but I simply don't have 3 years for that. So you don't want a degree..?

I'd like to get a degree ideally, Unis entry is anually so I'd need to catch that deadline And now I'm confused.

[rudestuff]

Doing a PPL (It currently costs £170 locally p/h)
- For the flight hours alone, I'll assume it takes around 50 hours. 50 hours * 170 /hr = £8500
- The theory exams costs £30 per exam, with 9 exams that's £270 for the exams
- I don't have prices for examiner, I'll edit this when they get back to me.
PPL: £8770 + examiner fees, Duration: 1 month, Flight hours: 50
Ground School
- I cannot do distance learning I'm afraid.
- Cost: £5900
Cost: £5900, Duration: 6 months
MEP:
- 6 hour instruction time, £3400 for instructor time
- Theory exam: £30 + 2-3 hours of examiner time: £30 + £1650: £1680
MEP: £5080, Duration: 1 week, Flight hours: 9
CBIR (ME):
- £12,800 quoted
- £150 license issue fee + £40 theory test + £1000 Skill test + £650 landing fees
- Accomodation £1680
CBIR: £14,490, Duration: 6-8 weeks, Flight hours: 15
UPRT:
- £1700 for course
- Accomodation: £150
UPRT: £1850, Duration: 1 week, Flight hours: 3

Hour building:
- I'll need approximately 100 hours to reach the 175 hour minimum to start CPL
- Potentially I could do this in the US, I've seen on forums here that it can be cheaper due to the better weather.
- Found a site which hires for $120/hour
- Total cost for building $120 x 100 hours = $12,000 (at time of writing approximately £9,600)
- Excl license conversion etc for US
Hour building, Cost: £9,600 Duration: (I'm not sure how many hours I can fly per day, I'll say 2 months?)
CPL:
- £7500 for the sim time, and instruction
- Accomodation is £850
CPL: £8350, Duration: 1 month
MCC:
- £6,000 for the course
MCC: £6,000, Duration: 3 weeks
Total Cost: £54,040, Duration: under a year hopefully, plus some examiner fees, CRP5, protractor, headset. MEP and CBIR pre-CPL to save a bit of money building hours.1) A 1 month PPL isn't feasible in the UK - due to weather. Triple that if you're lucky. Get an FAA private if you want to do it quickly.
2) You cannot do MEP directly after PPL, you'll need at least 70 hours PIC
3) The whole point of CBIR is to do it single engine to save money.
4) Your hour building will need to be spilt into at least 3 blocks between modules
5) A single engine CPL should be half what you're quoted.
A good first effort but that's nowhere near optimum. Which is strange because I'm pretty sure I told you in post #2 of your other thread where to look!

[Duca]

I would tread very carefully. Current feedback is that CAE do not have the capacity to train the cadets that they have recruited and because of the delays the job vacancies originally allocated for MPL's have been recruited for externally and filled with white tails leaving question marks over where the MPL cadet's will go.

Here's a few extracts from the different threads:
- The originally advertised 18 month course is taking anywhere from 2.5-3 years
- Cadet's in Phoenix were returned to the UK after only several flights and informed of a six month delay
- Cadet's in ground school have all been informed of significant delays due to lack of aircraft/instructors
- 150 MPL allocated vacancies have been filled with white tails
- Treatment of cadet's is by CAE is very poor
- Recruitment for the course has continued as normal which means hundreds of cadets are in ground school with no availability for flight training on completion of ATPL's

No employment is guaranteed
The Training service agreement states precise dates for EasyJet induction and if there’s any delay the student will get a partial refund based on how long the delay was…

[MikeKilo2]

The Training service agreement states precise dates for EasyJet induction and if there’s any delay the student will get a partial refund based on how long the delay was…

It means nothing. The contracts would have stated similar in 2020 when they outright revoked the conditional offer of employment for hundreds of cadets in the pandemic.

The airline will need the numbers whether the training providers can deliver tagged students or not. There’s no ‘MPL’ space waiting for you, it’s merely a training pipeline that the ATO is delivering that should satisfy a considerable number of their requirement, and if it can’t, they’ll look elsewhere. I doubt the airlines would be too concerned.

Be wary with the MPL that only allows you to fly for one operator. You get nothing to show on your license until the base training is completed. Many people learnt that the hard way only a couple years ago.

[Duca]

It means nothing. The contracts would have stated similar in 2020 when they outright revoked the conditional offer of employment for hundreds of cadets in the pandemic.

The airline will need the numbers whether the training providers can deliver tagged students or not. There’s no ‘MPL’ space waiting for you, it’s merely a training pipeline that the ATO is delivering that should satisfy a considerable number of their requirement, and if it can’t, they’ll look elsewhere. I doubt the airlines would be too concerned.

Be wary with the MPL that only allows you to fly for one operator. You get nothing to show on your license until the base training is completed. Many people learnt that the hard way only a couple years ago.
I agree with you, at least if the offer will be revoked the student will get a refund.

[Arena_33]

I agree with you, at least if the offer will be revoked the student will get a refund.

Pretty sure that didn't happen when offers were revoked and instead they were charged a huge sum for an ATPL conversion if they wanted any of the money they'd previously spent to actually mean anything

[thebeast121]

Guys, I want to add something, the easyJet MPL is a great program and the easyJet team is always looking behind us and they are fantastic and as we all know in 2020 the pilots who continued with the MPL course was the best and cheapest decision for them as all the people that switched to ATPL paid a bigger sum just at the end to be rehired by easyJet. The problem here is CAE, as they are not able to deliver the program for the students thus the students and easyJet being the ones suffering the consequences of CAE incompetences. If easyJet opens the MPL with another ATO that is able to deliver the program it would be the best program in EU. The problem here is not easyJet or the MPL its CAE either MPL or ATPL stufents license not being able to train them as they took a big number of students without research to see if they have the capabilities to train us and deliver us to easyjet. and delays with no or minimal compensation.

[Duca]

Pretty sure that didn't happen when offers were revoked and instead they were charged a huge sum for an ATPL conversion if they wanted any of the money they'd previously spent to actually mean anything
it’s written in the contract. Even if you don’t reach their requirements during the course and they resign your contract they have to refund you.

[MikeKilo2]

Guys, I want to add something, the easyJet MPL is a great program and the easyJet team is always looking behind us and they are fantastic and as we all know in 2020 the pilots who continued with the MPL course was the best and cheapest decision for them as all the people that switched to ATPL paid a bigger sum just at the end to be rehired by easyJet. The problem here is CAE, as they are not able to deliver the program for the students thus the students and easyJet being the ones suffering the consequences of CAE incompetences. If easyJet opens the MPL with another ATO that is able to deliver the program it would be the best program in EU. The problem here is not easyJet or the MPL its CAE either MPL or ATPL stufents license not being able to train them as they took a big number of students without research to see if they have the capabilities to train us and deliver us to easyjet. and delays with no or minimal compensation.

No, they are not looking out for you. If they were then why did they let all of the cadets go in 2020 without any initial opportunity of a hold pool? Yes those that took a gamble and opted for a whitetail MPL got employed after things began to recover. Not sure how you think that’s the best decision in a pandemic when you need an airline to provide base training to even have anything written on your license?

Some lost money or worse had nothing to show for it after already spending large amounts and weren’t re-approached for a job.

If I remember correctly Cityflyer told their cadets to finish getting a license (no matter which school) MPL or ATPL, and when the time comes, they will be offered employment, they just couldn’t put a date on it. A very fair and reasonable solution given this situation back then.

The program gives you a conditional job offer. Emphasis on conditional, and nothing more. It can be taken away. Please don’t solely listen to ATO sales teams telling you what you want to hear

[thebeast121]

No, they are not looking out for you. If they were then why did they let all of the cadets go in 2020 without any initial opportunity of a hold pool? Yes those that took a gamble and opted for a whitetail MPL got employed after things began to recover. Not sure how you think that’s the best decision in a pandemic when you need an airline to provide base training to even have anything written on your license?

Some lost money or worse had nothing to show for it after already spending large amounts and weren’t re-approached for a job.

If I remember correctly Cityflyer told their cadets to finish getting a license (no matter which school) MPL or ATPL, and when the time comes, they will be offered employment, they just couldn’t put a date on it. A very fair and reasonable solution given this situation back then.

The program gives you a conditional job offer. Emphasis on conditional, and nothing more. It can be taken away. Please don’t solely listen to ATO sales teams telling you what you want to hear
I think you forgot that even ATPL students suffered like the MPL it was not a matter of license it was a matter of no job opportunities anyway no matter what the license is. If you switched to ATPL back in 2020 you would have paid 50K more for absolutely nothing.
I agree that the job offer is CONDITIONAL, but give me one person who graduated the EZY MPL course with an acceptable training record and is now not employed by easyJet.

[Duca]

No, they are not looking out for you. If they were then why did they let all of the cadets go in 2020 without any initial opportunity of a hold pool? Yes those that took a gamble and opted for a whitetail MPL got employed after things began to recover. Not sure how you think that’s the best decision in a pandemic when you need an airline to provide base training to even have anything written on your license?

Some lost money or worse had nothing to show for it after already spending large amounts and weren’t re-approached for a job.

If I remember correctly Cityflyer told their cadets to finish getting a license (no matter which school) MPL or ATPL, and when the time comes, they will be offered employment, they just couldn’t put a date on it. A very fair and reasonable solution given this situation back then.

The program gives you a conditional job offer. Emphasis on conditional, and nothing more. It can be taken away. Please don’t solely listen to ATO sales teams telling you what you want to hear
It was the first a pandemic hit the market like that, so the fact that the situation was not managed in the best way possible is understandable.

[MikeKilo2]

I think you forgot that even ATPL students suffered like the MPL it was not a matter of license it was a matter of no job opportunities anyway no matter what the license is. If you switched to ATPL back in 2020 you would have paid 50K more for absolutely nothing.
I agree that the job offer is CONDITIONAL, but give me one person who graduated the EZY MPL course with an acceptable training record and is now not employed by easyJet.

I understand that everyone in the industry faced the issue of no employment opportunities. But with an ATPL you would be employable when the market recovers. No other airline would accept a zero hours MPL holder tied to a different operator. That is why students had little option but to switch to an ATPL when in possession of a letter revoking their job offer with no initial opportunity of a hold pool.

Some MPL students approached other A320 operators asking if employment was an option when things recovered and they were swiftly turned away. So it was far more limiting..

Yes, those that continued the program as whitetail are hopefully all at the airline. But many who had to take the decision to switch were not able to afford the astronomical fees that were asked for by multiple schools.

It absolutely would not have been “a wasted 50k” if you’re faced in a situation where your license (or lack of as you have no base training provider!) is unrecognised by other airlines. Continuing whitetail MPL, which wasn’t even a recognised term by the licensing authority pre-covid, was a financial gamble that one airline would survive the pandemic and recover to an extent where they recontacted those cadets that were dropped.

[Duca]

I understand that everyone in the industry faced the issue of no employment opportunities. But with an ATPL you would be employable when the market recovers. No other airline would accept a zero hours MPL holder tied to a different operator. That is why students had little option but to switch to an ATPL when in possession of a letter revoking their job offer with no initial opportunity of a hold pool.

Some MPL students approached other A320 operators asking if employment was an option when things recovered and they were swiftly turned away. So it was far more limiting..

Yes, those that continued the program as whitetail are hopefully all at the airline. But many who had to take the decision to switch were not able to afford the astronomical fees that were asked for by multiple schools.

It absolutely would not have been “a wasted 50k” if you’re faced in a situation where your license (or lack of as you have no base training provider!) is unrecognised by other airlines. Continuing whitetail MPL, which wasn’t even a recognised term by the licensing authority pre-covid, was a financial gamble that one airline would survive the pandemic and recover to an extent where they recontacted those cadets that were dropped.
However not everyone company is the same. Turning down an offer from EZY is a big gamble in my opinion. And so far everyone who has completed the course is now employed with Easyjet…

[43102]

Looking for an update on the CAE MPL easyJet situation as a follow on - regarding the job prospect concerning the Covid issues.

Sort of a seperate thread to my modular pursuit - but I'm looking at Generation easyJet's MPL, and I've heard some bad experiences. From what I've heard, the letters of employment were revoked by easyJet and a hold pool was created months later. As far as I've been told the MPLs that stuck with EZY have been hired/about to be hired, but I want to know the situation now, if there are any current EZY MPL students or past MPL students that can advise me on the current situation? Are the MPL students advised on how long they have before starting with EZY at the tail of the training

Understand where I'm coming from because my parents prioritise job security with course price, and I don't want to have wasted £100k of my parent's money with a nearly useless license!

I've been looking at fATPL modular routes (see my other posts!) but I want something which "guarantees" (variable) employment before I commit to any payment.

p.s I did see a post mentioning rumor of EZY having "overhired" and they're in trouble, anyone got insight on this?


Just a few things:

- The conditional letters of employment have not been revoked by easyJet.
- A 'hold pool' was created in Phoenix, whereby all cadets they can't deal with immediately were sent home, to return at a later date.
- CAE have been taking on too many cadets. Having realised this they've prioritised MPL cadets over whitetails in Phoenix.
- easyJet have had to look elsewhere for their pilot recruitment, which is unlikely to affect current MPL cadets but it may have an impact on future classes if they decide they don't need them all.

[Duca]

Just a few things:

- The conditional letters of employment have not been revoked by easyJet.
- A 'hold pool' was created in Phoenix, whereby all cadets they can't deal with immediately were sent home, to return at a later date.
- CAE have been taking on too many cadets. Having realised this they've prioritised MPL cadets over whitetails in Phoenix.
- easyJet have had to look elsewhere for their pilot recruitment, which is unlikely to affect current MPL cadets but it may have an impact on future classes if they decide they don't need them all.
I’m about to start the course in Feb. I wrote a letter to te recruitment department and they told me that students who have been offered a spot will be hired as the conditions of the letter of employment states. Btw he even told me that he’s not going to tell me how this situation will affect future intakes in the course.

[ManFlex40]

Thank you guys.
I'm going to present my findings from you guys to my parents and see what they think. Honestly they were dead set on paying for integrated but I can sit down with them.

Rather a separate question not related to integrated vs modular, but for the 5 integrated schools:
While flying is a vocational course, do you guys know the sort of transition from A Level workload to Ground School workload? I've heard it's not rather the technicality of the content but the sheer volume of it. I think of myself as academically sound, and have the ace of predicted grades for A Levels. Does A Level results have some direct correlation with ground school results?

Reason I'm asking is because I'm keen to get onto the BA Whitetail scheme if I was to go integrated. I suppose it's subjective, but if I could just ask, how many people achieve an average of 85% or above?

First thing's first, I'm going to go ahead and book a trial flight.

What makes you think that going integrated is the route to the whitetail route? Me and a fellow modular candidate are in the penultimate stage of selection through a Gloucestershire based ATO, and a fellow modular candidate is 1 of 6 recently tagged.

Save yourself some money, get a PPL and hour building as cheap as you can find it, then go modular with a well known ATO with good airline links :)

[Pilot.Mark]

Given the significant financial investment of the course, whether you chose to pursue it or not, I believe you need facts to make an informed decision. Beware of the below.

I agree with you, at least if the offer will be revoked the student will get a refund.

This is not true. Students are liable for their training costs regardless of an offer or not in accordance with the contract. There is no refunds.

it’s written in the contract. Even if you don’t reach their requirements during the course and they resign your contract they have to refund you.

This is note true. You are liable for all costs up to the point of termination and as you pay in advance, you will lose the money for the entire phase even if you fail on day 1. There is no refunds.

I’m about to start the course in Feb. I wrote a letter to te recruitment department and they told me that students who have been offered a spot will be hired as the conditions of the letter of employment states. Btw he even told me that he’s not going to tell me how this situation will affect future intakes in the course.

I suggest you read and re-read your contract.

I've no problem with you gambling your money, but please don't gamble other people's with misinformation.

[Duca]

Given the significant financial investment of the course, whether you chose to pursue it or not, I believe you need facts to make an informed decision. Beware of the below.



This is not true. Stop spreading mis-information. Absolutely nowhere is this stated. Students are liable for their training costs regardless of an offer or not in accordance with the contract. There is no refunds.



This is note true. You are liable for all costs up to the point of termination and as you pay in advance, you will lose the money for the entire phase even if you fail on day 1. There is no refunds.



I suggest you read and re-read your contract. I'm absolutely astounded you've come on this thread and spread the level of misinformation you have.

No doubt you're sourcing the funds from bank of Mum and Dad given the level of naviety. I've no problem with you gambling your parents money, but don't gamble other people's.
unfortunately I can’t post a screenshot of the contract since it’s confidential.

[Pilot.Mark]

unfortunately I can’t post a screenshot of the contract since it’s confidential.

No need to send screenshots, I am familiar with the contract having signed it myself

[Duca]

No need to send screenshots, I am familiar with the contract having signed it myself That’s why you are acting butt hurted…

[Duca]

He's quite clearly trying to inform you and any others that may be as naive as you are. Lets hope you don't have to experience any tough lessons about aviation by enrolling on the MPL... (that many others did, who also had the wool pulled over their eyes)
It’s all written in the Section 4 ANNEX A of the TSA. It states that the student will get a refund if they’re lacking aptitude. You won’t get a refund if you exceed certain conditions (stated in the contract) or if the student is lacking efforts.

[RichardH]

You won't like this Duca I was an instructor at one of the first ATOs to introduce so called training protection/guarantees back in 2000. It's like most insurance policies full of get-out clauses to avoid paying out. Who gets to decide aptitude or effort a very fine line & you won't be making the decision. In all my time (over 20 years) at a couple of the major ATOs I can count on one hand the number of refunds given. It looks good on paper but different in reality as any student who appears to be a potential problem normally gets warned that their 'protection' will be revoked if they fail to reach certain standards, this was much more common than refunds.

[Duca]

You won't like this Duca I was an instructor at one of the first ATOs to introduce so called training protection/guarantees back in 2000. It's like most insurance policies full of get-out clauses to avoid paying out. Who gets to decide aptitude or effort a very fine line & you won't be making the decision. In all my time (over 20 years) at a couple of the major ATOs I can count on one hand the number of refunds given. It looks good on paper but different in reality as any student who appears to be a potential problem normally gets warned that their 'protection' will be revoked if they fail to reach certain standards, this was much more common than refunds.I’ll ask further details about the method to evaluate the lack of aptitude or effort. However I didn’t understand what you meant with protection revocation.

[RichardH]

Simple - you no longer have any refund protection in place.

[Duca]

Simple - you no longer have any refund protection in place.
I don’t know how it could happen. It’s written that First officer insurance is included in the contract and it doesn’t state about the possibility of revoking the insurance.

[RichardH]

I don’t know how it could happen.

I can assure you it has happened, I suspect somewhere hidden in it will mention minimum performance requirements. Think about it for a minute no company is going to put itself at risk of a major financial loss because somebody isn't up to standard and all the aptitude tests in the world won't necessarily show that until they start. On a course of say 18 there used to be at least 1 or 2 students I often wondered how they ever passed 'selection', usually they failed several progress tests/exams before being re-coursed it is here that the 'protection' would be cancelled and they proceeded at their own financial risk.

Referring to your previous posts you need to make your mind up as to who to trust, somebody selling you an expensive dream or several pilots/instructors with years of real-world experience offering free advice.

[Duca]

On a course of say 18 there used to be at least 1 or 2 students I often wondered how they ever passed 'selection', usually they failed several progress tests/exams before being re-coursed it is here that the 'protection' would be cancelled and they proceeded at their own financial risk.

What made you wonder how they have been able to pass the selection? In your experience what do you think are major indicators of a student who won’t make it?

[RichardH]

In your experience what do you think are major indicators of a student who won’t make it?

1. They were obvious in the first week of ground school.
2. Always behind the course/class speed.
3. Didn't take very good notes (girls are always best at note taking) or were generally badly organised.
4. Even after several times explaining a topic in different ways (even with another instructor) still didn't get it.
5. Poor at maths, shouldn't need a calculator to work out 10% of 200. That's what the aptitude tests are supposed to sort out.
6. When several instructors covering the different subjects all noticed the same thing was real cause for concern.
7. Had the rabbit caught in the car headlight look.
8. Failed to put in the 110% effort & commitment required (including evening work).
9. Occasionally they failed to connect socially with other course students. Your course mates will often help each other out & also a key skill for later.
10. Didn't ask for extra assistance soon enough or failed to listen to advice.
11. Difficulty in being away from home for the first time.
12. Very occasionally a bad attitude.

I appreciate it can be a shock to the system and the first week might be difficult but if the above can't be sorted within a couple of weeks & certainly by the usual week 4 progress (of lack of) tests were red flags.

[Duca]

1. They were obvious in the first week of ground school.
2. Always behind the course/class speed.
3. Didn't take very good notes (girls are always best at note taking) or were generally badly organised.
4. Even after several times explaining a topic in different ways (even with another instructor) still didn't get it.
5. Poor at maths, shouldn't need a calculator to work out 10% of 200. That's what the aptitude tests are supposed to sort out.
6. When several instructors covering the different subjects all noticed the same thing was real cause for concern.
7. Had the rabbit caught in the car headlight look.
8. Failed to put in the 110% effort & commitment required (including evening work).
9. Occasionally they failed to connect socially with other course students. Your course mates will often help each other out & also a key skill for later.
10. Didn't ask for extra assistance soon enough or failed to listen to advice.
11. Difficulty in being away from home for the first time.
12. Very occasionally a bad attitude.

I appreciate it can be a shock to the system and the first week might be difficult but if the above can't be sorted within a couple of weeks & certainly by the usual week 4 progress (of lack of) tests were red flags.
So if you’re going to fail it will probably be during ground school?

[RichardH]

Not necessarily but it's usually the first part of the course and there is supposed to be (I am not convinced) a correlation between ground & flying pass/failure rates.

The flying is going to test other aspects such as co-ordination in handling & instrument flying skills & later on CRM. There are some who sail through ground school but just can't fly the aircraft to the required standards in the time allocated, this now starts to become expensive. Some even eventually realise they just don't like flying & it's not for them, one reason you should have at least one trial lesson before committing to an integrated course.

[Fadecc]

That’s why you are acting butt hurted…

Wow, you’ll make an excellent addition to the aviation industry… a little humility will do you well

[thebeast121]

we had a meeting last week with EZY and CAE. To sum up they said lots of things without saying anything, still theres 3 to 4 months delay and no compensation. We got the news of 4 months delay in september and 4 months later it is still 4 months delay. Feels so sluggish from their side imagine you have 4 months to solve something or come up with a solution or atleast minimise the delay and all you can come up with "we are doing our best". Doubt that

[43102]

What stage of training are you delayed at?

[Duca]

What stage of training are you delayed at?
I think they’re delaying the core phase, flight phase.

[wt02]

Hi guys,

Just a little inside scoop on the EZY MPL. I’m at the end of phase 1, so this is still subject to change. For the core flight phase, CAE have now changed how they’re doing it. So the 2/3 courses ahead of me are now going to Spain for the core flight phase, which will massively reduce the hold pool waiting times in Phoenix. They are still sending my course, the 1 ahead, and the 1 behind to Phoenix, which they expect to have no or very minimal delay as a result of sending the few courses ahead to Spain.

The MPL itself, personally, is a great prospect and becoming a much more validated way into the right seat, just as the integrated ATPL did a few decades ago. The conditional offer is just that, conditional. You have to achieve the correct standard throughout the course, which is a completely understandable requirement, in my opinion. Someone mentioned on this forum (I can’t remember who), that the MPL is a huge risk if the airline goes under, which is completely correct, as shown by the Monarch and FlyBe MPL schemes. Being aware of the financials of the airline that you’re applying to is a vital bit of information to base your decision on (easyJet has very little risk of going under, but it’s never 0 risk, nothing ever is).

There is also a pilot liaison team who are in regular (minimum once a month) contact with each course, and are situated within the same building that we are doing the course in, and it’s heavily emphasised that you can go and chat to them whenever you like, especially if you’re having issues and want to directly talk to easyJet.

No course is zero risk, what happens if you finish the end of the integrated/modular course and you don’t get employed? It’s all about finding out the course that is the most right for you, and the appeal of the easyJet MPL seemed right for me.

If you would like any more information, my DMs are open. 😊