View Full Version : Automated Autorotation landing
BlankBox
15th Nov 2023, 21:01
Pardon me while I close my eyes,,,
https://newatlas.com/aircraft/first-automated-autorotation-landing/
Hughes500
15th Nov 2023, 21:42
why is an EOL landing difficult ? It isnt so don't know why such a song and dance about it being a brown trouser moment
Agile
15th Nov 2023, 23:41
why is an EOL landing difficult ? It isnt so don't know why such a song and dance about it being a brown trouser moment
Yes another video spoiled by too many drama layer on top
Than said, a lot of people still mess up, good pilot included.
A full authority automated autorotation landing for the real life, would be extremely complex, starting with AI camera to be able to recognize suitable landing sites, weight them against other parameter such as proximity, wind direction, obstacles, then come up with a strategic landing patern.... all that in real time... good luck with that.
A partial authority autorotation help assist, that would be nice, just to anticipate colective down and regulate your RRPM, while you look arround for your landing strategy would be nice.
Rotorbee
16th Nov 2023, 07:16
Yes another video spoiled by too many drama layer on top
Than said, a lot of people still mess up, good pilot included.
A full authority automated autorotation landing for the real life, would be extremely complex, starting with AI camera to be able to recognize suitable landing sites, weight them against other parameter such as proximity, wind direction, obstacles, then come up with a strategic landing patern.... all that in real time... good luck with that.
A partial authority autorotation help assist, that would be nice, just to anticipate colective down and regulate your RRPM, while you look arround for your landing strategy would be nice.
Yeah, a bit too much drama and "OMG helicopter pilots are the most amazing human beings in the world".
I am there with you, a partial autorotation helper would be nice. That could be added to the SAS they have. On the other hand, if you have people who are only able to use a tablet to control the helicopter, I pretty much doubt, that they would be able to find a suitable landing spot in the time frame they have. I think a real pilot would do better and a real pilot probably would like to fly him/herself.
Time will tell, but if you ask me what happens in the next 20 years, we will see more and more autonomous flying things that can do all of that. You can do that with a map. You don't need the whole world map for that. When you load a flight plan into the ships computer, you can already load all the emergency landing spots and even let the ship fly the safest route with that information. A camera would only help if it sees something. Night and VMC, even with IR, might not be enough. Anyway, the AI part could be done by a central server, because autonomous flight with paying passengers would only be possible under constant positive control by the operator and ATC.
I can see the advantage and any help with the RPM would be welcome, but where is the fun in flying something with a tablet.
Looks like a great system for when you have an engine failure while on a high final to a runway.
Hughes500
17th Nov 2023, 06:16
LRP do I detect a hint of sarcasm ?
admikar
17th Nov 2023, 07:08
I wouldn't call that a hint. More of a truckload.
albatross
17th Nov 2023, 17:28
V1 : “Why would you want to build this system?”
Voices 2-3-4-5 ect.: “Because we think it would be really cool and we think we have the tech to do it.”
V1 : “Really, so how much time and $$$$$$ will it cost and who’s going to pay for it? How many engine failures are we experiencing on our marvellous Bung Verti-Leap Fun-Bus per year? Just off the top of my head what happens when this miraculous all seeing, all dancing invention screws up? We’ll get our ass sued off! How many customers would even want this system?”
LRP do I detect a hint of sarcasm ?
Maybe just a tad.
But seriously, the automation just replaces the easy part of an engine failure. That part can be accomplished by student pilots with training.
The part that gets people hurt is the availability/selection of the landing area, not sure if that is going to lend itself to automation.
Bell_ringer
18th Nov 2023, 09:03
Maybe just a tad.
But seriously, the automation just replaces the easy part of an engine failure. That part can be accomplished by student pilots with training.
The part that gets people hurt is the availability/selection of the landing area, not sure if that is going to lend itself to automation.
iirc Bell have automated the auto entry and maintaining optimal RRPM in the 525.
This in itself is useful in singles, as that is usually where the problems start.
It is easier to pick a better spot when some of the mental workload has been offloaded and you can focus on what direction you need to be pointing towards.
There is a broad range of competency and talent flying light helicopters, and that is a level of automation that can make a difference to safety.
It isn't a replacement for good technique, particularly if the technology fails at the wrong moment, and if it doubles the price of the ship then no one will want it.
Maybe Hill can quickly add that as an option to the HX50 :E
Simply_Fly
20th Nov 2023, 22:02
As we move into the future of rotary wing operations, automation will become more and more a part of the machines we fly. I think this is great, but also a double edge sword. Too much reliance and core skills will slowly disappear - not a good thing IMO. Automation is just another skillset that will need attention while maintaining the ability to take over and hand fly when needed. At least (I hope) this will mean pilots will be needed for a long time yet...
iirc Bell have automated the auto entry and maintaining optimal RRPM in the 525.
This in itself is useful in singles, as that is usually where the problems start.
It is easier to pick a better spot when some of the mental workload has been offloaded and you can focus on what direction you need to be pointing towards.
There is a broad range of competency and talent flying light helicopters, and that is a level of automation that can make a difference to safety.
It isn't a replacement for good technique, particularly if the technology fails at the wrong moment, and if it doubles the price of the ship then no one will want it.
Maybe Hill can quickly add that as an option to the HX50 :E
There are pros and cons to every system, you make a good point.
Personally, I don't want to fly a single engine helicopter with an automated system that will enter autorotation whenever it thinks there has been an engine failure. Erroneous "engine out" warnings are not unheard of. Anyone remember the Bell engine overspeed protection system? No thanks. The benefits don't outweigh the risks.
My opinion, YMMV.
Agile
21st Nov 2023, 00:42
As we move into the future of rotary wing operations, automation will become more and more a part of the machines we fly. I think this is great, but also a double edge sword. Too much reliance and core skills will slowly disappear - not a good thing IMO. Automation is just another skillset that will need attention while maintaining the ability to take over and hand fly when needed. At least (I hope) this will mean pilots will be needed for a long time yet...
Helicopters without governors (AKA Hugues 300...) now FADEC controlled engine, is it a double edge sword?, not really as long as the new system that replaces the former pilot task is designed in a way that is so reliable that the former core skill will never be required again.
Will it remove some of the flying fun, yes, just as it is more fun to drive a stick shift car than a CVT transmission.
I guess the hardest part to surender will be the "the ability to take over and hand fly when needed" like you said.
but it will probably come once we can qualify it like the rest of it.
Bell_ringer
21st Nov 2023, 08:29
The benefits don't outweigh the risks.
I would agree considering the current tech. Perhaps it is something we can see included in future designs where there is sufficient redundancy.
I can suggest a simple improvement
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/340x336/auto_0378edc321a39504e49cb86702cbf844cf6bc0d3.png
Simply_Fly
21st Nov 2023, 11:27
Helicopters without governors (AKA Hugues 300...) now FADEC controlled engine, is it a double edge sword?, not really as long as the new system that replaces the former pilot task is designed in a way that is so reliable that the former core skill will never be required again.
Will it remove some of the flying fun, yes, just as it is more fun to drive a stick shift car than a CVT transmission.
I guess the hardest part to surender will be the "the ability to take over and hand fly when needed" like you said.
but it will probably come once we can qualify it like the rest of it.
I think you are right and one day in the future those former core skills will never be required again....I guess that will pretty much leave us on the sidelines as the automation becomes so good that no pilots are needed at all. I am doubtful that will happen in our careers....at least probably not in the 10 years or so that I have left....unless they learn how to reverse ageing too by then! At least my CVT transmission still has paddle shifters and through some magic, I can still (sort of) shift like a stick shift....haha. Cheers.
twinstar_ca
21st Nov 2023, 22:03
This is as bad as those stupid car commercials where they parallel park themselves... the driver just lets go of the wheel... :mad::=
Lonewolf_50
22nd Nov 2023, 00:40
If you want me to pay for a ride in your helicopter, and you lack the ability, or the confidence in your own ability, to fly an auto when needed then I have no reason to be a passenger in your helicopter nor to pay you for it.
That's the long and the short of it.
HAL can **** right off.
Agile
22nd Nov 2023, 01:08
If you want me to pay for a ride in your helicopter, and you lack the ability, or the confidence in your own ability, to fly an auto when needed then I have no reason to be a passenger in your helicopter nor to pay you for it.
That's the long and the short of it.
HAL can **** right off.
Its not a matter of ability or confidence, its matter of vision and roadmap for the technologies that will be seamlessly integrated in our future.
When I was younger I used to have a 205 GTI wannabe rally car, I mastered the art shifting gears like the best of them, confidence and ability was 100%.
There we are 25 year later transmissions are not relevant anymore with electric cars.
Bell_ringer
22nd Nov 2023, 10:32
There we are 25 year later transmissions are not relevant anymore with electric cars.
Even with multiple clutch, sequential gearboxes, the microcontroller is way better and faster at shifting than a human, not considering that a transmission can have 8 or more gears now. That would make manual shifting interesting.
SASless
22nd Nov 2023, 11:30
During my time 13 Gear manual transmissions on big rigs was common.....now they are automatics.
It did give you something to do and the clutch could become a real. problem in stop and go traffic back ups as the left leg got awfully tired unless you put the gearbox into neutral when coming to a stop.
Once you the truck rolling the ****ting could be done without use of the clutch which was left engaged. and was only used in starting and stopping with gear changes being done by use of the ****ft lever and Buttons only controlling torque by use of the "Go" pedal.
That technique was known by Drivers as "Floating the Box".
Sir Korsky
22nd Nov 2023, 13:53
Let's face it, pilots have crashed far more aircraft than computers ever will. Folk are happy for cars and trains to drive themselves. It's only a matter of time before commercial aircraft launch themselves - and yes, they do a far better job than the meat servos can. You'll just pick a spot on Google earth, tell it where you want to land and off it will go. Flying will be just for fun, like buying a sport's car over a regular sedan. I'm sure an auto landing using LIDAR in IMC would work much better with a computer in charge.
Bell_ringer
22nd Nov 2023, 19:15
During my time 13 Gear manual transmissions on big rigs was common.....now they are automatics.
.
Sas, was this a period photo?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/528x528/f5473071_4892_41e8_8048_28d2166b92fc_9b33d3ab9cf1485714bb961 be130f7698c3d2e38.jpeg
tecpilot
19th Dec 2023, 09:14
The level of automation will relatively quickly reach a level that most current pilots cannot yet imagine. This is also because pilots are the least involved in these mostly digital developments. Engineers need fewer and fewer pilots in an environment of full flight digital models.
It is being developed on computers, tested on articial full flight simulations far away from any airfield and most pilots realize it first when it's rolled out.
A lot of work is underway in small development companies and among the big players to develop automated emergency procedures which presently still need manual work and experience from the pilot.
I bet in 20 years the need for old fashion way helicopter pilots will have fallen drastically and I say that as an old fashion way 9000h pilot and development engineer.