How are people getting modular so cheap!??

[bitcoin]

Good evening everybody, I'm looking for modular courses, but I don't get how people are claiming that they can get an fATPL the modular route for £60,000! I'm based in the UK by the way, but this was my plan:

- Get a PPL including hour building packages about $15k, around £12660, (I haven't been quoted hour building package but let's assume the upper quartile of £200 per hour to factor in instructor costs, so around £15-20k to build hours)
NOT including accommodation
- Go for a CPL/IR course (about £35,000 for the SE/ME CPL/IR including full board accommodation.
- Go for a UPRT course (about £2100)
- Go for an APS MCC (about £8300 including food and accommodation)
So the price is £73,000 NOT including accommodation at PPL location, which is considerably cheaper than any integrated course, but how are people claiming that you can get the ATPL via modular route at "half the price"!??

[rudestuff]

Because based on your plan you don't fully understand how modular works. Sub-£50k is entirely possible using current UK prices.

Following the plan that you (and the other 90% - you're not alone!) intend to follow is so stuctured, unimaginative and obvious it's more like a build-your-own integrated course. It makes use of none of the advantages that the modular system gives you. I won't bother repeating myself here, but click on my other posts and you'll see a breakdown and explanation what I consider to be the optimum modular route.

[bitcoin]

Because you clearly don't understand how modular works. Sub-£50k is entirely possible using current UK prices.
That's why I'm asking. The PPL + hours take up so much, and I don't know where to get cheaper prices, for them. The MCC and CPL/IR prices seem ok, but the PPL prices are nowhere near the other modular thread posts!

[LCpl_Ghostrider]

Good evening everybody, I'm looking for modular courses, but I don't get how people are claiming that they can get an fATPL the modular route for £60,000! I'm based in the UK by the way, but this was my plan:

- Get a PPL including hour building packages about $15k, around £12660, (I haven't been quoted hour building package but let's assume the upper quartile of £200 per hour to factor in instructor costs, so around £15-20k to build hours)
NOT including accommodation
- Go for a CPL/IR course (about £35,000 for the SE/ME CPL/IR including full board accommodation.
- Go for a UPRT course (about £2100)
- Go for an APS MCC (about £8300 including food and accommodation)
So the price is £73,000 NOT including accommodation at PPL location, which is considerably cheaper than any integrated course, but how are people claiming that you can get the ATPL via modular route at "half the price"!??

Join the Army/RAF Reserves, utilise service flying clubs which are subsidised by the crown and also top rate CFIs (as most fly on the frontline for the RAF), utilise military accommodation whilst on more advanced stages of flying training as you are allowed to.

Also look at sponsorships, Wingly, Hr building in the US (I have found C150s for £75 p/h wet and DA-40s for £150 p/h wet) and pursue the CBIR SEP IR by undertaking the IR R and flying IFR outside of Class A. Once you have to the SEP IR convert to MEIR.

Keep hustling, connecting dots and researching! Google is your friend.

[rudestuff]

CPL/IR prices seem ok This is your problem. Read the post above 👆. You need to get away from the idea of PPL + Hours + CPL/IR. Unless you want to spend a lot more money of course.
...claiming that they can get an fATPL the modular route...There isn't a single modular "route", there are many. Even the number of modules can vary from a few as 5 to as many as 8. The "route" offered by flight schools tend to be the one that suits them not you. It's all about marketing.

[bitcoin]

Thanks all for your advice, I tried to fix my draft to make it less "customised integrated", are these about the right prices?


PPL: £7695 + £270 for exams (£7965)

Night rating (£1200)

Hour building (£10,000)

Ground School ( £6066) (I can't do distance learning, even with my motivation it's not possible)

ME (£3850)

MEIR: (£19,980)

APS-MCC (£6,000)

[rudestuff]

The PPL, Night, MEP etc all look about right, but you won't save much money by blowing £20k on an MEIR. An SEIR will set you back £1500-£2500 and an MEIR should be no more than £4-5k.

[Arena_33]

Thanks all for your advice, I tried to fix my draft to make it less "customised integrated", are these about the right prices?


PPL: £7695 + £270 for exams (£7965)

Night rating (£1200)

Hour building (£10,000)

Ground School ( £6066) (I can't do distance learning, even with my motivation it's not possible)

ME (£3850)

MEIR: (£19,980)

APS-MCC (£6,000)



Don't forget CPL

[Planner01]

You're off for PPL. Budget £180 per hour minimum x 45. Then add medical, you'll want class 1 which will be about £700. You'll also need to pay the examiner's fee for the skills test, many many touch and goes; you pay for each one. You'll need equipment too; Use EasyPPL for theory which will be around £130 for all modules. You'll need other various equipment for nav such as ruler, CRP (Get CRP 5 is going ATPL) which is £80ish (don't buy used, fakes are out there, oddly). You'll also want your own headset. Cheap ones are just over £100 new or you can find used David Clarks on ebay. Everyone ends up with Bose A20s or A30s (they are worth it) and that's £1k. Then add on other costs like landing fees when doing land aways, licence application fee to the CAA, SkyDemon subscription, ram mount for your phone. You'll be just over £10k for PPL all in if done in minimum hours at a cheap school.
You won't get hour building in the UK for £10k. You'll be looking at £150 per hour in a C152.
Night rating - expect £1500 at the cheapest.
Consider the possibility of having to pay for a type rating too. Ryanair want 30k Euro.

[bitcoin]

I forgot to include CPL + the UPRT.
Modular Plan:

PPL flying club: £8550 + £270 exam fees (assume 50 hours instead of 45 minimum, and it doesnt say the examiner fee, although I doubt it would fluctuate the overall price too much)
Ground School: £6066 (must be in person learning, I cannot do distance learning)
Night rating: £1026 (again, no idea of examiner fee, but above)
Hour building: £10,000 converted from USD for 100 hours. (rate is $117/hour for C152)
CPL, MEIR: £28,858 + £30 per night * 91 = £31,588
UPRT- £1695 + £30 per night x 3 nights = £1785
APS-MCC £6000 (probably with Skyborne)

Total: £65,285
the other headset and class 1 medical isn't included for budget. I'm looking at a UK-CAA license, so Ryanair is off the table, unless you recommend getting dual licensing?
I don't worry too much about fees to CAA, just the main part of the courses.
How are people getting sub 50k still? It's the CPL/IR part that's tripping me up, I can't find a cheaper course which offers CPL and MEIR.
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated

[rudestuff]

Clearly you're not thinking outside the box yet. You need to do the right courses in the optimum order.

[HypoxicWaiter]

I found hour building post PPL at £78 an hour wet in a SportsCruiser. Did 50 hours in that and then COVID happened and I spent the last few years distance learning and passing the ATPL theory. I now fly a PA38 around for £100ph wet to finish the last of the hour building. My point here is there are far cheaper options than flying clubs to build hours. Check the Flyer Forum for aircraft shares.

I took Rudestuffs advice and embarked on a SE CBIR this summer for a cost of £10k. I was going to do an IR(R) at my local club and then upgrade to a full IR via the CBIR route but I valued the consistency of a full course in the same aircraft. I did want to do a SE CPL and then make the MEP the last course, using different flying clubs around England. However I chose to keep all my training at the same provider (they're modular, pay as you go) so that I'm eligible for certain flying vacancies that stipulate no more than 3 ATOs used to gain the ATPL theory, CPL/IR, and MCC. I'll have to do the MEP before the CPL (their 15 hour course is 10 in a DA40 and 5+test in a DA42) but I can leave the SE to ME IR upgrade until the end, and its also partly on a DA42 sim ( as is the MEP ) which saves money. I also work full time so keeping all my training in one place helps massively with consistency and is worth the few extra pounds I'll have to spend.

I believe the British Aerobatic Academy do a joint UPRT and MCC course which saves you a little money.

​​​​​

[bitcoin]

Isn’t
PPL, Ground school, Hour building. CPL, MEIR, UPRT, MCC the order?

[paco]

Do the ME/IR with a PPL, that way you can count the hours into your total. Rudestuff has put all this in other posts. Also do the ground school while you are flying - you can train but not take the skill test until you have passed them all.

[PPRuNeUser0203]

Interesting you did hour building in a SportCruiser. I assume for a UK license as even three-axis microlight hours can count towards PPL revalidation and PIC hours.

Just wondering what the EASA rules are for allowable aircraft type, for those that want to pursue a dual CAA and EASA license? (Asking for a friend…)

[rudestuff]

I found hour building post PPL at £78 an hour wet in a SportsCruiser. Did 50 hours in that and then COVID happened and I spent the last few years distance learning and passing the ATPL theory. I now fly a PA38 around for £100ph wet to finish the last of the hour building. My point here is there are far cheaper options than flying clubs to build hours. Check the Flyer Forum for aircraft shares.

I took Rudestuffs advice and embarked on a SE CBIR this summer for a cost of £10k. I was going to do an IR(R) at my local club and then upgrade to a full IR via the CBIR route but I valued the consistency of a full course in the same aircraft. I did want to do a SE CPL and then make the MEP the last course, using different flying clubs around England. However I chose to keep all my training at the same provider (they're modular, pay as you go) so that I'm eligible for certain flying vacancies that stipulate no more than 3 ATOs used to gain the ATPL theory, CPL/IR, and MCC. I'll have to do the MEP before the CPL (their 15 hour course is 10 in a DA40 and 5+test in a DA42) but I can leave the SE to ME IR upgrade until the end, and its also partly on a DA42 sim ( as is the MEP ) which saves money. I also work full time so keeping all my training in one place helps massively with consistency and is worth the few extra pounds I'll have to spend.

I believe the British Aerobatic Academy do a joint UPRT and MCC course which saves you a little money.​​​​​Good job, I think a lot of people would be interested in a breakdown of your costs.
Interesting you did hour building in a SportCruiser. I assume for a UK license as even three-axis microlight hours can count towards PPL revalidation and PIC hours. Just wondering what the EASA rules are for allowable aircraft type, for those that want to pursue a dual CAA and EASA license? (Asking for a friend…)There are a few UL types which can be optionally certified to a higher weight limit, so you can count the hours but you need a PPL.

[Alanga1991]

Because based on your plan you don't fully understand how modular works. Sub-£50k is entirely possible using current UK prices.

Following the plan that you (and the other 90% - you're not alone!) intend to follow is so stuctured, unimaginative and obvious it's more like a build-your-own integrated course. It makes use of none of the advantages that the modular system gives you. I won't bother repeating myself here, but click on my other posts and you'll see a breakdown and explanation what I consider to be the optimum modular route.

just tried searching for your other posts and can’t find any. Would love this breakdown as I’m just about to start the advanced training and don’t want to spend money if I can get the same quality training for much much cheaper.

[LongStoryShort]

Does anyone here have experience about how difficult it is to find a job after going for the modular route (ATPL)?

[MassivePilotMan]

This sounds great! How much did it cost you overall? It would be very helpful if you could do a cost breakdown. Also, is the CBIR route worth it, considering you get fewer ME hours overall?

[P40Warhawk]

Does anyone here have experience about how difficult it is to find a job after going for the modular route (ATPL)?

In todays market, it doesnt really matter how you did your training and where.

But the market can change very rapidly. Wjen I finished in 2013, the market was not good at all, then the airlines were a lot more picky and preferred integrated students.

Just an example... KLM used to hire ONLY from KLM School, Airforce, EPST, NLS and Martinair School, now anyone with a license get a chance for the Assessment.

Once again, market is volatile.

[AucT]

I forgot to include CPL + the UPRT.
Modular Plan:

PPL flying club: £8550 + £270 exam fees (assume 50 hours instead of 45 minimum, and it doesnt say the examiner fee, although I doubt it would fluctuate the overall price too much)
Ground School: £6066 (must be in person learning, I cannot do distance learning)
Night rating: £1026 (again, no idea of examiner fee, but above)
Hour building: £10,000 converted from USD for 100 hours. (rate is $117/hour for C152)
CPL, MEIR: £28,858 + £30 per night * 91 = £31,588
UPRT- £1695 + £30 per night x 3 nights = £1785
APS-MCC £6000 (probably with Skyborne)

Total: £65,285
the other headset and class 1 medical isn't included for budget. I'm looking at a UK-CAA license, so Ryanair is off the table, unless you recommend getting dual licensing?
I don't worry too much about fees to CAA, just the main part of the courses.
How are people getting sub 50k still? It's the CPL/IR part that's tripping me up, I can't find a cheaper course which offers CPL and MEIR.
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated

I would suggest you to follow a slightly different route starting after night rating:

* IR(R) - £4000 (must be with Instructor who has rating to teach IR)
* Build Hours in IFR with a friend to look out for safety (Lots of ILS, RNP, VOR, NDB approaches)
* CBIR - because you will have lots of IFR hours, you can get SE-IR with 10 hours of training flights!
* MEP - 5 hours to complete the course (without Skill Test as ME-IR course requires only MEP course completion and NOT a skill test)
* ME-IR upgrade from SE-IR
* CPL
* APS MCC and UPRT

This should save you further £8-10K on your training fees as well as you become a very competent pilot in IFR flights.

PS. If you find an ATO with dual certification UK and EASA, you can get dual licence. (IR skill test must be taken in EU area) Albeit, you need to pass double ATPL Exams.

[CAVOKpilot]

I managed my modular pathway for about £73,000 in close to minimum hours. Did an IR(R) for £2500, saved me 10hrs @ £650 later, so gave me a £4000 saving there. The IR(R) was 15 additional P2 hours but worth it for the saving later. My hour building was on a C152 at £140/hr and £80/year membership in Midlands, not many other places cheaper than that - I chose to avoid share ownership as too high risk for my taste. I managed a £1500 discount on ATPL with Bristol through a scholarship, no resits thankfully. I lost £2500 on 2 x partial passes, aircraft hire and examiner fees. I could have done my CPL ME IR perhaps £7000 cheaper at a smaller school with older equipment. All in, if I had made some other (but not necessarily better) choices I think I could have done it for about £63,000. Never factored in fuel costs, but that was because I factored that in as part of my regular monthly budgeting. Accommodation for exams, 1 x pre-COVID ATPL revision week (later moved online) and MCC didn't come in more than £1000 - all budget options.

Shout out to CRM Aviation at White Waltham - great price (cheapest APS MCC out there I believe), small groups, nice location, VERY experienced instructors (mostly BA and Virgin captains). Best part of my training by a long sea mile.

[CAVOKpilot]

Does anyone here have experience about how difficult it is to find a job after going for the modular route (ATPL)?

Market is good at the moment. Everyone on my APS MCC had jobs within 6 months. In my 7 years in aviation/airline ops, I've witnessed a gradual shift in attitude towards respecting and valuing the modular pathway - strength of character, work ethic etc. Such is the market now, there is very little discrimination against the modular route - after all its the same licence as the integrated pathway! I know modular pilots bagging jobs at BA, Jet2, TUI, Aurigny, Loganair, Blue Island - it goes on. However, there is one orange airline that continues to discriminate against modular and will only take production line cadets from the established colleges. I totally understand their reasons. But with a manifesting pilot shortage, less and less people being able to afford the extortionate costs of self-funded integrated training, a small pilot pool to select from (post Brexit UK licence holders only), plus competition from other UK airlines who are resurrecting fully sponsored schemes, it's only going to be a matter of time before they alter their preferences.

When I first started looking at pilot training, and realising that the modular pathway was the only option for me, I was told by my instructors that an airline jet job would surely be out of the question. They said I might be lucky and find turboprop charter or survey work if I had contacts, or I could always go to Susi Air to build my hours. All this before even having the chance of a sniff at an airline job. Glad I gave it a go anyway despite their grim forecast, the reality is certainly very different to what they proposed 10 years ago.

[WindyTurtle]

I would suggest you to follow a slightly different route starting after night rating:

* IR(R) - £4000 (must be with Instructor who has rating to teach IR)
* Build Hours in IFR with a friend to look out for safety (Lots of ILS, RNP, VOR, NDB approaches)
* CBIR - because you will have lots of IFR hours, you can get SE-IR with 10 hours of training flights!
* MEP - 5 hours to complete the course (without Skill Test as ME-IR course requires only MEP course completion and NOT a skill test)
* ME-IR upgrade from SE-IR
* CPL
* APS MCC and UPRT

This should save you further £8-10K on your training fees as well as you become a very competent pilot in IFR flights.

PS. If you find an ATO with dual certification UK and EASA, you can get dual licence. (IR skill test must be taken in EU area) Albeit, you need to pass double ATPL Exams.

So if I do all the IRR SECBIR stuff at any school, I could still get the dual-license MEIR if I do that short conversion course at an EASA approved ATO?

[rudestuff]

So if I do all the IRR SECBIR stuff at any school, I could still get the dual-license MEIR if I do that short conversion course at an EASA approved ATO?
Good question. I was initial going to say no, then I read the text. The only requirement for the '50-hour' CBIR route is that you have 50 hours as PIC under IFR in 'an aeroplane'. So technically you could get a CBIR then do a 5 hour MEIR course at a dual ATO. A MEIR test with a dual rated examiner could potentially count as both the upgrade for one authority and an initial (50-hour)CBIR for the other.

[WindyTurtle]

Good question. I was initial going to say no, then I read the text. The only requirement for the '50-hour' CBIR route is that you have 50 hours as PIC under IFR in 'an aeroplane'. So technically you could get a CBIR then do a 5 hour MEIR course at a dual ATO. A MEIR test with a dual rated examiner could potentially count as both the upgrade for one authority and an initial (50-hour)CBIR for the other.

This looks promising! This site (https://patricklienhart.com/cms/easa-cb-ir/) supports what you said about 50hr PIC but cross-country. This other site (https://www.aerotours.de/en/cb-ira-competency-based-instrument-rating-702.html) suggests that, provided you have the adequate hours with an IR instructor, you should be eligible for an EASA CBIR as there's nothing mentioned to disallow UK instruction. As does this site (https://flight-examiner.com/skill-test/competency-instrument-rating). Seeing as the CBIR is a skills test to test your IFR competency (having met the minimum requirements), I don't see why I couldn't get the dual CBIR with the conversion. I've emailed an EASA approved ATO for their take on the matter and will update when I get a reply.