Was Navigator streaming a thing?

[Avionker]

Gents, indulge me if you will.

As an ex-RAF ground trade (avionics) I’m curious if Navigators were “streamed” in a similar fashion to pilots?

I would have thought (perhaps wrongly) that sitting in the boot of a Tornado, low level at night, would be somewhat more challenging than “trucking around” in a Hercules or sipping coffee and eating DCS on a Nimrod as a routine Nav.

After graduation were all Navs expected to be able to operate any aircraft type, with appropriate conversion courses and OCU etc, or was there a point in training where the decision was made that Bloggs was Fast Jet material and Simpkins was heading to multi-engine.

Idle curiosity is my only motivation in asking, not looking to start a bun fight.

[Wensleydale]

Back in the 70s, Navs were streamed into Group 1 (fast Jet/radar) and Group 2 (Plotters who sat at a Nav table and guided the larger aircraft by drawing lines on a map). Streaming was after a basic plotting course and a low-level Jet Provost phase. Flying badge presented after the end of either Group training phase.

[Lonewolf_50]

For what it's worth, the USN did something similar to what Wensleydale (https://www.pprune.org/members/153579-wensleydale) described, splitting the training pipelines after the initial course between the P-3, E-2, and Fast Jet (EA-6B, F-18G Growler, F-14, S-3) pipelines, depending on the years we are talking about.

[Avionker]

Thanks Wensleydale for the prompt reply, I thought it likely that some kind of streaming would be carried out, just don’t remember it ever been talked about.

Thanks also to Lonewolf for info on the USN system. Similar goal, similar approach for most air arms I suppose.

[ICM]

Going further back, there was no Nav streaming in the mid-1960s.

[Timelord]

When I went through as a student in 1973 there was no streaming. Everyone did the same course : Varsity (plotting) a few hours JP (low level visual Nav)/and Dominie (plotting faster, radar and a bit of low level). Depending on how you performed at each you were posted . The fast jet OCUs were, not surprisingly, unhappy with the standard of Nav input and started sending navs to the Tac Weapons Units (Hawk) pre OCU.
By the time I went back as an instructor (1989) There was a lot of streaming. After basic Dominies they were streamed ME or FJ. FJ students did Low level Dominies then basic JP. Then further Streamed LL or Air Defence for a dedicated advanced JP course.
I believe the ME students were also streamed for maritime or transport leading to dedicated sorties for those skills.

[charliegolf]

I recall the term, 'Fightergators', or similar being coined by the press office/recruiters!

CG

[beardy]

By the time I went back as an instructor (1989) There was a lot of streaming. After basic Dominies they were streamed ME or FJ. FJ students did Low level Dominies then basic JP. Then further Streamed LL or Air Defence for a dedicated advanced JP course.
​​​​​​​That's interesting. When I was there on the JP 1983-7. The course ran common Dominie and JP phase then streamed for further Dominie and JP for the fast jet stream and only Dominie for GP 2.

[2Planks]

Streaming was a thing when I went through in 87 and as an instructor 92-5.
Common Bulldog Phase (air experience really)
Common Dominie Phase (high level nav)
Common JP Phase (latterly Tucano) low level vis nav.
Streamed Gp 1 Fast Jet or Gp 2 Multi Engine
Group 2 went off to learn the dark arts of Astro etc in the Dominie (the drawback was for the guys who went Nimrods as there wasn’t a great deal of tactical stuff.)
Group 1 did a low level radar targeting phase in the Dominie, followed by an advanced JP common phase (latterly the Hawk). After role disposal there was a strike attack lead in or air defence lead in on the JP/Hawk. For those sent Canberra at role disposal it was back to the Dominie for a bit more dark arts training.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Was anyone streamed rotary? I flew with a lot of Nav’s on helicopter Sqn’s, but now that I think about it they were all ex-FW I think. That said, if my memory gets any worse I could throw my own surprise party, so I could be mis-remembering this.

[melmothtw]

Further to the OP question, could a 'Fightergator' request instead to be a multiengine/rotary-winged pilot, or were their aptitude skills for flying deemed to be so poor that even that was off limits?

[beardy]

Was anyone streamed rotary? I flew with a lot of Nav’s on helicopter Sqn’s, but now that I think about it they were all ex-FW I think. That said, if my memory gets any worse I could throw my own surprise party, so I could be mis-remembering this.
Yes, but not frequently. The nav in the chinook that hit the jetway in Germany (Stuttgart? Frankfurt? ) whilst taxying was a first tourist and one of my ex students.

[Avionker]

Thanks for the replies so far. Interesting to see how the streaming of Navs developed over time, possibly as a result of feedback from OCUs and frontline Sqns it appears.

Talking of Navs on helicopters we had one, and one only, on the SAR Flt I was posted to in the mid 80’s. All the other Radar/Winch operators were AEOp’s.

The particular officer in question was a lovely chap, but was not in the first flush of youth. Picture a Spec Aircrew version of Godfrey from Dad’s Army and you’re not a million miles away.

Not sure what he had flown on previously but we (the groundcrew) suspected, somewhat uncharitably, that he was posted to helicopters as they could stop mid-air and hence allow him to catch up…

[Vasco dePilot]

I got my Navigator brevet in 1969. The course was eight months on Varsity followed by four months on the Dominie. Despite the low level roles of Canberras and Vulcans, we were given no low level training whatsoever. With the introduction of the Phantom and Buccaneers into the RAF, this defect was immediately highlighted and some low level training introduced and then formal streaming commenced. I think this was in 1971/72.
My first tour was on EW training Canberras on which we did little low level navigation. We did fly some sorties at low level in the vicinity of the system to which we were giving EW training. However, navigating to and from was at medium or high level.
Next tour was on the C130 where I spent 6 years on Tactical squadrons which had lots on low level. All the tactical techniques were learned on the course run at Lyneham.

[Wensleydale]

Thanks for the replies so far. Interesting to see how the streaming of Navs developed over time, possibly as a result of feedback from OCUs and frontline Sqns it appears.

Talking of Navs on helicopters we had one, and one only, on the SAR Flt I was posted to in the mid 80’s. All the other Radar/Winch operators were AEOp’s.

The particular officer in question was a lovely chap, but was not in the first flush of youth. Picture a Spec Aircrew version of Godfrey from Dad’s Army and you’re not a million miles away.

Not sure what he had flown on previously but we (the groundcrew) suspected, somewhat uncharitably, that he was posted to helicopters as they could stop mid-air and hence allow him to catch up…


I suppose it depends who the instructor was on the selection course. In my case, my instructor told me at our introduction that he didn't like Navs as winch ops and that I had no chance of passing selection: I didn't.

[Lima Juliet]

Yup. This was how it was in the last days of Finningley:

Group 1 = Fast Jet
Group 2 = Multi-Engine
Group 3 = Rotary

[Barksdale Boy]

I trained as a nav in 1966: no streaming at Gaydon; then at Strad, either Dominie - high and fast, or Varsity - low and slow.

[minigundiplomat]

Yes, it was called 'failing the pilot course'.

[Timelord]

Yes, it was called 'failing the pilot course'.

Multi engine pilot training was also at Finningley. The nav school line book describes a ME student pilot walking into the ante room where “Top Gun “ was being shown. “Ah, I like this film, the navigator gets killed”
Voice from the darkened seats,”At least he made fast jets though”

[Brian 48nav]

I trust that was meant to be a humorous remark.

I wanted to be a navigator and put that as my first choice on my OASC application in 65. Having seen the film 'Dr Strangelove' where the nav' was the coolest guy in the B52 crew and the pilot captain was completely nuts had swayed me somewhat. When I was at Gaydon/Strad in 66/7 I was aware of only 2 or 3 chopped pilots among the 100 or so students. On the Herc' fleet we had one or two wannabe pilots - a couple of names come to mind of guys who went to the' dark side' - Graham Finch, Alex Nash and Art Lofthouse.

The downside of being a nav was flying opportunities after RAF service - I believe BOAC got rid of navs ( as opposed to pilots as navs ) in 63 and although there was a brief resurgence when independent airlines ( Dan Air, Lloyd etc ) bought 707s when the big boys replaced them with heavies, I think it was all over by the end of the 70s.

[Dunhovrin]

Multi engine pilot training was also at Finningley. The nav school line book describes a ME student pilot walking into the ante room where “Top Gun “ was being shown. “Ah, I like this film, the navigator gets killed”
Voice from the darkened seats,”At least he made fast jets though”

There was also the comment “Amazing effects. A Nav co-ordinated enough to play the piano”.

[ICM]

There were 17 of us when 72 Nav Course formed in early January 1965 - the only 'failed pilot' was from the Rhodesian Air Force.

[Ken Scott]

Multi engine pilot training was also at Finningley. The nav school line book describes a ME student pilot walking into the ante room where “Top Gun “ was being shown. “Ah, I like this film, the navigator gets killed”
Voice from the darkened seats,”At least he made fast jets though”

One boisterous evening in the mess bar a student nav sought to dampen the enthusiasm of the ME pilot cadre by calling out ‘tell us what happened at Valley?’ (Many of those on the Jetstream cse had completed the ‘ME lead-in cse’ on the Hawk…). Quick as a flash one of the pilots responded with ‘tell us what happened at Biggin Hill!’

​​​​​​​Not sure if anyone was sober enough to add it to the line book though.

[The Oberon]

One for ex V-force Navs. Who or when was it decided if you were to become a Nav. Plot or Nav. Rad??

[vascodegama]

[QUOTE=Ken Scott;11539562]One boisterous evening in the mess bar a student nav sought to dampen the enthusiasm of the ME pilot cadre by calling out ‘tell us what happened at Valley?’ (Many of those on the Jetstream cse had completed the ‘ME lead-in cse’ on the Hawk…). Quick as a flash one of the pilots responded with ‘tell us what happened at Biggin Hill!’

Not sure if anyone was sober enough to add it to the line book though.[/

At one point those who didn’t succeed at Valley went no further as pilots .

​​​​​​​Oberon in my case it was Barnwood or Barndoor as they were better known.

[teeteringhead]

I was aware of only 2 or 3 chopped pilots among the 100 or so students.. Think most chopped pilots went to be Air Traffickers.......

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

My Dad was a WOp/AG in WW2. After the war he applied for pilot training and was turned down as he came from a Newcastle pit village (my Grandad was a miner) and hadn't gone to the right school, which hadn't mattered before the war had been won. He subsequently retrained as a Nav (no streaming or silver spoon necessary) and upon leaving the RAF in 53 went to BOAC. He was made redundant along with all the other Navs in 63.

NEO

[Timelord]

One for ex V-force Navs. Who or when was it decided if you were to become a Nav. Plot or Nav. Rad??

At a role disposal conference at the end of (unstreamed) Nav school. Radars like me tended to be the ones who were no good at all the log keeping and chart work. As one instructor said to me “TL, the worst thing the RAF ever did was give you a pencil “

[Barksdale Boy]

One for ex V-force Navs. Who or when was it decided if you were to become a Nav. Plot or Nav. Rad??
In 66/67 all Vulcan 1st tourist navs were sent for radar training. At about that time one first tourist was selected to be a plotter - K** R***. The experiment was not a success.

[Timelord]

First tourist plotters were rare in the 70s but not unheard of. Radars were generally considered the junior member of the nav team. Interestingly it was the other way round in the B52 force whose plotters spoke of “upgrading to radar Nav”.
Anyway, maybe we should be on the nostalgia forum!

[Nil_Drift]

I was at Finningley in 1988/9 and concur 2Planks' comment. After the Dominie high level intro, and the low level intro on JP5, my final low level IP to target run was the A74 Lockerbie roundabout, 22 Dec 88, the day after the Lockerbie terrorist tragedy. All flying was scrubbed until after Christmas. I was streamed Gp2 in the New Year but that suited me.

As it happens, I was a "failed pilot". I deliberately use quote marks because one week I was told that I was "a natural" and the next week I was chopped with almost the whole of my EFTS course and the courses behind mine. The wait for JP pilot training was more than 2 years and somebody made the decision to simply stop the pilot intake. I was at Wyton in 2009/10 when the same happened again. Many young lads [as it was in those days, 1987] were totally devastated having their childhood ambitions removed at the stroke of a senior officer's pen. As an ex-ranker, I had hedged my bets at Biggin Hill and put second choice Nav just in case. The Nav courses at Finningley in 1988/89 had a lot of ex-pilot students.

[OJ 72]

'Nil Drift' we must be almost exact contemporaries at Finningley, as I completed my 'Basic' JP5 Low Level FNT the very afternoon of the Lockerbie bombing. Consequently, I, along with one other member of 362 ANC (Ph*l K*r**n, IIRC) had nearly a month's leave over Christmas and New Year 1988/89 whilst we waited for the rest of the course(s) to complete their remaining sorties.

I remember having to ring the Flt Cdr, V**ce M**, every couple of days in Jan 89 to work out a date to get back for the start of the Advanced Dominie Phase - Gp 1 in my case!!! :8

[Nil_Drift]

OJ 72. I've just sent you a PM. :)

[onlyme]

That's interesting. When I was there on the JP 1983-7. The course ran common Dominie and JP phase then streamed for further Dominie and JP for the fast jet stream and only Dominie for GP 2.
That's my recollection...we were there at the same time beardy, I was on JPs 85-87

[Shaft109]

Appropriately this popped up on my recommended videos this evening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkSrkHljnEQ

[212man]

Yes, but not frequently. The nav in the chinook that hit the jetway in Germany (Stuttgart? Frankfurt? ) whilst taxying was a first tourist and one of my ex students.
Hannover

[reynoldsno1]

I finished 6FTS in 1973. The only streaming that went on was determined by your final position on the course. We were given the available OCU slots, and No.1 had first pick, and so on.
a Nimrod as a routine Nav. The Nimrod had two navigators, the more experienced or better qualified designated as 1st Nav. The duties of Tac Nav and Routine Nav were shared - often on the same sortie.

[Not Long Here]

207 Course at 6 FTS in 1975/1976. Twas the last Varsity Course. No streaming but you got a "Low Level Rec" or not in my case at the end of JPs. Thankfully ended up on Nimrods which was my niche in life, before finding another niche in RNZAF Capability.

Joined as a direct entrant Electronic Fitter (Ground Communications) in Feb 74 and just coming up for 50 years in uniform. Not many people thought I would live that long !!!

[Lordflasheart]

Vasco (Post #14) - has identified the apparent absence of RAF 'tactical' nav training between (roughly) 1969 and 1971.
"We were given no low level training whatsoever"

That cheese-hole was temporarily plugged by the Fleet Air Arm and jolly good fun we had doing it.

In the 1960s RN Observer training started on the Sea Prince, followed by about 60 hours 'jet famil' - speeding up on the Sea Venom before going to OFS - Vixen or Buccaneer.

One day a bunch of baby crab navs turned up (from Wings on the Dominie) and for a couple of years worth of 'jet famil' courses, we hurtled them around North Jockistan doing low level navs, shipping strikes, using the radio and radar, looking outside and pulling a bit of G. I like to think they enjoyed it as well as learning something useful. They were good material so perhaps they were streamed.

The down side was that there wasn't enough capacity so our own RN Observer studes had to go straight from the Sea Prince to the Buccaneer and Vixen OFS prima-donna hot-houses.

LFH