New 145’s rumoured to replace Puma in Cyprus and Brunei.

[NutLoose]

Looks like possibly Six, I don’t know what will happen with the supposed single type to replace Puma etc.

Possible new H145s for RAF

Sources in the United Kingdom expect the Ministry of Defence (MoD) to announce a single source acquisition soon for six Airbus H145 helicopters. These helicopters are to be fitted with SAR equipment and will replace the Puma HC2 helicopters in use at Cyprus and Brunei.

If this materializes it is a rather unexpected move since under the delayed New Medium Helicopter (NMH) programme (which was launched in March 2021), the MoD is looking for a single type to replace the Royal Air Force (RAF) Puma and Griffin fleet as well as the Army Air Corps (AAC) Bell 212 and AS365.

Due to cost cutting reasons, both the Bell 212 and Griffin helicopters have already been retired and their role has been temporary taken over by Puma HC2s. With the purchase of H145s to take over this role, the scope of the NMH programme seems at least to have been changed.

At the start of the programme, up to 44 new helicopters were to be purchased. Early 2023, this number seemed to be dropped to 25 to 35 examples. This new, lower number seems to make sense in the light of this potential purchase. The following types are on the short list for the NMH programme: Airbus H175M, Boeing MH-139A Grey Wolf, Leonardo AW149 and Lockheed-Martin (Sikorsky) S-70M Black Hawk




https://www.scramble.nl/military-news/possible-new-h145s-for-raf

..

[Marly Lite]

Next headline:

MoD buys helicopters for Cyprus and Brunei that are unsuitable for the role.

The ****(insert platform) is not capable of hovering on one engine in the climate involved; cannot actually winch a stretcher into the cabin; is unable to communicate on military frequencies; cannot navigate to anything other than pre-defined points; cannot carry a self defence suite so is unusable in deployed roles and army boots put dinks in the floor.

Other than that it’s been another success for the DE&S ‘unsuitable but cheap’ aquisition team, manned by civvies who’ve never flown a helicopter but did have a quick go on ‘Airwolf’ on their ZX Spectrum 40 years ago.

[chevvron]

As I recall, the 145 is about half the size of a Puma; it would be OK for the '212 and its predecessor the Wessex and would be perfect for replacing the A109 but a Puma it ain't.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

As I recall, the 145 is about half the size of a Puma; it would be OK for the '212 and its predecessor the Wessex and would be perfect for replacing the A109 but a Puma it ain't.
Not replacing the Puma though, it's replacing the 412/212 Cyprus/Brunei combo, which is temporarily being backfilled by Puma.
I'd be interested to see what the disposable load is for Brunei, however.
​​​​​​
​​​​

[Lucifer Morningstar]

I cannot speak to the 212 replacement for Brunei, but the 145 is definitely suited to replace the 412 in Cyprus. I double-toured on 84 (Wessex and 412) :) and I know the role as well as anyone. Neither the Wessex nor the 412 were Safe Single Engine on the vast majority of occasions, so the 145 is no different at all. We just made sure our pilots were initimately familiar with SSE, Flyway and Committed calls and procedures which was admittedly easier with ex RAF SAR guys to be sure - the current RAF pilots out-of-training are a shadow of their predeccessors sadly in terms of judgement and decision making, although that is a result of the MFTS system, not their fault. The 145 is clearly not as large as a Puma, but it is large enough for the role. It has around double the endurance of the Puma and a fraction of the operating costs. All new UK helicopter pilots are now trained on the H135 and it is a simple conversion (I did it in 1 sortie) to qualify on the H145, so similar are the checks and controls (although not identical).
I see this as a very positive move. The Blackhawk is surely the best bet for NMH, but it would be overkill for Cyprus. This means a cheap, reliable platform can fill the 84 Sqn role, and fewer of the far more expensive S70i are required for NMH as Cyprus and Brunei requirements will be removed from the mix, making Blackhawk a more viable option in the UKP 1.2 Billion NMH budget.
For once, a sensible decision from the MoD procurement dudes. :D

[Asturias56]

Well it seems to be operated in a, lot of places with similar climates to Brunei.

[Ken Scott]

I cannot speak to the 212 replacement for Brunei, but the 145 is definitely suited to replace the 412 in Cyprus. I double-toured on 84 (Wessex and 412) https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif and I know the role as well as anyone. Neither the Wessex nor the 412 were Safe Single Engine on the vast majority of occasions, so the 145 is no different at all. We just made sure our pilots were initimately familiar with SSE, Flyway and Committed calls and procedures which was admittedly easier with ex RAF SAR guys to be sure - the current RAF pilots out-of-training are a shadow of their predeccessors sadly in terms of judgement and decision making, although that is a result of the MFTS system, not their fault. The 145 is clearly not as large as a Puma, but it is large enough for the role. It has around double the endurance of the Puma and a fraction of the operating costs. All new UK helicopter pilots are now trained on the H135 and it is a simple conversion (I did it in 1 sortie) to qualify on the H145, so similar are the checks and controls (although not identical).
I see this as a very positive move. The Blackhawk is surely the best bet for NMH, but it would be overkill for Cyprus. This means a cheap, reliable platform can fill the 84 Sqn role, and fewer of the far more expensive S70i are required for NMH as Cyprus and Brunei requirements will be removed from the mix, making Blackhawk a more viable option in the UKP 1.2 Billion NMH budget.
For once, a sensible decision from the MoD procurement dudes. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_clap.gif

Lucifer Morningstar, you must know that a sensible and reasoned argument backed up by first-hand knowledge is against the rules and ethos of pprune…!

[Saintsman]

Nothing for Westlands then?

[212man]

Lucifer Morningstar, you must know that a sensible and reasoned argument backed up by first-hand knowledge is against the rules and ethos of pprune…!
he’s new here - he’ll learn!

[SASless]

The one thing it is not....is a combat helicopter and the US Military has been quite clear on that from day one.

That set off a huge debate about the wisdom of spending so much money for such little "combat aviation benefit".

The counter argument was it put into operation a class of helicopter that would fill the non-combat needs of the US Army and later other services and do so much more economically.

The truth of the debate is both sides are right so long as the (in the American version UH-72A or B) is not forced by need to be placed in a combat situation ever.

if that does happen then young folks are going be sent to war in a machine not fit for purpose and shall pay the price for bean counter's wisdom.

In a desparate situation the temptation to send those aircraft into places they should not be is what concerns a lot of people.

The question re the 145 replacing the 212/412/Puma in Brunei or Cyprus is a moot point as the 145 will do fine even with some of the known limitations.

Single engine OEI out of ground effect hover issues are not limited to the 145 as the other airframes have their own issues in that regard.

Budgets generally control aircraft choices more than other factors as the Funds available during any budget year determine what the real limitations are.


https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2021-10-airbus-helicopters-uh-72-lakota-fleet-surpasses-one-million-flight

[Myra Leese]

Lucifer,
l am going to call you on this one, the first 412 arrived in March 03 and I don't remember seeing you on the Sqn at that time let alone ever flying the 412 there! Of course you have 412 and 145 experience from later in life but not in Cyprus conditions. I do however agree with your reasoning having flown and tested both aircraft in the UK SAR role.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Lucifer,
l am going to call you on this one, the first 412 arrived in March 03 and I don't remember seeing you on the Sqn at that time let alone ever flying the 412 there! Of course you have 412 and 145 experience from later in life but not in Cyprus conditions. I do however agree with your reasoning having flown and tested both aircraft in the UK SAR role.

Hi Myra, oh I was there, and for long enough to know the 412 did not arrive in Mar 03 as the delivery was delayed and role was gapped by the Seaking OCU

[dagenham]

The one thing it is not....is a combat helicopter and the US Military has been quite clear on that from day one.


to be fair his highness operated civilian jet ranger , 205 and 212 in the royal Brunei regiment air wing for a fair few number of years from the 1970s as the only assets in Brunei at the time. British and us army didn’t seem to have an issue and used them widely.

[SASless]

Dag,

If you are trying to make a point of some kind....care to dress it up so we can figure out what it is please?

The vintage aircraft you mention came about before the US Military had a proper set of specifications for combat helicopters....with the first being the UH-60 Blackhawk which came about from the UTTAS Program which incorporated knowledge and experience gained from the use of those aircraft you mentioned during the Vietnam War (less perhaps the 212 which in military garb is the UH-1N.

The UH-72 was not designed or built to meet the stringent design requirements that led to the design of the UH-60 and is nothing more than a EC-145 with minor differences for use in permissive environments.

The 145 will do a good job in Cyprus and Brunei so long as it is limited to oprations much like any normal public transport or utility helicopter.



https://www.army.mil/article/239417/lakota_uh_72a_light_utility_helicopter

[Marly Lite]

Lucifer: agree with your first post, well authored. You are wrong about the arrival date of the 412 though, it was March 03. The SKOCU covered, roughly Jan-March (maybe april?)

Saintsman: The whole NMH piece was seen in some circles as a ‘ffs give westlands some work’ agenda. Unfortunately, if NMH is going to be a REAL Puma replacement then a military helicopter should be purchased, not a Leonardo machine painted green.

SASLESS: More on my wavelength. It always gripped my sh1t that 84 did not have a proper capability for military tasks, being so close to the area of current interest. The UK has to deploy other assets on a regular basis, it should get a grip and buy a proper machine, rather than wait a week for odiham’s (now dilapidated and over committed) assets to rock up after strewing themselves across europe.

Myra- correct. March 03.

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Lucifer: agree with your first post, well authored. You are wrong about the arrival date of the 412 though, it was March 03. The SKOCU covered, roughly Jan-March (maybe april?)

Saintsman: The whole NMH piece was seen in some circles as a ‘ffs give westlands some work’ agenda. Unfortunately, if NMH is going to be a REAL Puma replacement then a military helicopter should be purchased, not a Leonardo machine painted green.

SASLESS: More on my wavelength. It always gripped my sh1t that 84 did not have a proper capability for military tasks, being so close to the area of current interest. The UK has to deploy other assets on a regular basis, it should get a grip and buy a proper machine, rather than wait a week for odiham’s (now dilapidated and over committed) assets to rock up after strewing themselves across europe.

Myra- correct. March 03.

Nope, I captained the last Wessex shift in Mar 03 and not a Griffin in sight. Sorry.

[chevvron]

rather than wait a week for odiham’s (now dilapidated and over committed) assets to rock up after strewing themselves across europe.

Don't you mean Benson? Odiham has been totally Chinook for well over 20 years.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Don't you mean Benson? Odiham has been totally Chinook for well over 20 years.
I suspect his point is that if you had a capable military asset in Cyprus you wouldn't have to deploy Chinooks from Odiham across Europe to Cyprus - because it's almost always Chinooks that do that, not Puma.

[[email protected]]

There were plenty of Blackhawks in Cyprus over the years, US Army and USAF detachments resupplying embassies - a great aircraft but not much use if the crews are poorly trained and don't even have the basic skills for overwater hovering or basic tactical nouse.

In the 80s, a 3-ship would depart across the water on a weekly basis, not one of them winch equipped - just a wire ladder arrangement - and crewed by pilots whose though hovering over the water was a dark art requiring two pilots with the controls split between them. Then on arrival at their destination, they would sit in a racetrack pattern at 2-300' just off the coast (small arms threat band anyone?) while each went in, in turn, to complete the resupply.

All the gear and no idea was a phrase commonly heard. Having the right aircraft is important but at least as important is making sure your crews are up to the job.

Sadly nowadays with the poor training system in place, we will have neither.

[Marly Lite]

Nope, I captained the last Wessex shift in Mar 03 and not a Griffin in sight. Sorry.
April arrival at a push.

[Myra Leese]

Lucifer,

Living the high life in Canadaland has fogged your memory somewhat. The last flight of an 84 Sqn Wessex in Cyprus was flown on 31 Jan 03 with a 3 ship led by me followed by a singleton flypast with ensign flown by OC 84. The following day they were packed up and flown to Brize Norton in an AN 124. The very last 84 Sqn flight by an 84 Sqn pilot in a Wessex was on 20 Feb 03 when I landed as number 4 of a 4 ship at Shawbury. The Seakings had already taken over the standby in Jan 03 having been flown out of the port and landed at Akrotiri on 31 Dec 02 so you most definitely did not do the last shift in Mar 03 which is when the Griffin arrived!

Enough of the history lesson and thread drift, as someone who has flown the Griffin in Cyprus and the Jupiter in the maritime role I would say that it is suitable for the task which 84 Sqn fulfils. Lack of DAS is a red herring, it is not required for the role and none of the previous aircraft have had it. A major advantage the Jupiter/H145 has is training mode. If there is a doubt over SE performance use it during a dummy winch and you will soon know what the aircraft thinks. Stretcher winching was not carried out at 202 Sqn as it was not a customer requirement but buy the right stretcher and I'm sure there are enough people around who could resurrect the skill. Heat exhaustion could be an issue as the 145 has a lot of glass and the cockpit gets really warm in the UK never mind a Med summer.
I think the biggest limitation will not be the aircraft but who owns the risk and how much they will accept. Military flying is a risky endeavour but I think a lot of people higher up the chain have forgotten this and their appetite for owning it has wained.

[SASless]

I also recall when a Bell 412 from Air Log was doing the Cyrus/Lebanon Embassy thing....before it was rebranded by its owners and sent off to to Nigeria.

Crewed by civilians and somehow got the job done without any problems. I was to do the Ferry Flight but that got changed to where I picked it up on Accra then on to Lagos.

At times I do wonder how the RAF has managed following some turnover in staff.

[Lala Steady]

At times I do wonder how the RAF has managed following some turnover in staff. There is a random statement - care to explain what it actually means?

[Lala Steady]

Myra, does the 145 have a night overwater capability? I.e. autohover and transitions modes?

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Myra, does the 145 have a night overwater capability? I.e. autohover and transitions modes?

Autohover yes. It has a GTC (H) function that allows the pilot to either set a ground vector or ‘double tap’ for a hover. As for auto transition, no it does not, at least the RAF Jupiter does not - maybe it is an option?

[Lucifer Morningstar]

Lucifer,

Living the high life in Canadaland has fogged your memory somewhat. The last flight of an 84 Sqn Wessex in Cyprus was flown on 31 Jan 03 with a 3 ship led by me followed by a singleton flypast with ensign flown by OC 84. The following day they were packed up and flown to Brize Norton in an AN 124. The very last 84 Sqn flight by an 84 Sqn pilot in a Wessex was on 20 Feb 03 when I landed as number 4 of a 4 ship at Shawbury. The Seakings had already taken over the standby in Jan 03 having been flown out of the port and landed at Akrotiri on 31 Dec 02 so you most definitely did not do the last shift in Mar 03 which is when the Griffin arrived!

Enough of the history lesson and thread drift, as someone who has flown the Griffin in Cyprus and the Jupiter in the maritime role I would say that it is suitable for the task which 84 Sqn fulfils. Lack of DAS is a red herring, it is not required for the role and none of the previous aircraft have had it. A major advantage the Jupiter/H145 has is training mode. If there is a doubt over SE performance use it during a dummy winch and you will soon know what the aircraft thinks. Stretcher winching was not carried out at 202 Sqn as it was not a customer requirement but buy the right stretcher and I'm sure there are enough people around who could resurrect the skill. Heat exhaustion could be an issue as the 145 has a lot of glass and the cockpit gets really warm in the UK never mind a Med summer.
I think the biggest limitation will not be the aircraft but who owns the risk and how much they will accept. Military flying is a risky endeavour but I think a lot of people higher up the chain have forgotten this and their appetite for owning it has wained.

The 3 ship was followed by a role demo, I guess you forgot. When OC 84 shutdown on the last day, the aircraft were transferred at that moment to RAF disposals. You could not have flown an 84 Sqn Wessex into Shawbury, because it didn’t have any as they had already been removed from the Sqn inventory. Sorry to be pedantic but you seem a stickler for the facts.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

The 3 ship was followed by a role demo, I guess you forgot. When OC 84 shutdown on the last day, the aircraft were transferred at that moment to RAF disposals. You could not have flown an 84 Sqn Wessex into Shawbury, because it didn’t have any as they had already been removed from the Sqn inventory. Sorry to be pedantic but you seem a stickler for the facts.


​​​​​​Folks,

Can I recommend that we take that conversation offline and maybe stick to the topic at hand? Appreciate it's personal for both of you....

[[email protected]]

Autohover yes. It has a GTC (H) function that allows the pilot to either set a ground vector or ‘double tap’ for a hover. As for auto transition, no it does not, at least the RAF Jupiter does not - maybe it is an option? So it would seem that the Jupiter is hardly more capable than the Wessex or the 412 that preceded it, SAR modes on the AFCS were what was lacking on both aircraft and for £145 million I'd expect an aircraft that has SAR as part of its role there to have that fitted.

[Myra Leese]

Crab,

The Sqn's role has been considerably diluted from what you remember. Night decks had already been withdrawn by the time I left in 05 and I never got to hover the Griffin once over water at night, we were barely allowed to fly a night sit on the Southern cliffs. Ironically, the 412 EP delivered by Bell was originally a full glass 4 axis digital aircraft with transition and auto hover but the RAF didn't want such a jump in capability and so asked FBH to remove it and turn it back to clockwork! As you well know typical Cyprus weather is fairly benign so an all weather aircraft with auto transition and hover would be overkill and too expensive. Sometimes the simple solution really can be the best.

[[email protected]]

Myra, but that is a bloody expensive simple solution!

I know that the Cypriots have their own capable SAR aircraft so the number of jobs that 84 would be called out on is greatly limited - but what about military ejections? Would they leave that to Cyprus SAR?

Whatever the likelihood of using SAR modes on an aircraft is, they will be based on an island in the Med so why not have them as standard?

[trim it out]

Myra, but that is a bloody expensive simple solution!

I know that the Cypriots have their own capable SAR aircraft so the number of jobs that 84 would be called out on is greatly limited - but what about military ejections? Would they leave that to Cyprus SAR?

Whatever the likelihood of using SAR modes on an aircraft is, they will be based on an island in the Med so why not have them as standard?
Possibly an MoU? There was one in Brunei between RBAF, BSP and BFB from memory which covered a few scenarios, downbird, single aircraft ops etc.

[212man]

Possibly an MoU? There was one in Brunei between RBAF, BSP and BFB from memory which covered a few scenarios, downbird, single aircraft ops etc.
Must have been a long time ago - BSP hasn't had any winching capability since around 1999!

[trim it out]

Must have been a long time ago - BSP hasn't had any winching capability since around 1999!
Are you sure?

https://www.bsp.com.bn/main/media-centre/view-all/23

[212man]

Are you sure?

https://www.bsp.com.bn/main/media-centre/view-all/23
my apologies - total brain fart! I was even instrumental in the selection of the project manager. Yes, the SAR capability started in 2013 just after I left. Prior to around 1999 there was a lim-SAR capability with the 61s

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Having been the Loan Service SAR examiner with RBrAF/ATUDB at the tail-end of the last century, I can certainly remember there being a dire need for some kind of credible heli SAR system in-country. On one occasion an AAC crew from Seria took a cross-border task near KK to find/pick up missing walkers, on at least one other they did a deck-winching task. I was the standby SAR Capt for both, and in each case the Brunei RCC turned the task down without even consulting the "op" part of the Air Force (I only heard about them when arriving at work the following day(s)). I use the term "op" in its loosest sense; ATUDB were fine for birthday flypasts and OK-ish for jungle resupp but you wouldn't want've had to rely on them for anything serious. Very frustrating for the 2, Hawk-trained, supremely competent operators they had on strength, one of whom wasn't even allowed to retire at the end of his engagement(!) - he had planned to join RBA but was told if he left the Air Force he would never work anywhere again. You couldn't make it up.

I believe someone who used to post on here as "Rottweiler" went out to run the BSP SAR flight.

[chopper2004]

https://des.mod.uk/122m-contract-sees-uks-fleet-of-airbus-h145s-expanded-with-six-procured-for-overseas-duties/?portfolioCats=1235%2C78%2C735%2C69%2C734

'Defence Equipment & Support has awarded a £122m contract for six Airbus H145 helicopters to provide aviation support for UK troops in Brunei and the island of Cyprus.

In November 2023 the MOD announced its intention to procure the Airbus H145s through the release of a Voluntary Transparency Notification.

The Airbus H145 is familiar to Defence as it is already used as part of the UK Military Flying Training System to train helicopter aircrew in maritime, mountain and search and rescue techniques.

The additional helicopters will be used to support UK troops conducting jungle training in Brunei, including essential medical evacuation. The aircraft based in the Sovereign Base Areas (SBAs) on Cyprus will support UK training and military exercises (including joint UK/Republic of Cyprus activities) along with emergency response and aerial firefighting duties.
cheers

[minigundiplomat]

Another AH buy, no tender. Easy bucks!!!!

Or is this a sop because the 149 was selected as NMH before the requirements were written?

[DuckDodgers]

Another AH buy, no tender. Easy bucks!!!!

Or is this a sop because the 149 was selected as NMH before the requirements were written?

I’d say this is a sign and portent. Given the NMH budget has been reduced significantly to only 9 figures, along with the scoring associated with number of airframes offered, I suspect even Leonardo may struggle. So, my forecast, assuming Labour don’t defer a decision or delete the programme is it’ll be another £950M+ to Airbus for a 145/175 combo.