Lack of Qantas pilots - Route cut from schedule.

[Icarus2001]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-10/qantas-scraps-exmouth-melbourne-direct-flights-2024/103084892

So not Covid, not Putin, not Hamas but lack of pilots. If only there was a solution.

Qantas spokesman... "With a number of our 737 pilots set to begin transitioning to our new Airbus A321XLRs ahead of their expected arrival at the end of next year, we've had to slightly revise our B737 network plans for 2024," the spokesperson said.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

To be fair, it was only a trial. If you have to consolidate routes, then perhaps the ones you weren't really that sure of in the first place are the first to go?

[chimbu warrior]

“The airline is forced to make further reductions to its regional network as the major carriers, particularly the Rex Group, continued their relentless pillaging of Qantas’s pilot group,” a company statement said.

​​​​​​​Fixed it for you.

[Eaglerocker]

Is the A321 already meant to arrive next year? its still not even certified yet..

[aussieflyboy]

It was supposed to be taken over by the A220 in 2024 however a majority of next years deliveries have now been delayed 6+ months. E-Jets are struggling with crew and don’t (yet) have a MEL base.

[Australopithecus]

Both the A220 and 321XLR are delayed. A321XLR Certification was an issue, now its engine problems on the existing fleet. The fuel tank issue that delayed certification cost 2,500 kgs to fix, so that sounds like an hour less range.

I was speaking with customer service staff in MEL a couple of weeks ago and they revealed that they have been told that most flights there will eventually be A220s.

in other news, QF is going to mod the oldest 737 airframes* to install fuel tank nitrogen inerting, which is not required until 2026. So we are going to have those pieces of —— for a while yet.

*.except the first two, according to the engineer that was laughing/crying about it.

[davidclarke]

I’m really suprised that QF have gone with the PW engine. The PW engine has been problematic worldwide. JQ are operating the CFM engine on their neos and have not had the problems that the pratts have. Wouldn’t commonality and reliability win the day?

[SIUYA]

Wouldn’t commonality and reliability win the day?

Far too sensible for the morons (mis)managing things at QF, and there was probably a much smaller bonus involved with selecting CFM rather than PW.

[neville_nobody]

Far too sensible for the morons (mis)managing things at QF, and there was probably a much smaller bonus involved with selecting CFM rather than PW.

Either that or someone got a nice little kick back for going with the alternative. All in the name of competition of course we don’t want to “limit” ourselves to one supplier even though we run the risk of grounding our fleet because that has zero bearing on my bonus.

[framer]

Surprised about the Nitrogen inserting. How many airframes get around without it?

[dejapoo]

Surprised about the Nitrogen inserting. How many airframes get around without it?

about 40… TWA theatrics says the antivaxers

[BravoSierraLima]

I’m really suprised that QF have gone with the PW engine. The PW engine has been problematic worldwide. JQ are operating the CFM engine on their neos and have not had the problems that the pratts have. Wouldn’t commonality and reliability win the day?

Unlike the A320 family, the A220 family only comes with PW engines, so commonality between those two types appears to be what QF Group want. The red-tail narrowbody order is up to 134 aircraft, so we can draw our own conclusions about the mix of A32X and A22X. With plenty of life left in a big part of the B737 fleet, that and the fuel tank inerting mentioned in this thread gives QF Group time to wait for Airbus to develop and certify a stretched version of the A220-300.

The woeful NJS pilot EA doesn't expire until 2026, so the question of being able to crew the A220 once the delivery frequency increases is still largely unanswered.

[Swept-Wing]

Wouldn’t commonality and reliability win the day?

Not unusual for an airline to spread its investments across multiple manufactures.
Prevents a total fleet grounding should there be an issue with one manufactures product.

[ExtraShot]

Has Anyone heard/confirm scuttlebutt that the next A380 due back is now being withheld from return to service, due an inability to release crew from other fleets for training, due crew shortages?

[Deano969]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-10/qantas-scraps-exmouth-melbourne-direct-flights-2024/103084892

So not Covid, not Putin, not Hamas but lack of pilots. If only there was a solution.

So here's the thing
Does a 738 driver forget how to drive one when getting certified on a 320?
After everything that's gone down at QF recently why couldn't they just be honest and release a statement like

Qantas will be cancelling its direct service between Melbourne and Learmouth / Exmouth
The reason for our decision are as follows
We learned that not everyone wants a one week holiday so a once a week service was kinda hard to sell
We also learned that people would prefer to transit via Perth rather than pay twice as much for the convenience of a direct flight
We really thought that we could gouge people with this direct connection but boy oh boy were we surprised
We seem to get away with charging a bomb on Port Headland direct to Brisbane once a week, like 30% more than via Perth
So as we can't make a killing on this route we may just leave to Bonza to have a crack at 1/4 the airfare
We still can't see how they do it, what with their cheapy prices connecting secondary towns, its totally got our number crunchers stumped

[morno]

So here's the thing
Does a 738 driver forget how to drive one when getting certified on a 320?

Pilots can’t fly multiple fleets, especially when they are significantly different (ie. 737 vs A320). The only exception to this is things like the A330/350 when they get them. They’re considered close enough (arguable) that they can run it as a single fleet type. They’re also the same type rating.

[Icarus2001]

Pilots can’t fly multiple fleets, especially when they are significantly different Do you have a reference for that?

[Duck Pilot]

Do you have a reference for that?

CASA would have some requirement squirrelled away in the bows of a regulation or a stupid MOS, that is extremely difficult to find. Probably an ATPL airliaw question🤬🤬 these days.

Correct me if I’m wrong, however Qantas had a few incidents not long after they introduced the Q400 and had pilots flying all variants, that resulted in quite a few operational incidents, over speeds and procedural excursions.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Has Anyone heard/confirm scuttlebutt that the next A380 due back is now being withheld from return to service, due an inability to release crew from other fleets for training, due crew shortages?

I doubt the left hand and right hand in that scenario would even be talking.. so I reckon that’s a BS rumour.

[morno]

Do you have a reference for that?

I don’t know of a particular law, but let’s look at it from a safety perspective. Do you think it’s very smart? And find me an airline in Australia where you fly more than one type.

[Deano969]

I don’t know of a particular law, but let’s look at it from a safety perspective. Do you think it’s very smart? And find me an airline in Australia where you fly more than one type.
I never said on a permanent or ongoing basis
More so during the transition
Ie. currently flying 738 but getting certified on a 320 you can for a period be flying either

[ScepticalOptomist]

I never said on a permanent or ongoing basis
More so during the transition
Ie. currently flying 738 but getting certified on a 320 you can for a period be flying either

In practice it doesn’t work out like that.

[morno]

As ScepticalOptemist said, it doesn’t work like that. While they’re training for the new type, when do you expect them to be able to fit in line flying on the original type? And then in a perfect world, they will commence flying straight away on the new type. So no, they can’t just fly a 737 when they’re training on an A321.

[InZed]

Do you have a reference for that?

History tells us that this has been done before…

QLink did a trial in ~2014 on the Q200, Q300 & Q400 fleets, and found that it was too much work. Different type ratings means meeting the CASA simulator/exam requirements just like everyone else. So two sims per year for the Q200/300 and two sims per year for the Q400. The extra study and training meant that the unions (understandably) wanted more money.

VARA tried this with the AT5 and AT6 fleets with the same result as above.

AirNZ did this also with the down trained 777 crew into the 787, with a handful remaining current on both. But once again, four sims per year. Got vetoed quickly.

But with all these failures, it actually wouldn’t surprise me for (mis)management to try this again with QF 737 pilots to see how it (doesn’t) work. :ugh:

[framer]

I never said on a permanent or ongoing basis
More so during the transition
Ie. currently flying 738 but getting certified on a 320 you can for a period be flying either
I reckon it would be less than a month before it caused an incident that made the morning herald.

[maggot]

History tells us that this has been done before…

QLink did a trial in ~2014 on the Q200, Q300 & Q400 fleets, and found that it was too much work. Different type ratings means meeting the CASA simulator/exam requirements just like everyone else. So two sims per year for the Q200/300 and two sims per year for the Q400. The extra study and training meant that the unions (understandably) wanted more money.

VARA tried this with the AT5 and AT6 fleets with the same result as above.

AirNZ did this also with the down trained 777 crew into the 787, with a handful remaining current on both. But once again, four sims per year. Got vetoed quickly.

But with all these failures, it actually wouldn’t surprise me for (mis)management to try this again with QF 737 pilots to see how it (doesn’t) work. :ugh:

And they're all kinda similar types, let alone 737 and a321 at the same time.

Possible? Sure. Workable and realistic? Hmmm

The 734->738 was different enough and workable but not really ideal particularly as the classic fleet reduced.

[amc890]

AirNZ did this also with the down trained 777 crew into the 787, with a handful remaining current on both. But once again, four sims per year. Got vetoed quickly.

[/QUOTE]

Incorrect, although individuals could opt out and ANZ do 4 days of sims per year anyway.

[Australopithecus]

A point only briefly raised is that training on a new type is a full-time job. Lots of study as airlines aren’t in the business of spoon-feeding lessons to trainees.

Also, for the obviously uninitiated, Boeing and Airbus design philosophy and features are different. Those differences can be quite subtle but very significant.

I have a lot of types on my licences, but am only ever somewhat expert on my current one.

[Eaglerocker]

when would they start training for the A321? would they put 737 crew on straight away? or more likely to offer new hires it day 1 if they have 320 experience to get the ball rolling

[43Inches]

I never said on a permanent or ongoing basis
More so during the transition
Ie. currently flying 738 but getting certified on a 320 you can for a period be flying either

I don't think any larger jet operator would have cross crewed types unless they are specifically allowed under the type rating. Different manufacturers would be a big no no. You get taken off one fleet when you commence training for the next. As said above, incidents and accidents would follow. J* almost lost an A320 because of differences and misunderstandings, they were very lucky it didn't end up like the emirates 777 accident or worse. The Dash-8 type rating allowed cross crewing of all Dash-8 models, with training requirements for differences during cyclics if it's done, but it was found out very quickly that the Q-400 was a very different machine to the earlier ones so many airlines split the fleets. And the Q400 was designed to be similar to the older models, Airbus and Boeings are as far apart as their headquarters.

PS Another reason for split fleets is the question of pay, you will either be paying someone flying a Dash 300, Q400 pay (pilots push) or paying somebody flying a Q400, 300 pay (company push), it all gets too hard after a while.

[Framcicles]

So here's the thing
Does a 738 driver forget how to drive one when getting certified on a 320?
After everything that's gone down at QF recently why couldn't they just be honest and release a statement like

Qantas will be cancelling its direct service between Melbourne and Learmouth / Exmouth
The reason for our decision are as follows
We learned that not everyone wants a one week holiday so a once a week service was kinda hard to sell
We also learned that people would prefer to transit via Perth rather than pay twice as much for the convenience of a direct flight
We really thought that we could gouge people with this direct connection but boy oh boy were we surprised
We seem to get away with charging a bomb on Port Headland direct to Brisbane once a week, like 30% more than via Perth
So as we can't make a killing on this route we may just leave to Bonza to have a crack at 1/4 the airfare
We still can't see how they do it, what with their cheapy prices connecting secondary towns, its totally got our number crunchers stumped


It was a twice a week service (Thurs & Sun), Return tickets were usually around the $800-$900 economy mark. Tickets return PER-LEA were usually around $600-$700 during the high season this year before you add on the extra flight to Perth. Took the route about 4 times this year and it always felt around %75 full.

[Lookleft]

J* almost lost an A320 because of differences and misunderstandings, they were very lucky it didn't end up like the emirates 777 accident or worse.

Have you got a bit more meat on that bone? Was it a new Captain coming off the 787 and where did it allegedly happen?

[Global Aviator]

Have you got a bit more meat on that bone? Was it a new Captain coming off the 787 and where did it allegedly happen?

I reckon he’s talking about the JQ TOGA tap incident at Melbourne??? Musta been 10 years ago? Very vague memory of it!

[Icarus2001]

I don't think any larger jet operator would have cross crewed types unless they are specifically allowed under the type rating. Different manufacturers would be a big no no.

Well you would be wrong. We are not talking about usual practice but whether it is precluded under any rules.

[43Inches]

Well you would be wrong. We are not talking about usual practice but whether it is precluded under any rules.

I don't mean large jets, I meant large operators. There were allowances for crosscrewing certain types like 757/767 and certain Airbusses can be crosscrewed. But I havn't heard of Boeing/Airbus crosscrewing in a major airline, yet.

[Deano969]

It was a twice a week service (Thurs & Sun), Return tickets were usually around the $800-$900 economy mark. Tickets return PER-LEA were usually around $600-$700 during the high season this year before you add on the extra flight to Perth. Took the route about 4 times this year and it always felt around %75 full.

Exactly, well kind of
Tickets were around $800-$900 each way
You could get them via Perth for around $600-$650

[Icarus2001]

But I havn't heard of Boeing/Airbus crosscrewing in a major airline, yet. Perhaps you have not heard of it but that does not mean it does not occur or not permissible under regulations.

[Lookleft]

I reckon he’s talking about the JQ TOGA tap incident at Melbourne??? Musta been 10 years ago? Very vague memory of it!

If that is what he is talking about then it had nothing to do with coming off another type! It had a lot to do with not understanding modes (common to Boeing and Airbus). If it is something else I would really like to know the circumstances as I would want to know what someone coming off a 787 could do on an Airbus that could cause a near catastrophe.

The TOGA tap incident was, hard to believe, 16 years ago.

[43Inches]

Perhaps you have not heard of it but that does not mean it does not occur or not permissible under regulations.

Can we have an example of such things happening? Like a large operator in recent times that has cross crewed Boeing/Airbus fleets. That is one pilot flying both types alternating regularly during a roster.

I'm pretty sure most agencies regulating airlined have to approve procedures for cross crewing, for instance Air India has just won approval to cross crew 777/787, but there's so far nothing saying that will extend to airbus types.

[Icarus2001]

No you can’t as it will reveal two companies I have worked for. I can tell you it was isolated incidents not regular procedure but it was done and is legal. No it is not a good idea but in a pinch it can be done.

[GA Driver]

I’m really suprised that QF have gone with the PW engine. The PW engine has been problematic worldwide. JQ are operating the CFM engine on their neos and have not had the problems that the pratts have. Wouldn’t commonality and reliability win the day?

JQ also getting PW for the XLR. Came directly from engineers. According to them, no GE engine available (at least at the time of order.) So 4 engine types from 3 different manufacturers. :rolleyes:

[dr dre]

I’m really suprised that QF have gone with the PW engine. The PW engine has been problematic worldwide. JQ are operating the CFM engine on their neos and have not had the problems that the pratts have. Wouldn’t commonality and reliability win the day?

From what I understand the issue with the P&W GTF engine is the existing engines that haven’t been upgraded to the “Block D” modification”. It’ll be several years before all existing GTF engines will be upgraded to this standard.

One would assume all future new delivered engines will be built to this standard from the start, preventing the reliability issues seen at the moment.

[Icarus2001]

So 4 engine types from 3 different manufacturers. Oh dear.

[AQIS Boigu]

I reckon he’s talking about the JQ TOGA tap incident at Melbourne??? Musta been 10 years ago? Very vague memory of it!

Going down the ILS with max continuous power - was that the one?!

[Australopithecus]

Regarding different engine types, QF does not keep any spares of any engine anyway, so its not like there’s an inventory issue. Different engineering endorsements and tooling, yes.