ATR 72 Royal Maroc at Valência...Oppsss

[JanetFlight]

Wowwwwww...that NLG really suffered a lot 🙄

https://streamable.com/thexyt

https://streamable.com/thexyt

[UV]

Another FO landing?!

[sycamore]

Former camel driver....

[ATC Watcher]

Former camel driver....
Sure ,no western educated pilot would ever be caught doing this :rolleyes:

[FUMR]

Another FO landing?!

Don't be too sure!

[flynerd]

Surely just a standard three touch-and-go consecutive events.

[Loose rivets]

I was flying an ATR with a well educated FO, that when phoning home, sang in a voice from a different universe. His fingers danced on the FMC and generally he seemed proficient. However, one day, at the last moments of an approach, the concrete came at me as though the planet had exploded. I grabbed the yoke and pulled. All three points landed half an inch under the surface. So hard to explain.

[josephfeatherweight]

Landing currency - complete - good to go for another 90 days.

[punkalouver]

I was flying an ATR with a well educated FO, that when phoning home, sang in a voice from a different universe. His fingers danced on the FMC and generally he seemed proficient. However, one day, at the last moments of an approach, the concrete came at me as though the planet had exploded. I grabbed the yoke and pulled. All three points landed half an inch under the surface. So hard to explain.

Power is your friend in such a situation. Look how fast things improved once added in the video. Instinct is control column only.

[mavisbacon]

Many many years ago I worked for a large central England flight training school. I was asked to come in on the weekend to finish off a couple of students because they were short of hours and their type rating training was starting on the Monday. I duly complied, but on the return approach was asked by the student to take the landing because he wasn’t happy landing with a crosswind. This I did (effortlessly) but was left thinking hmm, passed all his training, passed all his tests, got a job with major airline but errr can’t fly for a toffee!
Never forgotten that, stayed with me ever since.

[barry lloyd]

The link no longer works

[Clay_T]

The link no longer works
dgohVydaJaw

[barry lloyd]

Thanks for that

[DIBO]

Harsh times for ATR's it seems.
Same country, different airport, different operator
https://youtu.be/-j8wm6draWk

[JanetFlight]

Harsh times for ATR's it seems.
Same country, different airport, different operator
https://youtu.be/-j8wm6draWk


Jesus Christ...that last one was nasty...what happened really there!!???

[VH-MLE]

"what happened really there!!???"

The pilots turned into passengers, that's what happened both there & in the Royal Air Maroc case above...

[treadigraph]

Jesus Christ...that last one was nasty...what happened really there!!???
The last bounce was so high, it went out of shot...

[Jhieminga]

Many many years ago I worked for a large central England flight training school. I was asked to come in on the weekend to finish off a couple of students because they were short of hours and their type rating training was starting on the Monday. I duly complied, but on the return approach was asked by the student to take the landing because he wasn’t happy landing with a crosswind. This I did (effortlessly) but was left thinking hmm, passed all his training, passed all his tests, got a job with major airline but errr can’t fly for a toffee!
Never forgotten that, stayed with me ever since.
Reminds me of a similar situation I found myself in. The FTO I worked for sometimes picked some of their own students straight after they finished the integrated course, sent them off on a FI course and hired them. I had to do a checkout on the FTO's smaller trainer with them and one of them just couldn't do a crosswind landing without crabbing the wheels all over the runway. I could only sign off on a 'no crosswind' instructor, but the CFI decided it was a confidence thing that should improve by itself. Said instructor kept instructing and ended up in an airliner, so I guess (hope) that the problem did indeed resolve itself.

[Pilot DAR]

After seeing this type of event beginning to develop while I was type training pilots, I developed a training technique to prevent this. I would pre brief that I would talk the trainee through the flare. I would brief that I would be using one of only two words, or, we'd be going around. They were to do as I spoke in very small increments, and immediately but gently change to the other action as I spoke it. The words are "pull" and "pause". So, as the flare begun, I would speak: "pull, pull, pull, pull, pause, pause, pull, pull, pause, pull pull...." until the hull (or main wheels) touched. I never raised my voice, nor made it sound urgent (that would have been a go around already, if I let it get that far out of hand). Doing this showed the trainee that "push" is never a part of a good landing in a tricycle wheel gear or hull type airplane. Once the trainee learned that "pause" while in the flare is an okay thing to do, push to overcome pulling too much was no longer needed, and landings became acceptable.

Any training pilot who allows a trainee pilot to push in the flare is doing the trainee a dis service in learning.

[Jhieminga]

I'm going to nick that instruction technique, thanks! ;)

[runawayedge]

As an SLF well familiar with ACE and ATRs I have noticed over the years that ATR operators seem to have scant regard for the touchdown zone at ACE when landing 03 as turn off is well down the runway. Were they carrying a little too much speed, seems he attempted to flare too high over the TZ, followed by a dirty dive, then ended up wheelbarrowing? The flare in a 72 can be tricky as there is a lot of fuselage aft of the mainwheels, it doesn't take much to tail strike. A go-around however is a must following large bounce. What was the thinking then after the large bounce, instead of a go-around a large rudder and aileron input followed by yet another dirty dive just shy of the TZ at the other end. Had the application of power been delayed another second this could have ended very differently. There was an incident in SNN some years ago where an ATR was written off following a nosewheel first touchdown where the nosewheel sheared, went around then landed without nosegear and ended up off the runway. When did this Canaryfly go-around happen, I can only see the last week on Flightradar and the aircraft flew every day. Was the aircraft withdrawn from service for a nosegear inspection, was there an FDR download to establish the G force on the nosegear?

[DaveReidUK]

When did this Canaryfly go-around happen, I can only see the last week on Flightradar and the aircraft flew every day.

Top LH corner of the video screen has the date & time.

[JanetFlight]

Well...something really weird with our lovely ATR 72...after the infamous close calls with both Royal Maroc and Canaryfly, now its time with this nasty TS by AZUL...Flaming et al...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRrIZNWlEq0

[treadigraph]

Seems to miss le moment critique by cutting to a slow motion zoom shot but does that look like quite a lot of sink just before impact? Certainly no expert but seemed to have plenty of speed in hand as it came over the fence.

[Trossie]

The last bounce was so high, it went out of shot...
I won't take that one seriously...!!!

Poor basic training. People are being taught to 'operate', not to fly.

I refer to this on Jet Blast recently:
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x557/simulators_9725dfe8fd4896c74aa713cd3b499fd53bac8e9c.jpg

[treadigraph]

I won't take that one seriously...!!!


I'd be mortified if you had! :ok:

[Uplinker]

Flying much too fast on approach. The "only way" to get the thing down is to pitch down to the extent that the nose-wheel lands first. (Captain/PM should have called 'speed').

A turbo-prop is many new pilot's first commercial type, before which the biggest thing they flew was a Warrior or Seneca equivalent.

Brand new pilots - even type rated ones - don't always appreciate quite how important accurate speed is, and training can be very truncated. In the simulator there is usually no significant crosswind, or indeed any significant wind or turbulence. The only actual flying in the real aircraft is the three landings, performed empty on a reasonable weather day, followed by line training. So for many pilots, the first experience of real world conditions is this sort of thing, where they have to learn and make mistakes on line.

It's a bit like like new car drivers passing their test having had no instruction or driving experience on motorways, and then attempting to join a motorway and understand the lane discipline etc. for the first time ever.

I remember back in the day my turbo-prop instructor telling me to 'follow him through' on the controls to learn the subtleties of handling the flare, and cross-wind landings. Very useful.

This Captain should have corrected this approach before the flare.

[DaveReidUK]

That tailstrike certainly sparked my interest.

[Lake1952]

dgohVydaJaw

I must admit doing something nearly identical... in 1973 on my second solo flight, in a Cessna 150!

[Loose rivets]

Power is your friend in such a situation.

There wasn't remotely that kind of timescale. I had positive g on in about half a second. BS? Maybe.

[Mr Albert Ross]

I was flying an ATR ... So hard to explain.Does this explain the origins of the name Loose rivets?

[treadigraph]

Here's the Azul incident without the close up interference, starting at 41 seconds in:

https://youtu.be/-pVxIN-_fI4?si=GV0FKraC8C3YUtJq&t=41

[punkalouver]

Power is your friend in such a situation. Look how fast things improved once added in the video. Instinct is control column only.
I agree. He flared high, levelled off. The speed decreased and it dropped in. One needs to be ready for immediate power in such a situation, probably more so with aircraft susceptible to tailstikes(which the -72 is). Power to reduce the rate of descent or go-around. From memory, we had a pitch call at a certain nose-up attitude in the flare on this type and one got quite close to it for a normal flare.

[pkormann]

The AD's tail strike was presumably by a long time A330 FO who just left seated to the ATR

[VH_WTF]

Q from a non ATR driver- do they have any untoward handling quirks in the flare? Or is it more experience(or lack thereof) related as Uplinker mentioned above?

[Pilot DAR]

do they have any untoward handling quirks in the flare?

'Never flown an ATR, but in general, civil airplanes do not get certified if they exhibit "quirks" in handling, particularly in the flare. The standard for certification will ave wording to the effect "must not require unusual pilot skill or attention". So, I hope that the answer to your question from an ATR pilot would be "no.".

[condor17]

Maybe , With tongue in cheek ..Perhaps under stress , they used the 'reverted to previous type' phenomena .
Or ' Old habits Die Hard ' .......PA28 ..How not to video , good watching for students ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1fFrEuuMF8

A bit , there but for the grace of god , after 4 very happy years of UK Highlands and Islands flying .

rgds condor

[punkalouver]

'Never flown an ATR, but in general, civil airplanes do not get certified if they exhibit "quirks" in handling, particularly in the flare. The standard for certification will ave wording to the effect "must not require unusual pilot skill or attention". So, I hope that the answer to your question from an ATR pilot would be "no.".

I have flown the 42. It handles just fine(although it took a bit of getting used to for crosswind ops as there is no direct link from the rudder pedals to nosewheel steering leading to initial over-control). Also typed on the 72 and no issues noted but watch the pitch to avoid a tailstrike. I suspect poor handling by the pilot. After the videos of these incidents, I now see what was the likely scenario for the American Eagle -72 crash in San Juan.

By the way, I love Hotel Mode for remote strip ops.

[NoelEvans]

... Or is it more experience(or lack thereof) related as Uplinker mentioned above?

...Perhaps under stress , they used the 'reverted to previous type' phenomena .
Or ' Old habits Die Hard ' .......PA28 ..How not to video , good watching for students ...Poor basic training is so often the problem. Do not push forward when landing a tricycle (nose-wheel) undercarriage aeroplane. Full Stop.

In some training organisations there is far, far too much 'rush' to get onto more 'attractive' aspects of training that plodding away at getting the basics right at early stages gets missed. And then later that lack of understanding and ability comes back to bite, like that PA28 and like that ATR.

Decades ago I read an article in a GA flying magazine that said that there are now a greater percentage of nose-wheel related landing incidents since tricycle undercarriage aeroplanes became the norm than there were ground-loop or prop-strike incidents on tail-wheel aeroplanes when they were the norm. You had to be taught properly on a taildragger, while there is often too much "that will do" on a nose-wheel aeroplane.

It is not just landings that are not being taught well enough. Stalls are also a problem. Which can lead to 'experienced' airline pilots not recognising a full stall...

[Pilot DAR]

^^^ This ^^^

[RichardJones]

Many many years ago I worked for a large central England flight training school. I was asked to come in on the weekend to finish off a couple of students because they were short of hours and their type rating training was starting on the Monday. I duly complied, but on the return approach was asked by the student to take the landing because he wasn’t happy landing with a crosswind. This I did (effortlessly) but was left thinking hmm, passed all his training, passed all his tests, got a job with major airline but errr can’t fly for a toffee!
Never forgotten that, stayed with me ever since.

The situation hasn't improved, from my observation. Not the students fault, as he/she has probably never been taught. Hasn't been taught as there was probably no one to teach them.

[421dog]

Stabilized approach, look at the far end of the runway and hold it off until it stops flying…
Flare or not, that’s how you avoid bending them. That guy was in a hurry and planted the aircraft in an attempt to pervert the process.

[Loose rivets]

I'd spent quite a while on the 42 when I got a message to appear in NCL for a stint on the 72. I felt more important on the 72 so thought it'd be fun.

STN to NCL I'd got top brass on board. In fact, I think about 1/3 of the flight was company VIPs or investors. I'd got about 10 hours on the 72 in the 'retirement job' of mine so I'd show 'em how to land a plane.

I'd been warned. If you touch the throttles just before touching down, the wheels will fall off. It was in the back of my mind somewhere. Speed perfect, not a ripple in the air. Don't raise the nose too much, hold it, hold it, move throttles back a micro-tad, NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. That's what you're NOT supposed to do. I caught it with a teenzy bit of nose up. The wheels kissed the runway for 12" and then stayed about 1" above the concrete . . . courtesy of down-hillness . . . for ages and ages and ages and more ages. I knew that if I did anything the wings and the wheels would fall off. So I didn't. The aircraft must stop flying eventually, it says so in the book of planes. But when? Finally the wheels peeeeeped for their second arrival. So gentle was the sound that it took the rumble of rotation to convince me we were on the ground. Oddly, we made the planned turn off with ease and taxied maintaining a legal speed.

Someone from the office took delight in calculating the distance between landings.

[fdr]

I'd spent quite a while on the 42 when I got a message to appear in NCL for a stint on the 72. I felt more important on the 72 so thought it'd be fun.

.
Someone from the office took delight in calculating the distance between landings.

Sometimes, the data is entertaining, sometimes, just depressing. Your parable on the pleasures of the ATR 72 would have been enjoyable analysis. when I got dragged into accident investigation last time, it was one thing to be looking at accident data, and it was quite something else to be looking at the day to day run of the mill variations on theme that happen all the time, as in the QAR programs. It was a never ending fight to stop the bureaucratic response that an obvious change in conditions that occur every day is somewhat different to someone busting into the circuit at over 300 KIAS and progressing to multiple go arounds as they were leaving bite marks on the elevators. Looking at data without understanding what it is trying to tell, the holistic view, is a waste of effort IMHO. :}

[Uplinker]

+1 Noel; re basics not being taught properly :ok:

And other fundamentals are not always taught very well either. I eventually taught myself how to fly the Airbus FBW and side-stick combination, since the type rating instructor I had was unable to explain it or teach it.

[fdr]

Poor basic training is so often the problem. Do not push forward when landing a tricycle (nose-wheel) undercarriage aeroplane. Full Stop.

In some training organisations there is far, far too much 'rush' to get onto more 'attractive' aspects of training that plodding away at getting the basics right at early stages gets missed. And then later that lack of understanding and ability comes back to bite, like that PA28 and like that ATR.

Decades ago I read an article in a GA flying magazine that said that there are now a greater percentage of nose-wheel related landing incidents since tricycle undercarriage aeroplanes became the norm than there were ground-loop or prop-strike incidents on tail-wheel aeroplanes when they were the norm. You had to be taught properly on a taildragger, while there is often too much "that will do" on a nose-wheel aeroplane.

It is not just landings that are not being taught well enough. Stalls are also a problem. Which can lead to 'experienced' airline pilots not recognising a full stall...

ŅÖËL

There is one minor problem that is not mentioned anywhere, but comes up in debriefs on events such as these, the trike going pointy bit downwards in a bounce. The driver (master of ceremonies?) sits at theft with the windows, and is at the end of an arm, from the Dunlops, CG etc. At "impact"/touchdown/alighting/caressing as applicable, where there is a substantial reaction force generated from Noootins revenge, #2 interfering with the plain just happily doing #1 until rudely interrupted, at that point, the guys in row 0 get a reminder that the plain is a series of levers, moments and sundry forces, and they all converge at the the burdmens brain in time to be included in the proprioceptor gubbins happening from the derriére, arms, spine, neck and even the bits inboard of the wax receptors on each side of the driver, (bits that Raybans hang off). Simply, the person on the controls gets a whole lot of physiological signals all at once, and some of those are compelling, indicating that the nose is coming up fast, (thats what g loading will feel like) and their grey matter is wired for action, which includes that. Teaching pilots to set an attitude, and hold that until the noise is over is not how we teach drivers. They will respond to what they think is happening, not what is actually happening. It is quite a surprise to show the replay of data to the driver once the dust has settled, and show what the inputs were on the controls, as often as not they have no idea that they have applied the control inputs that the plain responded to, not the udder way rownd.

In simple geometry and dynamics, an aircraft that has a normal moment arm for CG and gear, will have a rebound force applied that is a slight nose down pitch input if no other control is applied. That is not a design fault, it is what makes tricycle undercarriages easier to land than conventional gear, where the reaction forces of touchdown cause a nose up pitch moment to occur, ("pin the gear"... please).

On a landing on a part 25 aircraft assuming that the aircraft is somewhere within the VS limits of a normal approach, and ground effect wipes out a component of that, once a slight flare is undertaken, holding that attitude will result in the plain arriving on the planet at some point in the near future, just by holding the attitude. To do that, as speed decays, assuming the noise has been switched from loud to soft, then a slight back pressure on the prong is required over time.

We can do better in teaching drivers, and educating them on the physiology of hard touchdowns.

When the bottom drops out of an approach, there is an attitude that should not be exceeded if paint is important to retain on the tube. mad grabs for pitch will do precious little, as lift is not an instantaneous change to AOA, there is a delay, and then there is an additional delay between lift increasing and the flight path altering. Going to a "safe place" in pitch is a starting point to save on repainting and panel beating.

[Fly-by-Wife]

On a landing on a part 25 aircraft assuming that the aircraft is somewhere within the VS limits of a normal approach, and ground effect wipes out a component of that, once a slight flare is undertaken, holding that attitude will result in the plain arriving on the planet at some point in the near future, just by holding the attitude.
To misquote Douglas Adams: "Aim at the ground, but miss for as long as possible."

[punkalouver]

ŅÖËL
On a landing on a part 25 aircraft assuming that the aircraft is somewhere within the VS limits of a normal approach, and ground effect wipes out a component of that, once a slight flare is undertaken, holding that attitude will result in the plain arriving on the planet at some point in the near future, just by holding the attitude. To do that, as speed decays, assuming the noise has been switched from loud to soft, then a slight back pressure on the prong is required over time.

We can do better in teaching drivers, and educating them on the physiology of hard touchdowns.

When the bottom drops out of an approach, there is an attitude that should not be exceeded if paint is important to retain on the tube. mad grabs for pitch will do precious little, as lift is not an instantaneous change to AOA, there is a delay, and then there is an additional delay between lift increasing and the flight path altering. Going to a "safe place" in pitch is a starting point to save on repainting and panel beating.

The plane I bounced the most(but also had the nicest rewarding greasers) was the 727. No autospoilers at the moment of touchdown to hold you to the ground. So what do you do when you bounce? Hold the pitch and wait for it to come down again. The main gear is plenty tough. Of course, if you were to really bounce high, go around(but that didn't happen).

Getting close to the flare and the bottom starts dropping out from under you? Then add thrust to catch it and because you were ready to quickly add the thrust, it prevents the hard landing. You just have to guess at how much based on the variables of the situation and it may be a quick add of thrust followed almost immediately by a reduction. If you end up floating too much because of it, go-around(but that didn't happen).

Rapid pitch ups near the ground are usually bad news.