Saudia attacked

[Krypton]

The FAA is joining Bush in trying to penalize any thing that carries the name Saudi Arabia for 9/11, yesterday two Captains' FAA licences were revoked only on the basis of nationality. The rest will continue. I wonder if American Airlines would have been penalized for the Oklahoma tragedy, also based on the name American which coincides with the nationality of the perpetrators.

Rumor says Saudia Airlines is already on the way to adopt a JAR based legislation rather than FAR very soon (CARs ?)

[underboost]

What are you talking about?

[Low-Pass]

Krypton - Do you have the link/evidence that shows their nationality was the only reason why their licenses were withdrawn?

[CainanUK]

Absolute rubbish. Flame bait. Dont even dignify it with a response

[Airbubba]

>>I wonder if American Airlines would have been penalized for the Oklahoma tragedy, also based on the name American which coincides with the nationality of the perpetrators.<<

I don't know about that but I'm reasonably sure American Airlines was penalized by the Saudi hijackers in the 9-11 attacks and the shoe bomber in another attempt.

Yep, flame bait...

[mutt]

Looks like it wasnt flame bait......

JEDDAH, 17 September — About 150 Saudi pilots are remaining idle at home without jobs as the American Embassy in Riyadh refused to issue them visas to complete their training courses in the United States, Al-Hayat reported.

Despite efforts by Saudi Arabian Airlines to solve the problem of these pilots by sending them to European countries for training, the Saudi pilots of MD-90 aircraft are required to visit the US for training on the aircraft. Training on MD-90 planes is not available in other countries.

“Most of the pilots are now sitting at home for about a year. They have to continue in the same situation for another year if the US does not change its regulations,” the paper reported quoting informed sources.

US authorities have blacklisted a number of Saudi pilots after the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington. “These pilots are not allowed to visit the US and would be questioned if they visited,” the sources said.

The sources told the Arabic daily that the US authorities had canceled the license of some pilots, despite their long hours of flying. There are also unconfirmed reports on American advice to fire 25 pilots from service.

[newswatcher]

Hi Mutt,

Same source, quotes Dr Khaled ibn Bakr, director general of the airline, as saying that Saudia has already signed a contract with a national company to establish an aviation training centre in Jeddah.

Apparently there will be two facilities at the center; one for aviation training and another for aviation safety. It is anticipated that this will reduce training expenditure abroad and avoid the problems related to sending Saudi pilots abroad for training.

"The center aims at training Saudi cadre in aviation to meet the Kingdom's requirements," an official statement by the airline company said, adding that the training would be provided in line with the rules and standards set by the American FAA.

I guess this is not going to happen overnight, and where will they get their experienced trainers from? Can they source this internally?

Otherwise would they be able to use China Northern's facility at Kunming, in China, when it is ready later this year?

[BlueEagle]

"Training on the MD90 is not available in other countries" - is that true?

[lunkenheimer]

What evidence for the assertion that they are trying to "penalize any thing that carries the name Saudi Arabia"? Are _all_ Saudi pilots needing to travel to the U.S. under this restriction, or only certain ones?

This might be Dubya-style overreaction, or it might be justified.

Any supporting facts either way?

[breguet]

Even canadian pilots cannot go sim training in the USA unless they accept to go through a very thorough security check by the US. And yet, these pilots are flying in and out of the USA every day. And Canada is supposed to be a friendly country...This is stupidity at his best.

[Midnight Mike]

FlightSafetyBoeing in California is having a hell of time training
the Saudi's in the MD90, crews can not get visa's and it is not from a lack of trying. The crews are basically told to go home and wait for a phone call from the consulate, this is pretty sad as the Saudis having been training in the US for years, all of the crews get their ATP's in the US, and continue to return to the US as they change aircraft.

To get around the visa problems, the Saudis are using training centers outside of the US. The Saudis buy AMERICAN made aircraft but can not train in the same country they buy the aircraft from, do I smell AIRBUS in the future!!!

MIDNIGHT MIKE
(Ground Pounder)

[Robert Vesco]

Despite efforts by Saudi Arabian Airlines to solve the problem of these pilots by sending them to European countries for training, the Saudi pilots of MD-90 aircraft are required to visit the US for training on the aircraft. Training on MD-90 planes is not available in other countries.

Ha ha ! What a joke ! D

First, the US protects Saudi Arabia and liberates Kuwait during the Gulf War.

Second, as a return favour, the American heavilly pressure the Saudi´s to "buy American" (and definitely NOT Airbus) when they needed new equipment for their airline. Mc Donnell Douglas needed some more orders for their MD 90, so guess what, the Saudi´s buy the (commercially failed) MD90. :D

Third, they do not allow the pilots to enter the US for training because 4 hijacked aircraft crash in the US on 9/11. (the CIA, FBI and NIA were all sleeping that particular day :rolleyes: )

Don´t get me wrong, I love the US of A and Americans, but sometimes........ :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ORAC]

BlueEagle, I believe SAS Flight Academy offer a full range of MD-80 courses and also a MD-80 to MD-90 conversion course.

[mutt]

BlueEagle,

Past decisions always come back to haunt people, the Saudi MD90s are unique with a glass cockpit similiar to the MD11, there are only 3 suitable simulators in the world, Long Beach and Thales UK (2). The Thales simulators will soon be dispatched to the ME.

Newswatcher,

The article makes it sound as if the training center is a result of the visa problem, it is actually a long overdue facility that is under constuction with 4 simulators almost ready in Thales.

Lunkenheimer

ALL.


Mutt.

[ShotOne]

This sounds like a powerful argument for airlines like Saudia to resist the very forceful "Buy Boeing" pressure from the US government.

[MarkD]

The Airbus product line, in the dream of its directors:

how p!ssed are you at the US government?

(a) a bit narked [A321]

(b) pretty miffed [A330]

(c) damn annoyed [A346]

(d) furious [we'll have all the A380s you can build please]

:D :D :D

[Send Clowns]

Well, if you look at this all the US government is doing is refusing Visas to some foreign nationals, as is its right. Just because traditionally such Visas have been available they are not available by right, but as a privilege. Yes it fits badly with the US government pushing them to buy MD-90s, but politics should always be kept out of commerce (or you get the farce of France and Russia supporting Iraq for monetary gain).

Remember most of the terrorists (the Guardian/BBC still haven't managed to rebrand them freedom fighters, I take it?) who helped kill over 3,000 people last year were Saudi nationals who trained to fly in teh USA. Locking the stable door after the horse has bolted, but it's their stable, they can lock it when they please.

[foxmoth]

Whilst I can see the US does want and need to be cautious, if the US DOES go to war with Iraq they will STILL want Saudi backing and the Saudis have STILL said the US can use their bases if UN approved, seems a bit one sided to me!

[Elliot Moose]

Even canadian pilots cannot go sim training in the USA unless they accept to go through a very thorough security check by the US.

That isn't just IN the USA. If you want to do valid training related to an FAA license (for instance I hold an FAA ATPL and do recurrent every 6 months) you must submit to this Dept. of Justice check before training can be done. They (the D.O.J.)have even usurped the FAR's and pushed through a rule that if the training is done without DOJ approval, the training is invalid and must be repeated. :rolleyes:
By the way, a request for this approval must be resubmitted EVERY time training is done. So in 6mos I submit to it again.

[WhatsaLizad?]

As an American with a Catholic background, would any of the armchair weenie diplomats here please inform me when it becomes less difficult to enter and travel about Saudia Arabia as a tourist than to do the same in the United States.

You see, I missed the celebrations and roasted lamb feasts on 9/11 and after, and feel left out.




ps:Regarding lost aircraft orders, I'd have to use Rudolph Guiliani's example,'take your 10 million dollar check , and shove it up your arse'.

[newswatcher]

Mutt,

Not my intention, apologies if I gave that impression. I posted more as a question as to whether it would be enough to take the heat off the problem. With some 29 aircraft in its fleet, I had assumed that this would merit "self" training.

[N380UA]

Whatsa,

As a good American Christian, aren’t you in violation of your first amendment?

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
And what about “….shall exercise good practice” (Not in the constitution but something we have in aviation)?

Send Clowns is right in his statement; obviously it’s up to the US government to decide. But it remains an act of lunacy ala cowboy Dubya; and it’s not just on this issue.


p.s.
I’ll take the 10 million dollar check any which way you prefer.

[bugg smasher]

Saudia has wanted to ‘Saudi-ize’ their airline for a long time, this process has accelerated over the last several years. Many expatriate pilots who had been with them for some time have found themselves suddenly on the street, without recourse to the usual protections and benefits we so blithely take for granted here in the ‘real’ world.

That they are now having difficulty obtaining training in the US is understandable, given the present security considerations and the nationalities of the majority of the hijackers. I see them at Kennedy all the time, it’s a jaw-gaping politico tap-dancing wonder they are allowed to fly their aircraft onto American soil at all.

I find the suggestion that Saudia is being ‘attacked’ as preposterous as it is myopic.

[Midnight Mike]

Saudi is not only being attacked, but it seems that they are also being blamed for the World Trade Center attacks just because the terrorist were from the Middle East. That would be like blaming all of the Germans in the world for the terror that the Jews suffered, or even the blacks blaming every single white person in the world for slavery.

Lets not forget the terrorist attack on US soil by an American in OKC.

Saudi has been purchasing and training in the US for over 20 years, if they want to with their fleet of 767,747,777's, etc, they can wipe out every building in the US

The Saudis are being stopped from training in the US, for all the good that does, they train over in Europe and still fly into the US, that makes plenty of sense, hmmm? They have a nice flight in a 777 from the Middle East into Washington DC.

When was the last time that a Saudi airline was used in a terrorist attack?

Just for your information, no matter where the Saudi crew train, they still receive FAA type ratings.....


Midnight Mike
(sleeping with 1 eye open, keeping an eye out for those Saudis

[newswatcher]

Midnight Mike, in answer to your question, may I suggest that SV115 - October 14 2000, was a potential terrorist threat.

[bugg smasher]

Fifteen of the nineteen were citizens of Saudi Arabia, something which the Saudis themselves are still in fierce denial over. Go back to sleep Mike, Dubya's got ya covered.

[RatherBeFlying]

Agreed that many of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi nationals.

However not one had ever been employed as flight crew. They were self-sponsored.

Given that your average airline is rather picky about who they hire, one would think the DOJ would direct its resources to checking out the bona fides of the self-sponsored.

Just one of many examples of the imperviousness of the American security mentality to any form of logic:p

[L1011PFE]

Perhaps the US government is being cautious. It is still on a high level of alert since 9/11. There are thousands upon thousands of leads to follow-up upon and thousands upon thousands of applications to investigate. This can be a giant task, especially when dealing with the bureaucracy of the Saudi government. I should know, I worked for Saudia for 4 years and I have first hand experience dealing with their government. It takes weeks to get a simple task accomplished. I can only imagine how long it would take for an acceptable background check to be processed.

It is true that Saudia fly's into JFK on a regular basis, and they have never attempted a suicide attack with their aircraft. But, no one ever did before 9/11. With the other avenues of attack virtually blocked, what would prevent a loyal terrorist from using a Saudi Jet? An ounce of prevention...

Would-be terrorists are weaned on the radical rhetoric of the Saudi Imam. And, all it takes is one dedicated maniac with a crash axe in the cockpit of a 777 and less than 2 minutes to the empire state building and you have another 9/11.

It's funny how the US government agencies were blamed for not doing their jobs before 9/11. And now, when they do their jobs, they're criticized. They can't please everyone, so they might as well please themselves. I for one am glad we are taking our time processing these new students. If the Saudis are upset, then that's just too bad! I'd rather inconvience the Saudi's (and any other country) than take the chance of one more innocent being killed.:p

[Bubbette]

Posted by Midnight Mike:
"Saudi is not only being attacked, but it seems that they are also being blamed for the World Trade Center attacks just because the terrorist were from the Middle East. That would be like blaming all of the Germans in the world for the terror that the Jews suffered, or even the blacks blaming every single white person in the world for slavery. "


Not exactly----the hate against non-Muslims and particularly Americans is fostered and financed by Saudi Arabia through their funding of Wahabi mosques throughout the world. These mosques regularly preach the need for Muslims to kill infidels, particularly Americans, and Jews, although Christians also need to be killed. And non-Gd believers---look out Buddhists!

[WhatsaLizad?]

N380UA,

What exactly are you talking about?

"good american christian"? Huh?, I said "background" genius. I am along way from ever getting ordained.

"an act of lunacy"? Really. The poor Saudis are being victimized. Please comment on the double standard of me being unable to visit Saudi Arabia while ignorants such as yourself ,jump on the United States for trying to deal with an un-coopertive Saudis on immigration issues.



A good question for the anti-Bin Laden Saudis;

How does a legless religous shiek find his way post 9/11 into Afghanistan for a warm tea visit with Osama, gets caught on video saying all of the members of his mosque "were overjoyed watching the towers fall", then "hops" back to SA without their knowledge?



Mike
Saudi is not only being attacked, but it seems that they are also being blamed for the World Trade Center attacks just because the terrorist were from the Middle East. That would be like blaming all of the Germans in the world for the terror that the Jews suffered, or even the blacks blaming every single white person in the world for slavery.

"Saudi attacked"? that is insane. The Saudi goverment continues to have the freedom to build and support mosques in the US that preach their BS tribal view of Islam while forbidding under penalty of beheading for christians to do the same in SA.

The Germans did share the blame for what they did do the Jews and many others in WWII. They attoned for those mistakes after they got the crap kicked out of them. they also supported Hitler and his policies. He didn't do it alone.

The blacks could blame nearly every southern white who supported slavery in the South US, most alive during that time in the south did. they are all dead now, big difference from your example of the poor Saudis.

No we can't directly blame the Saudis for the actions of the 9/11 muderers. But the actions of views of most Saudis ,that has been reported from diifferent sources is sickening. Right after 9/11, they would not permit US overflights attempting to fight the terrorists hiding in Afghanistan. Most of the polls show they are duplicit, two faced savages;
1.The US deserved it 2. The Mossad did it.

Lets see, we hate the Mossad, we know they kill muslims, they attacked the US, not muslims. But then the US deserved it.

If they thought the Mossad did it, then they should be horrified at the actions of the zionists. they aren't, they turned around and say 3000 people desrved to die. A majority of Saudis (and at least Egytians) think this way. Once you have a majority of the citizens thinking this way, they can all go f%$k themselves.

[Airbubba]

Like most of these deals, it doesn't work both ways. The Saudis don't seem to let travel agents issue visas for Americans.

____________________________________

From the Washington Times:

EDITORIAL • July 8, 2002

Derail the Saudi visa express

Have we already forgotten the black comedy of the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) reissuing Mohammed Atta's visa six months after he crashed an airliner into the World Trade Center? It appears that we have. For too long, too many foreign visitors have legally entered the United States on visas that never should have been issued. It is bad enough that our porous borders enable many to enter illegally, but there is no excuse now — almost 10 months after September 11 — for the lack of adequate controls on legal entry.
President Bush's Homeland Security Department is supposed to include the INS and tackle this widespread problem. Congressional debate on the Homeland Security bill will take months. But while Congress debates the complex legislation, there are parts of the visa system that need to be fixed right now. For starters, the president needs to derail the Saudi Visa Express.
If you visit the web site for the American Embassy in the Saudi capital of Riyadh (http://usembassy.state.gov/riyadh), you'll find the U.S. Visa Express link. The express is a visa-application service that the embassy has parceled out to 10 travel agencies. Anyone who is a resident of Saudi Arabia — even those who aren't Saudi citizens — can apply for a non-immigrant visa to the United States simply by filling out a form and sending a picture of himself along with the fee to one of these travel agencies. His visa comes in the mail, and he's off to the United States, without any American ever checking whether, for example, the person is on a terrorist watch list.
Obviously, someone needs to remind the people in the State Department that most of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were Saudis and that three of them got their visas through the Saudi Visa Express. This is a big hole in our homeland security that needs to be plugged immediately—not six months or a year from now...

_______________________________________________

And how does an American get a Saudi visa?

Visas: There is no such thing as a tourist visa for Saudi Arabia. You can enter the country with a visitor's transit or (if you're Muslim) hajj or umrah visa. To get a visitor's visa you will have to be sponsored by a Saudi individual or company. Another option is a 24 or 48-hour transit visa - to get one you have to prove that you had no choice other than to stop-over in Saudi Arabia en route to your final destination. You can now also visit the country as a non-Muslim if you join an approved (and expensive - US$5000 plus) organised tour.

From http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/middle_east/saudi_arabia/facts.htm

___________

PASSPORTS MUST BE VALID FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS FOR ALL TYPES OF VISAS

All visitors traveling to Saudi Arabia require visas, with different types issued depending on purpose of visit. Saudi Embassies may issue visitors visas to businessmen with legitimate business concerns in the Kingdom. Likewise, close relatives of expatriate workers may apply for and obtain visit visas, depending on the expatriate worker's job type and position.

These are the requirements of Business Visit VISA for the US citizens:

A white visa application form, a valid passport and one photograph.

An original cover letter from a registered company or firm based in the US indicating the name of the Saudi Arabian company, the nature of the applicant’s visit, length of stay and financial responsibility. The letter must bear the company’s stamp or seal.

An application from the sponsor in the Kingdom on the applicant’s behalf to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, or an original letter of invitation from the company in Saudi Arabia . This letter must be signed and sealed by the company and stamped by the Saudi Chamber of Commerce. For businesswomen, the invitation must come from the Saudi Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

A money order made out to the “Royal Embassy of Saudi Arabia” for the following amount
*$54.00 for US passport holders
*$54.00 for single entry for non-US passport holders
*$135.00 for multiple entries for non-US passport holders.
(cash and personal checks are not accepted)

(For non-US citizen applicants) A photocopy of a valid residence document (green card)


http://www.saudia-online.com/Travelling%20to%20Saudi%20Arabia.htm

[Midnight Mike]

Fifteen of the nineteen were citizens of Saudi Arabia, something which the Saudis themselves are still in fierce denial over. Go back to sleep Mike, Dubya's got ya covered.

YES, you are quite right, your numbers are right on the money! Bravo!

BUT, none, of terrorist were pilots with Saudi Airlines, as a matter of fact none of the terrorist were pilots with a major airline.

There are over 300,000 Saudi nationals living in Saudi Arabia, are they all potential terrorists?

What about the Saudi's living in the US or for that matter flying for US airlines, should we classify them as potential terrorist?

I am one for increased security, but the problem is not being solved, FINDING & STOPPING THE TERRORIST!

I would rather the US conduct thorough background checks on these Saudi crews, rather than letting them train outside of the US where the background may not be as thorough.

Keep your friends close, & your enemies closer

IF THE US IS GOING TO CLOSE THE BORDERS, THEN DO IT THE RIGHT WAY, KEEP ALL ARAB COUNTRIES AWAY FROM OUR AIRSPACE & IN TURN WE WILL NOT FLY THERE!

We are letting our emotions control our actions, rather than thinking with our head, the big head that is.

[John Barnes]

It is about time we realise that Saudi Arabia is not the loyal friend to the USA as they make us to believe. Just look at the number of Saudi nationals who were among the terrorists, and last but not least our friend Bin Laden has ( or had) Allah's favourite nationality.

[Airbubba]

Yep, looks like the terrorists are finding a comfy home in Europe:

Lingering Muslim Extremism
Perplexes Tolerant Germany

Nazi History Inhibits Debate About Men
Living on the Dole and Cheering Jihad

September 20, 2002

By IAN JOHNSON
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL


HAMBURG, Germany -- Riad Barakat sits in a small restaurant shaking his head at the almost entirely Muslim clientele. "Look at the women, their shoulders showing," he says. "They will not go to heaven. These people are dirt."

But one former local Muslim, he says, is surely in paradise: Mohamed Atta, thought to be the pilot of the first plane that hit the World Trade Center. "After the attacks, 71,000 people converted to Islam. That will give him a pass to heaven," Mr. Barakat says. "He was a true martyr."

Mr. Barakat is a regular at al-Quds Mosque, spiritual home to three of the Sept. 11 pilots. It was in this extremist setting, where imams advocated death and al Qaeda recruiters paid frequent calls, that Mr. Atta and his two friends embraced terrorism. Police and intelligence services have watched, bugged and searched al-Quds and several dozen other mosques across Germany, trying to prevent future attacks. Worshipers have been detained and arrested.

But more than a year after the attacks, German cities are still home to extremist Muslims. That's raising the question here of what, if anything, should be done about men such as Mr. Barakat: immigrants who live off welfare, hold their new homeland in contempt and are in awe of bloody martyrdom. On the eve of national elections, it is clear that Germany -- even though it served as an incubator of the Sept. 11 plot -- hasn't figured out the answer.

...One reason Muslims flock to Germany from the Middle East and Central and South Asia is that it is relatively easy to get into the country and stay indefinitely. Germany has some of the most tolerant asylum and guest-worker laws in the world. Many immigrants are allowed to bring over their families and are provided with generous welfare benefits. Moreover, the country's universities charge only nominal tuition, even to foreigners. It was higher education that initially attracted Mr. Atta and some of his colleagues to Hamburg, before they turned to terrorism.

"It's no coincidence that the hijackers came from Germany," says Bassam Tibi, a scholar of Islam at Goettingen University, who is himself a Muslim immigrant from Jordan. "Here, they could live outside of society. No one even expected them to work." Historically, Germany hasn't made much effort to integrate immigrants. For example, it remains more difficult for foreigners to become citizens there than in many other Western countries...

[bugg smasher]

Airbubba, to be fair to the Germans, I think they have belatedly realized the extent of extremist Muslim immigrant infiltration into their territory, and are now doing something about it. In the efficient way they generally do things, I am certain they will soon prevail against the coalition of mosques. Had Germany not been such a convenient meeting place, the crazed ones could just as easily have used England, Italy, Spain, or upstate New York. In licking our wounds, sadly, I'm afraid we have no one but ourselves to blame.

Mike, I would not be so much worried about a Saudia pilot as I would the passengers they potentially carry. A 747-400 on final approach to Kennedy that suddenly strays is not likely to be stopped by F-16s before reaching its target. You must understand that the primitive savages who blindly target us, also target the current rulers of the Kingdom; a successful hijacking and crashing of a Saudia airliner into an American target would be a double coup for them.

To my knowledge, Saudia has not installed fortified cockpit doors (please correct me if I am wrong) or instituted any other special security procedures since 911. The Saudi Royal family is doing little more than paying lip service to the combat against extremist terrorists for fear of their own hides, while Saudi money continues to flow to questionable 'charities' in large amounts. Until fundamental changes occur within that country that provide us with reason to have confidence in them, let them eat cow pie.

[helios737]

Well gentlemen, having read your messages I cannot understand your ignorance into this matter. Being an ex-pat pilot flying in Saudi Arabia I understand the problems they are going through but they did it to themselves. Sixteen of the nineteen hijackers were bloody Saudis! Do you not understand the enormity of 9/11?The Saudis or any other middle eastern country who train in the US have now to pay for their Muslim brothers!

[desert_knight]

This all seems rather bizarre, why stop Saudia Pilots training to fly MD90s used on internal Saudi and regional routes when they are already (and have done for many, many years) training their own crews in Jeddah on B747s that actually fly to The US?

The only reason they are not already training their own MD90 crews is that it took them years to stop internal squabbling and decide on a final site for the new Saudia training centre! It should be up and running soon.

All seems very silly to me, but then, what do I know!

[betelnut]

The first thing FlightSafety asks to see is proper ID. Passport or birth certificate and a govt. issued form of id. This is for the AMERICAN pilots as well. If you dont have it, you go home. You can thank the US State Department.

[Algy]

...expensive for the US too however.

Emirates has switched training from West Michigan to BAE in Adelaide as a result of the difficulties experienced in the USA. They officially say it's not because of that, but I have it on the record from the Emirates trainers that in fact that is the primary reason.

[ZFT]

BlueEagle,

TT&SL UK has built 2 X MD90s for Saudia. I believe they were finished earlier this year - trouble is, Saudia's new sim building is not ready yet.

[Taildragger67]

N380UA

Methinks you misread Whatsa. in that a) the First Amendment applies to all in the US - but not extraterritorially, so you're not covered by it before you enter the US and b) the DoJ is not making any restriction based on religion, but rather one based on a combination of nationality (not mentioned in the Bill of Rights) and profession.

The effect might be the same but the way it's implemented is important.