Tragedy at Cathay Pacific: When toxic culture claims lives of 2 pilots

[Avinthenews]

Deserving of its own headline for awareness.

Tragedy at Cathay Pacific: When toxic culture claims lives of 2 pilots (http://www.dimsumdaily.hk/tragedy-at-cathay-pacific-when-toxic-culture-claims-lives-of-2-pilots/)

[VforVENDETTA]

Finally, it's getting public attention. Way overdue. But better late than never.

How long before this trend will cause another German Wings or Egypt Air tragedy? Its a matter of when not if with this trend.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Deserving of its own headline for awareness.

Tragedy at Cathay Pacific: When toxic culture claims lives of 2 pilots (http://www.dimsumdaily.hk/tragedy-at-cathay-pacific-when-toxic-culture-claims-lives-of-2-pilots/)

This should be really emailed to Bloomberg! Danny would love this

[gipilot]

C’mon guys, stop posting this. Let the man rest in peace. As for Cx , they see this as just a ern number to be replaced by another. Seriously, don’t any of you know who you’re working for?

[Babyjet_dododo]

C’mon guys, stop posting this. Let the man rest in peace. As for Cx , they see this as just a ern number to be replaced by another. Seriously, don’t any of you know who you’re working for?

We want him to rest in peace knowing his death was not in vein. We will beat the drums and tell whoever will listen that this is the reality of being inside CX. We will not relent till the company admits it’s putting a lot of undue pressure on its pilots and the CAD is forced to act.

But apart from getting coverage, the company will most likely go into damage control, spin it, make it out like it’s not their fault and have complied with all regulatory requirements.

The CAD will say it’s an “internal company matter” and refuse to investigate and it will be forgotten.

But we can’t forget, we owe it to his wife and daughters that CX, and other companies should not put an employee in that position ever again. And policies/regulations need to be drafted to protect workers.

[HKG_Refugee]

I just don't get why people are there.

The world has so many jobs.

It is not a good job.

[Will IB Fayed]

I just don't get why people are there.

The world has so many jobs.

It is not a good job.

Likewise. The entire world is hiring pilots. Either stay and enjoy the job for what it is, or leave. I simply don't understand why people are still complaining about life at CX.
Move on.

[stevieboy330]

Greedy Cathay Pacific, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

[cygnet78]

Exactly, why this ppl still in CX ? just leave. stop complaining. nobody will pity you guys.

[Climbpowder]

Likewise. The entire world is hiring pilots. Either stay and enjoy the job for what it is, or leave. I simply don't understand why people are still complaining about life at CX.
Move on.

Sounds like those ignorants friends of my GF. "entire world is hiring pilots"

- Do you have the right to live and work in the "entire world"?
- Do you have qualifications and rank for those jobs?
- Is your family ready to follow you anywhere?
- If you even have a partner, will she/her be willing to move out?

Very vague and ignorant comment...

[veryoldchinahand]

These deaths are tragic but it is nothing short of monstrous for some here to attempt to use these terrible tragedies as a stick with which to beat their wholly unconnected employer that just happens to be an airline - with which some of you have unrelated historical issues .

The quoted story -
Not exactly a headline or even a reputable source
Dimsum daily being a paraphernal and rather obscure trash HK local social media platform that describes itself as "viral media platform which aims to bring fun news, entertainment to Hong Kongers.social media. Unsurprisingly this is the only source for this scurrilous nonsense.

The deaths to which you refer were over a year apart with the first tragedy, according to many media reports having had nothing what -so- ever to do with persons employment.He left a note citing his marriage breakup as the catalyst.
The second tragedy, a South African national who according to SA media reports had reported prior mental health issues going back some years when a freighter pilot with SAA.

As for Bloomberg! dream on - Danny nor any reputable journalist would touch this c*rap with a barge pole

It is still sad though to read this vindictive rubbish on a pprune thread.

[Brown Nose]

These deaths are tragic but it is nothing short of monstrous for some here to attempt to use these terrible tragedies as a stick with which to beat their wholly unconnected employer that just happens to be an airline - with which some of you have unrelated historical issues .

The quoted story -
Not exactly a headline or even a reputable source
Dimsum daily being a paraphernal and rather obscure trash HK local social media platform that describes itself as "viral media platform which aims to bring fun news, entertainment to Hong Kongers.social media. Unsurprisingly this is the only source for this scurrilous nonsense.

The deaths to which you refer were over a year apart with the first tragedy, according to many media reports having had nothing what -so- ever to do with persons employment.He left a note citing his marriage breakup as the catalyst.
The second tragedy, a South African national who according to SA media reports had reported prior mental health issues going back some years when a freighter pilot with SAA.

As for Bloomberg! dream on - Danny nor any reputable journalist would touch this c*rap with a barge pole

It is still sad though to read this vindictive rubbish on a pprune thread.

what part of it was untrue ********?

[Progress Wanchai]

Oh, you’re going to beat your drums? You’ll probably beat your chest too as well as other self floggings. Current Cx pilots are good at beating themselves, just not very good at actually DOING something.

By the way, congratulations are in order!! Another beating! The present group of Cx pilots have just beaten the previous record of the longest stretch of industrial harmony in pilot/management relationships in the past 25 years. There has never been a more peaceful period in the flight crew’s relationship with management than now. All the more remarkable given how many times you’ve been asked to bend over and hold your ankles. The most compliant group of pilots in the company’s history.

Not compliant in a contract compliance sense. The opposite actually. Willingly assisting management at every opportunity. Just this week with the passing typhoon, how many of you obediently followed management’s request to check and acknowledge your updated rosters from home thereby limiting the disruption to the operation? Alternatively, how many made the effort to ignore the OCN, go to work and then insist to operations you’d signed on and and have your duty time records reflect this? Let me guess. Not one of you put your money where your mouth is.
Management thanks you, whilst acknowledging you deserve not a thing more than their insincere thanks.

On the plus side, it would have freed up some time for more self beatings.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Oh, you’re going to beat your drums? You’ll probably beat your chest too as well as other self floggings. Current Cx pilots are good at beating themselves, just not very good at actually DOING something.

By the way, congratulations are in order!! Another beating! The present group of Cx pilots have just beaten the previous record of the longest stretch of industrial harmony in pilot/management relationships in the past 25 years. There has never been a more peaceful period in the flight crew’s relationship with management than now. All the more remarkable given how many times you’ve been asked to bend over and hold your ankles. The most compliant group of pilots in the company’s history.

Not compliant in a contract compliance sense. The opposite actually. Willingly assisting management at every opportunity. Just this week with the passing typhoon, how many of you obediently followed management’s request to check and acknowledge your updated rosters from home thereby limiting the disruption to the operation? Alternatively, how many made the effort to ignore the OCN, go to work and then insist to operations you’d signed on and and have your duty time records reflect this? Let me guess. Not one of you put your money where your mouth is.
Management thanks you, whilst acknowledging you deserve not a thing more than their insincere thanks.

On the plus side, it would have freed up some time for more self beatings.


So how’s your Swire Prince Application going?

People like yourself and oldchinahand are exactly what Cathay deserves. No empathy towards anyone but the company. If you die tomorrow, how many Cathay Reps will attend your funeral? What about colleagues? You seem to be of a lone soul, unable to impress anyone unless you mention you’re a pilot, then you fizzle out in the background.

btw, I did put my money where my mouth is, but I feel for the people stuck in CX that can’t see a way out.

Enjoy your hard slog of 100 hrs per month, piss poor benefits, and the ever evolving “handbook” (which I’m sure you’ve framed). People like you will never be employed by another organisation and hence become stuck. Enjoy your life in CX, then become a sim instructor. But just remember the Swire Princes will always and forever be better than you in the company’s eyes.

[cxflog]

Sounds like those ignorants friends of my GF. "entire world is hiring pilots"

- Do you have the right to live and work in the "entire world"?
- Do you have qualifications and rank for those jobs?
- Is your family ready to follow you anywhere?
- If you even have a partner, will she/her be willing to move out?

Very vague and ignorant comment...
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes

If any of the remaining pilots actually had a spine, the CX pilot group wouldn’t be where it is. You reap what you sow.

[Oasis]

- Yes
- Yes
- Yes
- Yes

If any of the remaining pilots actually had a spine, the CX pilot group wouldn’t be where it is. You reap what you sow.

I can hear a big whoosh!

[corporal klinger]

The suicide rate in Hong Kong is at about 15 per 100 000 total population per year ( same level as US, lower than SA, higher than UK). Controlled for elevated risk factors as expatriate status, middle age, ethnicity and gender about 20. Applied to an average of 2500 pilots the expected rate would stand at 0.3- 0.5 occurences per year.Statistically the case numbers are hence not significant.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

The suicide rate in Hong Kong is at about 15 per 100 000 total population per year ( same level as US, lower than SA, higher than UK). Controlled for elevated risk factors as expatriate status, middle age, ethnicity and gender about 20. Applied to an average of 2500 pilots the expected rate would stand at 0.3- 0.5 occurences per year.Statistically the case numbers are hence not significant.

Spoken like a true manager who considers human beings as commodities. Bravo :yuk:

[KABOY]

The suicide rate in Hong Kong is at about 15 per 100 000 total population per year ( same level as US, lower than SA, higher than UK). Controlled for elevated risk factors as expatriate status, middle age, ethnicity and gender about 20. Applied to an average of 2500 pilots the expected rate would stand at 0.3- 0.5 occurences per year.Statistically the case numbers are hence not significant.

What an ignorant, misinformed and idiotic statement to make.

Depression amongst pilots is a well known problem, with airlines globally placing a focus on addressing this illness. Up to 12% of pilots face some form of depression, how that translates into suicide is not known as figures relate to pilot aircraft assisted suicide.

If you wanted to start looking at statistics and applied that 12% to CX, I would be nervous about what could happen, unless CX starts to take some level of ownership towards pilots mental health and not cast them as liabilities requiring immediate isolation.

This is a fault of the CAD and supported by CX.

[corporal klinger]

Zapp, associating the application of statistics, by definition purely focused on numbers and not the tragedy behind them, with emotional detachment is fatous and defamatory. Truly a remarkable primitive display of intellectual confusion, even by the low standards in here.

Kaboy, nothing what you say makes any remote sense whatsoever, e.g. 12% depression rate among pilots would mean the prevalence is actually lower than in the average population, just to give an example of your obvious complete lack of comprehension. Embarrassing.

Good bye, this was my last post.

[KABOY]

Good bye, this was my last post

I hope so, save us all from your inanity.

[VR-HFX]

For your reference Babyjet:

Satire: the use of humour, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticise people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.

[FeetUp]

We should never be hearing a story like this from a company like this.

[Tiger pork]

VOCH..you appear to use corporate insouciance as a way to mitigate and through the cracks of your missive, appease the management culture of an organisation that has now shown its true colours. Airlines were never "up there" with the suicide highs..( such as ATC, dentists and oddly enough, the legal profession )..but now, they are.

The impact of psycho neurotic incidents such as Eurowings and Egypt Air et al make massive headline and often mask the true narrative behind the context. CX have, since 1992, changed shape significantly. If they were a practice of surgeons then the metaphor would be the current use of sabres instead of scalpels. If you travel CX, long or short haul, one aspect that prevails in the cabin and via the Capt PA, is the ring of a pernicious Company where even a Captain's name is a reluctant broadcast.

The CC wear masks and PPE gloves, have zero empathy, little kindness or interest and no concern vv pax welfare..NONE.
This was never the previous iteration of a once great firm. It's ENTIRELY down to the toxicity of a mid and senior management system that has lost so much contact with reality that some of us inside that coal face, feel handling the pride that once went with the profession..to be well..unaccountable to the point of depression. As sad and tragic as that is VOCH, please see this as a developing disease that a tepid corporate culture has created..maybe if you yourself are a manager, you should take a long hard look in the still of a reflective stream and ask yourself the very same question.

[veryoldchinahand]

'Tiger pork" As your thoughtful email was addressed at my contribution I am pleased to answer.
The total number of pilot suicides worldwide and as they directly relate to their employer are well documented for at least the last 20 years.
I do travel frequently and yes once in a while the CC are not as good as they should be but it has ever been thus over the 45 years that I have travelled with CX and others. Recently I had a serious opp on my back and temporarily need a to use a single stick -the CC have been unfailingly kind as have the ground staff and I infacility disagree your above statement "have zero empathy, little kindness or interest and no concern vv pax welfare..NONE.'' ......which is just simply and totally untrue.

CX aircraft are full and there is plenty of competition...and they are not as cheap as the competition yet pax come back to Cathay time after time. This for the very simple reason that CX delivers a great experience for pax which as a result they keep coming back and back again.

As regards corporate culture I would say with some confidence that Swire group are well up the corporate culture enlightened thinking scale and have been for many years.
As a generalisation of current corporate culture your comments possibly carry some weight however as they pertain to Cathay they do not and frankly you come across to me as yet another CX hater with an axe to grind re unrelated historical issues with the airlines management - of which BTW I am not one.

[Tiger pork]

VOCH..well, I think we have to agree to disagree then.
I would submit that if your injuries are blatant and in need of assistance, then any legacy carrier would be duty bound to provide help. However, as a collective matter, my experience from a general perspective, is that of little concern by the CC for pax, both in EY and pseudo biz/biz. CX CC provide the bare minimum of service demanded by the Regulator and indeed, are probably more than well versed in their safety duties, ( though the recent ish 777 abort is a testament otherwise..).

The travel volumes on the Europe to HKG route are very high post covid. I could pop a DC3 on that gig and fill it. The massive decant into China and the seamless provisions given by CX, HE etc is a great benefit to the flying public in that respect and it is nominally that, driving the choice in chosing CX over say BA or KLM for instance. As for the management at CX and at higher levels in the Swire cabal, I have to bring the corporate barometer you use to task. If you believe that there has been NO shift in good governance towards bad, since the late 90's then you have been living in some sort of pertinacious bubble. The real world that has seen a large percentage of the CX pilots walk, early retire and even retrain in other professions has been substantial, though I will concede that covid has been a pernicious partner for us all. That CX has survived is not..NOT due to good governance but more towards the support given by our own HKG Govt.

I am not as you say, " a typical CX basher"..far from it. I would dearly love to see the Company I built..yes..I BUILT succeed but on the back of FairPlay, proper pilot playing fields and sound, solid empathy. Currently, the leadership has much to be desired in not being a meritocracy..not being driven by the fields defined by good diligence and not soliciting the good will of its front line crews..that is evident by the large % of leavers since mid covid. When that changes and expat pilots return to fly the Swire flag again then maybe you might buy either a new barometer or take a look outside that bubble.

[veryoldchinahand]

Well ,that we agree to disagree to a significant degree is undeniably correct however it is I believe undeniable that we are both concerned. re governance and direction
The bobble that you just invented in order to package your deluded view of the airline industry as a business in 2023 is of course a fiction - an unachievable wish list if you like. I rather wish in some ways that it was not the the case however the goalposts of the industry as a whole moved. significantly a few years back and the reality of this is perhaps not palatable to you hence your bubble- not mine.
The governance of Swire and Cathay is I believe both strong and appropriate to the world and the airline industry as it now is . Not as it used to be as much as both you and perhaps I may wish that to be.

[spiffolo]

I can hear a big whoosh!


nothing but the net!

[Oasis]

nothing but the net!
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x400/bd639ace1d3e63d89b89fb6d83a6fc0d_740e3552b619de8f0b5d68f8177 e2a230f1780f2.png

[Will IB Fayed]

Sounds like those ignorants friends of my GF. "entire world is hiring pilots"

- Do you have the right to live and work in the "entire world"?
- Do you have qualifications and rank for those jobs?
- Is your family ready to follow you anywhere?
- If you even have a partner, will she/her be willing to move out?

Very vague and ignorant comment...
Neither vague nor ignorant.
Pilot recruiting exploding. I was dumped from CX and ended up in my home town in a job paying more. Time for you to grow a pair...