Air Safety Institute Senior Vice President...

[70 Mustang]

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/air-safety-institutes-richard-mcspadden-dies-in-crash/

[megan]

Just goes to show, Fate is certainly the Hunter. Fair winds Brothers.

Timbered country, not a place you'd want to come down in, he wrote about turn backs as well.

https://aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2021/june/pilot/safety-spotlight-the-runway-behind-you

[70 Mustang]

Some of the best of the best have been unable to successfully deal with engine failures. I have no illusion of being a member of that group.

our thoughts go out to the family members for their loss.

[treadigraph]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/346160

[sb_sfo]

Russ Francis, an NFL tight end of great talent, was the passenger killed. He was outstanding when he played for the 49ers. RIP.

[BFSGrad]

Russ Francis, an NFL tight end of great talent, was the passenger killed. He was outstanding when he played for the 49ers. RIP.

Reports are that Francis was sitting left seat and was held a commercial certificate. While reasonable to assume left seater was PIC, right seater can be PIC if appropriately rated, which McSpadden likely was.

[sb_sfo]

I take your point, I just didn't want to refer to Russ as "other occupant" or similar.

[rb14]

Terrible news. And sobering. Richard was a joy to watch and learn from on the Air Safety Institute YouTube channel, delivering fair, insightful, clear and informative videos. That he, of all people, lost his life in a light aircraft accident, should serve as a stark warning to us all.

[ATC Watcher]

That he, of all people, lost his life in a light aircraft accident, should serve as a stark warning to us all.
Not a warning though, but a reminder , once more, that no one is immune , even the very best, of us. " Fate is the Hunter " E,Gann said long ago, and unfortunately still today "**** happens " and will continue to do so.

[treadigraph]

Think McSpadden interviewed Mark Levy after his forced landing in a P-51 just short of the M11 at Duxford a few years ago. Nice bloke, what a shame.

[Pilot DAR]

Timbered country, not a place you'd want to come down in, he wrote about turn backs as well

A look on Google Earth shows a number of open areas around the airport. As for a [possible] turnback, a Cessna Cardinal RG departing from a 4000 foot runway should have a few decent options if it was an EFATO. Agreed, none great, but choices. A very experienced friend of mine was killed, along with the pilot flying, at his home airport (6000 foot runway, and lots of choices) because the pilot flying initiated a turnback, which might have actually worked if had been flown correctly, but it was not, and the plane spun. My experienced friend could not prevent/correct the flying error in time.

It can happen to any of us.....

[Kiku]

Reports are that Francis was sitting left seat and was held a commercial certificate. While reasonable to assume left seater was PIC, right seater can be PIC if appropriately rated, which McSpadden likely was.
They would have likely agreed on that prior to the flight...

[fdr]

Richard's interview of Mark Levy was really well done, a credit to both guys on their professionalism. Aviation can throw up challenges to anyone at anytime, and the outcome depends on the circumstances and capability and the accuracy of decisions made under uncertainty, stress and some luck.

[EXDAC]

I was shocked to hear of this accident and, later in the day, to learn that a local Carbon Cub pilot had died in Washington.

My understanding is that the aircraft was owned and operated by a local club or FBO. I have taught engine fail turn backs and you really have to know the aircraft to know if it is possible. In the PA-28-180 and AA-5A I have done them from 300 ft AGL with engine idle. In my constant speed prop Carbon Cub 500 ft was the absolute minimum. I would not attempt a real turn back with much less than twice those altitudes.

If a turn back was attempted then how well did either pilot know this aircraft and the altitude required to stand a chance of making it work?

[pattern_is_full]

A look on Google Earth shows a number of open areas around the airport. As for a [possible] turnback, a Cessna Cardinal RG departing from a 4000 foot runway should have a few decent options if it was an EFATO. Agreed, none great, but choices.

That may be understimating the roughness of the terrain, at this airport in the Adirondack Mountains.

https://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-news/2023/10/two-killed-in-lake-placid-airplane-crash-identified/

It also appears the takeoff was to the northwest (crash "at the end of a runway, near the North Elba Athletic Fields"), with the city of Lake Placid ahead on the runway centerline, and buildings beginning only 200m or so from the end of the runway

(Speculation) It is even possible this was actually an aborted takeoff (or attempt to put the plane back down while still over the runway), that ran right off the runway and down the embankment/gully (see shadows) and into the trees at the NW runway end.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lake+Placid+Airport/@44.2705441,-73.9721171,2154m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4ccae251e528a399:0xe14f778fbccebd9 6!8m2!3d44.266407!4d-73.9648!16s%2Fg%2F11f53qt979?hl=en-US&entry=ttu

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lake+Placid+Airport/@44.2681491,-73.9691425,269m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4ccae251e528a399:0xe14f778fbccebd9 6!8m2!3d44.266407!4d-73.9648!16s%2Fg%2F11f53qt979!5m1!1e4?hl=en-US&entry=ttu

EDIT: However, it appears it may have just landed short on an immediate 180° return, and hit the embankment going the other way.

https://www.wcax.com/2023/10/02/2-dead-northern-new-york-plane-crash/

[Lake1952]

Former New England Patriot Russ Francis was in the left hand seat and the owner of the plane. He was a very experienced pilot. While he played for the Patriots in the 1980s, he owned a Beech Staggerwing which he flew out of nearby Norwood Airport, KOWD. RIP!

[EXDAC]

Anyone here know the 177RG well? Some CS props are still in the governing range with engine windmilling at best glide speed. For these aircraft there is a significant improvement in glide performance with prop control full aft as the prop goes to coarse pitch. Other engine and prop combinations stay flat/fine at best glide speed and the glide ratio suffers.

What does the 177RG do?

[EXDAC]

This video may be of interest if this accident was confirmed to be an engine fail turn back - https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/online-learning/safety-videos/the-runway-behind-you

(I can't post this without commenting that I think the advice to use best glide speed for the 45 degree bank turn is totally wrong. The 45 degree banked turn should be made just above 45 deg bank stall speed to minimize turn radius.)

[VH-MLE]

I am very sorry to hear of Richard’s passing (& the other pilot on board too!). I, like fdr, enjoyed his interview with Mark Levy regarding the P51 intermittent engine failure & the analysis of it, a great discussion on Startle Factor. I used that video as part of a course I created on dealing with flight emergencies for our own pilots. The statements “take three seconds & make the optimum decision, rather than one second & make a reactive decision” & "Startle Factor can make you do something dumb" are important messages in that video & great reminders for all of us...

For those who have not watched that video, I'd highly recommend it - it goes for approximately 30 minutes...

Regards to all & condolences to the family & friends of those involved in this tragedy...

VH-MLE

[treadigraph]

His calm, measured discussion of accidents and incidents contrasts sharply with the output of another regular YTer whose own recent accident did rather raise my eyebrows. Probably have een more of Richard's videos, once you've watched one... sort of person you'd enjoy a pint with.

[ehwatezedoing]

I have taught engine fail turn backs and you really have to know the aircraft to know if it is possible. In the PA-28-180 and AA-5A I have done them from 300 ft AGL with engine idle. In my constant speed prop Carbon Cub 500 ft was the absolute minimum. I would not attempt a real turn back with much less than twice those altitudes.

Careful there, performances with an engine at idle versus a stopped or windmilling prop are very different.

[EXDAC]

Careful there, performances with an engine at idle versus a stopped or windmilling prop are very different.

Which in one reason I said - "I would not attempt a real turn back with much less than twice those altitudes".

It requires flight test to know how a windmilling or stopped prop compares with idle prop and the results are likely to vary considerably for different aircraft and propeller types.

[Pilot DAR]

It requires flight test to know how a windmilling or stopped prop compares with idle prop and the results are likely to vary considerably for different aircraft and propeller types.

Very true! I've done some of this testing recently on a diesel conversion to a well known type. The prop change associated with the diesel installation changed the gliding characteristics. We're not finished the testing yet...

I changed from a two blade Hartzell to the three blade MT on my O-360 powered plane, and the gliding characteristics were changed considerably.

It is possible (though I speculate) that the Cardinal RG involved in this accident had a different propeller that original? I've seen a few three blade conversions on Cardinals. That could affect how the airplane glided, and would not be accounted for in the original POH. It is less common for prop change STC's to be accompanied with a flight manual supplement describing different glide, but it sure would be a good idea! And, as great an airplane as the Cardinal is, their wing airfoil is not the most ideal for low speed increased G maneuvering, it's just not what the Cardinal was designed to excel at...

[RatherBeFlying]

It's hard on the airframe, but a controlled landing in trees is survivable.

I don't know the winds at the time, but turning from a headwind into a tailwind can produce a loss of airspeed. Putting the nose down to maintain airspeed puts you closer to the ground and increases your descent rate at an inopportune time.

I would have much preferred to hear that they chose the trees and walked away.

[pattern_is_full]

Blancolirio on three fatal GA accidents this past weekend - Lake Placid accident is #2, starting at ~03:30 in the video.

Mostly posting because his analysis seems to contradict everything I posted - he says the TO was to SE (where there is another gully and heavy forest, not town). In light of recent posts, some interesting notes on 180° returns, aircraft performance, and trees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaM5xiTCMlc

[megan]

Video and analysis of an actual impossible turn event.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUpTNTXHihQ

[EXDAC]

Video and analysis of an actual impossible turn event.

So he nearly made it from about 100 ft agl and I said I could do it from 300 ft agl in a similar aircraft. All he had to do was forget the runway and go wings level at 50 ft and he would have had a safe landing on the airport. I'd say this video makes a good case for the turn back NOT being impossible. With the same technique (actually using 45 deg bank) he would have made the runway easily from 300 ft agl.

Please note that I'm not suggesting that anyone should turn back after engine fail. Very few pilots are comfortable making 45 degree bank turns just above stall speed because they never go there.

[BFSGrad]

NTSB Preliminary Report N545PZ (https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193166/pdf)

[EXDAC]

NTSB Preliminary Report N545PZ (https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/193166/pdf)

Thanks for the link. I didn't see any mention of flap and gear position as the accident aircraft closed on the camera ship. I would have expected the gear to have been retracted at that point but it appears it was extended when they crashed.

I don't know how 10 deg flap compares with clean for glide angle but extended gear isn't going to help.

I would have expected the Cardinal to have been fitted with at least one camera to document the photo shoot but I saw no mention of cameras being recovered from either aircraft.