BA pilot sacked for snorting coke from, err, well...and then trying to fly home.

[Auxtank]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/09/27/british-airways-pilot-sacked-snort-cocaine-topless-woman/
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1042x651/telemmglpict000350995997_16958217980490_trans_nvbqzqnjv4bqqv zuuqpflyliwib6ntmjwxj2n4t0e0c_rmqud7vmgos_4a2375f490699cb069 5872073f4ef0658b8f95f3.jpeg

Mike Beaton, of Devon, was suspended and flown home the following day as a passenger before undergoing a drug test at Heathrow. He was later sackedA British Airways pilot has been sacked after he divulged to a colleague that he had taken cocaine off a woman’s bare breasts before attempting to embark on a long-haul flight.

Mike Beaton, of Devon, is said to have gloated to a stewardess about an alcohol and drug-fuelled night out in Johannesburg before his return to London.

But the stewardess subsequently reported him, and BA then delayed the flight until an alternative pilot could be found.

Beaton was suspended and flown home the following day as a passenger before undergoing a drug test at Heathrow. Class A drugs were found in his system and he was sacked.

He was scheduled to co-pilot the 12-hour flight back to the UK after a period of rest in South Africa four weeks ago.

However, after revealing intimate details of his escapades over text message to a fellow BA employee, he was stopped from flying the plane.

The pilot described partying with two local men, a female Welsh holidaymaker and a young Spanish woman in the messages.

According to The Sun, the pilot said: “We all walk (stagger) back up to the hotel bar for ‘one last one before bed’. Welsh and one of these guys is getting on very well, but she’s told him that I’m her boyfriend. Couple of drinks in the bar, bit of snogging, and then we’re somehow all on our way to this dude’s flat.

“I’ve lost my shirt somewhere and one of the local lads produces a plate with a few lines of coke. So then there’s a debate about whose chest is the best to do a bump off. That’s the story of how I ended up snorting coke off a girl’s t--s in Joburg.”

British Airways said no risk was posed to passengers as a consequence of the pilot’s antics.

A spokesman told the Telegraph: “Safety is always our top priority. The matter was referred to the CAA [Civil Aviation Authority] and this individual no longer works for us.”

The airline sent out a letter to all staff members on Wednesday reminding them of its “zero-tolerance approach” to inappropriate behaviour

The letter, seen by The Telegraph, said: “We, and a number of our senior leaders, have been out and about in the business today and we know you feel as upset, angry and disappointed as we are about this behaviour, and the way it so publicly damages our company and overshadows the high standards that the vast majority of us deliver every single day.

“It is completely unacceptable for us to see our airline viewed in this way, and we are fully aware that it is not representative of who we are.”

It added that the incident should serve as a reminder to staff of their obligation to immediately report any concerns.

An airline source said BA was shocked by the behaviour of their former employee.

Speaking to the Telegraph, a source said: “This incident is hard to believe. A First Officer is trained rigorously and knows the law inside out. Their job is to protect passengers’ safety and this exhibited the exact opposite of that. The airline is in shock.”

A CAA spokesman said: “An airline must immediately inform us if a UK pilot has misused drink or drugs boarding, or being on board, an aircraft. In these cases we would immediately suspend the pilot’s medical which means they cannot fly.

“In most cases the pilot would have an assessment with an expert medical team and if they wished to return to flying then a comprehensive rehabilitation programme would be put in place. At the end of that process the medical would only be reinstated if we were completely satisfied.”

Also in The Sun today; https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24155861/british-airways-pilot-snorts-coke-naked-woman-fly-plane/


Silly man.

[HOVIS]

Bet he feels a right t*t!

[jolihokistix]

By editing out her breasts, they caused the old mind to run riot!

[Specaircrew]

I suspect that Mrs Beaton is cooking up a nice welcome home meal for him ;-)

[sudden twang]

The annoying thing about this is that it spotlights drugs and alcohol and detracts from the focus on fatigue.
Has there been an accident or incident in British civil aviation in the last 40years where drugs or alcohol have been citied as the/ contributing cause?

[FUMR]

What a total waste of a good career. What in heaven's name was going on in his mind?

[Auxtank]

The annoying thing about this is that it spotlights drugs and alcohol and detracts from the focus on fatigue.
Has there been an accident or incident in British civil aviation in the last 40years where drugs or alcohol have been citied as the/ contributing cause?

Certainly not making excuses for him but perhaps the fatigue and the drug/ alcohol incident are not unrelated.
I don't know the circumstances and I don't know the chap but the reporting of him "gloating" to the CC member pre-flight might have been a cry for help. Either way he's buggered himself now.

[Abrahn]

Who named him and provided the publicity shot? Internal HR processes should be confidential.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Who named him and provided the publicity shot? Internal HR processes should be confidential.
I’ve no doubt, his social media accounts are full of selfies and poses whilst at work……

[tdracer]

The annoying thing about this is that it spotlights drugs and alcohol and detracts from the focus on fatigue.
Has there been an accident or incident in British civil aviation in the last 40years where drugs or alcohol have been citied as the/ contributing cause?
Not British, but I suggest you take a glance at this:
Trans-Colorado Airlines Flight 2286 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Colorado_Airlines_Flight_2286)

The National Transportation Safety Board (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Transportation_Safety_Board) (NTSB) investigation determined the most probable cause of the accident was the crew's failure to follow the proper descent profile, and that recent cocaine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine) use by the captain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_in_command) was a contributing factor.

[Uplinker]

So........all that psychometric testing that airlines now insist on, is working well then ?

I can understand high spirits and perhaps a heady sense of euphoria in getting a job as a BA pilot - let's face it; who wouldn't ? - but what was this person thinking? Never mind taking Coke, (which is illegal, of course), but doing so as part of an on-duty flight crew laying over before flying back to base..................

Being able to do 25 maths questions about complex surface areas or volumes and the like in 12 minutes - (which pilots never have to do) - and similar for verbal reasoning, ditto; perhaps misses something rather vital;
i.e. is the candidate an immature idiot?

[Bradley Hardacre]

The annoying thing about this is that it spotlights drugs and alcohol and detracts from the focus on fatigue.
Has there been an accident or incident in British civil aviation in the last 40years where drugs or alcohol have been citied as the/ contributing cause?
If you spend the entire night drinking alcohol and using drugs, then you'll certainly increase your vulnerability to fatigue, worse still if time zones are involved

[SWBKCB]

Probably why there are rules against it...

[Flying Grasshopper]

A total disgrace to the profession, this immature idiot should not be allowed anywhere near a flight deck again.

[Tartiflette Fan]

Certainly not making excuses for him but perhaps the fatigue and the drug/ alcohol incident are not unrelated.
I don't know the circumstances and I don't know the chap but the reporting of him "gloating" to the CC member pre-flight might have been a cry for help. Either way he's buggered himself now.+

My opinion is that you are certanly seeking to do so. In the same vein he is far more likely to be an immature thril-seeker wth no regard for his responsibilituies.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Auxtank - really?? How can you think for one millisecond that some utter plonker sniffing a line of coke off some woman's breasts down route and then boasting about it in a text to a hostie is anything other than an act of total buffoonery? This guy is like so many people in life who simply do not realise the unbelievably privileged position they are in - until it's all taken away, which it surely is about to be. Becoming a BA first officer is essentially being given a lifelong opportunity, where the gift just keeps on giving until the day you retire. There is very little you can do to get fired, but our boy managed to find a way somehow. Getting another job in aviation will be very difficult indeed. If you ever wanted a salutary warning about how you can destroy everything in a moment, this is it.

[ShyTorque]

Bet he feels a right t*t!

Damn, I was going to post that! :E

[RichardJones]

Stupid boy.
Are BA not testing for substance abuse? Seems not.

[DaveReidUK]

A total disgrace to the profession, this immature idiot should not be allowed anywhere near a flight deck again.

I think that can be taken as read.

[V-Jet]

Two very important questions are left unanswered:
1) Where was Prince Andrew at the time?
2) Why wasn’t Russell Brand involved - or was he?

[langleybaston]

On the bright side, he is the right sort of idiot.
The wrong sort does what he did and fails to publicise it.

As SLF I don't want to sit behind either.

[tdracer]

On the bright side, he is the right sort of idiot.
The wrong sort does what he did and fails to publicise it.

As SLF I don't want to sit behind either.
What's really scary is - having known a few people who tried to ruin their lives with cocaine, it's unlikely this was a first time.
As for fatigue - after a cocaine bender - it's pretty much a given that he didn't sleep at all, so flying fatigued is a given.

[jumpseater]

What a total waste of a good career. What in heaven's name was going on in his mind?

Youth of today, can’t tell them anything. It’s like it goes in one nostril, comes straight out the other..

[Cat3508]

Bet he feels a right t*t!

Could have been the left one !

[nomorehelosforme]

Two very important questions are left unanswered:
1) Where was Prince Andrew at the time?
2) Why wasn’t Russell Brand involved - or was he?

I think you will find it was Prince Harry that also got himself in a little bother whilst in South Africa!

[krismiler]

The annoying thing about this is that it spotlights drugs and alcohol and detracts from the focus on fatigue.
Has there been an accident or incident in British civil aviation in the last 40years where drugs or alcohol have been citied as the/ contributing cause?

Does this mean it’s now safe to consume drugs and alcohol before flying ?

I'm interested in the legal position, could he be facing UK charges as the offence was committed in South Africa but a UK registered aircraft would have been involved ?

He’s lucky BA managed to sneak him out before the local police got onto the case.

[MechEngr]

The hero is the no-hesitation FA and a system that supports reporting.

[Chiefttp]

Question,
What’s with the two stripes on his sleeves. Do Two stripes denote an F/O at BA?

[Arm out the window]

What’s with the two stripes on his sleeves. Does Two stripes denote an F/O at BA?

Two lines, perhaps?

[wiggy]

Question,
What’s with the two stripes on his sleeves. Does Two stripes denote an F/O at BA?

..Yes....
SFO gets you the third.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Question,
What’s with the two stripes on his sleeves. Does Two stripes denote an F/O at BA?

Did somebody actually just ask that question on a Professional Pilots forum?? Good grief!

[sudden twang]

Does this mean it’s now safe to consume drugs and alcohol before flying ?

I'm interested in the legal position, could he be facing UK charges as the offence was committed in South Africa but a UK registered aircraft would have been involved ?

He’s lucky BA managed to sneak him out before the local police got onto the case.

No of course it doesn’t mean that.

After any accident or incident the pilots are tested whether alive or not.

There is no physical test for fatigue after an event. a theoretical one maybe.

Fears of drugs and alcohol misuse in pilots is headline news at the moment where the accident and incident data doesn’t support those fears.

Meanwhile pilots, controllers, engineers, dispatchers etc are working v hard indeed post covid with the associated fatigue levels.
That’s the greater risk IMHO but it’s not publicised widely.

[Chiefttp]

Did somebody actually just ask that question on a Professional Pilots forum?? Good grief!

Atlantic Explorer,
A little dramatic response on your part, however, as an American, the only crew members who wore two stripes were the “professional Flight Engineers” back in the 727, DC-8 , 707 days. First Officers wore 3 stripes. Captains obviously four. I sat sideways on a 727 for a year as a “new hire” flight engineer at my airline, but I still wore 3 stripes since I was a Pilot ( who just happened to be performing FE duties until I could upgrade to F/O) We had a few Professional Flight Engineers who wore two stripes since they were not pilots, and would never upgrade to F/O. We haven’t had Crew members who wear two stripes since the 1980’s. Now perhaps you can understand my confusion, and so sorry to cause you so much angst.😀

,

[CBSITCB]

The state of his necktie whilst on duty is a clue to his character. I thought the same about Boris.

[Jack D]

[QUOTE=Chiefttp;11510486]Atlantic Explorer,
A little dramatic response on your part, however, as an American, the only crew members who wore two stripes were the “professional Flight Engineers” back in the 727, DC-8 , 707 days. First Officers wore 3 stripes. Captains obviously four. I sat sideways on a 727 for a year as a “new hire” flight engineer at my airline, but I still wore 3 stripes since I was a Pilot ( who just happened to be performing FE duties until I could upgrade to F/O) We had a few Professional Flight Engineers who wore two stripes as they were not pilots and would never upgrade to F/O. We haven’t had Crew members who wear two stripes since the 1980’s. Now perhaps you can understand my confusion, and so sorry to cause you so much angst.😀

I wouldn’t worry about it Atlantic Explorer , despite his moniker, clearly doesn’t get out much .

[Uplinker]

Did somebody actually just ask that question on a Professional Pilots forum?? Good grief!

Not everyone here is a professional pilot, AE, - (especially the subject of this OP !). There are other airline industry members, and also interested non-pilots and passengers etc.

FWIW; the four airlines I have flown for designated a junior F/O with two stripes, a senior F/O with three, and a Captain with four. We never had flight engineers. (Cadets at flight school can have one stripe).

[V_2]

Fears of drugs and alcohol misuse in pilots is headline news at the moment where the accident and incident data doesn’t support those fears.

Meanwhile pilots, controllers, engineers, dispatchers etc are working v hard indeed post covid with the associated fatigue levels.
That’s the greater risk IMHO but it’s not publicised widely.

+1 from me. Recently ramp tested in Germany, asked for a breath test. Quick pass and a tick in the box for them. No questions about fatigue or rostering. The fact it was sector 4 on day 6 and I’d been up for 12 hours wasn’t even a consideration. Just to see if I had been drinking during the 3 previous sectors. So I asked, too difficult for them to evaluate and so it remains the elephant in the room. It’s probably not publicised enough because the airlines wouldn’t want shorter rostering, and “tired pilots” isn’t good enough clickbait for the media

[CW247]

Being able to do 25 maths questions about complex surface areas or volumes and the like in 12 minutes - (which pilots never have to do) - and similar for verbal reasoning, ditto; perhaps misses something rather vital;
i.e. is the candidate an immature idiot?

Would you kindly quit making sense?

[Uplinker]

Sorry, it's a particular bug-bear of mine.

Re: Fatigue - it's a very valid concern in our industry, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

If you are tired or even fatigued, what you need is long good quality sleep, not wasting sleep time by staying up half the night during a lay-over, ingesting alcohol and coke.

[cessnapete]

In BA ,stripes on the uniform are a Seniority thing, nothing to do with position on the Flight Deck.
All new joiners are two stripe First Officers. According to experience/time in the Company three stripes follow as a Senior F/O.
BA do not employ Second Officers as all pilots are fully trained to operate on two crew ops. Many Long haul routes are operated with just two pilots including the A380.(UK to East Coast USA ,Dubai etc.) The LHR/JNB A380 rotation carries three pilots for crew rest.
The old press photo of said pilot with just two stripes shows him in the intake of a Short Haul A320 type. By now on the A380 he would be an SFO with three stripes. Or was!!

[Chiefttp]

Not everyone here is a professional pilot, AE, - (especially the subject of this OP !). There are other airline industry members, and also interested non-pilots and passengers etc.

FWIW; the four airlines I have flown for designated a junior F/O with two stripes, a senior F/O with three, and a Captain with four. We never had flight engineers. (Cadets at flight school can have one stripe).

Thanks for the response Uplinker.and Cessnapete,
As I stated in my previous post, in the U.S. we haven’t had crew members who wear two-stripes for decades now. . One learns something new each day! BTW, I am a pilot, since 1983, much to Atlantic Explorers disbelief.

[FullWings]

Sorry, it's a particular bug-bear of mine.

Re: Fatigue - it's a very valid concern in our industry, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

If you are tired or even fatigued, what you need is long good quality sleep, not wasting sleep time by staying up half the night during a lay-over, ingesting alcohol and coke.
I kind of agree, but fatigue is not necessarily countered by a good night’s sleep. It is cumulative and insidious.

The travelling public is orders of magnitude more at risk from pilots who are tired and/or fatigued than ones that are off their heads due to substance abuse. I can pretty much guarantee you that right now round the World, if you took a detailed look there would be a very large amount crews on their 6th sector after a week of earlies, on the 12th night Atlantic this month or getting out of the bunk feeling like crap with 7hrs to go. In terms of risk management, this is where 99.999% of the problem lies but it gets lost in the noise while a lone individual doing something ultra-stupid makes the headlines.

As professionals and diurnal mammals, we accept that some of the time we will not be 100% but have developed coping mechanisms. People say that if you feel tired then stop, but that would mean a lot of aviation would cease, especially with modern rostering systems treating FTLs as a target not a limit. The effects of having a few too many the night before are indistinguishable from tiredness/fatigue so that’s why it doesn’t make much sense in reality to give so much attention to events that are pretty rare but ignore the gorilla in the room.

From what I read, the guy was stopped before he was able to operate the aircraft, and at the end of the day, if someone is obviously not right, then they get told to go back to the hotel / see a doctor / sort their life out / stay away from the aeroplane.

[fdr]

Sorry, it's a particular bug-bear of mine.

Re: Fatigue - it's a very valid concern in our industry, but that has nothing to do with this thread.

If you are tired or even fatigued, what you need is long good quality sleep, not wasting sleep time by staying up half the night during a lay-over, ingesting alcohol and coke.

I don't see the issue, he was stood down and got an excellent sleep returning to the firing squad.

[Salusa]

What a total waste of a good career. What in heaven's name was going on in his mind?

His little mind?

[blind pew]

In the old days non military started as second officers with one stripe..after two years a second stripe as acting first officer then followed by first officer after another 2 years….three stripes was senior first officer and needed an ATPL after yet another 2 years..4 stripes came after 20 years for some of us.
The aesops fable disaster Staines fable produced by national geographic upgraded the two second officers to two and three stripes…IMHO it was to deflect the criticism in the Lane inquiry from BEA management.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

BA is totally out of order here. Instead of sacking him they should be supporting him through his rehabilitation in a drug treatment programme before returning him to his flying duties. Disgusting BA!!!

[Bergerie1]

MOLG, What utter bollux.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

MOLG, What utter bollux.

GOTCHA :p

[SOPS]

What a total waste of a good career. What in heaven's name was going on in his mind?

I think a lot of booze, drugs and sex.

[Kiltrash]

Assuming BA suffered additional costs due to delays, refreshments or hotel costs once found guilty by the court of BA will they seek damages from him?

[atakacs]

Two very important questions are left unanswered:
1) Where was Prince Andrew at the time?
2) Why wasn’t Russell Brand involved - or was he?
Missing the Trump angle too.

[blind pew]

BA is totally out of order here. Instead of sacking him they should be supporting him through his rehabilitation in a drug treatment programme before returning him to his flying duties. Disgusting BA!!!
I had a run in with a command failure who rotated before V1 during my very long upgrading in SR..he was sacked but reinstated after he revealed he was an alcoholic ..dried out in a clinic and worked in the technical department until two years after the incident then offered an Airbus course.. IMHO a far better way to treat staff who obviously have health problems rather than hanging them out to dry which occasionally leads to suicide. It also reduces the risk of hiding addictions from the company rather than seeking help.

[nonsense]

BA is totally out of order here. Instead of sacking him they should be supporting him through his rehabilitation in a drug treatment programme before returning him to his flying duties. Disgusting BA!!!

I realise you're not serious, but reading the texts with which he hung himself out to dry, it seems this was the first time he had used cocaine.
He might (probably does) have an alcohol problem, but he doesn't appear to have a cocaine addiction problem, he has an impulse control issue. Not only was he doing singularly stupid stuff while he thought he was "in Vegas", he boasted about it.

He has shown us something of his character, and intoxication is more a symptom than a cause. Rehab won't fix irresponsible ****. Even drug and alcohol free I wouldn't trust him with my pushbike, never mind millions of dollars worth of aircraft and hundreds of lives.

[punkalouver]

Certainly will put a different picture in my mind in the future when I hear the term Line Abreast Formation.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Inevitably, there will be a range of opinions when discussing an issue such as this. They will always be the outliers – there will be the ones that feel that he was a ‘poor lost soul’ and his mother made him do it and we should show mercy. At the other end, there will be those who are at the ‘hang ‘em/flog ‘em’ end of the scale! I would humbly suggest that regardless of where you sit on the scale, there are certain absolutes that guarantee removal from a career in aviation. One of those is the taking of Class A drugs. There and then, on the spot, your career is over. It does not really matter why you did it, but the fact is you did it. Your career as an airline pilot has ended.

[EEngr]

With or without an airplane?

[tdracer]

One question for those who seem to think a pilot indulging in a coke and alcohol fueled bender the night before being at the pointy end of a long-haul flight is being overblown.

Would you willingly be SLF on that flight knowing that about the pilot?

Because I sure as hell wouldn't.

[V_2]

Would you willingly be SLF on that flight knowing that about the pilot? Because I sure as hell wouldn't.
Of course no one would. But what about being SLF on a flight were the pilots are abusing another stimulant drug, the only way they can force themselves to get through their 6th early in a row ahead of 4 sector bad weather day? Infact they are so hooked they will use this drug several times daily. Cabin crew even get it for them.

the drug of course being caffeine but it’s addition and use is widespread. 1000s of users a day. Sometimes even me. Airlines even encourage it to avoid fatigue offloads! Yet no one is worried or concerned. Of course I know there’s differences but you will see my point

[tdracer]

Of course no one would. But what about being SLF on a flight were the pilots are abusing another stimulant drug, the only way they can force themselves to get through their 6th early in a row ahead of 4 sector bad weather day? Infact they are so hooked they will use this drug several times daily. Cabin crew even get it for them.

the drug of course being caffeine but it’s addition and use is widespread. 1000s of users a day. Sometimes even me. Airlines even encourage it to avoid fatigue offloads! Yet no one is worried or concerned. Of course I know there’s differences but you will see my point
Have you (or someone you know) tried coke? I'm embarrassed to admit I did a couple of times in my misspent youth - fortunately I didn't particularly like it and never did it again, but I knew people who did. The effect on them was devastating.
To compare the effect of coke with coffee is simply ludicrous. One gives you a mild boost - the other leaves you totally wired for many hours, then lets you down with a resounding crash. If that crash occurs while you a trying to do something like drive (or pilot an aircraft) the effect can be catastrophic. Reportedly, the left seat pilot in the Trans-Colorado accident I linked earlier was right in the middle of that cocaine crash during final approach - which left him totally incapable of responding when the right seat pilot totally botched the approach and flew into the ground.

[Euclideanplane]

the drug of course being caffeine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQ_3sBZEm0

[Desertweasel]

the other leaves you totally wired for many hours, then lets you down with a resounding crash.

More like 20-30 minutes...an hour at the most if you have no previous experience, are you at your best afterwards,? No of course not, but coke that gets you high for many hours is an impossible boast of many a dodgy dealer, so unless the poor fool was doing it in the briefing room, he was likely impaired but not high. Still obviously unacceptable.

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Two very important questions are left unanswered:
1) Where was Prince Andrew at the time?

At Pizza Express in Woking. Not sweating. :ok:

[Stationair8]

Things go better with Coke, was the advertising jingle from the70’s!

Obviously the man got his liquids mixed up with his powders.

[V-Jet]

At Pizza Express in Woking. Not sweating. :ok:

I was wrong to forget Harry and Trump - but that comment is gold:):)

[tdracer]

More like 20-30 minutes...an hour at the most if you have no previous experience, are you at your best afterwards,? No of course not, but coke that gets you high for many hours is an impossible boast of many a dodgy dealer, so unless the poor fool was doing it in the briefing room, he was likely impaired but not high. Still obviously unacceptable.
Certainly not my experience - after one hit I was literally up and unable to sleep all night.
Read the Trans-Colorado report - the crash occurred roughly 12 hours after he last consumed cocaine. And toxicology tests confirmed a significant presence of cocaine in his blood.

[inbalance]

Did somebody actually just ask that question on a Professional Pilots forum?? Good grief!
your world seems to be very small.
There are many countries, where any FO is wearing 3 stripes.

[megan]

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/256861-pilot-jailed-alcoholism-pilots-3.html?highlight=prouse#post3028059 My name is Lyle Prouse and I was the infamous Northwest Airlines Captain back in March of '90 who was arrested on Northwest Flight 650 (FAR-MSP) for flying drunk, along with the copilot and second officer.

Subsequently, I was fired by NWA, stripped of my flight certificates, and lost my medical due to alcoholism. I became a national pariah, was sent to federal prison for 16 months, served 14, and went broke within 30 days of the arrest. Furthermore, the trial judge put sanctions on me to insure I'd never fly again due to my age (51 at the time).

I want to be clear about a number of things. First, I make no excuses, I accept complete responsibility, and I openly acknowledge that everything that happened to me was fair and appropriate. Period.

Having said that, let me turn to some of the comments offered by a number of pilots in this forum. Some of those comments indicate some knowledge and understanding of the subject of alcohol/alcoholism and some indicate ignorance bolstered by arrogance.

When I talk about alcoholism I separate the issues between the acts and behavior (and the consequences that flow from that) - and the disease itself.

Being an alcoholic does not relieve me of responsibility for what I do nor does it grant me any immunity or excuse anything. Anytime I commit an unlawful act, alcoholic or not, it's incumbent upon me to accept the consequences of that act.

It should be noted that while alcoholism is not an excuse for behavior it very clearly explains a lot of it in the case of the alcoholic. It might surprise some to know that since I got sober over 16 yrs ago I've never flown drunk or received a DUI... Nor have I done any of the shameful, disgraceful, offensive, and embarrassing things that drunks routinely do.

One of THE first steps of recovery demands acceptance of personal responsibility and being accountable. So the talking heads, Bill O'Reilly for one, who declare that the only reason for treating alcoholism as a disease is so those with it can escape responsibility, is absurd beyond words. Those ideas only come from non-alcoholics...in my experience.

I have been sober since the date of my arrest, over 16 years and some nine months now. I am active in recovery, speak all over the United States and Canada (for free, of course), have been involved with virtually every major airline in their alcohol programs. I am of Native American heritiage and I've spoken on reservations in the US and Canada, and at Native American sobriety conventions.

I served out my prison time, came out broke and disgraced, and eventually earned back each of the four licenses I needed, commencing with the private and doing it, quite literally, from the ground up...after the judge miraculously lifted the sanctions on me. I did it the same way I stay sober, one day at a time, one thing at a time, one step at a time, and one license at a time.

I'd never had a private license - I came out of the Marine Corps as a Vietnam vet and quickly acquired a Com'l ticket and inst rating after a quickie test...and was hired 3 weeks later by NWA (Aug '68). I had gone in as a barely 18 yr old private and I left 11 1/2 yrs later as a Captain and jet pilot with an excellent reputation.

Not quite four years after my arrest and imprisonment, the Pres/CEO of NWA, Mr. John Dasburg, personally reinstated me to full flight status at NWA. It was an act of personal courage on his part that the word "extraordinary" doesn't even begin to approach.

I retired honorably at age 60, in Sept '98, as a 747 captain, having done all I could to fully vindicate all those who had believed in me. Additionally, the tough Minnesota judge who tried and sent me to prison suggested, as I retired, that I apply for a presidential pardon and said he'd support it even tho he'd NEVER supported a petition for pardon in his 16 yrs on the bench. Two years later I rec'd a Pres Pardon - a HUGE, life altering event for a federal felon!

To one contributor who said alcoholism is a lifetime disease and implied we who are recovering are delicately balanced on the razor's edge and might relapse anytime, I say he is only partially correct. It is a lifetime disease, that's why it's called Alcohol-ISM and not Alcohol-WASM. But so is diabetes and a number of other chronic diseases. And, yes, some never make it, never recover, and never stay sober - and they die (both my parents took this disease to their graves).

But to discount the millions of us around the world who live good, productive, solid lives in recovery displays a shallow and ignorant way of thinking. And to say no alcoholic should ever be trusted in the cockpit because they might relapse is absurd. Anyone in the cockpit might keel over, have a stroke, heart attack, brain anueryism, or some other possible problem and it's nonsense thinking to make a blanket pronouncement and condemnation of everyone based on what "might" happen.

Many don't make it. But many don't survive cancer, heart disease, and other calamities of life. The airlines have THE most successful rate of alcoholism recovery among any group, virtually double the norm in the rest of our society. And they do a good job of weeding out those who will not or cannot get sober - and that's as it should be.

I'm well aware that there are those, still today, who think I should have been put against a wall and shot; and that I most certainly NEVER should have been allowed to fly again. Fortunately, I don't think that reflects most of the heart and soul of the American character who, traditionally, support and encourage the underdog and applaud comebacks.

Alcoholism is a treatable, recoverable disease. Today there are over 3500 recovering alcoholic pilots flying for airlines. One of the leading docs I know (who's worked in the aviation/alcoholism field for over 30 yrs) says, "When I get on the plane I glance in the cockpit. If it's a face I recognize, I breathe a sigh of relief. If it's one I don't...then I sit in the back and wonder."

To each his/her own. I doubt anything I've said here will change any minds and may only provoke further debate. My only purpose here is to speak the truth as I know it and do it quietly and clearly.

Being an alcoholic was something I first viewed as a disgraceful, shameful, stigmatic curse. It has evolved into the greatest thing that ever occurred to me because of what it has forced me to do. My kids won't have to watch me die a grim, lingering alcoholic death, as I had to with my parents. My life today is geared toward giving back more than I ever took, making amends where ever possible, and being constantly grateful for the joy of sobriety and the brightness of each day.

What I have expressed here today is not something unique to me. It is shared by virtually every recovering person I know. I just came home a few minutes ago from speaking in Denver last night. As is always the case, I met people who inspire me and make me glad I was forced into a program of recovery I NEVER would have willingly accepted when I was drinking.

Blue skies,
Lyle Prouse
Ex federal inmate 04478-041
Ret'd NWA Capt 086140
Marine Capt 086099The very same gentleman made the following post on another forum yesterday commenting on this BA incident.You can Google my name if you want the full story, but I was THE first airline pilot in American aviation history to go to prison for flying an airliner under the influence of alcohol Norrthwest Airlines Flight 650, Mar 8, 1990) Everything that happened to me was fair and appropriate – termination, disgrace, imprisonment, and losing everything.

I’m an alcoholic, now sober for 33 yrs, ever since my arrest on Mar 8, 1990. I retired as a 747 Capt for the same airline I disgraced even though I never fought my termination…and 8 yrs later I rec’d a Pres Pardon which was led by the judge who sent me to prison, and I never asked for that, either.

I believe in consequences – but your comment about this pilot’s “judgment” indicates a total lack of understanding about alcoholism/addiction which is a disease that directly affects judgment. It’s not possible for someone who’s impaired to understand the nature of the impairment until and unless some event occurs which forces some kind of outside intervention. Alcoholism/addiction is primarily a brain disease and I understand it well.

I have NEVER said or believed that my alcoholism is an excuse…for ANYTHING – but it IS the cause for behavior and misconduct that occurs as a result. Once it’s addressed and dealt with, however, that behavior can be changed. Over 6800 recovering airline pilots have been returned to America’s cockpits since 1973, and there has NEVER been even ONE single accident or incident involving any of them. I make NO excuses for this British Airways pilot, but IF he’s able to address his problems he can change his life; whether he gets the second chance I got is yet to be seen. But pilots, mechanics, employees of ANY kind are usually good people who should not be tossed on a scrap heap as disposable entities IF they can safely be returned to the workplace as good, decent, productive people. Some will strongly disagree with me, but I’ve lived in the world of recovery for a long time and I’ve seen the miracles, which are consistent.

[blind pew]

Great post Megan<br />in the early days of BA we inherited a Transvestite from Cambrian who would go on drug fuelled gay binges and turn up for work in high heals. I checked in behind him in queens one day; He was wearing a navy woman’s trouser suit with a page boy haircut as my wife supported, A friend did a nightstop with him and after the crew party they broke into the hotel swimming pool which was relatively civilised affair with every one wearing swimming costumes ..he wore a polka dot bikini …those that flew with him when he wasn’t high said he flew well but a decision was made to get rid of him rather than help him and eventually they managed to fail him on the simulator.<br />In my early days we nearly crashed as the captain and probably most of the rest of the crew were still drunk from the last nights shenanigans especially the chief steward who was attempting to fly the departure in IMC - in those days it was just accepted and hidden..we had one chief steward who attempted to open the forward door in flight..was eventually put in the cockpit jump seat but on approach decided to give the captain a bear hug which ended up with the route ex captain along with P3 restraining him whilst a mate did the landing; the best bit he proved that you could land a trident and do your own throttles. The chief was sacked and died a few months later from his alcoholism, everyone new of his problem but the company never helped.<br />Never tried coke but have had family members that did; extremely difficult whilst one has got their life sorted the other nearly killed me, both had relatively privileged upbringings but social pressures led them into addictions that they couldn’t handle. One after self mutilation I tried to get help or committed - was told by the consultant psychiatrist only after three genuine suicide attempts.<br />Like alcoholics it’s often well hidden until too late.<br />

[Bergerie1]

Megan, That was a superb post.

The problem with forums like PPRuNe is that individuals on here are free to comment anonymously about issues when they do not know the facts. In the case of the BA first officer we know only what has been reported in the media - and we all know how innacurate that can be at times. In my past life, I was a flight manager and can state that we always tried to help, and have treated, a pilot who was suffering from alcoholism, and I can think of several individuals who returned to flying and finished up having successful careers.

Furthermore, I remember one such individual who was treated, recovered, was appointed a training captain and who helped us to help other pilots with alcohol problems. He was a good man and a good pilot. Without giving anything away, there were times when I personally adjusted the roster without anyone knowing so that he could fly with someone suspected of alcohol problems. This was done so that he could have the opportuity to talk with the individual concerned and discuss the help that was available.

There were other times when it was necessary to use 'tough love'. By that I mean to suspend an individual's operations certificate and take him off flying until they had completed a course of treatment and retraining. We had several successful outcomes but never talked about them. If the individual concerned wanted to talk about it, that was their prerogative. We never did.

And I know of several other airlines who had similar schemes. It can be done and was done.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Trust me - I know plenty about prison, drugs and alcoholism. I also believe in redemption wherever possible - something very rare in prison life. I also draw a distinction between Class A drug and alcohol misuse - as do all employers I know of. Find me a pilot with a similar story of redemption back to flight status who has been banned for Class A drug misuse on duty. I also know that taking a risk with the re-employment of someone with a drug problem is something passengers are very uncomfortable with. That, arguably, is what determines the outcome. I stand by my view that Class A drug use whilst on duty is one of the absolute deadly sins of aviation and invariably results in the end of the participant’s flying career.

[Chiefttp]

While the drug use by this BA pilot is what concerns most people, there is a greater “crime” in my opinion. His utter lack of judgement is the egregious aspect of this incident. Think about this particular scenario, at a critical point in the evening, the Pilot had a choice to make between 2 options,

1 Snort a line of Cocaine off a strange women’s tit and enjoy a 20 minute HIGH……..

2. Excuse himself and walk away from a rapidly evolving dangerous situation.

The fact that he chose option 1 speaks volumes about his judgement and is the real “crime” of this incident. He chose to
Destroy a career, that’s taken years of hard work and dedication to achieve. Destroy a Marriage, Destroy his family, Destroy any respect he had with Co-workers, friends and family, and finally face Possible criminal charges to include Prison.


Fixed it

[dejapoo]

The state of his necktie whilst on duty is a clue to his character. I thought the same about Boris.

calm down, Nigel

[Sue Vêtements]

Perhaps the story and the posts above miss a very important point.

According to The Sun, :yuk: :bored: the pilot said: “We all walk (stagger) back up to the hotel bar for ‘one last one before bed’. Welsh and one of these guys is getting on very well, but she’s told him that I’m her boyfriend. Couple of drinks in the bar, bit of snogging, and then we’re somehow all on our way to this dude’s flat.

He's actually very fortunate to have avoided waking up in a bathtub full of ice minus a kidney ... or two

[blind pew]

I have a mate who owes a successful end to his career to Bergerie who had been sacked after a confrontation with an over zealous security guard ex RAF regiment who had been punched in the face that morning by a captain…unfortunately my mate had taken the p1ss out of the masons and rather than getting a letter on his file he was dismissed for industrial misconduct..the union got him his job back by threatening to ground the airline..and a couple of years later Bergerie kindly (and justly imho) reversed the decision that he wasn’t suitable for command.

[Hearmenow]

Personally, I think the Pilot going to Africa to shag kids let BA down more.

If I bumped into Margot Robbie whilst drunk and she asked me if I wanted to do the same as the BA Pilot..... I'd struggle to say no, bet that's just me though:rolleyes:.
Absolutely 100% certain I would not be stupid enough to tell CC the full details and then expect it to remain quiet.

[421dog]

Perhaps the story and the posts above miss a very important point.



He's actually very fortunate to have avoided waking up in a bathtub full of ice minus a kidney ... or two


😊we don’t really do that😎

[Uplinker]

Thank you to Capt. Prouse for providing an insight to alcoholism. Well if this (BA) guy is an alcoholic, I hope he gets some help.

However, boasting about his antics on social media does not seem to me to be the actions of an alcoholic, who I thought tended to be secretive about such things?

I agree; his lack of judgement and lack of responsible thinking while at work - given his job - is what is really worrying about this.

He is young, and a two striper, so presumably has fairly recently joined BA and would have been drug tested and screened on joining ? Developing into an alcoholic from then to now seems to be short time frame - barely time to have accumulated problems with relationships, divorce, housing etc, one might think ? - especially while he had the security of a BA job and income.

Is seems very odd to me that someone clever enough to pass an ATPL course and the British Airways pilot assessment process would almost immediately engage in such questionable behaviours and substances - and do so while actually being at work, (as opposed to privately at home). How many other young new pilots share this mindset?

[Bergerie1]

BP, As the HM the Queen said, "Recollections may vary".

[Lonewolf_50]

If I bumped into Margot Robbie whilst drunk and she asked me if I wanted to do the same as the BA Pilot..... I'd struggle to say no, bet that's just me though:rolleyes:. You probably are not alone. Absolutely 100% certain I would not be stupid enough to tell CC the full details and then expect it to remain quiet. That strikes me as this gent's second mistake. (The first was not being mindful of his duty status).
However, boasting about his antics on social media does not seem to me to be the actions of an alcoholic, who I thought tended to be secretive about such things? Own goal, in any event.
I agree; his lack of judgement and lack of responsible thinking while at work - given his job - is what is really worrying about this. Indeed. The "first mistake" I allude to up there.
Is seems very odd to me that someone clever enough to pass an ATPL course and the British Airways pilot assessment process would almost immediately engage in such questionable behaviours and substances - and do so while actually being at work, (as opposed to privately at home). How many other young new pilots share this mindset? Personnel departments in most airlines may wonder that as well.

[beardy]

It see to me that the attraction and allure of flying is very appealing to those of us who are 'risk takers' and have a high level of 'acceptable' risk. To be professional we have to learn how to manage the aviation risks. That can be interpreted as being risk averse. There is a theory that in such situations the personally 'acceptable' level of risk is compensated for by an increase in risky behaviour elsewhere in our lives, fast cars, fast lifestyle etc...
No excuse and should be manageable.

[beamer]

Scruffy looking beggar……

[Abrahn]

Is seems very odd to me that someone clever enough to pass an ATPL course and the British Airways pilot assessment process

I don't know about the BA assessment process, but an ATPL is a fairly middling achievement - below the standard required of, for example, a nurse, paramedic or physiotherapist and about level with an osteopath.
​​
If you look at the census statistics that puts an ATPL holder somewhere in the bottom 50%-65% of the over-16 English population, i.e. just above average.

[krismiler]

This isn’t the 1970s anymore, higher standards are expected and we are under much greater scrutiny than before. With social media, any in flight antics can be all over the internet before you land at your destination.

Crew behaviour down route can leave a lot to be desired. Noisy, drunken room parties disturbing other hotel guests, even incidents of letting off fire extinguishers in corridors have come to light.

Imagine the reaction if a South African Airways pilot was found to have consumed illegal drugs before operating a flight departing from London and the airline had paxed him home before the authorities could get involved. AFAIK taking class A drugs is an offence in SA, and BA could find themselves in trouble if local laws weren’t followed when dealing with a case like this.

[RichardJones]

I don't know about the BA assessment process, but an ATPL is a fairly middling achievement - below the standard required of, for example, a nurse, paramedic or physiotherapist and about level with an osteopath.
​​
If you look at the census statistics that puts an ATPL holder somewhere in the bottom 50%-65% of the over-16 English population, i.e. just above average.

I agree with you there.

When I attended a 10 week course for the UK ATPL theory, in the 1970's it was different. I don't consider myself that smart. I had 14 subjects to pass. It was written answers then. Now I believe it's knowing a question and answer bank of all possible questions and answers.

What you do need, is the drive and tenacity to succeed. I've seen university graduates drop out of these courses. It's a calling if you like.

Taking in knowledge and coughing it up, on demand is not proof of intelligence IMHO. Innovators? Yes they are smart.

I consider a London Taxi driver for example as being way smarter than I. Try doing the London knowledge.
We are all not all wired the same.

[JustStartingPPL]

What a way to completely ruin your life

[Jonty]

I don't know about the BA assessment process, but an ATPL is a fairly middling achievement - below the standard required of, for example, a nurse, paramedic or physiotherapist and about level with an osteopath.
​​
If you look at the census statistics that puts an ATPL holder somewhere in the bottom 50%-65% of the over-16 English population, i.e. just above average.

when it was around the ATPL was equivalent to an NVQ Level 4, which is first year degree level.

so a bit more than just above average.

[RichardJones]

when it was around the ATPL was equivalent to an NVQ Level 4, which is first year degree level.

so a bit more than just above average.

What a way to completely ruin your life

Yes. Drugs ruin peoples lives, in more ways than one.
Some Asian countries have a tough approach to this problem. Singapore for example, Anyone caught with more than 10grams, it's a mandatory death sentence.
The down side is, if someone doesn't like you, you maybe become an unsuspecting maul.
Watch your backs. Not to mention bags.

[pax britanica]

While airline piolts dont seem to be Skygods any more-if they ever were , and its still some thing that not everyone can do. Itis a huge fiancial challnge for a start, some peopel just dont have the right inate abilities to judge height sna speeds which si kind of imprtant for landing and I think youare overlookign that fact that many jobs have become easier or more accessible in the last 25 years

[Boeingdriver999]

I think what is more interesting to observe is that he felt comfortable detailing his behaviour in a written/recorded format to a fellow crew member within the same time frame as the trip/return leg. To me; that says a lot more about the company culture surrounding such behaviour.

If this was an outlier in terms of actions/bahviour then wouldn't they know well enough to keep it to themselves and not broadcast it in a format that can be recorded? The contents of the texts appear to me as if it is the bragging report of some regular antics down-route.

*I'm leaving in the spelling error because it made me laugh :8

[BFSGrad]

I think what is more interesting to observe is that he felt comfortable detailing his behaviour in a written/recorded format to a fellow crew member within the same time frame as the trip/return leg. To me; that says a lot more about the company culture surrounding such behaviour.

Thought the same. Odd that a pilot (and a married man with a child) would be at ease detailing this type of behavior to a fellow crew member.

Throughout this topic, there’s been a discussion about the evils of alcohol/drug addiction. I’ve not seen any information establishing this pilot had an addiction to either. You can abuse drugs and alcohol without being an addict.

Does BA specifically and the airlines in general conduct random drug testing? If so, how many times can a crew member expect random testing during a year? During my time in the military, I was tested at least a couple times a year and some times as much as twice per month.

[bobward]

I question people's common sense when they not only do stupid things, but then feel they have to tell the world they've done it.

[tdracer]

Thought the same. Odd that a pilot (and a married man with a child) would be at ease detailing this type of behavior to a fellow crew member.

Throughout this topic, there’s been a discussion about the evils of alcohol/drug addiction. I’ve not seen any information establishing this pilot had an addiction to either. You can abuse drugs and alcohol without being an addict.

Most alcoholics become quite good at hiding their addiction (I've known a few - including my oldest sister (it ultimately killed her due to cirrhosis of the liver). In my sister's case she'd fallen off the wagon for at least a month before even her husband noticed - and he was watching for it.
Which suggests that this fellow - while it may not have been a one-off - wasn't experienced at this sort of behavior.

[Jack D]

I don't know about the BA assessment process, but an ATPL is a fairly middling achievement - below the standard required of, for example, a nurse, paramedic or physiotherapist and about level with an osteopath.
​​
If you look at the census statistics that puts an ATPL holder somewhere in the bottom 50%-65% of the over-16 English population, i.e. just above average.

I hold an engineering degree from a respected UK ( London) university and an ATPL issued in the 60,,s . I think you are referring to only the written part of this license ? There is rather more to it than that , and where do these “ statistics” come from ? Nurse , paramedic , laudable jobs but surely no comparison ..
nonetheless times change and academically the license itself ( written part) has become far less rigorous as have most school exams . I knocked out the US ATPL exam after about a week of study . None of this is the point, the written part of the license opens a door, not all are able to pass through the door to achieve their dreams.

[RichardJones]

I hold an engineering degree from a respected UK ( London) university and an ATPL issued in the 60,,s . I think you are referring to only the written part of this license ? There is rather more to it than that , and where do these “ statistics” come from ? Nurse , paramedic , laudable jobs but surely no comparison ..
nonetheless times change and academically the license itself ( written part) has become far less rigorous as have most school exams . I knocked out the US ATPL exam after about a week of study . None of this is the point, the written part of the license opens a door, not all are able to pass through the door to achieve their dreams.

Fair comment.

[Jack D]

Apologies RJ , I should have directed my response to Abrahn ; so you see I still have finger trouble despite all those licenses etc .
Agree with what you say , many have fallen by the wayside despite their academic prowess . In the US generally speaking a bachelors degree is needed to join a major airline or officers, military training . perhaps this is a recognition that a certain work ethic is required as evidence that you may pass the training . You alluded to tenacity and a will to succeed , quite right in my opinion !
One of the very best operators I ever flew with was trained as a carpenter and went to night school to attain A levels so that he might be “ selectable “ .. and he could put up shelves !

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Drug taking is no respecter of background or education. I would also add that drug misuse is different from alcohol misuse due to the fact that most pilots drink alcohol. That is widely accepted as ‘normal’, but we as a community are expected to operate within the limitations laid down legally and by our employers (10 hours bottle to throttle etc). Drug taking for recreational purposes, however, is banned - that’s it. Everyone knows the deal and there is a zero tolerance policy in force at any airline in the world that I have ever heard of. Taking drugs is the third rail of aviation behaviour - touch it and you are dead.

Like everyone else here I am simply aghast that the pilot in question would not have questioned the wisdom of texting one of his cabin crew to boast about taking cocaine. Most people would have recognised it as career suicide. It does make you wonder about the culture that may have prevailed - simply mind-blowing naivety, stupidity and overall lack of judgment.

[Abrahn]

I think you are referring to only the written part of this license ? There is rather more to it than that , and where do these “ statistics” come from ? Nurse , paramedic , laudable jobs but surely no comparison .
.

I was referring to both the exams and the practical requirements. The "statistics" come from the Office of National Statistics (https://www.ons.gov.uk/datasets/TS067/editions/2021/versions/3). It is interesting to see the dramatic change in national average academic performance between the 2011 and 2021 census.

Nurse and paramedic are both 3/4 year degree level qualifications with embedded work experience. ATPL is roughly 18 months, so substantially less

[JumpJumpJump]

While the drug use by this BA pilot is what concerns most people, there is a greater “crime” in my opinion. His utter lack of judgement is the egregious aspect of this incident. Think about this particular scenario, at a critical point in the evening, the Pilot had a choice to make between two options,

1. Destroy a career, that’s taken years of hard work and dedication to achieve. Destroy a Marriage, Destroy his family, Destroy any respect he had with Co-workers, friends and family, and finally face Possible criminal charges to include Prison.

OR

2. Snort a line of Cocaine off a strange women’s tit and enjoy a 20 minute HIGH……..

The fact that he chose option 2, speaks volumes about his judgement and is the real “crime” of this incident.

did you mean to phrase it this way?

[Right20deg]

BA has had a serious issue with cabin crew using various opportunities to drop the flight deck right in the doo doo. Suspensions, internal reports, some ending up in court. They used to stay in separate hotels down route in my day.
Emirates runs on crew fear. Fact. Just don't get caught and reported.

[Loose rivets]

In the days when one usually had a CPL some years before the ALTP exams, I sat next to an Oxbridge physics graduate at Cass College. He was stressed. "It's not that any one thing is very complicated, just that there is SO much of it."

The ALTP was a traditional Town Hall venue, with invigilators taking their jobs very seriously. I still hear them. "Pens down gentlemen please." Hah, I recall one glancing at my Met where I'd moved a low pressure area over a bit. "Sometimes the first ideas are the best." Aaaaaagh. I still passed.

My CPL had been weeks of crisis. I'd left a post war Secondary school at 14 with no exams passed whatsoever. There were so many add-ons. Lighthouses! A room full of chaps clicking stopwatches. RT licence. IR simulator, an upgraded D4 Link trainer in Shell Mex house. This had to be passed before one could turn up at CAFU Stansted. Law. I'd forgotten Law. Thank goodness I passed that as it was out of the way forever. Type rating. Performance A. 2 1/2 hours. I wonder what I've forgotten.

Some years later I needed an ATP for a 727 operation. 6 hours, finished in 1. I spent 30mins checking and writing a note saying their performance question, carrying 2 points, had no correct answer. I got 98 points. A bloke at Braniff said 'That's why no one ever gets 100% in the ATP."
I'd love to know if I was correct.

When Eagle went bust I was reading the Sunday Times, and spotted an ad with a lovely picture of a Trident. My heart sank as I realised I didn't come close to qualifying. It sank even further when I noticed the ad was for cleaners.

[macdo]

This guy showed the stupidity of youth, suicidal stupidity to share the details with crew. As someone above said, it's not he 70's or 80's and everyone is watching and waiting for you to drop the ball. I doubt that many commercial pilots of my age wouldn't be able to tell you hair-raising stories of what they (or someone else) did in the past. What this guy did was stupid and unprofessional, but we were all young once and mostly we didn't get caught. I expect he'll fly again if he wants to, it certainly never stopped a couple of functioning alcoholics that I knew eons ago.

[blorgwinder]

Two points, what does he do for an encore performance?

And will the Union and he plead for support, help, intervention and a start over ala a US carrier way back in the day

[Chiefttp]

Blorgwinder,

I don’t know of any incidents where illegal drug use was cause for termination, where the employee was let back on the roster. Alchohol, yes, but not an illegal drug.

[PC767]

BA has had a serious issue with cabin crew using various opportunities to drop the flight deck right in the doo doo. Suspensions, internal reports, some ending up in court. They used to stay in separate hotels down route in my day.
Emirates runs on crew fear. Fact. Just don't get caught and reported.

So, cabin crew looking after their passengers should allow a coked up pilot to fly them, because to raise an issue would get them the sack. No organisation should be run on fear.

I wonder who the cabin crew reported the texts to. I'd wager that the aircraft commander was made aware of the texts from their crew and made the decision to stand the flight down, abd report why to LHR OPs.

[Gordomac]

Just a thought ; was the cc male or female ? To a fellow male, might have just been a boast. to a female., might have been not only a boast but a kinda tease. You know,; ' look what you missed by turning down my advances' (?)

Either way,it placed the cc in a dreadful position and given the 'drop the FD in the poo' culture, very prevelent these days .Without any malicious intent,the cc would be left, in the interest of flight safety and self preservation to rightly wonder if the boaster should be reported.

[Right20deg]

So, cabin crew looking after their passengers should allow a coked up pilot to fly them, because to raise an issue would get them the sack. No organisation should be run on fear.

I wonder who the cabin crew reported the texts to. I'd wager that the aircraft commander was made aware of the texts from their crew and made the decision to stand the flight down, abd report why to LHR OPs.

Your suggestion and not mine.
Reporting , as this crew, did was absolutely correct. There is a big airlines culture out there and the old " what goes on west of 30 west stays west of 30W" no longer holds good.
Busting the alcohol rules will always bring trouble and quite rightly so.
Rgds r20deg

[macdo]

Your suggestion and not mine.
Reporting , as this crew, did was absolutely correct. There is a big airlines culture out there and the old " what goes on west of 30 west stays west of 30W" no longer holds good.
Busting the alcohol rules will always bring trouble and quite rightly so.
Rgds r20deg
I don't disagree with your statement, but. The problem is, if you remove the solidarity of trust between crew members, what replaces it? Trust in management processes to do the right thing? The camaraderie of a crew, particularly on long haul trips, to look after each others interests, is pretty important, not least because in an emergency situation you have to trust all of them.
Unfortunately, reporting a colleague for any misdemeanour has become the norm across most workplaces in the West, IMHO it is as destructive as the inability to challange any misdemeanour seen in other parts of the world.

[PC767]

Your suggestion and not mine.
Reporting , as this crew, did was absolutely correct. There is a big airlines culture out there and the old " what goes on west of 30 west stays west of 30W" no longer holds good.
Busting the alcohol rules will always bring trouble and quite rightly so.
Rgds r20deg

Forgive me if I misread your post, but I interpreted your statement as this was a cabin crew rather than a coked up flight crew problem. In that the cabin crew are just out to get the flight crew. I got the impression that you overlooked the actual problem and concentrated on the politics.

You seemed to prefer an Emirates style of a crew being fearful of causing waves for anyone more senior. Indeed you propose it is better to not get caught rather than to not get coked.

Your reply to me contradicts my intetpretation of your post, so I do apologise if I got it wrong and we are on the same page.

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

There have been several posts made in this thread, discussing why the now disgraced pilot would discuss his exploits with a member of the cabin crew. I can't have been the only one, surely, to have noted the single sentence comment (highlighted in the attached screen-capture, taken from The Sun article linked in the opening post of this thread)? This comment, made by the female cabin crew member in the opening remarks of their fateful digital conversation, strongly suggests that she and the pilot were already engaged in some sort of relationship outside of his marriage.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1050x740/smartselect_20231001_115631_gallery_1a0b997ced320c5b5cb5f03c 1267568dd9eb61e0.jpg

The pilot seems to have thought that discussing other illicit down-route goings-on with her would be just fine, as the pair of them were likely already indulging in, or had previously had, an extra-marital relationship. In any event, he was stupid enough to risk his marriage and career.

Additionally, he clearly doesn't have the critical reasoning ability to see the danger in writing to her about his illegal behavior. It seems to be a trait common to many who have grown up closely with, and live their lives on, the internet - they don't seem to have a clue about where rational boundaries lie.

He has now permanently removed himself from employability as a professional pilot. With his photos all over the internet, employment of any meaningful sort is going to be very difficult!

[speed13ird]

So, he's boasting about his night-stop adventures to his girlfriend......I wonder why she reported him? I'm only surprised he didn't copy his wife in too!

[RichardJones]

"One moments thoughtlesness can cause a life times regret" comes to mind.
This lad has paid a very high price as already mentioned. He made a mistake. We have sll made mistakes and done silly things and will continue to do so.
Let this be a lesson to us. All.
At least his mistske hasn't killed anyone. I hope he receives treatment for his possible addiction and proffessional help. He could be at risk of suicide
I hope BA get him the help he will need. Or will he be just thrown to the wolves?

[Tartiflette Fan]

Having read the posts I am surprised that there has beeen no ( ? ) reference to the fact that with some ( lots ? ) of men, if they have had a drink and are horny, then the little brain between their legs completely over-rules the big brain in their head: consequence be damned .

[PC767]

There have been several posts made in this thread, discussing why the now disgraced pilot would discuss his exploits with a member of the cabin crew. I can't have been the only one, surely, to have noted the single sentence comment (highlighted in the attached screen-capture, taken from The Sun article linked in the opening post of this thread)? This comment, made by the female cabin crew member in the opening remarks of their fateful digital conversation, strongly suggests that she and the pilot were already engaged in some sort of relationship outside of his marriage.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1050x740/smartselect_20231001_115631_gallery_1a0b997ced320c5b5cb5f03c 1267568dd9eb61e0.jpg

The pilot seems to have thought that discussing other illicit down-route goings-on with her would be just fine, as the pair of them were likely already indulging in, or had previously had, an extra-marital relationship. In any event, he was stupid enough to risk his marriage and career.

Additionally, he clearly doesn't have the critical reasoning ability to see the danger in writing to her about his illegal behavior. It seems to be a trait common to many who have grown up closely with, and live their lives on, the internet - they don't seem to have a clue about where rational boundaries lie.

He has now permanently removed himself from employability as a professional pilot. With his photos all over the internet, employment of any meaningful sort is going to be very difficult!

I haven't seen the texts reproduced in the Sun. Are they screen shots or a mock up? My interpretation of 'naughtier than us' is that the statement referred to 'us' as the cabin crew, rather than 'us' as a couple. 'Right get ready....' suggests than he knew he was going to blow the cabin crew 'us' antics out of the water. Perhaps he was trying to impress this particular cabin crew member and the opposite occured.

[wiggy]

I think what is more interesting to observe is that he felt comfortable detailing his behaviour in a written/recorded format to a fellow crew member within the same time frame as the trip/return leg. To me; that says a lot more about the company culture surrounding such behaviour.

If this was an outlier in terms of actions/bahviour then wouldn't they know well enough to keep it to themselves and not broadcast it in a format that can be recorded? The contents of the texts appear to me as if it is the:8 bragging report of some regular antics down-route.

*I'm leaving in the spelling error because it made me laugh

I really can't speak for the current climate at BA since I'm not there anymore but what's been described in the MSM most certainly wasn't regular down-route antics.

As for the pilot detailing what supposedly went on into writing that night to anybody, let alone a fellow crew member.....I really really can't begin to think what on earth motivated that.

[Jack D]

I was referring to both the exams and the practical requirements. The "statistics" come from the Office of National Statistics (https://www.ons.gov.uk/datasets/TS067/editions/2021/versions/3). It is interesting to see the dramatic change in national average academic performance between the 2011 and 2021 census.

Nurse and paramedic are both 3/4 year degree level qualifications with embedded work experience. ATPL is roughly 18 months, so substantially less

You may be right , but surely it depends on what sort of degree we are talking about , and it what subjects . No way on earth the educational level of a paramedic is equal to a rigorous 3 or 4 year degree, same goes for nursing … I’ve seen them on the Telly .. no offense

[back to Boeing]

You may be right , but surely it depends on what sort of degree we are talking about , and it what subjects . No way on earth the educational level of a paramedic is equal to a rigorous 3 or 4 year degree, same goes for nursing … I’ve seen them on the Telly .. no offense
You do realise that in the U.K. in 2023 you require a degree at university level to become a nurse (the are some degree level apprenticeships. But not many)

Ive done both a degree at a serious U.K. university and an ATPL. ATPL’s are learning by rote. Zero critical thinking required. (At least it was 20 years ago. I doubt much has changed)

[RichardJones]

You do realise that in the U.K. in 2023 you require a degree at university level to become a nurse (the are some degree level apprenticeships. But not many)

Why do they blindly insist on a degree for everything now?You need a degree to be a copper. Now a nurse. What's next? Bin man?. Or should I say refuge operative? No disrespect.
I left school at 15 with nothing. Yet I got through the system and finished up on 4 engined heavy jets. Now, with my lack of academic qualifications I wouldn't get into a ATO for a 2 year sausage factory course.
Why don't they make it a post graduate doctorate and be done with it.
You can't learn flare, aptitude or ability in a class room. You are either born with it or not.

[speed13ird]

That must be why nurses earn as much as pilots

[Jack D]

Why do they blindly insist on a degree for everything now?You need a degree to be a copper. Now a nurse. What's next? Bin man?. Or should I say refuge operative? No disrespect.
I left school at 15 with nothing. Yet I got through the system and finished up on 4 engined heavy jets. Now, with my lack of academic qualifications I wouldn't get into a ATO for a 2 year sausage factory course.
Ahy don't they make it a post graduate doroctate and be done with it.
You can learn flare, aptitude or ability in a class room. You are either born with it or not.

I agree with you completely , in fact many degrees are so dumbed down and issued by “non” new universities that they become practically worthless… they are the new “o” level just about everybody has one . Mind you as our colleague has stated statistics will show more degrees than ever are being awarded .. more,s the pity .

[Oasis]

Why in the hell would a BA fo ever apply to Whizz?

This was before his story came out..

Just weird

[MerseyView]

"One moments thoughtlesness can cause a life times regret" comes to mind.
This lad has paid a very high price as already mentioned. He made a mistake. We have sll made mistakes and done silly things and will continue to do so.
Let this be a lesson to us. All.
At least his mistske hasn't killed anyone. I hope he receives treatment for his possible addiction and proffessional help. He could be at risk of suicide
I hope BA get him the help he will need. Or will he be just thrown to the wolves?

Hopefully the latter, he is a disgrace to his profession!

[alexeyAP]

Wow, works in a career that many dream of being in for one of the most prestigious companies in the world and he doesn't have the patience to say "I'm alright thanks" and snort coke off some bird's tits in London 24hr later instead! Shame on him.

[radlettrejoin]

More from The Sun about the Wizz interview:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/24218736/coke-shame-british-airways-pilot-mike-beaton-wizz-air/

An undated online CV (unedited with typos) - Mike Beaton;

I'm Currently living in East London. My time is divided between flying, BALPA duties, AviationShake development and about a gazillion hobbies.

I've been a comercial pilot for nearly 4 years, and in a previous life I was a lead developer for a small data analytics firm in Peterborough. My experience of web technologies, and my unbridled passion for aviation led to my teaming up with Jagoda Markowiak and starting AviationShake early in 2013. Things are moving quickly and these are exciting times.

I've been a member of the British AirLine Pilots' Association (BALPA) since the very first day I joined an Airline and, late 2012, I was asked to join the negoiating body within BA CityFLyer. Our remit is industrial relations, including pay, working conditions, flight and duty time limitations plus a plethora of ancillary issues and projects. The work is both challenging and complex. Just the way I like it.

For fun I have mountain bikes, cameras, computers, cricket kit, model aircraft, a squash racket, running shoes, a tent, hiking boots, lots and lots of books - and possibly most significantly, a local Pub.


AviationShake do this:

https://www.aviationcourses.com/course/pilot-interview-preparation-skype-446

[barry lloyd]

A comercial pilot eh? Says it all really...

[DIBO]

I'm Currently living in East London. My time is divided between flying, BALPA duties, AviationShake development and about a gazillion hobbies.

I've been a comercial pilot for nearly 4 years, and in a previous life I was a lead developer for a small data analytics firm in Peterborough. My experience of web technologies, and my unbridled passion for aviation led to my teaming up with Jagoda Markowiak and starting AviationShake early in 2013. Things are moving quickly and these are exciting times.

I've been a member of the British AirLine Pilots' Association (BALPA) since the very first day I joined an Airline and, late 2012, I was asked to join the negoiating body within BA CityFLyer. Our remit is industrial relations, including pay, working conditions, flight and duty time limitations plus a plethora of ancillary issues and projects. The work is both challenging and complex. Just the way I like it.

For fun I have mountain bikes, cameras, computers, cricket kit, model aircraft, a squash racket, running shoes, a tent, hiking boots, lots and lots of books - and possibly most significantly, a local Pub.

Sounds to me as someone living in overdrive, either being blessed with a health/metabolism running happily in overdrive, or else needing a line of 'booster' every now and again.
From my own experience, I find it shocking that an occasional 'line' becomes more and more socially accepted in younger generations (outside of aviation).

[megan]

the little brain between their legs completely over-rules the big brain in their headThat's because men only have enough blood to run one at a time.

[krismiler]

I’m sure we’d all rather not have the reporting culture of a certain ME big 3 airline where the cabin crew are encouraged to spy on and actively report on flight crew for any minor transgression.

By all means report incidents like this but I don’t want someone looking over my shoulder the whole time I’m at work. Enough backstabbing goes on already.

[Right Engine]

I don't know about the BA assessment process, but an ATPL is a fairly middling achievement - below the standard required of, for example, a nurse, paramedic or physiotherapist and about level with an osteopath.
​​
If you look at the census statistics that puts an ATPL holder somewhere in the bottom 50%-65% of the over-16 English population, i.e. just above average.

I think it’s bloody amazing you’re a qualified Nurse, Paramedic, Physiotherapist, Osteopath AND ATPL license holder in order to make these comparisons. Well done. 😜

[Gordomac]

I see my earlier question was answered. Thought so. Boasting to all and sundry, including current and ex's. Obviously needed a pat on the back.

Of wider interest, to me, says a lot about widening the net and opening doors. BOAC and BEA were choice. They merged. It was called BA. There was BA Overseas division and dear old BA European Division. Separately formed was BA Regional division. That opened a backdoor for people who were really Cambrian and Northeast.

Point of all this ? This chap is described as a BA pilot.

Reading his CV, looks like a so-called "self improver" who got into BA City Flyer. You can paint BA on the side of anything but you might not be of the old, direct school.

Probably hurt a lot of BOAC bods to change their wings to BA. This Guy, being reported as a BA pilot probably hurts a lot of the old-school, real BA pilots.

Oh, I was Northeast. Loved changing my uniform to BA but at BEA Uniform Store where I first got my BKS wings. Loved being called a BA pilot but felt a bit of a fraud as I failed part one of Hamble selection for BOAC/BEA.( Still don't talk proper and eat peas wiv me knife)

All in all, gives a bad impression of the corporate identity.

[blind pew]

Thought you lot only ate mushy peas…I know how best to eat cockles with a wooden fork..

[a797]

This guy clearly made a series of catastrophic, idiotic, dumb, indefensible decisions and has paid for it dearly.

Undoubtedly going through utter humiliation, front page of tabloids around the world and his face shown in disgrace on news channels broadcasts. Everyone who knows him personally and professionally discussing his stupidity.

Call me a bleeding heart liberal but if there's any place where he might receive a tiny but of compassion, it would be here, amongst his peers. Yes what he did was completely indefensible but due to the extreme nature of it I wonder if mental health issues played a part.

His life is destroyed already, I'm not personally rushing to stick a knife into him further and I hope he sorts his life out and doesn't end up back on the front page of the newspapers in tragic circumstances.

[Uplinker]

"One moments thoughtlesness can cause a life times regret" comes to mind.
This lad has paid a very high price as already mentioned. He made a mistake. We have sll made mistakes and done silly things and will continue to do so.
Let this be a lesson to us. All.
At least his mistske hasn't killed anyone........

A pilot taking coke and alcohol whilst on duty laying-over, is not a "mistake", it is a deliberate action. "I meant to have a cup of tea but I accidentally snorted some coke instead".......!!!!!

A mistake is reading back the wrong frequency or accidentally trying your hotel keycard in the wrong door, i.e. an inadvertent and undesired error. Deciding to have a romp with illegal drugs is very far from being a mistake, it is a deliberate action.

Quite how any pilot would think this was suitable and sensible behaviour before a duty baffles me. His "mistake" could certainly have killed many people had he operated back whilst fatigued and drugged up.

Taking illegal drugs would be bad enough off-duty and at home, but while on duty and down route......?

How did the assessment process - with all its modern psychometric tests and ever more hurdles to jump over - fail and miss this trait in this person ?

[Right20deg]

I see my earlier question was answered. Thought so. Boasting to all and sundry, including current and ex's. Obviously needed a pat on the back.

Of wider interest, to me, says a lot about widening the net and opening doors. BOAC and BEA were choice. They merged. It was called BA. There was BA Overseas division and dear old BA European Division. Separately formed was BA Regional division. That opened a backdoor for people who were really Cambrian and Northeast.

Point of all this ? This chap is described as a BA pilot.

Reading his CV, looks like a so-called "self improver" who got into BA City Flyer. You can paint BA on the side of anything but you might not be of the old, direct school.

Probably hurt a lot of BOAC bods to change their wings to BA. This Guy, being reported as a BA pilot probably hurts a lot of the old-school, real BA pilots.

Oh, I was Northeast. Loved changing my uniform to BA but at BEA Uniform Store where I first got my BKS wings. Loved being called a BA pilot but felt a bit of a fraud as I failed part one of Hamble selection for BOAC/BEA.( Still don't talk proper and eat peas wiv me knife)

All in all, gives a bad impression of the corporate identity.
I know exactly what you mean. Things really changed. We have our Hamble 50th next year, but they have wrecked the village identity, but left the pubs alone !

[Commander Taco]

Sounds to me as someone living in overdrive, either being blessed with a health/metabolism running happily in overdrive, or else needing a line of 'booster' every now and again.
From my own experience, I find it shocking that an occasional 'line' becomes more and more socially accepted in younger generations (outside of aviation).

Unfortunately Dibo, that is the language of the millenial marketing types. They are either “super-pumped” or “totally stoked” about something, or “traumatized” when that something doesn’t work out.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

I think it’s bloody amazing you’re a qualified Nurse, Paramedic, Physiotherapist, Osteopath AND ATPL license holder in order to make these comparisons. Well done. 😜

I suppose you have yo have a certain level of academic qualifications from school to be accepted to Nursing School etc, as some have said on here they have left school at 14 and still made it to the LHS of a heavy. I know it's a cliche but its always said that having a bank of mum and dad and proof of funds is more important to flight schools than academic ability but who knows.

In the RAF pilot/officer training is reduced if you have a college degree. The same in the USA, the 1,500 requirement is reduced if you have a college degree. I think it is an American thing, having a college degree to get a good job, which has found its way across the atlantic. Many professional and government jobs require a college degree, it doesn't matter what subject, any degree would suffice. When the FBI and CIA were being set up it was a stipulation that all candidates must possess a 4 year college degree which still holds true today. I would imagine that being a CIA or FBI officer would be a highly desirable job and having a university degree would be a first round filter to reduce applications to a manageable level.

Having a university degree doesn't set you apart but it does provide a filter for oversubscribed professions, I can imagine being a CIA or FBI officer would be a desirable job

[Nightstop]

I know exactly what you mean. Things really changed. We have our Hamble 50th next year, but they have wrecked the village identity, but left the pubs alone !

Not sure about that. The White Hart pub in Hamble had been ruined inside with bright cool white fluorescent lighting, when I visited years ago. Was it the 25th?

[beamer]

This guy clearly made a series of catastrophic, idiotic, dumb, indefensible decisions and has paid for it dearly.

Undoubtedly going through utter humiliation, front page of tabloids around the world and his face shown in disgrace on news channels broadcasts. Everyone who knows him personally and professionally discussing his stupidity.

Call me a bleeding heart liberal but if there's any place where he might receive a tiny but of compassion, it would be here, amongst his peers. Yes what he did was completely indefensible but due to the extreme nature of it I wonder if mental health issues played a part.

His life is destroyed already, I'm not personally rushing to stick a knife into him further and I hope he sorts his life out and doesn't end up back on the front page of the newspapers in tragic circumstances.

I’m not too sure how people on this Board could actually be classified as ‘peers’ these days.

[thetimesreader84]

Sympathy? No. It isn't just mis timing a last drink, snorting Class A (off whatever surface) and bragging about it in writing is about as bad as it comes. But he paid the price when he got the sack & had his medical pulled.

Having his name dragged through the papers is, in my opinion, far too much. Every time he goes for a job & tries to get his life back together, even outside Aviation, his misdeeds are just a Google search away. He has my sympathy in that, sole, regard.

[RichardJones]

How did the assessment process - with all its modern psychometric tests and ever more hurdles to jump over - fail and miss this trait in this person ?

Because the tests are flawed, period. Too much theory these days. I've known, what I would refer to as a psychopath and some nasty pieces of work, slip through the net. Independent coaching is available to assist in getting through.
Keep it simple. One of the best ways to spot possible undesirable traits etc, is to get them into a "social environment. Take:m all down to the pub! 😊

[Jhieminga]

... I find it shocking that an occasional 'line' becomes more and more socially accepted in younger generations (outside of aviation).
I don't have any personal experience here, but I do understand from recent news articles that class A drugs are becoming as 'normal' and 'accepted' in younger generations as alcohol was when I was a bit younger. Apparently it is a normal thing to do to order a few lines/pills/whatever you fancy to support a party, have a good weekend and basically shut your brain down for a couple of hours before taking on the next week of advancing your career. Another 'modern' thing is of course bragging/publishing/sharing everything you do on the internet. The method and platform regularly changes but the norm here is that it didn't happen unless you shout about it from the rooftops to everyone on your contact list and your boss's mum. I'm just wondering how much of those modern mindsets is conflicting with the old style mindsets that others in the industry still have (not judging either way), and the safety mindset that you should have if you're put in a responsible position at the pointy end.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

Because the tests are flawed, period. Too much theory these days. I've known, what I would refer to as a psychopath and some nasty pieces of work, slip through the net. Independent coaching is available to assist in getting through.
Keep it simple. One of the best ways to spot possible undesirable traits etc, is to get them into a "social environment. Take:m all down to the pub! 😊

I have no idea if it is still done, but this used to be an informal part of the AIB between days 1 and 2.

[Right20deg]

I don't have any personal experience here, but I do understand from recent news articles that class A drugs are becoming as 'normal' and 'accepted' in younger generations as alcohol was when I was a bit younger. Apparently it is a normal thing to do to order a few lines/pills/whatever you fancy to support a party, have a good weekend and basically shut your brain down for a couple of hours before taking on the next week of advancing your career. Another 'modern' thing is of course bragging/publishing/sharing everything you do on the internet. The method and platform regularly changes but the norm here is that it didn't happen unless you shout about it from the rooftops to everyone on your contact list and your boss's mum. I'm just wondering how much of those modern mindsets is conflicting with the old style mindsets that others in the industry still have (not judging either way), and the safety mindset that you should have if you're put in a responsible position at the pointy end.
There was a World in Action documentary made decades ago, showing the professional classes taking high quality drugs over the weekends. Winding down after a big week in our cities , people in the judiciary, bankers solicitors accountants and dealers.....you name it, they were doing it. The documentary showed how clever people were able to do just enough drugs to relax and then be back in harness in the business on monday with nobody the wiser. The documentary, I believe, was withheld as it was deemed to risky to show to the public by setting a bad example of the correct way to do things.

[jumpseater]

Having his name dragged through the papers is, in my opinion, far too much. Every time he goes for a job & tries to get his life back together, even outside Aviation, his misdeeds are just a Google search away. He has my sympathy in that, sole, regard.

If the quoted CV is correct then with his technology background, he of all people will have known the potential of digital data to provide evidence in many forms. Once you press ‘send’ you have lost control of that data/information/images, there is no guarantee the recipient will keep that information secure. There are previous prosecutions for emergency services employees sharing images of incidents they were attending, or receiving them and sharing them further. So if you’re dozy enough to send personal compromising messages that can be captured, I can’t see why that might deserve sympathy, particularly bearing in mind his professional experience regarding web activity.

He has the legal option of course of a deed poll name change. I suspect that may be a good option for him, and maybe his immediate family too. I do have particular sympathy for them, as they will be subject to the Google search, school gate, and village gossip which they almost certainly don’t deserve.

[Chiefttp]

He wrote a description of himself and listed his accomplishments , hobbies and interests, Yet, he finishes it wi this statement

“For fun I have mountain bikes, cameras, computers, cricket kit, model aircraft, a squash racket, running shoes, a tent, hiking boots, lots and lots of books - and possibly most significantly a local pub”.

I’m not an expert on English culture, but prioritizing the primacy of a “ LOCAL PUB” on an pilot resume seems like an odd item to list, and in hindsight should have been a red flag to this guys character.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Any of you who have been involved with folks who have committed offences and ended up in jail will know the catastrophic effect a few moment's madness can have on a person's life and that of their family. I have had the privilege/misfortune (depending on your perspective) to be involved with people with criminal backgrounds and to go to jail to see them. I can promise you it is a salutary experience - a moment of misjudgement can have lifelong and overwhelmingly tragic results. It has sure made me think long and hard about roadside altercations over traffic disagreements etc - in a moment of foolishness people hit each other and suddenly there is a whole new disastrous world unfolding before them. Court cases, job losses, income loss, divorce etc - the litany of unintended consequences is truly terrifying. Our boy here is about to find out first hand how an incredibly bad decision is going to effect his future life. Like all the folks in jail I alluded to, once the ball is rolling, no one is protected from having their name in the paper, reputational loss or the disdain of their peers - a whole new world of pain is about to appear and you have to just suck it up. Some people do that better than others.

Regarding Class A being the new alcohol - that is simply not the case. Every dire warning is out there for us all to know about what will happen if you indulge. Every absolutely dreadful outcome from this whole sorry tale was completely predictable and there is no professional pilot who can say they were not warned beforehand. On a personal level, I genuinely feel very sorry for this guy and the foolishness he has shown. He simply had no idea of how badly his life would unravel in very short order or he presumably would not have done it. Nonetheless, I also have to balance that against the requirement for his airline (in this case British Airways) to act quickly and decisively to preserve their reputation. As he will have discovered, when the trapdoor opens, it is very quick and absolutely final. A tragedy indeed.

As an aside, for those that equate Class A use to alcohol misuse, just have a look at this -

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/outlines/drug-offences/#:~:text=How%20is%20the%20sentence%20worked,culpability%20an d%20the%20harm%20caused.

Possession for personal use gets you up to 7 years. I would compare that to having a bottle of wine in your possession, which often gets you a pat on the back.

[Abrahn]

If your sample is drawn from the prison population then it's probably biased towards those who got a prison sentence. Which is an extreme end.

Class A possession is a gravity score 3 offence. Which would normally result in a charge but in exceptional circumstances for a first offender would be a caution. This, by the way, is one circumstance where you shouldn't go "no comment" in interview, you're only eligible for a caution if you confess.

Whilst drugs may not be the new alcohol use is high amongst both the young and middle aged, although not necessarily class A. If you work in what you consider a professional office, try asking your neighborhood policing team to come and do a drug swipe of the toilets - it may be illuminating.

In this particular case, I hope there has been no charge - if there has then we shouldn't be discussing it. Most people are entitled to privacy until charged. Somebody has leaked this story, and that person should be in trouble too.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Abrahn - as I am sure you are aware, the breath alcohol concentration (BrAC) for a commercial pilot cannot exceed a level equivalent to 0.2 grams of blood alcohol concentration (BAC) per litre of blood. That is a quarter of the England/Wales drinking and driving limit. In those circumstances, if the said pilot was turning up to work under the influence (even to that very small level), the starting point here in the UK is 6 months in jail. If a pilot turns up to work under the influence of a Class A drug, do you really think this will be treated as a gravity score 3 offence? BA made the decision to get their previous employee out the country very quickly and get him back home, whereupon he appeared to fail a drugs test. From where I sit, he is extremely lucky not to be in jail and to only lose his job. The idea that 'everyone is doing this these days', which is kind of the line being taken by some here is just wrong at every level. Everyone is not doing it and those few that do cannot seriously say they had no idea of how it was going to pan out.

[Abrahn]

If a pilot turns up to work under the influence

I was mostly responding to rebut the rebuttal of the posts by Jhieminga and Right20deg, which were around the general prevalence of drugs in all echelons of society and the response of the criminal justice system. And to make the points that criminal offences should be tried by the criminal courts and not The Sun and that employers have a duty to respect the privacy of their employees.

[UV]

Has there been any information about his Licence?

I note that he has had his medical withdrawn but has the Authority taken any action to revoke his ATPL?

I would have thought this is the next step.

[Jhieminga]

The idea that 'everyone is doing this these days', which is kind of the line being taken by some here is just wrong at every level. Everyone is not doing it and those few that do cannot seriously say they had no idea of how it was going to pan out.
I'm not sure that that's what I was trying to say, but perhaps I'm misreading your post. I am vehemently against the use of narcotics in any way except when prescribed by a medical professional. I do think that our society is changing in its view on these things. When I grew up, drugs were used by junkies in derelict buildings. Now they're being used by adults who have a decent job at parties or at home with friends. It's certainly not everyone who's doing this, but the numbers are going up. More importantly, the perception of it is changing. I think there is a group of younger ones (that's: all younger than me) who accepts narcotics as part of the 'party scene' in the same way I saw beer and other alcoholic drinks when I was 18. The problem is that these young ones are in responsible jobs and have a duty of care. That's the bit that's baffling me.

As for the BA pilot, I reckon that narcotics misuse is a valid ground for pulling a medical. I don't think that pulling his licence is warranted yet. Even though he turned up with the intention of operating the flight, he did not end up on the flight deck (thanks to the crewmember) and as such, did not get into a situation where he put others at risk. This guy may have a serious problem (more than one) but he too deserves to defend himself, work on his problems and perhaps at some point in the future get his medical back if he has learned enough.

[Winemaker]

He wrote a description of himself and listed his accomplishments , hobbies and interests, Yet, he finishes it wi this statement

“For fun I have mountain bikes, cameras, computers, cricket kit, model aircraft, a squash racket, running shoes, a tent, hiking boots, lots and lots of books - and possibly most significantly a local pub”.

I’m not an expert on English culture, but prioritizing the primacy of a “ LOCAL PUB” on an pilot resume seems like an odd item to list, and in hindsight should have been a red flag to this guys character.
His description of himself reads like it was written by a twelve year old; if I were a hiring manager I'd probably toss his application just from that.

[pax britanica]

wine maker

I think you are being rather unreasonable with your comemnt---what actually wrong with his hobbies, not pc enough. Of course back in the day no one had hiring mangers because the process was largely handled by experienced professionals in the discipline and HR or Personnel as they would have been were there to talk about pay and rations and a bit of company culture and perhaps to avoid any nepotism.

Lookign at it his comments it shows he is keen on fitness ( some decades back he might have not got hired if he didnt list cricket or another team sport) , the outdoors, technology ,and wide range of reading . So what is wrong with that But i do agree the pub comment is odd and maybe thats this guys problem , hes 95% a straight arrow BUT.......

[Winemaker]

wine maker

I think you are being rather unreasonable with your comemnt---what actually wrong with his hobbies, not pc enough. Of course back in the day no one had hiring mangers because the process was largely handled by experienced professionals in the discipline and HR or Personnel as they would have been were there to talk about pay and rations and a bit of company culture and perhaps to avoid any nepotism.

Lookign at it his comments it shows he is keen on fitness ( some decades back he might have not got hired if he didnt list cricket or another team sport) , the outdoors, technology ,and wide range of reading . So what is wrong with that But i do agree the pub comment is odd and maybe thats this guys problem , hes 95% a straight arrow BUT.......
You misunderstand. It's not the content, it's the juvenile presentation.

[John Marsh]

I'm not sure that that's what I was trying to say, but perhaps I'm misreading your post. I am vehemently against the use of narcotics in any way except when prescribed by a medical professional. I do think that our society is changing in its view on these things. When I grew up, drugs were used by junkies in derelict buildings. Now they're being used by adults who have a decent job at parties or at home with friends. It's certainly not everyone who's doing this, but the numbers are going up. More importantly, the perception of it is changing. I think there is a group of younger ones (that's: all younger than me) who accepts narcotics as part of the 'party scene' in the same way I saw beer and other alcoholic drinks when I was 18. The problem is that these young ones are in responsible jobs and have a duty of care. That's the bit that's baffling me.

As for the BA pilot, I reckon that narcotics misuse is a valid ground for pulling a medical. I don't think that pulling his licence is warranted yet. Even though he turned up with the intention of operating the flight, he did not end up on the flight deck (thanks to the crewmember) and as such, did not get into a situation where he put others at risk. This guy may have a serious problem (more than one) but he too deserves to defend himself, work on his problems and perhaps at some point in the future get his medical back if he has learned enough.
You seem to be suggesting a degree of leniency. I would be inclined to grant such if he had removed himself from the JNB-LHR leg.

[Jhieminga]

I don't know if I was suggesting leniency, but I see your point. If he had removed himself, if he had recognised his condition and had stepped up, we would have looked at him differently. Still, the intention to do something is not the same as actually doing it. I was not able to find a similar article or list based on UK regulations, but this article has a decent overview of what would get a FAA licence revoked: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/may/flight-training-magazine/career-pilot-revoked It includes 'virtually any flight operation involving the use of drugs or alcohol contrary to the limits specified by the regulations' but note that this states 'flight operation' instead of 'turning up for a flight'. We can argue that turning up at the crew room is already part of... but to be honest, I don't know exactly where and when he was approached and pointed towards an economy class seat in the back. Also, I don't know if that's relevant right now. He did not actually operate the flight while under the influence of, and because of that, I doubt whether the CAA has enough of a case to pull his licence.

At this point in time, pulling his medical has the same effect: it keeps him out of cockpits. Also, we don't know exactly what the circumstances are but we are playing judge and jury when we're saying 'pull his licence'. The article I linked to above, as well as a post earlier on (this one (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/655010-ba-pilot-sacked-snorting-coke-err-well-then-trying-fly-home.html#post11511108)), talk about a second chance. I think we all agree that this guy has a problem, evidenced both by his partying attitude and perhaps also in some of his other actions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's barred from flying for life. He still think he is allowed to get his day in court, his chance to learn from this, heal and re-evaluate what he wants to do. Time will tell if that involves flying.

[pax britanica]

W-m

Fair enough altho its presentation didnt look that odd to me in terms of what i haveseen from technology/engineering grads in my field . Perhaps t what you are alluding too is the slighty trivial and very basic presentation. Didnt show much maturity which is important for any flight deck group.

[glekichi]

Not to condone the actions at all, but was he actually under the influence of the drug? Story reads like he had plenty of time to sleep it off. The test on arrival back home would have shown recent use but not impairment AFAIK.
Lack of judgement, absolutely, on many counts.
Ilegal, yes.
Operating (or attempting to operate) under the influence though? I'm not really convinced on that one.

[Jhieminga]

Not to condone the actions at all, but was he actually under the influence of the drug? Story reads like he had plenty of time to sleep it off. The test on arrival back home would have shown recent use but not impairment.
There is no clear consensus on the boundaries between impairment and just having traces in your system. An overview of European traffic laws (see here: https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/topic-overviews/legal-approaches-to-drugs-and-driving/html_en) shows that some countries specify a limit over which impairment would be present, others simply state that the presence of the drug implies impairment. This note from the link above describes the issue:
In general, countries may either operate policies of “zero tolerance”, in which any trace of drug found is penalised no matter what the effect on the driver; or “impairment”, when drivers will be punished only if their driving skills were obviously affected. This is due to lack of scientific agreement up to now about what levels of concentration of the drug in the body may show impairment, and lack of suitable equipment for roadside testing. As science starts to converge on approximate levels of impairment, laws have started to specify blood-drug levels above which a driver will be considered guilty, but these may still fit the existing typology; a low threshold may be considered “zero tolerance” while a higher threshold may be considered 'impairment'.
I would need to look up the specifics but I suspect that within aviation the approach is still 'zero tolerance' on the drugs front. There is also an argument that just taking the risk of having drugs in your system when turning up for a flight shows a level of irresponsibility that is not acceptable. The effects of drugs, with its various options and use cases and on different persons is not understood well enough to be more specific, which leaves a grey area. Because of that, I would say that a zero tolerance approach is the way to go here.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

'Obviously affected' is almost impossible to define in a legal sense. Hence we have an acceptable blood alcohol level of 0.2 here in the UK. No is allowed the luxury of a debate on whether they were impaired or not - exceed that limit on report and you will get dual punishment of instant job loss followed shortly thereafter by a jail sentence. The approach to drugs is even stricter with a zero tolerance policy for any amount whatsoever. There is no discussion about levels of impairment as that is a defence lawyer's opportunity to argue black is white and run rings round an uneducated jury. Hence the rules in all airlines are even simpler than for alcohol - any participation of any kind gets you fired. What I am less certain of is at what point it turns into a court case and inevitable jail.

[tdracer]

Not to condone the actions at all, but was he actually under the influence of the drug? Story reads like he had plenty of time to sleep it off. The test on arrival back home would have shown recent use but not impairment AFAIK.
Lack of judgement, absolutely, on many counts.
Ilegal, yes.
Operating (or attempting to operate) under the influence though? I'm not really convinced on that one.

Coke isn't like alcohol - you don't simply 'sleep it off'. In fact, it's a terrifically powerful stimulant to the point where 'sleep' is next to impossible. The 'high' is fairly short lived, but the stimulant effects mean that sleep in the next 12+ hours is very, very unlikely. I've heard of people going on coke benders that didn't sleep for multiple days.
So, best case, the pilot in question would have been heading out on a long-haul flight horribly fatigued.

[Jamie2009]

Coke isn't like alcohol - you don't simply 'sleep it off'. In fact, it's a terrifically powerful stimulant to the point where 'sleep' is next to impossible. The 'high' is fairly short lived, but the stimulant effects mean that sleep in the next 12+ hours is very, very unlikely. I've heard of people going on coke benders that didn't sleep for multiple days.
So, best case, the pilot in question would have been heading out on a long-haul flight horribly fatigued.

Thanks for the expert opinion but has anyone seen mention anywhere of evidence that he was actually impaired when he rocked up to work?
ie. was he flicking every switch, dancing around the flight deck talking bollocks at a thousand words per minute so the Capt booted him off.

He’s been a very naughty silly boy and if he takes it on the chin and jumps over the hurdles that are quite rightly put in front of him, I can see him getting back into the flight deck in a few years once the dust has settled. No need to throw him to the wolves just yet - see how he bounces back. There’s a few pilots out there with a history still flying around that this group would have burned at the stake.

It was only a few years ago the flight deck were smoking away and having landing drinks before getting stuck into Deirdre and her mates down route for a few days. Not sure airline pilots can be described as Saints and claim the moral high ground as this thread would have us believe. How many have second or third wives a lot younger than them that were CC with a bit of a cross over period.
I would also suggest the reason BA haven’t instigated drug testing of every pilot in the company ASAP is they don’t want to see the results. A minority will fail as they would in any airline and that’s only more bad headlines.

To err is human and to forgive devine. (If he earns the forgiveness)

[OvertHawk]

Not to condone the actions at all, but was he actually under the influence of the drug? Story reads like he had plenty of time to sleep it off. The test on arrival back home would have shown recent use but not impairment AFAIK.
Lack of judgement, absolutely, on many counts.
Ilegal, yes.
Operating (or attempting to operate) under the influence though? I'm not really convinced on that one.


I'd suggest the fact that he thought it was a good idea to send another member of the crew a text message announcing that he'd been taking Cocaine the night before is indicative of him being still under the influence.

As others have said - you don't just "sleep off" Coke. The effects of the drug itself and the secondary effects of your body whilst it recovers are significant and can run into days.

I really am struggling to understand the people that are trying to suggest this is not a big deal! Setting aside the drugs element (which I don't) he deserves to be sacked for being an idiot for boasting about it.

[OvertHawk]

Thanks for the expert opinion but has anyone seen mention anywhere of evidence that he was actually impaired when he rocked up to work?
ie. was he flicking every switch, dancing around the flight deck talking bollocks at a thousand words per minute so the Capt booted him off.
)

I don't know about you, but I set my standards of minimum acceptable performance considerably higher than not "flicking every switch, dancing around the flight deck talking bollocks at a thousand words per minute"!

[bean]

I don't know about you, but I set my standards of minimum acceptable performance considerably higher than not "flicking every switch, dancing around the flight deck talking bollocks at a thousand words per minute"!
Look at their profile. Says a lot

[Good Vibs]

Just for fun...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XC3Hc-rAkk

[swh]

Thanks for the expert opinion but has anyone seen mention anywhere of evidence that he was actually impaired when he rocked up to work?
ie. was he flicking every switch, dancing around the flight deck talking bollocks at a thousand words per minute so the Capt booted him off.

The flight was cancelled before the crew left the hotel, none of the crew of the flight reported for duty that day.

[tdracer]

Thanks for the expert opinion but has anyone seen mention anywhere of evidence that he was actually impaired when he rocked up to work?

Given the effects of cocaine, it's highly unlikely that he got any meaningful sleep the night before showing up to pilot a long-haul flight. That means we're talking no meaningful sleep for at least 36 hours.
I'd think no sleep for over 36 hours would leave most people fatigue impaired - even if the effects of the coke had worn off (which is unlikely that they had).
That he was then stupid enough to brag about it to a fellow crew member just reinforces that he wasn't exactly firing on all cylinders...

[V-Jet]

The flight was cancelled before the crew left the hotel, none of the crew of the flight reported for duty that day.

I wonder if Welsh and Spanish knew the rest of the crew had the next few days off??

[bean]

I wonder if Welsh and Spanish knew the rest of the crew had the next few days off??
That would not have happened. Probably the flight operated late using a FO from the inbound crew after sufficient legal rest

[Clop_Clop]

It was only a few years ago the flight deck were smoking away and having landing drinks before getting stuck into Deirdre and her mates down route for a few days. Not sure airline pilots can be described as Saints and claim the moral high ground as this thread would have us believe. How many have second or third wives a lot younger than them that were CC with a bit of a cross over period.

To err is human and to forgive devine. (If he earns the forgiveness)

So after spending some time discrediting airline pilots in general , including a piece about 2nd or 3rd wives which is not so convincing as it is funny instead, you have no problem getting on the high ground yourself there by quoting Alexander Pope ... :)

[bean]

So after spending some time discrediting airline pilots in general , including a piece about 2nd or 3rd wives which is not so convincing as it is funny instead, you have no problem getting on the high ground yourself there by quoting Alexander Pope ... :)
Hear Hear