Jet2 low fuel PMI

[bean]

The Daily Record Youtube channel randomly popped up on my computer today. It claims that a Jet2 flight from GLA to PMI on August 27th held for an hour in the air at PMI and landed at PMI with less than final reserve fuel and that the Spanish are investigating.
Interesting

[Mr Good Cat]

The Daily Record Youtube channel randomly popped up on my computer today. It claims that a Jet2 flight from GLA to PMI on August 27th held for an hour in the air at PMI and landed at PMI with less than final reserve fuel and that the Spanish are investigating.
Interesting

Well, the reports say 39kg less than final reserve(not sure how they are so accurate!). So pretty much bang on it. If they committed as the best option and declared ICAO 4444 Minimum Fuel, then it may just be a case of slightly longer vectors than they were anticipating. Doesn't seem like a huge issue on a particularly bad day for weather.

[Chesty Morgan]

The gauges aren't even that accurate :}

[meleagertoo]

How can anyone hold at destination (especially on a "particularly bad say for weather") having burned through diversion and contingency fuel? Why hadn't they diverted half an hour previously?
Had they landed at IBZ or BCN on skosh fuel I'd be tempted to sympathyse (while wondering why they hadn't added plenty extra fuel given the forecast or diverted earlier).
As reported it sounds like a Very Big Deal indeed to me.


27 Aug 2023, 09:00 to 28 Aug 2023, 06:00 (UTC):
TAF AMD LEPA 270926Z 2709/2806 31012KT 9999 SCT010 TX27/2712Z TN19/2806Z PROB40 TEMPO 2709/2714 27020G50KT TEMPO 2709/2720 30015G27KT 2000 SHRA TSGR SCT030CB


27 Aug 2023, 18:00 to 28 Aug 2023, 18:00 (UTC):
TAF AMD LEPA 271834Z 2718/2818 30010KT 9999 SCT010 TX26/2812Z TN19/2806Z TEMPO 2718/2720 30033G55KT TEMPO 2718/2721 30015G27KT 2000 SHRA TSGR SCT020CB TEMPO 2720/2805 VRB04KT

[Chesty Morgan]

Or perhaps they had an EAT for PMI and, as said above, maybe had slightly extended vectors.

Who Knows? We don't.

[meleagertoo]

Regardless of an EAT you may not hang around your destination below minimum diversion fuel. You have to divert. They didn't. That seems a very serious situation to me.

[flyboy146]

Oh dear, another armchair critic who doesn’t know what they are talking about.

[macdo]

Unless things have much improved around the Balearics, the situation can quickly become quite chaotic in poor weather. Without all the info, I'd imagine the crew made a logical decision to hang around.

[kmw63]

Regardless of an EAT you may not hang around your destination below minimum diversion fuel. You have to divert. They didn't. That seems a very serious situation to me.

Never heard of committing? At one of the largest two-runway airfields in the region?

[Jonty]

Regardless of an EAT you may not hang around your destination below minimum diversion fuel. You have to divert. They didn't. That seems a very serious situation to me.

That's not correct. You can use your diversion fuel to stay at your current destination if that's the best option.
The question will be whether they declared Min Fuel and then a MayDay when it looked like they were going to land below final reserve.
I don't want to question their decision making, I wasn't there, but did they follow procedure?

[Brian Pern]

Google is a wonderful tool:

https://www.mitma.es/organos-colegiados/ciaiac/investigacion/2023/a-024-2023

and here:

https://avherald.com/h?article=50e9fa3f&opt=0

[speed13ird]

The rules require an aircraft to land with more than final reserve. At what point is the fuel remaining measured, on landing or on arrival at the parking position?

[bean]

the official preliminary report gives 1115z as time of the occurance but, look at the 1100 metar on avherald

[Chesty Morgan]

Regardless of an EAT you may not hang around your destination below minimum diversion fuel. You have to divert. They didn't. That seems a very serious situation to me.
It's a good job you're retired.

[Chesty Morgan]

The rules require an aircraft to land with more than final reserve. At what point is the fuel remaining measured, on landing or on arrival at the parking position?
It'll be on landing. Unless you're worried about them using over a tonne of fuel for the taxi in.

[70 Mustang]

with both engines running, can eat up a lot of fuel. Delays waiting for a gate, circuitous taxi route. Once, long ago, at Rome FCO, surrounded by thunderstorms, broke off the approach, headed for alternate, but ATC said FCO was okay, and visually I could see the storms had passed, so we turned back. (joint decision) by the time we got to the gate, we had gone well below final reserve. Would this current incident have had to have the fuel qty electronically transmitted upon landing? Thankfully, the event mentioned above, did not trigger any alerts; on a classic 737. I “added” some fuel when writing in the logbook.

[speed13ird]

Chesty, the question was how do the investigators know how much fuel the aircraft actually landed with? I'm guessing taxi in at 600kgph would use about 30-40kg and 2nd detent reverse about the same again, so 80kg?

[thnarg]

As far as I can tell none of us were there to assess the weather around the islands nor at the alternates, nor if they were even accepting diversions. Personally if I were talking to an approach with two long runways and a reasonable assurance of success, that’s where I’d go. Tea with no biscuits if necessary.

Fuel quantity is just numbers on gauges until it goes very quiet. Safety is getting on the ground before that happens.

70Mustang, I think Jet2 still use paper tech logs…

[FlyingStone]

Chesty, the question was how do the investigators know how much fuel the aircraft actually landed with?

QAR data, if FDR wasn't preserved.

[Lake1952]

The shortage of 39 kg is a whopping 12 US gallons of fuel. How accurate are the guages?

[70 Mustang]

I suspect that we are not meant to know how accurate the guages are. The 737-800 used to have a figure of 2.5% but it was removed. A Google search on the subject brought up an older pprune thread specifically related to the 737. Not sure about the airbus figures.

The manuals could provide a figure if they wanted to.

I kept a healthy suspicion of any fuel guage of any machine I used.

[beamer]

Always took an extra tonne to PMI on a Saturday morning knowing full it would be controlled chaos when they swapped runways as the sea breeze kicked in !

[meleagertoo]

Never heard of committing? At one of the largest two-runway airfields in the region?
Well, perhaps senility has struck earlier than expected, and no, I don't recall "committing".
Neither do I recall that in a situation in which adverse weather prevents a landing you are permitted to hang around below diversion fuel in the hope that the weather will clear before you run out of fuel as seems to have happened here. What the fcuk would you do if it didn't clear? Land willy-nilly into the face of a massive Cb, windshear, lighning etc on a contaminated runway? Seriously?
What's the number of runways got to do with it? If there's a Cb dumping its contents over the field it makes no diffference if there are ten runways, they're no more use to you than one.
In my experience (and universal industry practice) if weather precludes a landing/approach as you reach min diversion fuel then you MUST divert. End of.

If I'm mistaken then please be kind enough to explain how and why I'm wrong.

[speed13ird]

Well, perhaps senility has struck earlier than expected, and no, I don't recall "committing". If I'm mistaken then please be kind enough to explain how and why I'm wrong.
because there's more than one reason for a delay than weather?

[Chesty Morgan]

Well, perhaps senility has struck earlier than expected, and no, I don't recall "committing".
Neither do I recall that in a situation in which adverse weather prevents a landing you are permitted to hang around below diversion fuel in the hope that the weather will clear before you run out of fuel as seems to have happened here. What the fcuk would you do if it didn't clear? Land willy-nilly into the face of a massive Cb, windshear, lighning etc on a contaminated runway? Seriously?
What's the number of runways got to do with it? If there's a Cb dumping its contents over the field it makes no diffference if there are ten runways, they're no more use to you than one.
In my experience (and universal industry practice) if weather precludes a landing/approach as you reach min diversion fuel then you MUST divert. End of.

If I'm mistaken then please be kind enough to explain how and why I'm wrong.
Were you there? There would have been a it of a back log of traffic for ATC to deal with and maybe they actually did have an EAT because of it.

Do you genuinely believe that any professional crew would just hang around in the hope the weather will clear? :rolleyes:

[hans brinker]

I don't have METAR/TAFs for the destination and other airports close by, but based on the METARs for PMI and that possibly a local weather pattern known as DANA, Depresión Aislada en Niveles Alto, was affecting the weather in the whole area, so it sounds like bad weather would have been forecast. Haven't flown in that area for a few decades, but used to fly for Air Nostrum (via ACMI). I now fly the A320, not the 737, and in freedom units, so forgive me for any mistakes.
It sounds like they were planned to fly for 2:30, and ended up flying 3:26 after holding at FL350. Guess that holding would have burned around 2000kg, and they landed with 1120kg (questionably precise amount). So the plan was to land with around 3000kg. Alternate fuel would have to be at least around 800kg for either Ibiza or Mahon, and minimum was 1200kg. So they left the UK with about 1000kg extra.
Do these numbers sound about right?
If so they departed with less than 30 minutes extra fuel into questionable weather, and held over BCN at FL350 for over 30 minutes ( based on total flight time) and still decided to continue to PMI, knowing they would get there with adverse weather and no extra and less than alternate fuel.
Even if you agree with the concept of committing, that does not apply here. It would be different if they were holding a low altitude over an isolated airport, where the divert option would be unsure. They were holding at high altitude, and were right above an airport (with even more runways, not that that matters if there is weather.......), so definitely they had other options.
Typing with a drink in hand, in a comfy chair, firmly on the ground.

[70 Mustang]

The "authorities" also will be sitting, comfortably, with drinks, of perhaps coffee, maybe with biscuits while they examine what others did "in battle."

the armchair syndrome incorporated.

They had a successful outcome.

If they had a history of landing with less than final reserves then there should be
a firm bollucking (sp?) But an isolated event should be a lesson session.

[Chesty Morgan]

and still decided to continue to PMI, knowing they would get there with adverse weather and no extra and less than alternate fuel.

Where has this idea come from that they continued knowingly to destination with adverse weather?

[16024]

Originally Posted by meleagertoo
Well, perhaps senility has struck earlier than expected, and no, I don't recall "committing". If I'm mistaken then please be kind enough to explain how and why I'm wrong.

The CAA view may help:

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SafetyNotice2019002V3.pdf


From a common sense view, if the weather is dirty all across the Balearic why would you waste your diversion fuel going somewhere that’s no better (I haven’t seen Ibiza or Menorca WX for that day), and in the 20 minutes or so it takes to get there having to recalculate, rebrief, consult checklists, inform Co, Cc, pax, and all the other stuff with a chance of dropping the ball when you can spend the time in the hold making sure you are giving plan A the best chance it has?

[Boeingdriver999]

Meanwhile Spanish ATC is sitting quietly in the background hoping nobody brings them into this 'handbags at dawn' discussion....

[Equivocal]

Meanwhile Spanish ATC is sitting quietly in the background hoping nobody brings them into this 'handbags at dawn' discussion....
Whilst I am no defender of what I've seen of Spanish ATC, let's wait and see what the investigation tells us.

[JanetFlight]

SIA can give some lessons here 😊

https://avherald.com/h?article=50f11fc3&opt=0