New Hire Rules QF

[ROH111]

This has been leaked by a QF SO who signed on days ago.

In accepting employment I confirm that immediately upon commencing employment I am bidding for a vacancy as a first officer B737 in Sydney and that the company may rely on this document as formally recording this bid then awarding me such a vacancy. I also acknowledge and accept that the company in offering me employment as a Second Officer Under Training (SOT) has done so on the basis that I will submit a bid for the B737 and that should I seek to withdrawal this bid it will be open to the company to withdraw the offer of employment, or should I have already commenced employment, terminate my employment.


Join QF, don’t be an SO. We’ve already got plenty who don’t want to move on. Paul, ex union rep is one I can think of. Still an SO after 16 or so years.

[Capt Fathom]

So what’s the issue. Qantas need FO’s on the 737.
Is that such a bad thing after flogging a 210 around Arnhem Land?

[Wizofoz]

Why would they need to do this? They've just offered direct entry FO in the past.

[Chad Gates]

They can't Wiz. You have to be hired as a SO. Lots in the past have said they would go to the 737 to get an earlier start date, then didn't. So now they will sack you, if you agree and then change your mind.

[transition_alt]

Seems fair after the recent dramas

[high_flyer747]

Is SYD because he chose that base or because thats where QF needs people? Id assume otherwise.

Not a bad thing going straight to a window seat which is rare. Air NZ did a similar thing in the past hiring into the RHS of A320 which is a good thing if thats what you want but weren’t as militant about the t’s and c’s




This has been leaked by a QF SO who signed on days ago.

In accepting employment I confirm that immediately upon commencing employment I am bidding for a vacancy as a first officer B737 in Sydney and that the company may rely on this document as formally recording this bid then awarding me such a vacancy. I also acknowledge and accept that the company in offering me employment as a Second Officer Under Training (SOT) has done so on the basis that I will submit a bid for the B737 and that should I seek to withdrawal this bid it will be open to the company to withdraw the offer of employment, or should I have already commenced employment, terminate my employment.


Join QF, don’t be an SO. We’ve already got plenty who don’t want to move on. Paul, ex union rep is one I can think of. Still an SO after 16 or so years.

[tail wheel]

Placing a condition on employment - I wonder whether that is legal under the Fair Work Act?

Despite the apologies I suspect the policies of Dixon and Joyce may be very ingrained in the current executive.

[Ranger290]

I’m not sure why this is necessarily a bad thing. I was given the option of FO or 78 SO and chose the FO option.

[Global Aviator]

Imagine that getting your dream QF job and having to fly a plane, the horrors that we have to put up with in this industry.

Sarcasm aside if a company has to many pilots in a certain role then what are they to do? What does the current contract say? Make people leave the sanctity of Sandwich Officer to become an FO? Stop employment and ground aircraft?

As I’ve said many times I have no idea about the QF ts & cs but this does sound a little ridiculous!

[ruprecht]

Well, they’ve already lowered new hire SO pay to “encourage” crew to go to shorthaul so I’m guessing that hasn’t had the desired effect.

[DirectAnywhere]

Well, they’ve already lowered new hire SO pay to “encourage” crew to go to shorthaul so I’m guessing that hasn’t had the desired effect.

Precisely.

It’s remarkable that in spite of attempting to make the LH SO contract ****, it’s still viewed by many as better than being a SH FO.

That should give you a pretty good insight into the mindset of management of this place.

Fix the SH contract, and they won’t have these problems.

[Poto]

SH contract needs wholesale change. The vast majority of new SO’s have ‘been there done that’ too. Both factors contribute to the lack of interest.

[ruprecht]

I’d go to shorthaul if I didn’t have to:

a. fly the 737, or
b. fly short distances, or
c. operate out of the domestic airport…

:p

[Chad Gates]

The requirement to recruit into the SO position is to protect the current employees from missing out on opportunities they may want. If there are insufficient bids ( which is the situation now) the current pilots are not being disadvantaged and those positions can be assigned to new hires. It's not there to ensure ensure new hires get an opportunity to be an SO.

[cLeArIcE]

Alot of it depends where you come from. E.g Qlink etc you'd be happy to get the 737. Coming from JQ no thanks. I've spent enough time doing ****ty short haul flying. Why would I be in a rush to do it in a much worse aircraft working the same terrible rosters.
I'll wait for a LH position thanks..



​​​

[Chad Gates]

Alot of it depends where you come from. E.g Qlink etc you'd be happy to get the 737. Coming from JQ no thanks. I've spent enough time doing ****ty short haul flying. Why would I be in a rush to do it in a much worse aircraft working the same terrible rosters.
I'll wait for a LH position thanks..



​​​

And fair enough. That's your choice. The loss of seniority is the only potential downside, but even that is not assured, just don't say yes when they ask.

[CaptCloudbuster]

Now if only the Pilot Group could get our Senior Leaders signature on a document requiring them to honour their word:}

[krismiler]

I started a similar thread in Rumours and News about senior F/Os not wanting to upgrade to junior Captain. https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/653865-no-one-wants-captain.html

Now it's spreading down the ranks, S/O on the Dugong doing 2 or 3 long haul trips a month with 1/3 of the time spent in the bunk, good layover destinations with 5* hotels vs bus driving around Australia doing 4 sector days and actually having to work in return for about the same money.

Something is wrong with either the people being employed or the T&Cs on offer, possibly both.

I heard EK are looking for experienced A320 Captains to go onto the A380 and upcoming A350 as F/Os with Command after about a year on type. Might interest a few JQ pilots.

[The Banjo]

"This has been leaked by a QF SO who signed on days ago".

Did you ask his/her permission to post the information on a public forum? I hope they keep the career offer.

[dr dre]

I started a similar thread in Rumours and News about senior F/Os not wanting to upgrade to junior Captain. https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/653865-no-one-wants-captain.html [l

Those are US airlines (United and American) who operate on a strict seniority based rostering system. It makes some sense to not upgrade until you can hold a decent seniority to get trips you want. Most pilots in Australia aren’t rostered that way.

Now it's spreading down the ranks, S/O on the Dugong doing 2 or 3 long haul trips a month with 1/3 of the time spent in the bunk, good layover destinations with 5* hotels vs bus driving around Australia doing 4 sector days and actually having to work in return for about the same money.

The big difference now is money. In previous days the 380 SO would pull in more than the SH F/O. Now a SH F/O flying a decent number of hours will double a new hire S/O’s pay under the new S/O conditions. Yes, you’ll be working more but now the money earned will reflect that.

[ruprecht]

Yeah, why make shorthaul more attractive when you can make longhaul less attractive :rolleyes:

[mustafagander]

As I recall it, the old contract had a limitation on seniority which allowed QF to assign "the most junior qualified pilot" to a promotion if there were insufficient bids from other pilots. I can't imagine that this regime would have given that away. I think there were some costs to QF in the event that this clause was enforced. In my day it was never an issue coz all slots were bid for with few gaps in the seniority.

[Whispering T-Jet]

Stop whinging. In the mid 80's pilots joining TAA found that, due to the Air Queensland integration, instead of going onto the DC-9 or F-27 in MEL or BNE, they were sent to Longreach to fly Cessna 310's on the Air QLD aeromed contract!

[aussieflyboy]

Yeah, why make shorthaul more attractive when you can make longhaul less attractive :rolleyes:

People voted yes for it… muppets

[morno]

People voted yes for it… muppets

Ah yes, here’s Aussieflyboy with his ill informed ‘expertise’ as usual.

[noclue]

Can a 737 Fo not bid for a so position?

[Australopithecus]

There is a one time only downbid provision in the award, but I believe that it is subject to company approval. That includes bidding down to the same rank on a junior aircraft, ie 787 to A330

[stillcallozhome]

I started a similar thread in Rumours and News about senior F/Os not wanting to upgrade to junior Captain. https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/653865-no-one-wants-captain.html

Now it's spreading down the ranks, S/O on the Dugong doing 2 or 3 long haul trips a month with 1/3 of the time spent in the bunk, good layover destinations with 5* hotels vs bus driving around Australia doing 4 sector days and actually having to work in return for about the same money.

Something is wrong with either the people being employed or the T&Cs on offer, possibly both.

I heard EK are looking for experienced A320 Captains to go onto the A380 and upcoming A350 as F/Os with Command after about a year on type. Might interest a few JQ pilots.

In the US, this is standard practice. You bid according to QOL. Even 10 years ago you would have delta pilots with 20 plus years bidding FO cause it was almost the same money with high seniority.

This is one of the main reasons pilots at Qantas don’t bid for a “promotion”. The SH contract is horrible. Worse than the regionals in the USA. On top of that, the carrot to a window seat that Qantas based people going to the 737 is no longer. The pilots being recruited by Qantas have plenty of experience so there’s no incentive to take a cut in conditions just so you can take off and land.

The SH contract needs serious adjustments to change this imo.

[Capt Fathom]

It’s a shed load of money to fly an aeroplane for a living. If you don’t like it, do something else. It’s not that difficult!

[LTBC]

The technical problem is that new intake pilots are employed under the Longhaul EBA. Pilots can’t be assigned from the Longhaul EBA to the Shorthaul EBA.

Have another read of 20.1.1

[Mr Mossberg]

Ah yes, here’s Aussieflyboy with his ill informed ‘expertise’ as usual.

But they must have voted for it right?

[krismiler]

A pilot from my previous employer joined QF and was still in the jump seat six years later despite opportunities to bid for a window seat. Another one, ex strike so a lot older, went from J41 captain to S/O with Air New Zealand. At his age a command would be out of the question, even the right seat would have been unlikely.

The terms for those in the front seats doing the work need some major improvements to make the multi sector days and responsibilities worth while. An S/O job seems quite attractive with a decent lifestyle, reasonable wages and not being on the hook when something goes wrong.

I’d seriously consider right seat long haul with a legacy airline instead of being left seat on a narrow body if the pay was the same.

[deja vu]

Stop whinging. In the mid 80's pilots joining TAA found that, due to the Air Queensland integration, instead of going onto the DC-9 or F-27 in MEL or BNE, they were sent to Longreach to fly Cessna 310's on the Air QLD aeromed contract!
A C310, lovely old classic, in command I assume. Just for interest what were TAA paying their 310 driver.

[Ollie Onion]

That's my career plan, move from Shorthaul Captain after 20 years to an SO position at one of the big carriers to spend the last 15 years of my career staring out the window on what is still a pretty good wage. All reliant of course on getting in, if not then into a ground role.

[SandyPalms]

Flight Sanding Order released about a month ago advertising up to 60 737 FO positions in 4 of the 5 bases (Adelaide looks almost certain to eventually close through attrition) Results out today and only 30 were allocated.

[Skankhunt]

What is the current progression times at Qantas Mainline?
SO to window seat and Command on 737?

[dr dre]

What is the current progression times at Qantas Mainline?
SO to window seat and Command on 737?

SO to FO 737 - pretty much straight away in most bases.

LH FO about 6 years for the most junior 330. As the A350 begins to arrive this will probably decrease.

Command is just shy of 20 in most bases, I would expect that to decrease soon (there was no recruitment from 09-16 so in a couple of years 2016 starts will be eligible for commands).

[noclue]

How do they select who to offer 737 Fo spots to prior to day 1 or is it everyone?

[On Guard]

How do they select who to offer 737 Fo spots to prior to day 1 or is it everyone?

Everyone on hold got offered it recently. Preference was given to already rated pilots, however I don't think this would be set in stone.

Looks like they didn't get enough take up the offer.

[maggot]

How do they select who to offer 737 Fo spots to prior to day 1 or is it everyone?
​​​​​​ essentially seniority so if it's offered day one, you're the most junior but if you accept you'd get it. Inform recruiting that you will accept and you may spend less time on the hold file - I am not certain, and I doubt, if thats a guarantee but you could ask about that. Practically speaking it's a lock right now.
Note that it's pretty much Sydney and Melbourne.
Bris seems to have enough, adl base is dead and Perth, was the junior window seat base forever now seems to be static and issues with subsidiaries... not sure where that's going.

Don't say you'll do it and change your mind, simples.

[high_flyer747]

Anyone got any latest updates of contracts etc?