Learjet Landing Accident Mumbai 14 Sep 23

[zulu_01]

A Learjet lannding at VABB ( Mumbai ) in heavy rain has gone off the runway. All Pax & Crew are reported to be safe.

https://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/breaking-learjet-aircraft-crash-lands-at-mumbai-airport-all-operations-shut-until-further-notice-first-visuals-surface

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/aircraft-crashes-at-mumbai-airport-with-8-passengers-on-board-11694693364447.ht (https://www.livemint.com/news/india/aircraft-crashes-at-mumbai-airport-with-8-passengers-on-board-11694693364447.html)

[Teddy Robinson]

the "excursion" (https://x.com/rdua65/status/1702308615238164505?s=20)

I would personally term that as a completely destabilised approach resulting in a crash.

[BFSGrad]

All Pax & Crew are reported to be safe.
Safe as in safe in the hospital instead of safe in the morgue. Amazed that any occupant aboard an aircraft that strikes the runway in that attitude can survive.

From the first link in post #1:

An official at the BrihanMumbai Municipal Corporation (BMC) said all 8 people injured in the incident have been hospitalised.

[Ohrly]

A Learjet lannding at VABB ( Mumbai ) in heavy rain has gone off the runway. All Pax & Crew are reported to be safe.

https://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/breaking-learjet-aircraft-crash-lands-at-mumbai-airport-all-operations-shut-until-further-notice-first-visuals-surface

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/aircraft-crashes-at-mumbai-airport-with-8-passengers-on-board-11694693364447.ht (https://www.livemint.com/news/india/aircraft-crashes-at-mumbai-airport-with-8-passengers-on-board-11694693364447.html)

In order to "go off the runway" don't you have to be on the runway at some point?

[megan]

I would personally term that as a completely destabilised approach resulting in a crashA no flare landing I'd call it. ;)

[artee]

A no flare landing I'd call it. ;)
Well it doesn't look like aquaplaning...

[Avman]

Forgive me for I am not without a sense of humour,.However, this is quite a serious accident with people getting seriously hurt. Do we really need this school boy humour? Would we be seeing the same response had it been a UK registered aircraft crashing in the UK? I think not.

[fdr]

the "excursion" (https://x.com/rdua65/status/1702308615238164505?s=20)

I would personally term that as a completely destabilised approach resulting in a crash.

Golly. That is not a happy manner to handle Lears. That makes sense of the T/Rs being stowed, those look like Dee Howards fitted. Planting a plane on its nose and wing at approach speed will give some interesting photo ops.

[fdr]

Forgive me for I am not without a sense of humour,.However, this is quite a serious accident with people getting seriously hurt. Do we really need this school boy humour? Would we be seeing the same response had it been a UK registered aircraft crashing in the UK? I think not.

Actually, I am certain you would.

[atakacs]

Forgive me for I am not without a sense of humour,.However, this is quite a serious accident with people getting seriously hurt. Do we really need this school boy humour?
We certainly do. Especially in this day and age !

[treadigraph]

A no flare landing I'd call it. ;)
Reminds me of the Buffalo "heavy landing" at Farnborough...

Edit: Just to qualify that remark - the Buffalo fuselage survived a very heavy impact (described by Farnborough PR as a heavy landing at the time) as did this Learjet, both allowing those on board to survive.

[Dave Gittins]

In the case of the Buffalo, Bill Loverseed wandered out of the wreck shaking his head and muttering what looked like .... "what happened there ? who did that ?"

A mate of mine at Britannia who had known Bill in the arrows said his eyesight was always suspect.

[Uplinker]

They look as if they are banked to the right at about 40° and with nose down pitch as they 'touch' down. Completely the wrong attitude to be as one crosses the threshold. I am frankly amazed, (but glad), that any survived.

It appears to me that they had no idea they were so close to the runway - can't see if flaps and gear were down, and they did seem to be very very fast.

How, in this day and age, with all the training, the CRM and the studies of previous accidents; does a professional crew get so out of shape and with such absent SA?

If the downpour was so bad;

a) why were they approaching in the first place - what about potential microburst?

b) why didn't they say "nope, we are going to discontinue this approach'.

Does this aircraft type not have Rad Alts?


As for black humour - it is a coping mechanism.

[fdr]

They look as if they are banked to the right at about 40° and with nose down pitch as they 'touch' down. Completely the wrong attitude to be as one crosses the threshold. I am frankly amazed, (but glad), that any survived.

It appears to me that they had no idea they were so close to the runway - can't see if flaps and gear were down, and they did seem to be very very fast.

How, in this day and age, with all the training, the CRM and the studies of previous accidents; does a professional crew get so out of shape and with such absent SA?

If the downpour was so bad;

a) why were they approaching in the first place - what about potential microburst?

b) why didn't they say "nope, we are going to discontinue this approach'.

Does this aircraft type not have Rad Alts?


As for black humour - it is a coping mechanism.

Yup to most of that, the gear and flaps are down though...

They can sign some of that off against the next 12 yearly wing dismount.

[Pilot DAR]

A mate of mine at Britannia who had known Bill in the arrows said his eyesight was always suspect.

A bit of thread drift.... Bill's eyesight was just fine. I flew to Farnborough as a passenger on that Buffalo, and I rode jump seat during the show two days before the accident. I later flew a hundred or so hours ferrying with him after he left DHC. The Buffalo accident had other factors. Bill was not blameless, but it wasn't all him either...

Pardon the drift, back to the Learjet discussion....

[RickNRoll]

Weather like that the fire hoses were probably redundant.

[Tom Cundall]

Any news on the condition of the crew, especially N?

[FullWings]

That has the appearance of a low level LOC more than many other things. Nose dropping, wing going down. It’s difficult to judge the speed but the wreckage came to a halt within the field of view of the camera, judging by the plume of spray. What’s a typical bug speed on one of these? 125kts? Maybe that’s why they survived as it was a minimum energy impact?

As the turn seems to be taking them away from the runway centreline, it doesn’t look like a last minute correction to regain it, so perhaps an involuntary manoeuvre...

[Uplinker]

Sorry, LOC ? Oh, loss of control ?

Yes, to "land" at that attitude is utterly bizarre, so something very wrong must have happened.

Can someone give us a concise explanation of the control mechanisms of this type. E.g. is it fly-by-wire or direct mechanical control. Do the flight controls have hydraulic assistance and what is the manual back-up and redundancy configuration?

[blue up]

Cable. Backup for Ailerons is to disengage and to use Spoilerons instead. Very effective.

[krismiler]

People look at the required visibility on an ILS chart and don't realise that there is a considerable difference between 1000m of haze and 1000m of heavy rain. In haze you will see the approach lights and can expect reasonably stable conditions. In heavy rain it will be lashing down, and even with the wipers on maximum it may not be enough to give you a clear view, and that's before you consider the storm that's producing the rain.

Last week I held for 20 minutes because of because of heavy rain with 1000m vis and wouldn't have tried the approach even if that had been above the minima.

[FullWings]

Sorry, LOC ? Oh, loss of control ?

Yes, to "land" at that attitude is utterly bizarre, so something very wrong must have happened.
I suppose I should have used “LoC” ;)

The horizontal vis doesn’t appear too bad as the camera is some distance away, plus the jet is visible as soon as it comes into frame, so there seems to have been at least some vertical vis as well. I found a higher resolution video (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=learjet+mumbai+crash&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:25a7d763,vid:Kpq5zRxy9iU,st:0) which more clearly shows the pitch and bank which appear not to be being corrected, even though the ground must have been visible at that point. As you say, something must have gone seriously wrong for an aircraft to end up in that attitude at that height.

[blue up]

LR45 doesn't have windshield wipers

[Jwscud]

LR45 doesn't have windshield wipers

Makes for a challenging view in heavy rain. The Bombardier view is that airflow keeps the rain off the windshield. In practice it means you get quite a distorted view as raindrops are constantly running across and distorting the lights even very close to the ground. Takes a lot of getting used to and can be very disorienting if you haven’t seen it before.

[Uplinker]

Is this for real ?

How do you taxi safely in rain without wipers? So you are at the holding point and ATC says line up after the xx. You have windshields covered in rain.......

Then you start your take-off run with windshields covered in rain, with no airflow and no wipers. :)

And we use wipers on some wet approaches in Boeings and Airbus. Why would a commercial IFR aircraft not have them fitted.......are you winding me up ? 😁

[JanetFlight]

Is this for real ?

How do you taxi safely in rain without wipers? So you are at the holding point and ATC says line up after the xx. You have windshields covered in rain.......

Then you start your take-off run with windshields covered in rain, with no airflow and no wipers. :)

And we use wipers on some wet approaches in Boeings and Airbus. Why would a commercial IFR aircraft not have them fitted.......are you winding me up ? 😁

Besides most of the nowadays bizjets lack of wipers, the Mighty DC8 was also famous for the absence of such thing ✈️
Convair 880/990 as well...

[FullWings]

Besides most of the nowadays bizjets lack of wipers, the Mighty DC8 was also famous for the absence of such thing ✈️
Convair 880/990 as well...
Did those use bleed air to clear the screen?

[Uplinker]

I have not flown any commercial types without wipers, but have often been on approach in Airbus/Boeing, in rain and required the wipers to be on - sometimes on high speed. Ditto for taxiing.

And, I cannot check the MEL, but don't inop wiper(s) downgrade the allowable landing category?

So quite how any screen would remain sufficiently clear of distorting rain to preserve good visibility on approach without wipers - even at approach speeds, puzzles me.

And what about starting a take-off roll at night with a rain covered screen - how does that work? Weird.

[megan]

The 45 has a rain removal coating on the windscreen which is subject to a 300 hour test, no wipers or bleed air.