View Full Version : Thoughts about this odd SOP....
oicur12.again
13th Sep 2023, 18:19
My recent return to the sim saw a bleeds off takeoff using the APU to supply one pack.
When responding to the after start checklist item of:
“Packs and bleeds” I responded with:
“Packs auto, bleeds off” which is the actual switch position.
But I was corrected, apparently the correct answer is:
“Packs auto bleeds set”
Which is exactly the same response as for a normal after start bleed configuration.
I comply, no arguments from me.
But doesn't this fly in the face of logic? Shouldn't a checklist response reflect the ACTUAL switch position as apposed to simply replying with a generic response which could be used in either bleed configuration.
It doesn't appear to be a very effective trap for an incorrect bleed configuration?
hec7or
13th Sep 2023, 19:47
In order for the challenge and response to be completely correct, you would need a separate checklist for the bleeds off option, some operators prefer to keep it simple and the "packs set" allows for bleeds either off or on. Airmanship applies in this case, but unfortunately we don't have any checklist items for airmanship. I know that some companies that have a "bleeds off" take off procedure checklist on the reverse side of the normal checklist.
The examiner is quite correct regarding checklist compliance, but blind systemisation can lead to unanticipated errors. It is up to the company to decide whether a separate checklist is needed.
BoeingDriver99
17th Sep 2023, 14:24
When you get down to this level you just nod and smile and go along with whatever the training captain says.
And for the trainers who decide to get picky over stuff like this… imagine what the pilots really think of this kind of thing.
PEI_3721
18th Sep 2023, 06:42
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ShyTorque
18th Sep 2023, 07:14
It appears illogical to me. As you say, the more meaningful response should be to state the actual position of the switch.
What does the SOP say about the response to other switches - for example “landing gear”?
Shy, your logical and reasonable answer would avoid the response to Landing Gear..................... AS REQD.
It is up to the operator to determine how they standardise, but it is irrational to have a response to a variable that doesn't state the system state. If you are briefing navaids, an imperious wave of the hand and a response "set" is hardly a confirmation of the state of the FMC, VOR, DME, ILS etc, so it would seem to follow that a system that can spoil your day, say, like Helios, should have a confirmation of state, and the term SET is interchangeable with, "AS REQD".
Whatever the trainer says, that should be the company policy, and it should be specified as being what the owner of the ball wants, loopy or otherwise.
Take the training, nod, and if it intolerable, vote with your feet. Every system has it's idiosyncacies.. makes it far more interesting.
rigpiggy
29th Sep 2023, 22:49
My recent return to the sim saw a bleeds off takeoff using the APU to supply one pack.
When responding to the after start checklist item of:
“Packs and bleeds” I responded with:
“Packs auto, bleeds off” which is the actual switch position.
But I was corrected, apparently the correct answer is:
“Packs auto bleeds set”
Which is exactly the same response as for a normal after start bleed configuration.
I comply, no arguments from me.
But doesn't this fly in the face of logic? Shouldn't a checklist response reflect the ACTUAL switch position as apposed to simply replying with a generic response which could be used in either bleed configuration.
It doesn't appear to be a very effective trap for an incorrect bleed configuration?this is the config we were taught on the max.