What will a 200h frozen ATPL holder expect?

[Iwanttoflybut...]

Hey air people from all over the world. As my username says, I want to fly. But...

About me:

27 years old, turning 28 this year
Full time employed with a good salary
Living in Germany, still learning the language
EU passport holder
Flying has always been my dream
If I keep my job, I can do modular training without acquiring debt


However, the money question is what can I expect assuming that I do the training and 3 years from now I hold a frozen ATPL with 200 hours on it.
I know competition is fierce, so I don't expect someone to say "you'll find a job in no time, get your TPR funded by the airline, and off you go jetting off to happiness. happy days".
But, realistically, what can I expect? What do people do? How many hours do people usually fly until they get a job?

This part of the puzzle is what I'm missing the most to know, to help me decide if I'm about to burn a whole heap of money on a dream, or not.

I appreciate that many have asked this before with different words & context, but I'll be really happy to read anything you know, want to share, or your experience. It will make a difference.

Thank you :)

[Sh1mmyDamper]

This may sound a bit discouraging, but it is the reality nowadays. (Especially in Europe).

Most fATPL holders who just graduated from flight school will not get a job in the nearest future. Of course, there will always be someone (maybe 5 %) who gets an airline job relatively quickly by luck and being at the right place at the right time, (and these few pilots are the ones flight schools promote and use as evidence in terms of the "pilot shortage")... However the remaining 95 % will end up working typically in a store or as a ground handler with 120k euros in debt.
You have airlines such as RYR where you will have to pay for the type rating yourself, whossh another 30k euros out of the window.
It also seems like more and more airlines are starting their own cadet-programs.

I wouldn't spend 120 000 euros on an integrated flight school unless I was guaranteed a job afterwards, or if it was government sponsored.

But.. If it really is your dream, go for it! YOLO:8

[rudestuff]

Becoming a pilot requires confidence and determination.. You are asking for reassurance. If there is any doubt there is no doubt. Sorry.

[Iwanttoflybut...]

This may sound a bit discouraging, but it is the reality nowadays. (Especially in Europe).

Most fATPL holders who just graduated from flight school will not get a job in the nearest future. Of course, there will always be someone (maybe 5 %) who gets an airline job relatively quickly by luck and being at the right place at the right time, (and these few pilots are the ones flight schools promote and use as evidence in terms of the "pilot shortage")... However the remaining 95 % will end up working typically in a store or as a ground handler with 120k euros in debt.
You have airlines such as RYR where you will have to pay for the type rating yourself, whossh another 30k euros out of the window.
It also seems like more and more airlines are starting their own cadet-programs.

I wouldn't spend 120 000 euros on an integrated flight school unless I was guaranteed a job afterwards, or if it was government sponsored.

But.. If it really is your dream, go for it! YOLO:8

Becoming a pilot requires confidence and determination.. You are asking for reassurance. If there is any doubt there is no doubt. Sorry.

Thanks for both your replies. Re-assurance is something I will provide myself, what I need is realistic outlooks from those who know how much of a struggle it is or may be.

It is my dream, absolutely. I would go down the modular path, keep my day job and incur in 0 debt. But it’s not my dream to get rated, be down a lot of money, and not having a path towards a job. This is what I still do not understand -> other than the RYR 30k route, what are people doing to eventually land in the cockpit of an airliner? Or is it just the fact that most never make it there?
Need to think about it, a lot.

[Flying Wild]

Hey air people from all over the world. As my username says, I want to fly. But...

About me:

27 years old, turning 28 this year
Full time employed with a good salary
Living in Germany, still learning the language
EU passport holder
Flying has always been my dream
If I keep my job, I can do modular training without acquiring debt


However, the money question is what can I expect assuming that I do the training and 3 years from now I hold a frozen ATPL with 200 hours on it.
I know competition is fierce, so I don't expect someone to say "you'll find a job in no time, get your TPR funded by the airline, and off you go jetting off to happiness. happy days".
But, realistically, what can I expect? What do people do? How many hours do people usually fly until they get a job?

This part of the puzzle is what I'm missing the most to know, to help me decide if I'm about to burn a whole heap of money on a dream, or not.

I appreciate that many have asked this before with different words & context, but I'll be really happy to read anything you know, want to share, or your experience. It will make a difference.

Thank you :)

Do you have the right to live & work in the UK? Jet2 do an apprentice scheme which takes you on for a ~year across various departments in the business, then pays for your type rating. Having life experience behind you would put you in a good position.

[Iwanttoflybut...]

Do you have the right to live & work in the UK? Jet2 do an apprentice scheme which takes you on for a ~year across various departments in the business, then pays for your type rating. Having life experience behind you would put you in a good position.

That’s quite awesome! I did have UK right to live and work, but no longer since last year. Nonetheless sounds like a great path for people with an UK license to fly G registered machines.
I am also building my strategy to how can I build a network with airlines, and how can I manage a path towards a cockpit. I just want to avoid going in blindly and relying merely on hope.

[Sh1mmyDamper]

Thanks for both your replies. Re-assurance is something I will provide myself, what I need is realistic outlooks from those who know how much of a struggle it is or may be.

It is my dream, absolutely. I would go down the modular path, keep my day job and incur in 0 debt. But it’s not my dream to get rated, be down a lot of money, and not having a path towards a job. This is what I still do not understand -> other than the RYR 30k route, what are people doing to eventually land in the cockpit of an airliner? Or is it just the fact that most never make it there?
Need to think about it, a lot.

It is good you're researching as much as you can before applying to any flight school. That's shows you're serious!
Ryanair accepts pretty much "everyone" as long as they pay for the typerating. That is why you see so many fresh fATPL holders starting there, cause Ryanair knows they are desperate for an airline job. Other gets accepted by airlines like Wizz air etc. Some are working as flight instructors, TKI, at Burger King, Lidl etc.
The thing is, most people who start at flight school don't think about the consequences. Most won't even make it to the big airliners. And also, don't fall for the term: pilot-shortage, often used by flight schools to lure students. There is nothing called pilot-shortage, there are more than enough jobless pilots with 1000 of hours who are ready to work..

However, if you are dedicated towards becoming an airline pilot, and give everything you have, you will eventually land in the cockpit! Don't forget that.

[rudestuff]

Whatever your decide to do, you won't find a much better time in history to be a pilot. This is about as good as it gets.

[Iwanttoflybut...]

Thank you all! The messages were very helpful.
I am 27, I have no kids and fresh out of a relationship. It feels like the best time to start this adventure, if I am ever too. I am not too old yet to do this and still think about having a family.
For now, my plan remains to do the PPL, network and research the industry, and then decide to/not to continue.
Still waiting for my criminal record (or lack thereof :D) certificates to come through so that I can register at the school.

[kingsult]

Good luck on your journey. Try to make as much experience as possible and network with as many people as you can. It can help you along the line.

[EurofighterRobin]

Go for it.

I was around your age when I started my PPL, freshly free from a relationship and enjoyed my time learning to fly.

I’m now 35, married and have 2x kids, and although I have my PPL I’m struggling to think if I could/should self fund my way to fATPL.

[Aviator172s]

Whatever your decide to do, you won't find a much better time in history to be a pilot. This is about as good as it gets.

What makes you think that? Hopefully you are right, but I don't see same needs or pilots shortage in Europe as it is currently happening in US.
35 yo here, in the middle of ATPL theory pleasure :)

[rudestuff]

What makes you think that? Hopefully you are right, but I don't see same needs or pilots shortage in Europe as it is currently happening in US.
35 yo here, in the middle of ATPL theory pleasure :)
UK Airlines offering fully sponsored positions for starters. They don't do that when they have tons of applicants. Plus the trickle down (up?) effect of US Airlines sucking up pilots, a 4th ME carrier starting up, India ordering a crap load of airplanes etc...
Take everything with a pinch of salt and remember that not everyone is cut out to be an airline pilot. There are plenty of people with a licence who will never be selected for various reasons, and they will tend to have the loudest voices.

[Aviator172s]

UK Airlines offering fully sponsored positions for starters. They don't do that when they have tons of applicants. Plus the trickle down (up?) effect of US Airlines sucking up pilots, a 4th ME carrier starting up, India ordering a crap load of airplanes etc...
Take everything with a pinch of salt and remember that not everyone is cut out to be an airline pilot. There are plenty of people with a licence who will never be selected for various reasons, and they will tend to have the loudest voices.

Yes, you are right about those facts. I guess its not possible to fly in the UK with an EASA licence, but would be a great opportunity tbh.
Hopefully when I get the license, I'll be appealing for an airliner :), and previous work/life experience, degree and maturity outweigh age vs a 20 something.

[paco]

"previous work/life experience, degree and maturity outweigh age vs a 20 something."

Not always - some of them want mouldable personalties to the company line - you would be an independent thinker.

[Aviator172s]

"previous work/life experience, degree and maturity outweigh age vs a 20 something."

Not always - some of them want mouldable personalties to the company line - you would be an independent thinker.
Yes, I understand that. Plus, poor terms and conditions acceptance is also beneficial for youngsters I reckon.

[rudestuff]

If you've got 200 hours it would be a lie to say that you have 800. But if you have 800 it would be true to say that you have 200. With that in mind I think it's reasonable to presume that certain airlines for the aforementioned reasons prefer:
1) 20-year old
2) 200-hour pilots who are
3) fresh out of flight school.

For these reasons a 45 year old or a flight instructor of high hour PPL might be at a disadvantage on paper.
As a long term strategy I recommend doing CBIR SE, MEP and CPL-SE then looking at the market. You can always do the MEIR upgrade and MCC in a couple of weeks if the job market looks bouyant, or you can wait with nothingnothing current.

When it comes to applying you can:

1) have no age or identifying dates on your CV
2) have 200 hours
3) have an MEIR and MCC from last week.

[Aviator172s]

If you've got 200 hours it would be a lie to say that you have 800. But if you have 800 it would be true to say that you have 200. With that in mind I think it's reasonable to presume that certain airlines for the aforementioned reasons prefer:
1) 20-year old
2) 200-hour pilots who are
3) fresh out of flight school.

For these reasons a 45 year old or a flight instructor of high hour PPL might be at a disadvantage on paper.
As a long term strategy I recommend doing CBIR SE, MEP and CPL-SE then looking at the market. You can always do the MEIR upgrade and MCC in a couple of weeks if the job market looks bouyant, or you can wait with nothingnothing current.

When it comes to applying you can:

1) have no age or identifying dates on your CV
2) have 200 hours
3) have an MEIR and MCC from last week.

That seems a bit surprising for me, since I have seen many airlines coming to ATOs and hire a good bunch of FIs straight away, leaving the ATO in question in a delicate situation due to a lack of instructors...
What about being somewhere in the middle (35 yo), like me?
Anyhow, I prefer to focus on what I have control at the moment, which are my grades, exams, flying skills, enjoying the present moment feeling fortunate with what I am doing, and doing some networking in the meanwhile... (philosopher mode ON).

[Ronaldsway Radar]

Go for it my friend, you won’t regret it.

I started my CPL MEIR at age 30, modular after saving to reduce the debt I needed to incur. Finished training in 2019, applied to four UK airlines with my 200hr fATPL and was very lucky enough to have three job offers within three months. Of all the bunch that I trained with at my flying school in the UK, 80% secured employment within the first year. The rest within 18 months. We ended up at in no specific order, Ryanair, Wizz, Loganair, Woodgate, Jet2, and a couple of other places.

The airline I am currently at we have taken on plenty of 200h pilots within the last year or two and will continue to do so. There is a large amount of turnover at the moment as pilots are building experience and moving on to different things. There is by no means a shortage as supply far outweighs demand, however there are lots of opportunities out there for low hour pilots.

Networking helps at some airlines, not so much at others. However it can’t hurt to try.

Good luck, keep doing plenty of research and stay positive.

[smittybuns]

Finished training in 2019, applied to four UK airlines with my 200hr fATPL and was very lucky enough to have three job offers within three months. Of all the bunch that I trained with at my flying school in the UK, 80% secured employment within the first year. The rest within 18 months. We ended up at in no specific order, Ryanair, Wizz, Loganair, Woodgate, Jet2, and a couple of other places.


Do you mind letting us know how many of that bunch ended up paying for their own type rating? As OP mentioned in the theme of the original post, before proceeding with training it would be a good idea to know if there are job opportunities out there that will offer a type rating, or if it needs to definitely be factored into the training budget.

[Iwanttoflybut...]

Wow! Hadn’t checked this thread for some time, and now that I did, I’m impressed with all the stuff on here. Thanks for feeding this discussion, all!
update from me: got all the documents I need to get my “good boy” certificate from German police/govt. which means I should be a student by Jan-ish. If, I go ahead. I am leaning to, just gotta grieve my money and bank account first - it’s a process :D

i also think I’d rather try and fail, and look back thinking: “f* it, I had the chance and took it”, rather than wishing I had done sth I didn’t.

Maybe during the PPL I’ll realize I’m crap at this and won’t go further, who knows? 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Messerschmitt]

Do you mind letting us know how many of that bunch ended up paying for their own type rating? As OP mentioned in the theme of the original post, before proceeding with training it would be a good idea to know if there are job opportunities out there that will offer a type rating, or if it needs to definitely be factored into the training budget.

Are companies in Europe not use the bond procedure if they give you the type rating? In Canada, you get a 20-30k bond that reduces to 0 after 12/24/36 months. So the company pays for your type rating but if you jump ship with your shiny new type rating, you pay the company.

[SaulGoodman]

I haven’t read all the answers so maybe my answer has already been given. As you are 27, you have a good salary already I suggest that you start with PPL and ATPL theory. With the idea that IF you want to continue down the airline route you have already the theoretical knowlegde in the pocket. With the PPL done you know if flying is for you and if this is what you really want. If you don’t like flying the small stuff, you also wouldn’t enjoy flying the big stuff. If you do like it continue with CPL and ME/IR.

[Iflyplainplanes]

Hey air people from all over the world. As my username says, I want to fly. But...

About me:

27 years old, turning 28 this year
Full time employed with a good salary
Living in Germany, still learning the language
EU passport holder
Flying has always been my dream
If I keep my job, I can do modular training without acquiring debt


However, the money question is what can I expect assuming that I do the training and 3 years from now I hold a frozen ATPL with 200 hours on it.
I know competition is fierce, so I don't expect someone to say "you'll find a job in no time, get your TPR funded by the airline, and off you go jetting off to happiness. happy days".
But, realistically, what can I expect? What do people do? How many hours do people usually fly until they get a job?

This part of the puzzle is what I'm missing the most to know, to help me decide if I'm about to burn a whole heap of money on a dream, or not.

I appreciate that many have asked this before with different words & context, but I'll be really happy to read anything you know, want to share, or your experience. It will make a difference.

Thank you :)

From someone with 300hrs who couldnt get into it - dont bother

[rudestuff]

You need money, aptitude and determination to succeed. Many dont have an interest. Most don't have the money. Some people just don't have the aptitude or temperament for this job. Others give up. Not a quality desirable in someone flying an airplane.

[AlwaysWondering]

I have to agree with rudestuff above.

I looked at the person above's old posts and they finished their training with the MCC in 2011. They got one interview and admit they flunked it. They then got another job in a different area. I hardly think that means that there is no hope in the industry.
He then renewed his ratings just before the ATPL exams expired (7 years), but then Brexit and Covid hit. Bad timing I think everyone would agree.

It certainly doesn't show determination to get a job. rudestuff is right that people need to swing with the highs and lows in this industry. That should be a given. A large amount of cash (e.g. €30k) for a type rating with the likes of RYR may also be necessary. He also said before he refuses to pay for UPRT training - it's mandatory so no training = no job.

[Iwanttoflybut...]

I was about to ask “Iflyplainplanes” to describe his journey, cases of unachieved expectations also portray reality and help. And mate, if you want to add anything - please do. For what it’s worth, it helps me get as much data as I can.

update on my journey: got everything ready for sending the German background check (last hurdle to clear before I can enrol as a student).
as soon as I send it, should take 4 weeks to get the cert. During these 4 weeks I will reflect a lot on what to do - but not too much. I think I will anyways love the PPL, and I will have time during its tuition to also assess future moves.

Final note for this post, I really enjoy the activity this thread gets. Feels cosy to read your posts :)

[Iwanttoflybut...]

Yo! Say hello to a new flight student, yours truly :)

[P40Warhawk]

Do you mind letting us know how many of that bunch ended up paying for their own type rating? As OP mentioned in the theme of the original post, before proceeding with training it would be a good idea to know if there are job opportunities out there that will offer a type rating, or if it needs to definitely be factored into the training budget.

I had to pay for my first rating ( B737 ), now on 747, Company deducts certain amount over a period of 3 yrs.

After this, I definetily will not pay ever again for a rating 😄✈️.

[rudestuff]

Hope for the best but expect the worst. Play the long game and start planning from day one. If you're planning to go modular and know you need 3 years to be financially stable and you need a job, then get a job with your target airline doing anything, preferably in the office close to management or flight ops etc and absolutely ******* shine. Then talk to the CP and tell him/her/it what you're up to in your spare time. The rest should fall into place.

[BraceBrace]

This may sound a bit discouraging, but it is the reality nowadays. (Especially in Europe).

Most fATPL holders who just graduated from flight school will not get a job in the nearest future.

I apogolize up front, but this post reads very "spoiled brat". Define "nearest future"?

I got my license right around 9/11 in 2001 and spent +4 years looking for a first job (had an engineering degree so I managed to keep licences "alive"). There have been people who have lost their job due to COVID, but from the moment there was the slightest hint of improvement they were hired, and they now cruising around 777s in a legacy carrier. Not because recovery is fast, but because experience to fill these positions is becoming a rarity on the market. Once experience starts to move seats, the door is wide open. And these doors open pretty much overnight. All you have to do is hang on.

It's not because you have to try for a year, it is a disaster. It is a normal wait. But the door will open.

[Iwanttoflybut...]

I apogolize up front, but this post reads very "spoiled brat". Define "nearest future"?

I got my license right around 9/11 in 2001 and spent +4 years looking for a first job (had an engineering degree so I managed to keep licences "alive"). There have been people who have lost their job due to COVID, but from the moment there was the slightest hint of improvement they were hired, and they now cruising around 777s in a legacy carrier. Not because recovery is fast, but because experience to fill these positions is becoming a rarity on the market. Once experience starts to move seats, the door is wide open. And these doors open pretty much overnight. All you have to do is hang on.

It's not because you have to try for a year, it is a disaster. It is a normal wait. But the door will open.

absolutely love your post. It’s inspiring and motivating.
not to discredit other posts - they have all been helpful. My first lesson is scheduled :) my journey starts now!

[OmarAttia]

I apogolize up front, but this post reads very "spoiled brat". Define "nearest future"?

I got my license right around 9/11 in 2001 and spent +4 years looking for a first job (had an engineering degree so I managed to keep licences "alive"). There have been people who have lost their job due to COVID, but from the moment there was the slightest hint of improvement they were hired, and they now cruising around 777s in a legacy carrier. Not because recovery is fast, but because experience to fill these positions is becoming a rarity on the market. Once experience starts to move seats, the door is wide open. And these doors open pretty much overnight. All you have to do is hang on.

It's not because you have to try for a year, it is a disaster. It is a normal wait. But the door will open.
I totally agree with you very nice comment

[flickrollson52]

Hey man,
So I'm in the industry since I was a teen, and I spent almost 10 years flying questionable airplanes in questionable countries under questionable ICAO licenses.
As my old opportunities disappeared, I decided it was time to go for EASA conversion.
Honestly, these 10 years were painful, but my latest year of converting and fighting EU bureaucracy was the worst.
With that being said, I can't imagine myself dropping out of aviation. It's not the easiest industry, but certainly quite rewarding.
I can only say you should keep your "regular" job for as long as possible.
Good decision on getting your PPL and do networking first, you'll have more info by then to decide whether aviation career is worth it or not.
PS: I had a partner for my CPL/IR conversion checkride, she's from Germany, too. She told me that I should avoid German CAA for now, maybe this will help you in future.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Your OP asked what the situation will be like in three years? Impossible to answer. What if their is a world war with russia between now and then, another 9/11, a new pandemic, a stock market crash, a world recession, oil prices get higher due to the war. You just cannot predict what the job market will be like in 3 years. Maybe one of the above scenarios has come and wen't by the time you get the ATPL and you get hired just as a recession is starting and they suddenly tell you you are back in the hold pool.?

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Do Lufthansa and KLM not have training academies you could apply to?