Schiphol capacity to be decimated???

[fox niner]

We will be having parliamentary elections on november 22 here in NL. One of the hot items is the planned reduction of flights at Schiphol.

Depending on which political party you ask, the target amount of flights varies greatly. Problem of course are the many international treaties that don’t allow such reduction just like that. This might have serious repercussions, including sanctions by the USA or China on the Netherlands. And rightly so.
this debate has started with over-zealous environmentalists like Extinction Rebellion and ExPlane. (and Dutch affiliated parties, especially Schipholwatch)

Unfortunately their actions have spilled over into politics, and schiphol is in serious danger of being hijacked by our elections. Left wing parties call for 50% reduction. Even right wing parties are calling for outright reductions, (10%) despite several treaties which prohibit this, such as:
the European Union
Icao
Open Skies (EU-USA)
Bilateral treaties (NL-China etc)

This creates an unsurvavable situation for local carriers: KLM and Transavia. (Both AFKL)
The most confronting of all this is the fact that aviation is booming, and schiphol will be the only airport worldwide, that will reduce flights.
Have we gone crazy here in NL? You might be able to see a country’s self destruction….

[Michael S]

This is one of the examples how EU countries are sabotaging themselves, damaging their wealth.

[hunterboy]

Yeah, let’s reduce our flights and airport capacities in Europe while the rest of the World concentrate on growing their economies and building more infrastructure . Can’t see that going wrong….

[SWBKCB]

Yes. lets have unchecked growth worldwide. Can't see that going wrong....

[fab777]

And traffic will not even be picked up by the other part of the group, across Belgium, as capacity is stretched out to the max and wide bodies not being delivered in time by the manufacturer ( I’m not even mentioning the crews needed to fly them ). Bad news for everyone.

[fab777]

Yes. lets have unchecked growth worldwide. Can't see that going wrong....

every bit of through traffic will be picked up by airlines based somewhere else, so global effect will be nil.

[172_driver]

I am divided. While it directly affects my trade, I am sick to the bone of the notion of continuous growth. I am the first to declare war on coal power, fast fashion, upgrading to the latest tech devices every 2 year, huge ship cruises etc. Why should I be any different on "summer holidays".

Just because this would go against current treaties doesn't make it entirely wrong. Slowly dismantle it while the industry becomes genuinely green is a reasonable solution? And yes, I understand every party, every country, has to pull their weight. Still doesn't make it entirely wrong, imo.

[jolihokistix]

Surely if it's a global issue, such things should be negotiated quid pro quo with all other hub airports around the world. Target of 5% all round, etc. Initiative to be led by The Netherlands, for example, or XYZ.

[Asturias56]

maybe just restart the A380 line?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/30/peak-polluters-last-chance-close-dutch-government
Worth joining the dots on this. Whether or not you're a conspiracy theorist or not, there is a published global Agenda that the Dutch are pursuing and supporting. Putting food on the table is framed as "killing the planet." Going on holiday likewise. Ireland is also full in on this.
https://www.beefcentral.com/news/irish-farmers-protest-plans-to-cull-200000-cows-elon-musk-weighs-in/
Worth reading the UN sustainability agenda and asking who voted for any of it.

[PAXboy]

This kind of change would take decade. The Pushback from commerce will be immense. But it will probably happen behind the scenes.

Whatever the outcome of the election, except lots of talk and promise but not too much action. Politicians love to talk and promise.

[Asturias56]

they also like to get elected - so they listen to the voters not "commerce"

[DaveReidUK]

Good to see "decimated" being used for once in its correct sense of reduce by 10%. :O

[Tartiflette Fan]

Good to see "decimated" being used for once in its correct sense of reduce by 10%. :O

Indeed it is.;)

To pick up on the trend of the OP, Germany is also pursuing the same general theme with a mad blinkered vision driven by the Greens. It is already clear that the Chinese will capture a lot of the car market traditionally held by German manufacturers, heat-pump manufacturers cannot possibly meet demand, German industry is suffering badly from the highest electricity prices in Europe, inflated by eco-levies. It is amazing how these small groups of near-extremists have been able to capture such key positions in politics and the economy.

A couple of months ago, Habeck - the Green Energy minister - came close to introducing a law enforcing that any heating-system installed from 2024 would have to be powered by at least 65% renewable energy, which meant in nearly all cases a heat-pump, solar or pellet-stoves . The ridiculously short lead-time for planning this measure and lack of capacity ( and finances ) for the heat-pumps meant there was a huge public uproar and the law was shelved ( undoubtedly to be brought out again sometime ).Habeck got a bloody nose and retreated claiming that his intentions had been deliberately twisted by political enemies.

https://www.merkur.de/politik/heizungsgesetz-inhalt-robert-habeck-gruene-faq-heizung-austauschen-oel-gasheizung-verbot-92316606.html

[hoistop]

[i]"It is amazing how these small groups of near-extremists have been able to capture such key positions in politics and the economy."

Agree. But after massive, unprecedented flooding and storms around here, people started to change their mind - and are looking for quick solutions, often based on stories, guessing and social media experts, twisted by alghorytms into extremist babble, instead on as-solid-as-possible facts.
And this wave is what politicians are riding on.

[VHOED191006]

Goes to show that being 'smart' doesn't always equal to being smart.

[Equivocal]

Unfortunately their actions have spilled over into politics, and schiphol is in serious danger of being hijacked by our elections. Left wing parties call for 50% reduction. Even right wing parties are calling for outright reductions, (10%) despite several treaties which prohibit this, such as:
the European Union
Icao
Open Skies (EU-USA)
Bilateral treaties (NL-China etc)Just curious, but in what way do these 'treaties' prohibit reductions in traffic levels?

[Tartiflette Fan]

[QUOTE

[i]"It is amazing how these small groups of near-extremists have been able to capture such key positions in politics and the economy."

Agree. But after massive, unprecedented flooding and storms around here, people started to change their mind - and are looking for quick solutions, often based on stories, guessing and social media experts, twisted by alghorytms into extremist babble, instead on as-solid-as-possible facts.
And this wave is what politicians are riding on.

Are you referring to the Ahrtal ?

[bobbytables]

Goes to show that being 'smart' doesn't always equal to being smart.

it rarely does. Go check out a “smart city” in any developing country of your choice for example. When I see something described as “smart” I generally take it as an indicator that someone is getting fleeced.

[His dudeness]

This is one of the examples how EU countries are sabotaging themselves, damaging their wealth.

True. But it saves Oil/CO2 here, so that China, India, Africa and all the others have more to burn. CO2 stays within borders, you know.

I´ve heard mainly the noise argument brought forward, which is really ....well strange, as aircraft constantly are getting quieter.

[His dudeness]

Indeed it is.;)

To pick up on the trend of the OP, Germany is also pursuing the same general theme with a mad blinkered vision driven by the Greens. It is already clear that the Chinese will capture a lot of the car market traditionally held by German manufacturers, heat-pump manufacturers cannot possibly meet demand, German industry is suffering badly from the highest electricity prices in Europe, inflated by eco-levies. It is amazing how these small groups of near-extremists have been able to capture such key positions in politics and the economy.

A couple of months ago, Habeck - the Green Energy minister - came close to introducing a law enforcing that any heating-system installed from 2024 would have to be powered by at least 65% renewable energy, which meant in nearly all cases a heat-pump, solar or pellet-stoves . The ridiculously short lead-time for planning this measure and lack of capacity ( and finances ) for the heat-pumps meant there was a huge public uproar and the law was shelved ( undoubtedly to be brought out again sometime ).Habeck got a bloody nose and retreated claiming that his intentions had been deliberately twisted by political enemies.

https://www.merkur.de/politik/heizungsgesetz-inhalt-robert-habeck-gruene-faq-heizung-austauschen-oel-gasheizung-verbot-92316606.html

And still they are at it. They were handed an decree by the highest court, cause they tried to ram the law through without enough time for parliament to deal with it. Now they just screw us via the heating oil and heating gas prices (on Friday they will bring in a new law on CO2 privcing)
All Green lefties clientele is not bothered at all, cause they get their heating paid for by the tax paying people.
I´m living in a totalitarian state nowadays.

[Big Pistons Forever]

This is just more environmental theatre. I completely believe that global warming is an existential threat to the planet. However if every airliner was grounded tomorrow the net reduction in world wide emissions would be about 3%. This is not going to move the needle. The biggest irony IMO is an equivalent to 10 % capacity reduction in emissions could be achieved by streamlining the incredibly byzantine and inefficient EU air traffic control system to reduce wasted flight time. Of course that would mean everyone in the EU would have to cooperate and each countries pet ANS might have to give up some control. So much easier to just put that in the "too hard" box and just artificially capacity constrain an airport for a feel good but ultimately pointless exercise in politics :rolleyes:

[AirportPlanner1]

If flights at AMS were dramatically cut it would also hit UK regionals very hard. Even if LH, AF etc eyed Norwich, Humberside etc as good opportunities, there isn’t the slots at CDG/FRA etc to serve all the smaller markets across Europe that KL would have exited from.

[petit plateau]

If flights at AMS were dramatically cut it would also hit UK regionals very hard. Even if LH, AF etc eyed Norwich, Humberside etc as good opportunities, there isn’t the slots at CDG/FRA etc to serve all the smaller markets across Europe that KL would have exited from.

Perhaps folk in the UK are beginning to understand the point of the high speed train network (that the UK has squandered the opportunity to build).

[Asturias56]

" Of course that would mean everyone in the EU would have to cooperate and each countries pet ANS might have to give up some control."

You just have to imagine the screams from the Tory Party and the Daily Mail if UK ATC was run from Luxembourg to see the difficulties

[1201alarm]

I am divided. While it directly affects my trade, I am sick to the bone of the notion of continuous growth. I am the first to declare war on coal power, fast fashion, upgrading to the latest tech devices every 2 year, huge ship cruises etc. Why should I be any different on "summer holidays".

Just because this would go against current treaties doesn't make it entirely wrong. Slowly dismantle it while the industry becomes genuinely green is a reasonable solution? And yes, I understand every party, every country, has to pull their weight. Still doesn't make it entirely wrong, imo.

I can understand where you are coming from. Allow me nevertheless a different point of view.

Growth has to be seen as more output from less input, whatever that input is: resources, energy, labor, etc... That is called progress, and should never end.

We already see it, the CO2 footprint per individual is already decreasing in Europe.

Nevertheless I agree we need to get rid of fossile energy. It just doesn't make longterm sense to burn stuff as energy source. It is inefficient, polluting, and finite. But it will take time. At least politics are waking up, and new generation nuclear electricity production is coming back.

Now back to aviation: I consider aviation one of the greatest achievements in human history. It is the foundation of globalisation and therefore one of the pillars of worldwide wealth. Therefore I think we should first get rid of fossile energy wherever we have technical means to do so. Heating and aircons don't need to be fossile based. Same goes with individual traffic. Then the whole worldwide electricity production doesn't need to be fossile based either. If we decarbonize in these 3 areas, we are already a huge step further in the CO2 problem.

Aviation is only responsible for 2% of global CO2. Considering aviations value to a modern society, and the technical difficulties to make it CO2-free, I think we should give aviation some slack and focus on the big emitters, where we actually have the technology to get rid of CO2.

[FullMetalJackass]

Nevertheless I agree we need to get rid of fossile energy. It just doesn't make longterm sense to burn stuff as energy source. It is inefficient, polluting, and finite. But it will take time. At least politics are waking up, and new generation nuclear electricity production is coming back.

Not in Germany, it isn't - nor will it ever, unless the Greens get ejected out of parliament. What I find bemusing is the reports that the French are planning a new generation of Nuclear Power Stations specifically to be able to generate and sell electricity to Germany, generating massive returns - whilst locating them all along the Rhine river, thus in case of an accident, the contamination will typically be blown into Germany...

That's how dumb German politicians are, to accept such madness instead of building their own nuclear power plants....

[Tartiflette Fan]

Not in Germany, it isn't - nor will it ever, unless the Greens get ejected out of parliament. What I find bemusing is the reports that the French are planning a new generation of Nuclear Power Stations specifically to be able to generate and sell electricity to Germany, generating massive returns - whilst locating them all along the Rhine river, thus in case of an accident, the contamination will typically be blown into Germany...

That's how dumb German politicians are, to accept such madness instead of building their own nuclear power plants....

Can you give a link to that ?