Refused to fly, boss is not happy

[Luray]

Hello all,

Wanted to ask your thoughts.
Given scenario:
5 hour long flight on an airplane with malfunctioning propeller de-ice.
Pilots been on vacation for 2.5 month.
Night flight in IMC with embd thunderstorms and heavy showers for departure that were not forecasted until morning ,but forecast was wrong and flashes and rain seen everywhere. High probability of entering CB welder as airspace is very limited and surrounded by mountains.
No gps coverage for first hour of flight and no xm weather. But vectors provided for terrain clearance and onboard radar is good.
Boss has a very important meeting and already at the terminal waiting for boarding call.
Two captain flying, one is pic and other is sic. Pic decided to cancel the flight until weather clears up (24 hours wait), sic just complied but would take the risk if pic decided to go.
What would you do if you were in similar scenario? Is it a perfect case for cheese model or its just pilot cowardice?

[EatMyShorts!]

Sounds like a hiring scenario for a new job :}

[Big Pistons Forever]

My decision making SOP for any given flight:
Ass, License, Job in that order.
It got me fired from one job, but I don't regret the decision to not fly that day.

[HOVIS]

"pilot cowardice" what a despicable thing to say! 🙄

[B2N2]

Hello all,

Wanted to ask your thoughts.
Given scenario:
5 hour long flight on an airplane with malfunctioning propeller de-ice.
Pilots been on vacation for 2.5 month.
Night flight in IMC with embd thunderstorms and heavy showers for departure that were not forecasted until morning ,but forecast was wrong and flashes and rain seen everywhere. High probability of entering CB welder as airspace is very limited and surrounded by mountains.
No gps coverage for first hour of flight and no xm weather. But vectors provided for terrain clearance and onboard radar is good.
Boss has a very important meeting and already at the terminal waiting for boarding call.
Two captain flying, one is pic and other is sic. Pic decided to cancel the flight until weather clears up (24 hours wait), sic just complied but would take the risk if pic decided to go.
What would you do if you were in similar scenario? Is it a perfect case for cheese model or its just pilot cowardice?

We get paid to say No.

I do apologize for your inconvenience however you pay me to say No.

Then shake his hand and walk away, put the engine covers on and the plane to bed.

[EatMyShorts!]

It also sounds like the SIC in this scenario is in fact the Thread Starter. Right?

[Luray]

It also sounds like the SIC in this scenario is in fact the Thread Starter. Right?

Nope. Pressure was so high I had to spill it out here. Today no one talks to me and other pilots see me as a sissy. Btw I am talking about asian mentality so for them I look like a coward. They rather die than say NO.
I am ok flying with a broken lav or inop flash light, but when a critical system inop my answer is NO. I just don’t understand why some pilots feel ok to gamble with death.

[awair]

Does the aircraft have an MEL?

Sounds like an obvious no-go.

[ACJDriver]

Nope. Pressure was so high I had to spill it out here. Today no one talks to me and other pilots see me as a sissy. Btw I am talking about asian mentality so for them I look like a coward. They rather die than say NO.
I am ok flying with a broken lav or inop flash light, but when a critical system inop my answer is NO. I just don’t understand why some pilots feel ok to gamble with death.

Asian mentality? Pray tell what you meant by it? Go ahead, I'll give you a chance before calling you the R word.

[DGAC]

In Safety, In Comfort, On Time, IN THAT ORDER

[EatMyShorts!]

Nope. Pressure was so high I had to spill it out here. Today no one talks to me and other pilots see me as a sissy. Btw I am talking about asian mentality so for them I look like a coward. They rather die than say NO.
I am ok flying with a broken lav or inop flash light, but when a critical system inop my answer is NO. I just don’t understand why some pilots feel ok to gamble with death.
Wow, you had some balls. You should have added the detail about "Asia" in your first post. Now everything is a bit clearer. You probably did the right thing. Time to change company - if they treat you like this, they are a bunch of.... I heard that Air Baltic is looking for pilots.

[zuluzuluzulu]

Asian mentality? Pray tell what you meant by it? Go ahead, I'll give you a chance before calling you the R word.

seriously? If you’re not aware that cultural differences exist then you really need to get out and see the world ! We’re not all some homogenous global culture where we all think the same.

If you’re a pilot you should be well aware of the steep flight deck seniority gradients that exist in Asia (I’m using this as an example, not saying it was the case here). Denying these things and pulling the R-card helps no one.

[Luray]

seriously? If you’re not aware that cultural differences exist then you really need to get out and see the world ! We’re not all some homogenous global culture where we all think the same.

If you’re a pilot you should be well aware of the steep flight deck seniority gradients that exist in Asia (I’m using this as an example, not saying it was the case here). Denying these things and pulling the R-card helps no one.

Totally agree. Its not about race, its about upbringing and local traditions that helped people survive for centuries but can be very dangerous in high tech environment like airplanes.
I remember asking my former colleague why is he ok risking his life and he told me - "god will protect me".
But I am not worried about it much since we enforce CRM and guys/girls are getting better every day. But business executives are totally different creatures, they live in their own world and when it comes to risk vs profit they won't stop at anything. Look at recent implosion of Titan submersible. They knew the risk but it didn't stop them.

[nomorehelosforme]

Peer pressure has resulted in many high profile fatal accidents over the years, yet time and time again it keeps happening, ultimately the final decision maker should be the pilot, end of!

[Proline21]

Hello all,

Wanted to ask your thoughts.
Given scenario:
5 hour long flight on an airplane with malfunctioning propeller de-ice.
Pilots been on vacation for 2.5 month.
Night flight in IMC with embd thunderstorms and heavy showers for departure that were not forecasted until morning ,but forecast was wrong and flashes and rain seen everywhere. High probability of entering CB welder as airspace is very limited and surrounded by mountains.
No gps coverage for first hour of flight and no xm weather. But vectors provided for terrain clearance and onboard radar is good.
Boss has a very important meeting and already at the terminal waiting for boarding call.
Two captain flying, one is pic and other is sic. Pic decided to cancel the flight until weather clears up (24 hours wait), sic just complied but would take the risk if pic decided to go.
What would you do if you were in similar scenario? Is it a perfect case for cheese model or its just pilot cowardice?

Assuming the MEL prohibits flights into known icing conditions and the given conditions assume a chance of icing I don't see why your boss wants to take the risk. There are many ways in GA to explain to the company/customers what you are prepared to do and what is off limits. Like CRM in the cockpit your arguments and the means of communication is the key to get everybody's nod.

[Luray]

Assuming the MEL prohibits flights into known icing conditions and the given conditions assume a chance of icing I don't see why your boss wants to take the risk. There are many ways in GA to explain to the company/customers what you are prepared to do and what is off limits. Like CRM in the cockpit your arguments and the means of communication is the key to get everybody's nod.
There is no MEL. Its an owners GA high performance turboprop. There is still a POH that forbids flight in to known icing in case of system malfunction. I never had a propeller icing ,only on the ground before moving to a deicing stand and it was shaky. What happens in the air in case of prop Ice i know from the books and it would be fun to loose climb performance inside a СB cloud at night in the mountains:) I explained to the owner that it was dangerous.. really dangerous and he agreed to cancel the flight, but ****. It felt like pulling 30g's:)
___
nomorehelosforme
I agree that pressure is the worst thing, IF ****ty weather feeling lasts only as long as you are inside of it . Peer pressure lasts for days and makes you feel bad and guilty for long time.
Nevertheless , if I travel back in time I would still cancel that flight over and over again. Its better to be fired than kill everyone onboard.
I hope there are still bizjet companies left that appreciate pilots decision not to fly.

[fitliker]

Better to be on the ground wishing you were flying than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground .

[megan]

Local young pilot rostered to fly a freight flight, rang the chief pilot to say he was cancelling because of forecast thunder storms, chief pilot took the flight and broke up in the storms, one less airframe on the line and a new chief pilot required as he had just cashed his chips. Some times experience can lead one down dark alleys. Not comfortable? Say NO.

[Uplinker]

There is no MEL. Its an owners GA high performance turboprop. There is still a POH that forbids flight in to known icing in case of system malfunction. I never had a propeller icing ,only on the ground before moving to a deicing stand and it was shaky. What happens in the air in case of prop Ice i know from the books and it would be fun to loose climb performance inside a СB cloud at night in the mountains :)
I explained to the owner that it was dangerous.. really dangerous and he agreed to cancel the flight, but ****. It felt like pulling 30g's

nomorehelosforme
I agree that pressure is the worst thing, IF ****ty weather feeling lasts only as long as you are inside of it . Peer pressure lasts for days and makes you feel bad and guilty for long time.
Nevertheless , if I travel back in time I would still cancel that flight over and over again. Its better to be fired than kill everyone onboard.

I hope there are still bizjet companies left that appreciate pilots decision not to fly.;

Your boss agreed to cancel the flight on your advice re weather, so where is the problem? If your boss really needed to be at that meeting, S/he would have had a contingency plan, such as going the day before or via surface travel.

Your boss has no knowledge or understanding of icing or bad weather in an aviation context. Worst weather s/he has ever seen in a transport context will have been a heavy downpour on the motorway, where the cars slowed down but kept going. S/he has no concept of propeller or wing icing and the severe performance consequences.

For similar future situations, maybe keep a copy of the relevant limitation pages of the FCOM or Operating manual; where it talks about flight in bad weather, and give that to your boss to read. Then s/he can see it is not you being "chicken", but the manufacturer's limitation, or prohibition. You might also say something along the lines of: "It is prohibited to fly this aircraft in these conditions, and If I did I would lose my licence." Talking about legalities should help because it is not you being restrictive, it is the law, and s/he cannot argue with the law. (If s/he does, walk away.)

As I understand it, the aircraft had weather radar? So you could have avoided CBs and turned back if required?

You should never fly into a CB, or even anywhere near one. Airliners generally avoid CBs by 5-10nm.

You talk about climb performance inside a CB - you cannot out-climb a CB, and nor should you ever try, I am sure you know all that. :ok:

.

[EatMyShorts!]

Your boss agreed to cancel the flight on your advice re weather, so where is the problem?

I understood that the other pilots in this company are snuffing him now for being a coward or for saying no to the big boss, which is unheard of in many Asian places. You do as you are told.

[meleagertoo]

This happens in Europe too.
My first "airline" job was with a small company operating 15 seaters on scheduled routes. Of the four aircraft on the fleet all four had no-go defects on de-icing or IFR conditions (wx radar or AI u/s). Three of them had two or more of these defects. One I think had three. They all continued to fly for the 3 months I lasted before I was sacked for having the temerity to list the fleet's malfunctions (2 pages of typed A4) and handing it to the chief "engineer".
We even had experienced ex RAF pilots going along with this!

[Lomon]

Asian mentality? Pray tell what you meant by it? Go ahead, I'll give you a chance before calling you the R word.
Look up the contributing factors to the Korean Air 801 crash.

[ACJDriver]

Look up the contributing factors to the Korean Air 801 crash.

And I can quote you the Tenerife accident which resulted in the largest number of fatalities on record. Or AF447. Non of the crew were Asian as far as I recall. :=

[ACJDriver]

seriously? If you’re not aware that cultural differences exist then you really need to get out and see the world ! We’re not all some homogenous global culture where we all think the same.

If you’re a pilot you should be well aware of the steep flight deck seniority gradients that exist in Asia (I’m using this as an example, not saying it was the case here). Denying these things and pulling the R-card helps no one.

What is your airline experience level? Haven't aviation taught you not to ASSUME? I've worked for numerous airlines in Asia with multinational crew from all continents in my close to 30 year career to confidently say that I've seen competent and those who are less so in both Asian as well as Western pilots.

And to quote you, "we're not some homogenous global culture where we all think the same" is absolutely true. Asia like Europe is a huge continent of different cultures, languages and races. Adding aviation into the mix, different Asian airlines have different standards, cockpit cultures. Some have a better safety record than others. The same can be said for European carriers as well. Imagine if I use the same assumptions from the OP to say all Europeans have the same mentality.

[EatMyShorts!]

And I can quote you the Tenerife accident which resulted in the largest number of fatalities on record. Or AF447. Non of the crew were Asian as far as I recall. :=
That was 100 million years ago and the Western aviation world has learned from it. Asia (and not only them) seem to still be stuck with these characters and that's why the next crash is just waiting to happen. Reality sucks!

[Luray]

What is your airline experience level? Haven't aviation taught you not to ASSUME? I've worked for numerous airlines in Asia with multinational crew from all continents in my close to 30 year career to confidently say that I've seen competent and those who are less so in both Asian as well as Western pilots.

-Yeti Airlines Flight 691
-Us Bangla Flight 211
-TransAsia Flight 235

Take a minute and find similarities.

[zuluzuluzulu]

What is your airline experience level? Haven't aviation taught you not to ASSUME? I've worked for numerous airlines in Asia with multinational crew from all continents in my close to 30 year career to confidently say that I've seen competent and those who are less so in both Asian as well as Western pilots.

And to quote you, "we're not some homogenous global culture where we all think the same" is absolutely true. Asia like Europe is a huge continent of different cultures, languages and races. Adding aviation into the mix, different Asian airlines have different standards, cockpit cultures. Some have a better safety record than others. The same can be said for European carriers as well. Imagine if I use the same assumptions from the OP to say all Europeans have the same mentality.

Strange post and I can’t work out your point. I never mentioned competence levels, instead you’ve made an assumption that I believe Asian competence levels to be lower, and you know in aviation we shouldn’t ASSUME. Or maybe I’m assuming that you’re making that assumption?

I referred to different cultures and different cultures alone, which you’ve acknowledged exists. do everyone a favour and stop threatening the R word , it closes down discussion and doesn’t do anyone any favors.

[happyjack]

I have had to abandon many a flight due weather. But your approach is very important. Simply stating "it's ****, we aint going" will not do you any favours.
I have always made a point of stating "my job is to get you to your destination safely sir"
When that is not a certainty I tell him.
Get him/her/them relaxed in the lounge with refreshments and then leave them stating "I'm off to see what I can do."
You return with "we go now/ we go in an hour/we cannot go."
'Never had a problem or arguement.
If they take issue with you it's because they don't respect you.
Show them who is boss!

[fitliker]

We are going to need a bigger plane to get through that storm .

[Luray]

.
Show them who is boss!

Hahaha.
It was not like I locked airplane and went home without saying anything. We had a small argument but eventually they gave up pushing me. It was perfectly doable for jet or turboprop if it had prop heat and sharp pilots. But really I could't afford the risk as we were staying home close to 3 month and straight from home to thunderstorms at night with no prop heat was too much. As I got more experience I now understand my limitations. I am no Chuck Yeager as I thought I was a decade ago. Airplanes are just a thing to get you from A to B safe and fast. I don't see any reasons why should airline/corporate pilots push the envelope to see where that "old demon lives".

[megan]

I am no Chuck Yeager as I thought I was a decade agoChuck Yeager was no Chuck Yeager either, wrote off an F-104 and very nearly lost his life in the process, all because his ego wouldn't allow him to be briefed by the project pilot on the issues he was about to face on a world altitude record attempt. I wonder if the burn scars made him recalibrate his ego.

[Asturias56]

Hand out copies of Peter Garrisons "Aftermath" column in Flying every month

[Central Scrutinizer]

If the aircraft in its condition is not approved for FIKI, and there are widespread and unavoidable icing conditions along the route of flight, then you legally can't depart, period. Don't see the big issue with this.

[mryan75]

Asian mentality? Pray tell what you meant by it? Go ahead, I'll give you a chance before calling you the R word.
He's right. It's cultural, not racial. It's been a factor in more than one 121 accident in southeast Asia.

[Private jet]

If the aircraft has an MEL then that is the yes/no discriminator, from a legal perspective. If the aircraft is not certified for flight into known icing then again no go. Apart from that it is the "judgement" of the PIC. That is what a PIC is paid for, that is an intrinsic part, or should I say art? of the job. Remember that professional pilots do need to fly with bad weather conditions from time to time, It's a part of the job. If you are prepared only to fly in nice weather then you are a PPL, with the option to walk away.

[sycamore]

If it is `the Boss`s` personal aircraft ,then you explain that it is unserviceable and until it is fixed correctly,he will find it may go through the same problems again; and if there should be an accident,he may be accountable....

[Luray]

If the aircraft has an MEL then that is the yes/no discriminator, from a legal perspective. If the aircraft is not certified for flight into known icing then again no go. Apart from that it is the "judgement" of the PIC. That is what a PIC is paid for, that is an intrinsic part, or should I say art? of the job. Remember that professional pilots do need to fly with bad weather conditions from time to time, It's a part of the job. If you are prepared only to fly in nice weather then you are a PPL, with the option to walk away.

Totally agree.
I am very grateful to all who contributed in this topic. Its a great support and I feel more confident. I got a salary today so I guess I am not fired yet.
I will do additional CRM training with my colleagues and all should be fine. I never mentioned all my colleagues are ex military. Very good handling of aircraft but safety judgement is different. Not bad, but different.

[His dudeness]

I once flew as a freelancer on a unfamiliar KingAir 200 on relatively short notice. So I went though a very thorough pre flight check and made doubly sure to do all the REQUIRED checks (Rudder boost, de-Ice, prop anti ice, feathering, auto feather ectetc.)... done and just wanted to give ATC the "ready" call, when I felt the owners hand on my shoulder: "what are you doing, don´t you know to fly this airplane, my pilot never does these things, blablabla...") I asked him: "do you want to fly or not ?" to which he said yes. (the A/C was a-okay, everything worked)

WTF ? You want me to take off despite the fact you really don´t think I´m capable to fly your aircraft ?

Thats now almost 20 years ago and I still wonder what on earth goes through the mind of some of our fellow aviators and especially passengers...

I never mentioned all my colleagues are ex military. Very good handling of aircraft but safety judgement is different. Not bad, but different.

A mindset of "I´m better" is deeply engrained in a lot of military aviation folks. My best guess is that it is part of the required skills/mindset in this part of aviation and a Martin Baker underneath you certainly alters how you perceive risk. "They" are certainly "mission minded". But then, so are a lot of non-military guys....

Going through ice in a turbo prop with out prop anti ice is simply asking for it. (I have enough hours in KingAirs to make this statement IMO) Your decision - if your account is accurate - was correct IMHO.

[Uplinker]

You might have seemed to a non pilot that you were "fussing" too much, which might have seemed to him that you were unsure of what you were doing - perhaps his normal pilot did the pre-flight checks in the hangar or well before the owner got to the aircraft? Or maybe his normal pilot did not use a paper checklist, so seeing you use one might have made him think you were reading an instruction manual !!

Airline passengers do not see all the pre-flight checks that we and the engineers do. In smaller GA aircraft, where the passengers sit in the same cabin as the pilot(s), they can observe a lot of what goes on. To a non pilot, pre-flight checks might seem excessive - car drivers don't check every external light, warning light; fluid level; or perform a walk-around every time they drive their car. But of course, we cannot pull over and park on a cloud if anything is wrong !

I have never flown GA, but I guess it would come down to "managing expectations" of rich owners, and maybe keeping a lot of what goes on out of their sight to avoid worrying them ?

[His dudeness]

You can´t check most things I listed without the engines running. I was then proficient enough to go through these items within a very short time. But it involves "revving up" and is sort of noisy. Of course I talked with the regular pilot later and he just never did these checks "because the boss is a nervous flyer".

[Uplinker]

Ah. :ooh:

[megan]

You can´t check most things I listed without the engines runningLocal EMS King Air operator has the procedure that on pilot shift hand over the pilot will ground run the aircraft and do all the checks so that it's cocked and primed to jump in and go should a call come in. Flying SAR our crowd did the same, local GA operator like wise, customer turns up at the appointed time crew jump in and go without going through prop, mag checks etc as they've already been done.

[Central Scrutinizer]

I once flew as a freelancer on a unfamiliar KingAir 200 on relatively short notice. So I went though a very thorough pre flight check and made doubly sure to do all the REQUIRED checks (Rudder boost, de-Ice, prop anti ice, feathering, auto feather ectetc.)... done and just wanted to give ATC the "ready" call, when I felt the owners hand on my shoulder: "what are you doing, don´t you know to fly this airplane, my pilot never does these things, blablabla...") I asked him: "do you want to fly or not ?" to which he said yes. (the A/C was a-okay, everything worked)

This sounds familiar. If the King Air is like the airplane I fly, the correct functioning of the autofeather system must be checked before the first flight of the day and departure with an inop or malfunctioning autofeather is prohibited.

[His dudeness]

Local EMS King Air operator has the procedure that on pilot shift hand over the pilot will ground run the aircraft and do all the checks so that it's cocked and primed to jump in and go should a call come in. Flying SAR our crowd did the same, local GA operator like wise, customer turns up at the appointed time crew jump in and go without going through prop, mag checks etc as they've already been done.

As written, I had never set a foot in this specific KingAir and was on short notice. Was a raisbecked 4 blader, Autofeather mandatory. I`m not sure wether I´d wanted to do the checks and start the engines twice to save 30-45seconds, I went to the school of "if you want to destroy turbines, start em up often". Certainly no operator I ever was with does it that way, but hey, if it works for them...

[albatross]

In my limited experience flying VIPs.
It is not the VIP who gives you grief….it it is their minions, who can not imagine ever saying “No” or giving bad news to their godhead.
This can lead to some funny scenarios.

[172510]

In my limited experience flying VIPs.
it it is their minions, who can not imagine ever saying “No” or giving bad news to their godhead.
.
and perhaps the same would like the boss to crash...

[rigpiggy]

As written, I had never set a foot in this specific KingAir and was on short notice. Was a raisbecked 4 blader, Autofeather mandatory. I`m not sure wether I´d wanted to do the checks and start the engines twice to save 30-45seconds, I went to the school of "if you want to destroy turbines, start em up often". Certainly no operator I ever was with does it that way, but hey, if it works for them...


The raisbeck I flew allowed flight without the "mandatory" autofeather. You did need an extra 8 knots added the the V1/r speeds. Used it once to get home. Another time in the 1900, the afx tested but would not arm during takeoff, reject return to ramp ,test afx.

Due to cold weather the PLA was not high enough to meet the switches, eng. anti ice on same. F/Os leg,I held the switch in test position AFX armed for takeoff, departed released switch through 10k and rearmed from FAF inbound