T8 full pay or no pay

[controlledrest]

With the T8 the Hello Kitty crowd get the day(s) off on full pay, doing even less than an office day.

Flight Crew get their income slashed if their flight was canned, or have to fly risking all.


I hope no one is answering their phones or going the extra mile to help out.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Why do you need to attack completely innocent office clerks in order to make your case? Do you have any idea how much they make? Leave, weekly hours, career options, do you know anything about their lives?
Disgraceful, really.

And everybody will answer as long as it serves them. Including you.

[Al E. Vator]

FFS IF that’s true it’s ridiculous.

With so many positions available globally, can’t fathom the appeal of putting up with that and all the other nonsense.

[controlledrest]

Why do you need to attack completely innocent office clerks in order to make your case? Do you have any idea how much they make? Leave, weekly hours, career options, do you know anything about their lives?
Disgraceful, really.

And everybody will answer as long as it serves them. Including you.

My post wasn't an attack on the office workers. It was to highlight how little respect flight crew (front and rear) are treated with.

And I am NOT answering my phone - ………

[fire wall]

Why do you need to attack completely innocent office clerks in order to make your case? Do you have any idea how much they make? Leave, weekly hours, career options, do you know anything about their lives?
Disgraceful, really.

And everybody will answer as long as it serves them. Including you.

Keep taking it up the rear STW. You are a professional embarrassment.

[HEALY]

If you were rostered to fly and got cancelled can you still log it as typhoon experience in the logbook😄

[Sam Ting Wong]

Keep taking it up the rear STW. You are a professional embarrassment.

You and everyone else would take the LAX turn in a heartbeat. That is the sad truth.

[Asianexpress]

If you were rostered to fly and got cancelled can you still log it as typhoon experience in the logbook😄

To funny.......

They didn't go to work, so I'm guessing no pay....... well done on COS 18.

[sirDA42]

Same 5 people having their weekly little cry about CX.
PLEASE for the love of god next time you think about posting to PPRUNE just think: "Maybe I don't like my situation/CX/COS 18 or whatever it is, but ITS OK if other people do like it/are happy".
PLEASE just remember that next time you feel compelled to type another one of these crybaby posts.
carry on...

[Avinthenews]

Why do you need to attack completely innocent office clerks in order to make your case? Do you have any idea how much they make? Leave, weekly hours, career options, do you know anything about their lives?
Disgraceful, really.

And everybody will answer as long as it serves them. Including you.

Only you would use ground staff to attack pilots conditions, cx can’t wait until you’re a manager you don’t seem to get it or your fully aware and support the fact that cx has a policy where they create a workplace whereby staff not just crew are stepping on each other. Any attempt to have conditions where crew are protected and therefore have no desire to get ahead is not desired.

So something wrong, how low would you like our or the cabin crew’s pay to be before we don’t get our pay docked for not being able to work like the ground staff? You seem to think cabin crew pay is considerably above ground staff or was that conveniently forgotten?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Only you would use ground staff to attack pilots conditions, cx can’t wait until you’re a manager you don’t seem to get it or your fully aware and support the fact that cx has a policy where they create a workplace whereby staff not just crew are stepping on each other. Any attempt to have conditions where crew are protected and therefore have no desire to get ahead is not desired.

So something wrong, how low would you like our or the cabin crew’s pay to be before we don’t get our pay docked for not being able to work like the ground staff? You seem to think cabin crew pay is considerably above ground staff or was that conveniently forgotten?

When and where did I attack pilots conditions (sic) ??? What are you talking about??? Cabin crew pay?? Where and when did I even mention that?? Jesus, whats wrong with you people.

[main_dog]

I think the OP’s point is the inherent iniquity of a remuneration system which in any given month can see your income drop wildly through no fault of your own, for example due to weather cancellations, delays or aircraft maintenance issues, or even simply your rostered flight being assigned to someone else for training or operational expediency.

Highly demoralising, and roughly the equivalent of an office worker being told “oh, don’t bother coming in Tuesday or Wednesday this week, and obviously we’ll be paying you 40% less”.

[Progress Wanchai]

With the T8 the Hello Kitty crowd get the day(s) off on full pay, doing even less than an office day.

Flight Crew get their income slashed if their flight was canned, or have to fly risking all.


I hope no one is answering their phones or going the extra mile to help out.

Ask yourself what on earth you’ve done to receive a cent more than you’re currently getting. You get what you deserve in life.

The strong have left, the weak remain.

[ZootBoot]

Flight Crew get their income slashed if their flight was canned, or have to fly risking all.


I think the only way to make peace with this is to assume base salary is your full salary. Any productivity needs to be viewed as a bonus, not something you will earn in a month.

In FF Kempis has stated that something closer to 70 hours is more appropriate for the threshold.

I assume his bye-bye bonus is linked to this as well, so another anal wart will float off to rot with full pockets.

[fire wall]

You and everyone else would take the LAX turn in a heartbeat. That is the sad truth.

No princess, some of us have a backbone
Read what PW wrote

[Pickuptruck]

I think the only way to make peace with this is to assume base salary is your full salary. Any productivity needs to be viewed as a bonus, not something you will earn in a month.

In FF Kempis has stated that something closer to 70 hours is more appropriate for the threshold.

I assume his bye-bye bonus is linked to this as well, so another anal wart will float off to rot with full pockets.
One of the recruiters sent their monthly roundup of contract jobs out there. On Base salary CX is literally the worst paying job in Asia on a widebody. The end can't come soon enough, an Air China takeover tomorrow would put us all on contracts that would be a hefty pay increase. Wrap your head around that for how far this airline has fallen.

[Frank W. Abagnale]

I think the only way to make peace with this is to assume base salary is your full salary. Any productivity needs to be viewed as a bonus, not something you will earn in a month.

In FF Kempis has stated that something closer to 70 hours is more appropriate for the threshold.

I assume his bye-bye bonus is linked to this as well, so another anal wart will float off to rot with full pockets.

Without any details that info doesn't mean anything.

Assuming that they are short of attracting enough pilots it could mean an increase of Basic Pay to the equivalent threshold of 70 hours to attract more people on a guaranteed pay.
Who knows ?

[Frank W. Abagnale]

One of the recruiters sent their monthly roundup of contract jobs out there. On Base salary CX is literally the worst paying job in Asia on a widebody. The end can't come soon enough, an Air China takeover tomorrow would put us all on contracts that would be a hefty pay increase. Wrap your head around that for how far this airline has fallen.

Cathay used to have access to only 7.5 Million people in Hongkong to find cadets.
With the opening to Mainland China they can tap a country of 1400 Million people to find cadets now.

Best case it takes 7 years to recruit a cadet and put him in the left hand seat.

With the present geopolitical situation I suspect that China could be a closed country for foreign pilots within the next 10-15 years.
All present expats might be replaced with Chinese (unemployed) people in a not so distant future.

'Expats' who might think that they still have a lifetime career ahead of them with Cathay might be in for a rude awakening at some point.

Keep your fingers crossed that this point won't coincide with a worldwide downturn then.
Either way their seniority will be gone and they have to start from scratch somewhere.

[corporal klinger]

One of the recruiters sent their monthly roundup of contract jobs out there. On Base salary CX is literally the worst paying job in Asia on a widebody. The end can't come soon enough, an Air China takeover tomorrow would put us all on contracts that would be a hefty pay increase. Wrap your head around that for how far this airline has fallen.

Which contract would that be? Why don't you put the number and name of the contract on the table to discuss? Not sure if your statement is correct.

[Gnadenburg]

One of the recruiters sent their monthly roundup of contract jobs out there. On Base salary CX is literally the worst paying job in Asia on a widebody. The end can't come soon enough, an Air China takeover tomorrow would put us all on contracts that would be a hefty pay increase. Wrap your head around that for how far this airline has fallen.

As a Dragonair pilot we flew for a significant period leased to Air China. It was drama-less except for the drama-queens who wanted their white superiority syndrome to find issues their closed mines couldn’t deal with.

Soon after we were taken over by CX and nothing could prepare you for the clown car that was their operational control. I’d have taken Air China any day over CX and what a pity we weren’t sold to them instead of the fools you have running you now. How can they stuff expansion up so badly with the most pliable, one sided pilot contract I’ve ever seen? They still have arrogance and sensibilities as if CX is a legacy player that it was previously. You have KA Captains or experienced ex-KA F/O’s sitting in the RHS watching new CX guys bend aeroplanes or if it ever picks up in China, drain demerit points like never before. What an easy fix! Dropping the standard hasn’t worked so why not take a look at long lost training files and promote on ability.

[pill]

The ex KA guys I sit with are quite happy warming the 350's right chair on long haul, with zero interest in belting around the region in the left seat of a 320. Been there, done that. Why bother. The lifestyle is incomparable. Grab the popcorn, sit back and watch capacity stall at 60%, and wait for the Anal Warts next move. Suspect he might have to reach for the cheque book.

[Pickuptruck]

Which contract would that be? Why don't you put the number and name of the contract on the table to discuss? Not sure if your statement is correct.
Jesus, the undying belief in CX being the greatest employer ever never ceases to amaze me. Stockholm syndrome much.

https://jobs.flightglobal.com

Click on your fleet. click on jobs, click on your email. Bingo.

In general, widebody CN ia around $19-23k a month USD tax paid. Positioned back to your home port. If you can understand you're there to do the job their way you'll get along just fine.

[Fac6]

Assuming that they are short of attracting enough pilots it could mean an increase of Basic Pay to the equivalent threshold of 70 hours to attract more people on a guaranteed pay.
Who knows ?

Are you dreaming? An increase of basic pay to the equivalent threshold of 70 hours would be more salary than CoS 08.

Get off that kool aid kid :-)

[corporal klinger]

Jesus, the undying belief in CX being the greatest employer ever never ceases to amaze me. Stockholm syndrome much.

https://jobs.flightglobal.com

Click on your fleet. click on jobs, click on your email. Bingo.

In general, widebody CN ia around $19-23k a month USD tax paid. Positioned back to your home port. If you can understand you're there to do the job their way you'll get along just fine.

I was asking a question about numbers, how can that possibly be a sign of Stockholm? And I am the last person on the planet that would claim CX is the greatest employer. Which is probably the reason I never did.

What I did was checking those numbers myself by the way, and your statement is incorrect. We are of course not the "lowest paid wide body operator in Asia", far from it. Taiwan, Singapore, India, just to name a few out of many pay less. Actually, just look at the local competition in HK.

Now, to your claim there are contracts out there paying 19-23 after tax.

Let's for a moment forget the obvious, like no job security, less annual leave, cultural issues with local crew, maybe 5 or 10 sick days a year, long commute, jet lag in off days, Xiamen or Guangzhou for 20-30 days, many month of training on reduced pay, medical license issues, schooling ,pension or additional tax issues at your home. For the sake of your argument, let's put all that aside. What contract are you talking about?

[Frank W. Abagnale]

Are you dreaming? An increase of basic pay to the equivalent threshold of 70 hours would be more salary than CoS 08.

Get off that kool aid kid :-)

It's not logical to increase the threshold to 70 hours and still pay the present basic pay in the current environment.
Cathay tries to expand and they don't seem to find enough candidates.
And the equivalent of 70 hrs as basic pay would only be a pay increase on first sight compared to the old contracts.
There is still no HDP, 84 hour overtime, 1.5/2.5/3.5 factoring anymore.
As long as people fly at least 70 hours (and with the expansion people people might do that for quite some time) it would be the same COS18 contract and pay at the end, which means it wouldn't cost Cathay a single cent more - even with maximum hours pilots would lose 25% of pay compared to the old contract.
Once Cathay reaches saturation with regard to pilot numbers, they can change the threshold number again, at their sole discretion, according to COS18.
Paying Basic Pay at the equivalent of 70 hours might just be a short term fix to attract more pilots.

As I wrote in the other post:
Mid/Long term I believe that Cathay will get rid of all expats anyways and that they will lower the salaries to something like China local pay once they reached the saturation point of pilots.

So much for the kool aid.

[controlledrest]

Same 5 people having their weekly little cry about CX.
PLEASE for the love of god next time you think about posting to PPRUNE just think: "Maybe I don't like my situation/CX/COS 18 or whatever it is, but ITS OK if other people do like it/are happy".
PLEASE just remember that next time you feel compelled to type another one of these crybaby posts.
carry on...

If people '..like it/are happy' they lack the intelligence or experience to know that COS18 is a dangerous way to work. Pilots are working when they are unfit to do so, just to pay to live another month in HKG.

[Fac6]

It's not logical to increase the threshold to 70 hours and still pay the present basic pay in the current environment.
Cathay tries to expand and they don't seem to find enough candidates.
And the equivalent of 70 hrs as basic pay would only be a pay increase on first sight compared to the old contracts.
There is still no HDP, 84 hour overtime, 1.5/2.5/3.5 factoring anymore.
As long as people fly at least 70 hours (and with the expansion people people might do that for quite some time) it would be the same COS18 contract and pay at the end, which means it wouldn't cost Cathay a single cent more - even with maximum hours pilots would lose 25% of pay compared to the old contract.
Once Cathay reaches saturation with regard to pilot numbers, they can change the threshold number again, at their sole discretion, according to COS18.
Paying Basic Pay at the equivalent of 70 hours might just be a short term fix to attract more pilots.

As I wrote in the other post:
Mid/Long term I believe that Cathay will get rid of all expats anyways and that they will lower the salaries to something like China local pay once they reached the saturation point of pilots.

So much for the kool aid.

Quick back of fag packet numbers based on Capt 4 on the 747F...

70 hours = an extra $100K (approximate) inclusive of the extra PFund. Way more than CoS 08 pay for a Senior Capt at the same level. If he/she/them/they did 84 hours then thats an extra $140K approx

You just dont get it, still you hold on hoping for improved conditions. How many years has the pilot body been saying that better things are coming? I personally think CX are quite happy to be running the airline at reduced capacity at 100% load factors making a ton of cash. it makes business sense to grow it slowly and naturally as pilot numbers increase.

I am not trying to argue with you but if till now you still haven't woken up and smelt those roses then its pointless debating with you. Having said that, there is nothing I wish for more than for you all to get an increase in conditions. You all deserve that for sure.

[Frank W. Abagnale]

The one who doesn't get it is you.

As long as people fly more than 70 hrs It's exactly the same pay package for the company.
This 70 hour BS is just pure marketing spin (to advertise with higher guaranteed pay) to attract more pilots in my opinion as they are short of people and pilots fly at least 70 hrs per months anyways on the passenger fleets.

With regards to the 747 - I doubt that they will use 70 hrs as a basis for a new threshold as they are 'overstaffed' and it wouldn't make sense anyways.
The target hours on the 747 are like 650 hours per year, wich is way less than the 70 hours per month.
My assumption is that CK was talking about that passengers fleets WRT the 70 hours.
I guess they will increase the threshold for the freighter to let's say around 55 hours.

On another note:
There is absolutely no way with COS18 to get even close to COS08.
Flying the maximum of 900 hrs per year is still 40% short of my old pay on COS08 (including housing).

And I am not hoping for improved conditions.
First of all I wrote it a few times already that I believe in the mid to long term Cathay will reduce the package to local Mainland China level.

And second of all I resigned quite some time ago.

Capice ?

[Fac6]

First of all I wrote it a few times already that I believe in the mid to long term Cathay will reduce the package to local Mainland China level.

And second of all I resigned quite some time ago.

Capice ?

Well, we both agree on this for sure.

I resigned 2 years ago and very happy here back home in the US. Quite a few are leaving to go back to CX as we have been messed around a bit with commands.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Well, we both agree on this for sure.

I resigned 2 years ago and very happy here back home in the US. Quite a few are leaving to go back to CX as we have been messed around a bit with commands.

Oh no, I hope PW doesn't read this. So first only "the strong" leave and then they come back to join "the weak" again, or how does that work now?

[mngmt mole]

Coming back to CX...? The ultimate admission of defeat. If it was bad when you had seniority, how much worse will it be without any...?

[Oddball77]

Coming back to CX...? The ultimate admission of defeat. If it was bad when you had seniority, how much worse will it be without any...?
With people like Fac6 coming back to CX, is demonstrating to CX management that COS18 is suffice! Forget about ever getting better T&Cs.

[Fac6]

With people like Fac6 coming back to CX, is demonstrating to CX management that COS18 is suffice! Forget about ever getting better T&Cs.

You are mistaken, I didn't say I am returning.

[Avinthenews]

Who exactly is coming back? Surely they are either unemployed or coming back as CN4 because over the SHORT term they can make more coin.

Younger crew or ex FOs shouldn’t be coming back because they can have a career and lifestyle. Anyone got the demographics?

[Babyjet_dododo]

Who exactly is coming back? Surely they are either unemployed or coming back as CN4 because over the SHORT term they can make more coin.

Younger crew or ex FOs shouldn’t be coming back because they can have a career and lifestyle. Anyone got the demographics?

Anecdotally, I’ve heard of former CNs coming back from Atlas and Fiji Airways, but will be starting at CN1.

[controlledrest]

Anecdotally, I’ve heard of former CNs coming back from Atlas and Fiji Airways, but will be starting at CN1.

Its worse than you think. Those sacked on the bases and now returning come back as new joiners. No sick leave. No FOCs. No seniority. Fare enough if you quit, but the based crew without RP should have been kept on the seniority list until they could return.

The based crew with PR also lost their sick leave (except for the Canadians).

If you think the last GMA was bad, be warned, there is worse to come.

[BuzzBox]

If you think the last GMA was bad, be warned, there is worse to come.

Speaking of which, where did she go?

[Babyjet_dododo]

Speaking of which, where did she go?
she went to Airport operations to F**k S**t up there, if you think the airport is short staffed atm, wait till she has settled in the role.