Captain downgrade to Second Officer?

[zegnaangelo]

I saw this article in HKFP.

https://hongkongfp.com/2023/08/13/furious-pilots-and-a-lack-of-trust-why-aircrew-at-hong-kongs-cathay-pacific-are-quitting-what-was-once-a-dream-job/

It said,

"After flying with Cathay for over 30 years, Ethan, an Australian who also requested to use a pseudonym, resigned as a senior captain in the summer of 2022 to join another airline as a second officer – third in command on the flight deck. It usually takes around 10 years to become a captain, progressing through the ranks from trainee to second officer, first officer, and then captain – of which there are several ranks. But leaving one airline for another often means starting all over again from the bottom.

All Ethan wanted, though, was “a proper contract,” one which he felt fairly reflected his workload and offered stable terms."



I find that hard to believe, a Senior Captain joining another airline and downgrading to a Second Officer? Isn't that position for newbies out of flight school?

[BubbaJ]

Joining a company that has you working under a policy is something a newbie out of flight school might over look. If you have BSJ syndrome and looking to join CX, ask yourself, seriously....Why are Captains, senior FO's and SO's leaving??

[corporal klinger]

We all overlooked it. Turns out we actually never had a durable contract in the first place.
If we had had one, the company could not have annulled it overnight.

[quadspeed]

Time to wake up.

We've had hundreds of Captains and Senior First Officers leave the widebodies of CX for Flight Training Academies, regional turboprops, low-cost carriers and ambulance operations. And all chose to start at the bottom again.

That speaks volume to what's become if this misfit.

[pill]

Some back of ciggy packet maths. I've got 58% of captains have left since Jan 2020. Guess they weren't interested in hanging around under an amendable policy arrangement.
Watch this space, majority of 330/350 pilots with a window seat will be 900 hour limited before the end of the year. Standby for 900 upped to 1000 and flight pay threshold upped 9 hours, I hope not, but these people are very predictable.
I know 3 10 year plus captains personally who are now SO's elsewhere, and I'm a recluse. There'll be plenty more.

[BuzzBox]

I find that hard to believe, a Senior Captain joining another airline and downgrading to a Second Officer? Isn't that position for newbies out of flight school?

It depends on the airline, but most have a strict seniority system where new joiners are hired at the bottom of the seniority list at the most junior rank. If the most junior rank is Second Officer, then that's where all pilots would normally join that airline. Qantas is one such airline.

A number of very senior pilots who either lost their jobs or resigned during the pandemic have ended up as junior pilots at other airlines. Many more decided it was all too hard (and quite frankly a slap in the face), and either retired early or found careers in other industries. The airline industry has lost a huge amount of experience as a result. Unfortunately, that's life in an industry where highly trained people are treated like commodities and experience counts for five-eighths of f@#k all if you change employers.

[zegnaangelo]

It depends on the airline, but most have a strict seniority system where new joiners are hired at the bottom of the seniority list at the most junior rank. If the most junior rank is Second Officer, then that's where all pilots would normally join that airline. Qantas is one such airline.

A number of very senior pilots who either lost their jobs or resigned during the pandemic have ended up as junior pilots at other airlines. Many more decided it was all too hard (and quite frankly a slap in the face), and either retired early or found careers in other industries. The airline industry has lost a huge amount of experience as a result. Unfortunately, that's life in an industry where highly trained people are treated like commodities and experience counts for five-eighths of f@#k all if you change employers.

Wow. I am not an airline pilot. I undersatnd seniority but I thought logically, one should / would join at the most junior of the rank that they currently hold (i.e. most junior Captain). But to kick them down to SO is a little bit rough? I thought that a SO cannot takeoff/land the airplane. So you could have a situation here where your SO on the plane, could be more experienced than the Captain/FO. Or a 15,000 hr SO on par with a guy just out of a cadetship...

[VariablePitchP]

Wow. I am not an airline pilot. I undersatnd seniority but I thought logically, one should / would join at the most junior of the rank that they currently hold (i.e. most junior Captain). But to kick them down to SO is a little bit rough? I thought that a SO cannot takeoff/land the airplane. So you could have a situation here where your SO on the plane, could be more experienced than the Captain/FO. Or a 15,000 hr SO on par with a guy just out of a cadetship...

Seniority defies logic. It’s transparent, but clunky.

Join the day after a cadet, you can flush your 15,000 hours down the toilet.

[veryoldchinahand]

Most consider HKFP ito be at best an unreliable source and this story is almost certainly (lets say) less than 'accurate'

[main_dog]

Be that as it may, most of us personally know of one or more of these occurrences. I know I do.

[Avinthenews]

Most consider HKFP ito be at best an unreliable source and this story is almost certainly (lets say) less than 'accurate'

Which bit? I know several very senior ex captains who are now at the bottom of respective seniority lists at various airlines, as mentioned above at Qantas you will be a S/O, others have started at the bottom as F/Os with airlines that don’t use S/Os.

This is why seniority can be so brutal, taking pay and condition cuts at your present airlines vs starting at the bottom again at another airline.

[BuzzBox]

Most consider HKFP ito be at best an unreliable source and this story is almost certainly (lets say) less than 'accurate'

Rubbish. If you knew anything about the seniority system you would know that senior pilots who move to another airline almost always join that airline at the bottom of the pile, in the most junior rank. Sad but true.

[Wizofoz]

Wow. . I undersatnd seniority.

Clearly not....

[corporal klinger]

Seniority defies logic. It’s transparent, but clunky.

Join the day after a cadet, you can flush your 15,000 hours down the toilet.

Defying logic I agree, but transparent?? If you re-join a certain carrier who cares about the "little things" then you actually might get the choice of fleet, plus your rank, a training position and your old payscale back. And as a bonus you get the chance to fck over your colleagues that endured Covid rules while you spent a few relaxed and comfortable months at home. Sweet.

[Asianexpress]

Defying logic I agree, but transparent?? If you re-join a certain carrier who cares about the "little things" then you actually might get the choice of fleet, plus your rank, a training position and your old payscale back. And as a bonus you get the chance to fck over your colleagues that endured Covid rules while you spent a few relaxed and comfortable months at home. Sweet.

That sounds like a deal that is to good to refuse.

[chards]

Defying logic I agree, but transparent?? If you re-join a certain carrier who cares about the "little things" then you actually might get the choice of fleet, plus your rank, a training position and your old payscale back. And as a bonus you get the chance to fck over your colleagues that endured Covid rules while you spent a few relaxed and comfortable months at home. Sweet.

Did you sign cos 18? Then you fkd your self over.

[smogluver]

Hkfp is totally on the numbers with that article the only thing that is not correct in it is the names of the people involved. CP is a dead duck as an employer, there left seats are now full of rushed through “Kinder Suprises”.

[Veruka Salt]

I actually thought the HKFP article was spot on, & no doubt 1400 + other CX escapees would think so too.

[Brown Nose]

We all overlooked it. Turns out we actually never had a durable contract in the first place.
If we had had one, the company could not have annulled it overnight.

yes you did, you just voluntarily signed away a contract for a CX changeable document. If no one signed, how would it have turned out?

[lucille]

The two edged sword of the seniority system. The employers love it, it deters their more experienced and valuable crew from jumping ship for better conditions. Thus allowing them “squeeze” their crew just that teeny bit more.

With the perennial oversupply of pilots, the seniority system was good for crews - it prevented the dog eat dog scenarios that exist in competitive workplaces.

As flawed as the seniority system may be, the alternatives are far worse.

[Dragon Pacific]

Seniority is well and truly dead in CX. They are currently recruiting several ex KA STCs onto the minibus as DECs.

[BuzzBox]

As flawed as the seniority system may be, the alternatives are far worse.

Are they really, or is that just an excuse? With pilot salaries and benefits arguably going backwards over the longer term, the real beneficiaries of such a system are the senior executives and shareholders.

[Pickuptruck]

Are they really, or is that just an excuse? With pilot salaries and benefits arguably going backwards over the longer term, the real beneficiaries of such a system are the senior executives and shareholders.
"arguably"

I compare CX COS with mates at QF or Air NZ that like me joined their carrier more than a couple of decades ago. There's around an 80% swing between how much they've gone up and I've gone down.

Factor in that the f*cked Hong Kong housing market has seen gains of about a quarter of what you'd have got in Canada or Oz or NZ over the same time period............

[corporal klinger]

yes you did, you just voluntarily signed away a contract for a CX changeable document. If no one signed, how would it have turned out?

I find your line of argument ignorant with all due respect. I and many others did not "voluntarily" sign anything. We were blackmailed. You ignore the fact that the old "contract" expired simply because one party gave notice. Turns out it wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
Your phantasy of "nobody signing it" is neither helpful nor logic. It's frankly cynical. Anything can be changed anywhere if by some magic spell everybody would act in union. There would be no war, no poverty, no global warming, no dictators. It's not helpful to dream about a non-existent ferry tale society.
The company acted as they did because they could digest people leaving as a consequence. That is the reality. A durable contract in the true meaning of the word and as stipulated by yourself serves as protection for the individual employee. Where was that protection when it was needed? We never had a proper contract, that is the sad truth, it was an illusion.
If you are honest to yourself, you simply have to acknowledge that. As the title of this thread suggests, the cost of starting at the bottom can be very high. Just because you had a way out, a plan B, the right age, a helpful passport, no mortgage etc doesn't make you a better or smarter person.

[lucille]

Are they really, or is that just an excuse? With pilot salaries and benefits arguably going backwards over the longer term, the real beneficiaries of such a system are the senior executives and shareholders.

I agree, the seniority system is much beloved by employers - they are virtual handcuffs for senior crews.

How else can you manage career progress transparently? Certainly not with an opaque “merit” based one. There will be many and varied interpretations of the word merit.

[chards]

I find your line of argument ignorant with all due respect. I and many others did not "voluntarily" sign anything. We were blackmailed. You ignore the fact that the old "contract" expired simply because one party gave notice. Turns out it wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
Your phantasy of "nobody signing it" is neither helpful nor logic. It's frankly cynical. Anything can be changed anywhere if by some magic spell everybody would act in union. There would be no war, no poverty, no global warming, no dictators. It's not helpful to dream about a non-existent ferry tale society.
The company acted as they did because they could digest people leaving as a consequence. That is the reality. A durable contract in the true meaning of the word and as stipulated by yourself serves as protection for the individual employee. Where was that protection when it was needed? We never had a proper contract, that is the sad truth, it was an illusion.
If you are honest to yourself, you simply have to acknowledge that. As the title of this thread suggests, the cost of starting at the bottom can be very high. Just because you had a way out, a plan B, the right age, a helpful passport, no mortgage etc doesn't make you a better or smarter person.

And if you are honest with yourself you can acknowledge that you made a decision and direct entry captains over the top of you is a consequence of that so don’t blame anyone else.

[Freehills]

Happens all the time in other industries too. Senior person decides they no longer want the bull****, so join another firm in a much junior and less stressful role. This guy sounds sensible. Turn up at QF as a SO, monitor flights during cruise, have a good life. Doesn’t need to impress the neighbours any more

After COVID, a lot of over 50’s have retired early/ switched to ‘barista retirement’

[Asianexpress]

Seniority is well and truly dead in CX. They are currently recruiting several ex KA STCs onto the minibus as DECs.
True, as well as all of the ex CX Captains that resigned during Covid.

At least the CX Captains get DOJ and L4 pay, the KA STC's will be on L1 with a reset DOJ and loss of all benefits.

[deja vu]

True, as well as all of the ex CX Captains that resigned during Covid.

At least the CX Captains get DOJ and L4 pay, the KA STC's will be on L1 with a reset DOJ and loss of all benefits.

You see, this has been the problem. Asianexpress is happy that one group of employees or soon to be colleagues are going to get screwed for their benefits. When did these sort of people join a once great airline, ...about the the time the cadet scheme was introduced and sycophancy became the norm.
I don't want my family even flying on CX anymore.

[corporal klinger]

You see, this has been the problem. Asianexpress is happy that one group of employees or soon to be colleagues are going to get screwed for their benefits. When did these sort of people join a once great airline, ...about the the time the cadet scheme was introduced and sycophancy became the norm.
I don't want my family even flying on CX anymore.

I don't see any posts of Asian Express auggesting what you are accusing him?

Big difference to re-hire someone who got fired as opposed to someone who quit, at least in my opinion. No issue with the former, the latter not so sure.

[Brown Nose]

I find your line of argument ignorant with all due respect. I and many others did not "voluntarily" sign anything. We were blackmailed. You ignore the fact that the old "contract" expired simply because one party gave notice. Turns out it wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
Your phantasy of "nobody signing it" is neither helpful nor logic. It's frankly cynical. Anything can be changed anywhere if by some magic spell everybody would act in union. There would be no war, no poverty, no global warming, no dictators. It's not helpful to dream about a non-existent ferry tale society.
The company acted as they did because they could digest people leaving as a consequence. That is the reality. A durable contract in the true meaning of the word and as stipulated by yourself serves as protection for the individual employee. Where was that protection when it was needed? We never had a proper contract, that is the sad truth, it was an illusion.
If you are honest to yourself, you simply have to acknowledge that. As the title of this thread suggests, the cost of starting at the bottom can be very high. Just because you had a way out, a plan B, the right age, a helpful passport, no mortgage etc doesn't make you a better or smarter person.


you literally signed it! you had a contract. and signed it away. Don’t waffle. It is contrary to HK law to be forced to sign a new ‘contract’ you are simply weak and deserve all that comes your way

[corporal klinger]

Primitive, uneducated and rude. I will ignore you in the future, "debate" with someone else.

[main_dog]

And also wrong. We didn’t actually sign away anything, we were all essentially terminated with 3 months notice. Contemporarily we were offered the choice of either signing a new ‘contract “ (actually mostly a policy document, to be modified at their whim) or the door. At the end of 2020, with the covid crisis deepening and no jobs anywhere, very few could afford to do anything but comply and sign the new “contract”.

But there was no signing away anything: the old contract was gone, whether you chose to sign the new one or not.

You’re right, no-one can be forced to sign anything, but equally an employer can at anytime simply give an entire workforce 3 months notice while simultaneously offering a new, inferior deal. Apparently nothing in the labour law here forbids that. If they chose their time well, when that workforce is most vulnerable, many will have no choice but to sign.

[YeahNahYeah]

Seniority is well and truly dead in CX. They are currently recruiting several ex KA STCs onto the minibus as DECs.

for a second there I thought you wrote they were recruiting onto the crew shuttle… the pay and conditions for those drivers is probably more stable!

[KABOY]

I don't see any posts of Asian Express suggesting what you are accusing him?

Big difference to re-hire someone who got fired as opposed to someone who quit, at least in my opinion. No issue with the former, the latter not so sure.

I think everyone including yourself was terminated with the notice period. The only difference was the KA guys were offered a payment in lieu of notice and a redundancy.

However all you got was an inferior contract and no notice or redundancy. Your simplistic understanding of employment law might make you feel you were retained, but realistically you signed up to an inferior contract after being terminated.

CX rolled the dice on all the pilots, knowing how many would cling to the job regardless of conditions. The contract was as strong as the resolve of the pilot group, so I suggest you do some research before proclaiming what the contract was worth.

"United we stand, divided we fall" probably the best adage

[corporal klinger]

Kaboy, maybe next time you jump into a discussion you take the effort to read through the posts to understand the context. You condescending tone is misplaced. I was commenting on re-hiring CX CN's who quit during the pandemic and are now re-hired as opposed to Ex-Dragon who never had the choice, got fired and are now re-hired to (interestingly) worse conditions than the former group.

To your" lack of unity" theory behind the successful transition to COS, well that is not very helpful. You would have no dictators, no war, famines, no global warming and no World Cup in Qatar if people would willing to come together and act reasonably and united. It's a wet dream. Humans don't t work like that, and again, if we had had a contract worthy of the term you would not have needed imagined magic unity.By the way, hiring out of seniority was anyway always possible, there is of course no legal way to stop a company in HK doing so. Fact is we never had a contractual protection for anything, just market forces in our favour. Once those forces turned against us and they could not care less if people quit, they acted as they did.

[Brown Nose]

Kaboy, maybe next time you jump into a discussion you take the effort to read through the posts to understand the context. You condescending tone is misplaced. I was commenting on re-hiring CX CN's who quit during the pandemic and are now re-hired as opposed to Ex-Dragon who never had the choice, got fired and are now re-hired to (interestingly) worse conditions than the former group.

To your" lack of unity" theory behind the successful transition to COS, well that is not very helpful. You would have no dictators, no war, famines, no global warming and no World Cup in Qatar if people would willing to come together and act reasonably and united. It's a wet dream. Humans don't t work like that, and again, if we had had a contract worthy of the term you would not have needed imagined magic unity.By the way, hiring out of seniority was anyway always possible, there is of course no legal way to stop a company in HK doing so. Fact is we never had a contractual protection for anything, just market forces in our favour. Once those forces turned against us and they could not care less if people quit, they acted as they did.

klinger, standing united comes down to the individual first. Individuals like you that capitulate are the individuals that don’t unite and back your own argument.