MAS 122

[crikeys]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12403995/Sydney-Airport-security-incident-flights-stopped-fire-trucks-called-runway.html

[das Uber Soldat]

16R is closed. Videos of some lunatic ranting about Allah from inside the cabin on social media. QF1 stuck at the gate. Police riot vehicles appear to be running around the airport. Just another day in paradise.

[PoppaJo]

Almost identical thing happened over 5 years ago in Melbourne, same airline, and same bomb threat. Male was given a 12 year prison term.

[ACMS]

There’s a 15 kt southerly

So, 99% of a/c are using 16L whilst 25 has been used for a 747 and a A380….

why can’t they use 25 for ALL departures and 16L for ALL arrivals at the same time?

they've cancelled a truck load of services due to the single runway movement rate….

the mind boggles…..

[missy]

There’s a 15 kt southerly

So, 99% of a/c are using 16L whilst 25 has been used for a 747 and a A380….

why can’t they use 25 for ALL departures and 16L for ALL arrivals at the same time?

they've cancelled a truck load of services due to the single runway movement rate….

the mind boggles…..
100% agreed. I've seen 16L ARR and 25 DEP used in anger. 3 mile spacing RWY 16L, 1800m and airborne RWY 25. ATC could move a lot of traffic using this runway configuration.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Not sure a fully laden 380 bound for Dubai could take off on 25.

[skotos]

According to flight aware they were doing 692 mph at 36,000ft on their way back to Sydney. Isn't that super-sonic?

[ozbiggles]

There’s a 15 kt southerly

So, 99% of a/c are using 16L whilst 25 has been used for a 747 and a A380….

why can’t they use 25 for ALL departures and 16L for ALL arrivals at the same time?

they've cancelled a truck load of services due to the single runway movement rate….

the mind boggles…..

Maybe if it boggled a little bit harder it might figure out other things might have been happening on the airfield at that time

[SHVC]

One thing has been proven, all WB can use 16L so no need to require 16R in the future just because you don’t want to taxi that far.

[SHVC]

It has to be said, this was very poorly handled by AFP and SY airport corporation. 4hrs to remove the person in question effectively stopping operations into Sydney airport at a peak period. Twitter post at the time it was clear he was a nutter with his rambling the probability of a device is minimal if any AFP should have just entered the aircraft but I guess it would of taken 4hrs for the approval of stairs to be towed on A and then finding swissport staff.
SY airport should have been able to manage a regular flow, it took them 5hrs to NOTAM the use of A5 could have NOTAM RWY closed past B8 turbo props and NB jets could have maintained their schedule instead of the displacement of thousands of ppl.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

SY airport should have been able to manage a regular flow, it took them 5hrs to NOTAM the use of A5 could have NOTAM RWY closed past B8 turbo props and NB jets could have maintained their schedule instead of the displacement of thousands of ppl.
It wouldn't have been SYD Airport calling the shots. They'd just be following the directions of the police in regards to exclusion zones etc. I'm sure they wanted to get back to business just as quickly as everyone else did.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

According to flight aware they were doing 692 mph at 36,000ft on their way back to Sydney. Isn't that super-sonic?

No, it isn’t. True airspeed + wind component = groundspeed. (You’re not by any chance the passenger who got angry at a 767 crew for being ‘supersonic’ between Perth & Sydney a few years ago, are you?)

[SHVC]

It wouldn't have been SYD Airport calling the shots. They'd just be following the directions of the police in regards to exclusion zones etc. I'm sure they wanted to get back to business just as quickly as everyone else did.


Fair enough. AFP alone handled it poorly. 4hrs to remove someone really?!

[Capt Fathom]

AFP alone handled it poorly. 4hrs to remove someone really?!

And your reasoning is….?

[ScepticalOptomist]

And your reasoning is….?

….4hrs is a LONG time to remove a pax from an aircraft. :ugh:

[Max Tow]

….4hrs is a LONG time to remove a pax from an aircraft. :ugh:

Would it be worth considering the UK procedure under which security threats are sent to Stansted (to avoid disrupting LHR & LGW) where there is suitable remote parking and, I'm told, an on-call "welcoming committee" should the situation require?

[flightleader]

To chase all passengers out of the international terminal building from midnight to 3am is also part of very poor management.

[skotos]

No, it isn’t. True airspeed + wind component = groundspeed. (You’re not by any chance the passenger who got angry at a 767 crew for being ‘supersonic’ between Perth & Sydney a few years ago, are you?)
Nope, not angry. Just a sky watcher curious at how quickly they got back.

[missy]

Normally AsA ATC would be requested to provide a representative to the Emergency Operations Centre to act as a Liaison Officer. Perhaps no-one was available due to Operational Requirements or perhaps the person available didn't have any ATC experience, or their input dismissed or overruled by the NSW Police.

Exclusion zones are published and scenarios would've been workshopped by all agencies, especially ATC and Sydney Airport based on the wind / weather. RWY 16L for ARR, RWY 25 for DEP seemed an obvious option but perhaps the 40 minute recall for RWY 07/25 was a factor.

[neville_nobody]

What was the logic behind parking the aircraft at the end of the runway? What is wrong with a remote parking bay somewhere?

[Capt Fathom]

Are there any 'remote' bays at Sydney that would allow for a big bang and not damage anything around it?

[RampDog]

16R is closed. Videos of some lunatic ranting about Allah from inside the cabin on social media. QF1 stuck at the gate. Police riot vehicles appear to be running around the airport. Just another day in paradise.
That's quite possibly what that mental case was hoping for i.e. his day in paradise :{
Very seriously though, The MH122 cabin crew deserve bravery awards for their courage facing the threat, hopefully their Government (maybe even ours) will recognise them.

[neville_nobody]

Surely they haven't sat there for 4 hours if they are worried about a bomb going off.

[RampDog]

NSW Police have jurisdiction and control for this type of declared emergency, AFP would provide counter terrorism response.
Sydney Airport Corporation facilitates the emergency response to the responding authorities.
...and for what it's worth Menzies provided the stairs, MH is their contract.
I think everyone knows and should understand that in this type of emergency the response has to be measured and there are well practiced procedures in place.
Unfortunately, Joe and Josephine Average hate having their day disrupted, they just want to board and get to their next destination, no thought that there are a couple of hundred people locked in that metal tube, thinking that this could possibly be the last few hours on the planet.
The final outcome is all the proof that our systems and safeguards are working!

[VHOED191006]

In the MEL incident, they were onboard within 90 minutes. Between the MEL incident and this one, what differences were there? There was a bomb threat made on both.

[Lead Balloon]

NSW Police have jurisdiction and control for this type of declared emergency, AFP would provide counter terrorism response.
Sydney Airport Corporation facilitates the emergency response to the responding authorities.
...and for what it's worth Menzies provided the stairs, MH is their contract.
I think everyone knows and should understand that in this type of emergency the response has to be measured and there are well practiced procedures in place.
Unfortunately, Joe and Josephine Average hate having their day disrupted, they just want to board and get to their next destination, no thought that there are a couple of hundred people locked in that metal tube, thinking that this could possibly be the last few hours on the planet.
The final outcome is all the proof that our systems and safeguards are working!
A prominent Sydney radio station commentator, with contacts in NSW police, said this morning that it was AFP’s trainset.

I’m not saying he’s correct…

[RampDog]

Neville_Nobody - Quite possibly they did..... and don't call me shirley:E
https://youtu.be/ixljWVyPby0
Figure it this way though, if the responders are not 100% sure of a bomb threat situation and they assault the scene, then there is a probability that there are going to be multiple casualties, including amongst the responders.
They are elite and this is not how they are trained to respond, fight or resolve.
The end result is proof of how well we can handle these situations, there are some gung ho jurisdictions in other countries where there well may have been fatalities.

[RampDog]

Only the named authorities can confirm or deny how this event played out.
SYD Emergency procedures define that NSW Police control the scene of declared full emergencies at SYD, that's the hierarchy of control.

[ACMS]

Maybe if it boggled a little bit harder it might figure out other things might have been happening on the airfield at that time



ummmm mate mate mate……..I’m aware of the MH A330 sitting on the south end of 16R on taxiway A6……yes it was the reason 16R was closed, I know.

they did use 25 for 1 UPS 747-400 departure to SHA and an A380 landed on 25 that I watched.

so 25 was available to use.

my comment and mind boggling remains over their stupidity in only using 1 runway when 2 could have been utilized easily and NOT come anywhere near the exclusion zone around the MH 330. Indeed a lot of aircraft taxied close to MH A330 along L after landing…!!!!



So genius, what’s the reason they couldn’t use 16L for landings and 25 for dep at the same time and hence double their movement rate?

[PoppaJo]

Old mate Andrews was questioned over the Melbourne response, too slow, police couldn’t find armour, special ops took half an hour to get there….and so on…

He simply said ‘nothing to see here’. That is generally code in Andrews land for ‘there is a lot to see here’

[missy]

What was the logic behind parking the aircraft at the end of the runway? What is wrong with a remote parking bay somewhere?
There are no "remote bays" designated and it would be very courageous for a Police Commander to choose a location other than in the plan.

Are there any 'remote' bays at Sydney that would allow for a big bang and not damage anything around it?
No.

[missy]

I think there are 3 related issues.
1/. Decision to use 34L A6 as the remote location.
2/. Runway mode operated.
3/. Time to de-escalate the situation and return operations to normal.

Given MAS122 was an air-return then there was time to plan the intended remote location. The use of 16R as an arrival runway possibility influenced the use of 34L A6. Was the aircraft offered or did they require 16R? Either way then the aircraft could've been taxied to one of the other designated areas on 16L (lesser of two evils).

Given use the closure of 16R then the use of 16L seemed obvious however other options could've been considered. As mentioned, 16L ARR and 25 DEP or 25 ARR and 16L DEP seemed obvious.

Pleased that all are safe. If 1/. and/or 2/. were different then there should've less disruption overall.

[framer]

Was the aircraft offered or did they require 16R?
I can’t imagine too many wide body Captains choosing the 2200m runway over the 3000+m runway in the situation that they were in.

[KittyKatKaper]

What's the bet that we'll now all get extra security checks/scans, because obviously there was a 'MacGyver'-style threat that had to be work-shopped.

Waiting on a runway for 3 hours after 1 hour notice of a problem does not inspire me with a lot of confidence in the outfit that was 'in charge'.

[framer]

To be honest I thought they would have stopped all arrivals and departures for half an hour or more,so I’m mildly impressed with the response.
Is there a chance that a more efficient runway mode was possible but due to ASA staff retention failures it was unable to be implemented?

[C441]

What was the logic behind parking the aircraft at the end of the runway? What is wrong with a remote parking bay somewhere?
Or at the end of 16L rather than 16R?

[Mach E Avelli]

Surely they haven't sat there for 4 hours if they are worried about a bomb going off.
A dedicated extremist hoping for a hot date with 72 black-eyed virgins would not embark on a protracted rant like this guy did. The real deal are more inclined to rattle off a quick "Allahu Akhbar" and push the button/pull the string/pop the pin and blow everything up before someone can take them down. Or just sit quietly fingering their worry beads waiting for the device to go bang at a preset altitude or time.
Once the aircraft landed, the authorities would probably have assessed the risk as relatively low, but they still needed to be sure there was no device planted somewhere running on a timer.
Though it is surprising that they didn't do a rapid evacuation.
Of greater concern now is how this fruitcake gets sentenced. If they drop him in the loony bin for 5 years and then he gets out, who is to say he won't be like that other nutter in the Lindt Cafe disaster? They had pre-warning that he was a crazy radical, too.
The Israelis would have dealt with this guy quite differently. If they hadn't shot him, they would never release him back into public life.

[markis10]

Only the named authorities can confirm or deny how this event played out.
SYD Emergency procedures define that NSW Police control the scene of declared full emergencies at SYD, that's the hierarchy of control.

Correct, NSWPOL are the controlling body for all emergencies, however Fedpol have the baton when it comes to enforcement ie arrests

[jj232]

"Operational Restrictions" quoted on the ATI.

Maybe this was the best they could do with the available staffing? Who knows. Should all run a lot smoother when SY APP relocates to ML in a couple of years. No doubt that is the reason for doing it. Smoothness.


Don’t hold your breath for that DROPS, The relocation project is currently flatlining and appears to be heading down the road of another ASA failed project.

As for 16L for arrivals only, with weather on final on many heavies in the mix I doubt a higher arrival rate could of been achieved, maybe 2 or 3 max. All these aircraft would then have to cross an active runway to get to the terminals as well as dealing with all the departures waiting to go off 25. 16L arrivals 25 Departures isn’t a mode ever used also, I think in the interest of safety what occurred was the safest given the situation.

[red_dirt]

What's the bet that we'll now all get extra security checks/scans, because obviously there was a 'MacGyver'-style threat that had to be work-shopped.

Waiting on a runway for 3 hours after 1 hour notice of a problem does not inspire me with a lot of confidence in the outfit that was 'in charge'.

I know right, I mean when was the last time you were the on scene commander at a potential extremest attack. Clearly you managed to pull them all of covertly

[ACMS]

Don’t hold your breath for that DROPS, The relocation project is currently flatlining and appears to be heading down the road of another ASA failed project.

As for 16L for arrivals only, with weather on final on many heavies in the mix I doubt a higher arrival rate could of been achieved, maybe 2 or 3 max. All these aircraft would then have to cross an active runway to get to the terminals as well as dealing with all the departures waiting to go off 25. 16L arrivals 25 Departures isn’t a mode ever used also, I think in the interest of safety what occurred was the safest given the situation.

sorry but I call bs…what weather on final? You mean a little cloud and a shower or two!! Common man it wasn’t even remotely close to LVP……

so aircraft can’t safely and quickly cross 25 between departures? Really? Maybe go to KSFO or KLAX for a reality check.

there were 2 nice black asphalt surfaces built for purpose and available for Aircraft to use………..USE THEM.

Australia happily allow multiple Jets into places like Harvey Bay uncontrolled mixing it with GA and you think this was too dangerous!!!

[VHOED191006]

sorry but I call bs…what weather on final? You mean a little cloud and a shower or two!! Common man it wasn’t even remotely close to LVP……

so aircraft can’t safely and quickly cross 25 between departures? Really? Maybe go to KSFO or KLAX for a reality check.

there were 2 nice black asphalt surfaces built for purpose and available for Aircraft to use………..USE THEM.

Australia happily allow multiple Jets into places like Harvey Bay uncontrolled mixing it with GA and you think this was too dangerous!!!
You use and configure your runways in whatever mode you are allowed to operate them in. That's the bottom line. 25 arrivals and 16L/R departures is one mode. You also adhere to the rules and regulations set by the regulator. You work with what you have.

[jj232]

sorry but I call bs…what weather on final? You mean a little cloud and a shower or two!! Common man it wasn’t even remotely close to LVP……

so aircraft can’t safely and quickly cross 25 between departures? Really? Maybe go to KSFO or KLAX for a reality check.

there were 2 nice black asphalt surfaces built for purpose and available for Aircraft to use………..USE THEM.

Australia happily allow multiple Jets into places like Harvey Bay uncontrolled mixing it with GA and you think this was too dangerous!!!


the reference to weather ACMS is that a radar standard was required to be maintained between a departure and a missed approach as the tower couldn’t visually seperate, I wasn’t implying it was atrocious.

As for the comparison to KSFO and KLAX I am pretty certain those towers wouldn’t have rated half their tower staff since COVID, some straight out of the college.

When you say Australia is happy to let jets mix it up with GA in places like Harvey Bay I can assure you the air traffic controllers are anything but happy, if they had any say in the running of ASA you wouldn’t see another TIBA ever again, unfortunately their opinions are constantly ignored and in some cases they are even made out to be the problem.

[Deaf]

Though it is surprising that they didn't do a rapid evacuation.

As in the MEL incident the important thing is to wait for the media to show the heroic, competent method of dealing with the situation. If a few people are killed so what

Just as is MEL as I said then

[Mach E Avelli]

As in the MEL incident the important thing is to wait for the media to show the heroic, competent method of dealing with the situation. If a few people are killed so what

Just as is MEL as I said then
Yep, even though there may be only a very remote chance that the threat is real, the mere fact that they decide to park the aeroplane in an isolated area should be enough reason to get the pax off as quickly as possible. If there was zero risk, they would return to the terminal.
Not saying that they need to hurl passengers down the slides (which inevitably injures some) but surely policy shoud be to get them out immediately and move them away?
What happens when a bomb threat is received in an office, or shopping mall, or a passenger terminal? We evacuate first, often heading for a nominated assembly point.
In this case it appears that old mate the crazy one was not armed, so in no position to prevent pax leaving. In any case, surely among a couple of hundred anxious people, a few would have shoved him out of the way, had the order been given to leave.
Or was he threatening to pull the trigger on something unseen if they did leave?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

What happens when a bomb threat is received in an office, or shopping mall, or a passenger terminal? We evacuate first, often heading for a nominated assembly point.
Except for the people in the same room as the one making the threat. The people in that room are his bargaining chip. He's not going to let them leave. Witness other hostage negotiations, because that's what this effectively is.
Unless people are getting hurt, the aim is to get everyone out safe, usually including the perpetrator, and however long that takes is how long it takes. If things start going south, that's when other options need to be explored, right up to the point where collateral damage becomes acceptable if it prevents further violence. In this case, it appeared that there was no immediate danger to the passengers and crew, so a low level peaceful resolution could be implemented. Which it appears is what happened. So it took 3 hours.....so what? Everyone walked away in one piece.

[Mach E Avelli]

Except for the people in the same room as the one making the threat. The people in that room are his bargaining chip. He's not going to let them leave. Witness other hostage negotiations, because that's what this effectively is.
Sure, that can sometimes be the case, though the baddy usually flashes a weapon or shows a bomb (sometimes later found to be fake). In that situation one can understand everyone treading softly, softly.
But this guy showed no weapons and not much aggression unless you count finger-wagging as threatening. At one stage he is head down bum up praying. Not exactly the way a serious terrorist acting alone would risk being overpowered.
I am surprised that no one jumped on him at that point. Are cabin crew no longer trained in basic restraint methods, or allowed to use restraint ties? Was there not one passenger in the crowd prepared to belt him when he got in their face?
Have we really become that passive? Reminds me of my chooks.
However, all may not be as it seems in the videos seen to date. I guess we will have to wait for more details of how it went down.

[PoppaJo]

PR departments don’t want its aircrew on social media putting passengers in a headlock etc, especially if they are non violent, and just a nut job like this bloke. The cabin crew here obviously came to the conclusion that they were just dealing with a mental patient, they sat with him and just listened to his bull****. He did mention apparently that he was lying about having an explosive device, the authorities doing the intelligence work in the meantime wouldn’t be taking his word for that regardless, so the investigation would continue.

Some crew get a little too involved at times also. That Virgin pilot getting into a fight with the pax was a good example, sometimes it’s better to say nothing and just wait. I can assure you as I have seen, they will sack or demote you should you get on the wrong side of being involved.

[Mach E Avelli]

Poppa Jo, fair comment.
Though if the authorities were not prepared to take him at face value about not really having a bomb, it doesn’t explain why the pax had to sit there for four hours, instead of disembarking pdq.

[PoppaJo]

Poppa Jo, fair comment.
Though if the authorities were not prepared to take him at face value about not really having a bomb, it doesn’t explain why the pax had to sit there for four hours, instead of disembarking pdq.
We will likely never know. Even if they screwed up, Minns or Andrews, or whoever will never admit that. As seen down south, you can drag these things via some form of independent inquiry, old mate Andrews still wriggles out of any wrong doing.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Poppa Jo, fair comment.
Though if the authorities were not prepared to take him at face value about not really having a bomb, it doesn’t explain why the pax had to sit there for four hours, instead of disembarking pdq.
That's why. If they can't be sure, they're not going to antagonise him into doing something rash by taking away his toys. The pax were comfortable, they had food and drink. No one was getting hurt. Softly, softly.
It's amazing how passengers who paid to sit in a seat for nearly 9 hours were suddenly now "trapped" in them for 3 hours. FFS it's not like they were laying on their stomach with their hands on their head on a bank floor or anything.

[MalcolmReynolds]

Should have overpowered him immediately and restrained him. NO chance he had any device on him. Disgusting making all the pax and crew wait in fear for four hours. Cops need to grow a pair!

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Should have overpowered him immediately and restrained him.
Who should have?

[MalcolmReynolds]

The crew, I would have.

[neville_nobody]

That's why. If they can't be sure, they're not going to antagonise him into doing something rash by taking away his toys. The pax were comfortable, they had food and drink. No one was getting hurt. Softly, softly.

But if the Police aren't sure why are they waiting there 4 hours?? Either get everyone off or get out of the way onto a remote bay, then take as long as you like.

Honestly if there is a credible bomb threat then it really should be a precautionary disembarkation.

If it's none of the above then really you have a hijack situation as the suspect is calling the shots. If that's the case then all bets are off and you do whatever it takes, including sitting there for hours.

[Capt Fathom]

Hindsight, such a easy thing to comment on! Like all such incidents, no doubt there will be plenty of debriefs and discussion and lessons learned for future events.

[PoppaJo]

The delay is likely due to counterterrosim teams and other intelligence agencies, digging deep into the manifest, and the male. It would appear that this male is just a mental patient, so likely not on any watch lists, which would cause some delay while those behind closed doors are trying to sort out who he is, not only that, any other connections he has on board. Not only that, digging into his past. Takes considerable time if he is not known. Have they missed an extremist who has gone un noticed, that becomes very problematic and concerning if true.

Operation Silves was a reminder around those who can slip through the cracks, huge alarm bells for the above teams if this male had managed to sneak through with an explosive device. Just another reminder about the continued risks this industry will always face, will always be extremists looking for opportunities.

[megan]

The delay is likely due to counterterrosim teams and other intelligence agencies, digging deep into the manifest, and the male. It would appear that this male is just a mental patient, so likely not on any watch lists, which would cause some delay while those behind closed doors are trying to sort out who he is, not only that, any other connections he has on board. Not only that, digging into his past. Takes considerable time if he is not known. Have they missed an extremist who has gone un noticed, that becomes very problematic and concerning if trueYou have a firm grip on reality Poppa, :ok: prior preparation prevents piss poor performance, known as the six P's in some areas.

[No Idea Either]

anito4a

you need to remove the above post my friend. Doesn’t matter if it is the same person you shouldn’t post something like that. What if it it isn’t him and his employer sees it, he could get fired. Pull your head in…………

[anito4a]

anito4a

you need to remove the above post my friend. Doesn’t matter if it is the same person you shouldn’t post something like that. What if it it isn’t him and his employer sees it, he could get fired. Pull your head in…………

Fair enough. Done.

[No Idea Either]

Nice work anito4a, and I wasn’t defending him, IMO a .50 cal with a high spec IR scope could have ended this very quickly. Not good for the 330 but it’s all about saving the lives of the victims. I thought the law enforcement mantra was to eliminate the ‘active’ threat now days. Apart from the odd ‘slow response’ to school shootings in the US, most are now charging in and shooting the active threat. Bit callous I know, but it’s about the victims possible outcome, not the offender. As for the positioning of the aircraft, I would have thought that a position where law enforcement and fire authorities could approach from any angle would be better.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

most are now charging in and shooting the active threat.
It's a little hard to charge into an aircraft. There's limited ingress, extremely restricted movement inside, and a lot of people who look like the guy you're after standing in basically the same path between you and whoever you're looking for because there's nowhere else to stand. Besides, this guy wasn't violent. Sure he'd made some veiled threats, but any pictures/videos I've seen just had him chanting some mantra or sitting talking with FAs. He hadn't shot anyone and thrown their body down the stairs. Or even brandished a weapon of any sort that I'm aware of. Ultimately the most he's done is inconvenience a lot of people. Pretty sure that's not a capital crime. If it was, I'd be pretty happy to point out a few deserving souls on the M1 weekdays.