AIPA to AFAP

[smiffysarmy]

Rumour has it QF Group pilots including main line are heading over to AFAP from AIPA. It doesn’t surprise me but mainline does. I thought AIPA looked after main line guys/girls, obviously not.

[Capt Fathom]

Interesting 'first post'. :}

[VisualPurple]

I have heard similar. Think the Apia members are really starting to lose faith in the union. With the history of negotiators moving into management jobs with the airline and poor outcomes for the pilot group during negotiations and an almost unwillingness to fight for improvements (particularly in short haul). Members are starting to question the integrity of the union and whether they are just paying a percentage of their income back to a sub department of the airline.

I and many others I have spoken to view the upcoming Short Haul EA bargaining as a last chance for AIPA. If the negotiations aren’t seen to be achieving favourable outcomes and a more aggressive approach back to QF IR the flood gates will open and AFAP will be the choice of union moving forward.

[PoppaJo]

What makes you think the other mob are going to change the world?

I can tell you right now, they won’t. They still need to negotiate in a sub par VA agreement then they have a full suite of useless new agreements.

[VisualPurple]

Lol, fair call. TBH I haven’t done my research on the AFAP yet either. All I know is that I’m unhappy with the current arrangement, and there is a feeling that AIPA is just too closely tied to the company and some separation might be what’s needed to reignite the industrial fire. Perhaps the best bet moving forward is just to keep that extra percentage of my income and watch as the company’s wage policies get waived through agreement after agreement.

That being said I am getting behind AIPA throughout this EA and hoping that they can deliver!

[dr dre]

What makes you think the other mob are going to change the world?


The two main AIPA negotiated agreements (QF LH and SH) are the two best enterprise agreements negotiated for airline pilots in this country. All AFAP negotiated agreements are inferior.

[Ladloy]

The two main AIPA negotiated agreements (QF LH and SH) are the two best enterprise agreements negotiated for airline pilots in this country. All AFAP negotiated agreements are inferior.
The bar isn't set very high.

[aussieflyboy]

The two main AIPA negotiated agreements (QF LH and SH) are the two best enterprise agreements negotiated for airline pilots in this country. All AFAP negotiated agreements are inferior.

You’re comparing an airline that has been around for over 100 years with airlines that have been around for less the 50. Why don’t you compare a Qantas Pilots wage with an American Airlines or KLM Pilots wage as a fair comparison.

[dr dre]

Why don’t you compare a Qantas Pilots wage with an American Airlines or KLM Pilots wage as a fair comparison.

That’s comparing Australia to overseas. The topic is about pilots in Australia potentially choosing between the two unions here in Australia to negotiate an EA. And it’s clear that between those two there is one which has negotiated better agreements than the other.

So the question would be rather than just resigning AIPA and joining AFAP out of spite and supposed disillusionment, what specifics can AFAP bring to the table that would give them the ability to achieve a better agreement than AIPA?

[PoppaJo]

Judge them on the next VA agreement. A good outcome would be giving those good people the old base pay back with lost and future increases reinstated, that’s at a minimum let alone any other clauses.

I can assure you they will negotiate in some backwards bull**** that will get about 60% approval rate, like the others they just dished up. Sure, Pilots are to blame they vote the crap in, but as far as I believe, any agreement that is waved through in the 60s is nothing but a failure on the unions part, and those involved in such negotiations should resign.

[mince]

The only union with any balls in this country is the TWU. The sooner everyone gets on board with them the better off we will all be…..

[gordonfvckingramsay]

The only union with any balls in this country is the TWU. The sooner everyone gets on board with them the better off we will all be…..

If you’re a truckie they might be, but pilots are basically forgotten.

[mince]

They’ve held Qantas to account for their shoddy actions plenty of times lately.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

They’ve held Qantas to account for their shoddy actions plenty of times lately.

For example…..

Don't get me wrong, I’m not saying AFAP or AIPA are any less incompetent, I just don’t see the TWU kicking any goals either. Hence Australian pilots are currently hundreds of thousand of dollars per year behind the rest of the aviation world.

[Callsign Please]

I love this, because since late last year AIPA have been making inroads to NJS and Eastern (and Network if I heard the refueller right).
Is it some grass greener feelings at both ends, or bigger gripes with the stagnating status quo?

Great topic, this will be a good thread.

[spiritofoz]

The two main AIPA negotiated agreements (QF LH and SH) are the two best enterprise agreements negotiated for airline pilots in this country. All AFAP negotiated agreements are inferior.

and how long ago were the foundations of these EAs negotiated? Do you really think the current AIPA negotiators/COM would be able to negotiate something as good as what is the best in the country’ as you say? I hope I’m wrong, time will tell.

[KAPAC]

Shuffling the letters around in the hope someone takes better responsibility for everyone’s pay and conditions is worth a try but I think the problem runs a bit deeper ? Good luck though !

[Buttscratcher]

AIPA is rolling over in the Network EBA.
You'd think a solid outcome there would also help Short Haul achieve better goals.....
Hearsay only, but apparently Legal feel that it's 'too hard'
Great support, thanks for the fishes

[maggot]

First I've heard.

There's the usual rabble raisers that head to afap with stars in their eyes every now and then.

Not sure what they're trying to accomplish.

How well does afap look after crew that may get themselves in strife with the HR side of things?

My long term experience with the SHEA going back to the original FO B scale (!) Is that aipa has improved this award by leaps and bounds. It takes time, you won't find instant gratification in either office.

[spiritofoz]

First I've heard.

There's the usual rabble raisers that head to afap with stars in their eyes every now and then.

Not sure what they're trying to accomplish.

How well does afap look after crew that may get themselves in strife with the HR side of things?

My long term experience with the SHEA going back to the original FO B scale (!) Is that aipa has improved this award by leaps and bounds. It takes time, you won't find instant gratification in either office.


how would aipa handle a HR dispute differently than AFAP would?

[dr dre]

how would aipa handle a HR dispute differently than AFAP would?

Not much difference. Either you’ve breached company policy or you haven’t, and whatever union you have representing you isn’t going to make much difference to the final outcome.

This isn’t like the 1950s where powerful unions could protect misbehaving members.

[ddrwk]

and how long ago were the foundations of these EAs negotiated?

The SH agreement? That award (as it was back then) was forced onto pilots as a complete reset after some event that took place in 1989. Pilots had no (positive) input into it and it was 11 pages long.

[ddrwk]

Not much difference. Either you’ve breached company policy or you haven’t, and whatever union you have representing you isn’t going to make much difference to the final outcome.


I disagree. Sure a union can’t change the fact that you may have breached something, but how you’re dealt with from that point can be significantly impacted not only by the quality of your representation, but whether you have any representation at all.

[maggot]

Not much difference. Either you’ve breached company policy or you haven’t, and whatever union you have representing you isn’t going to make much difference to the final outcome.

This isn’t like the 1950s where powerful unions could protect misbehaving members.
Its not just that black and white.

I don't know though, that's why I asked.

[Xhorst]

The only union with any balls in this country is the TWU. The sooner everyone gets on board with them the better off we will all be…..

Did you notice that just about every TWU member in Qantas was recently out-sourced?

Nice work, TWU.

[1234fly]

the loyal network lifers some happen to be AIPA reps who appear to have stockholm syndrome....the same ones who pushed the crap EBA back in 2016 on the pilot group are all due for big back pays. looking like they are going to take care of themselves rather than look at the big picture for all the pilots in the airline/all of australia....race to the bottom or pure selfishness?