Virgin Atlantic pilots consider strike over fatigue

[Asturias56]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-66421175Pilots at Virgin Atlantic have indicated they would consider going on strike following "serious concerns" about fatigue and their wellbeing.

Union Balpa said that in a recent vote, 96% of Virgin Atlantic pilots supported a ballot on industrial action. At issue are scheduling and rostering arrangements that were put in place during Covid which will come to an end in December. Virgin said it was willing to enter into talks in the coming weeks. The airline said the existing pay and lifestyle agreement was "agreed, developed and supported by Balpa pilot representatives within Virgin Atlantic, and our pilot community".

A spokesperson for Virgin Atlantic said: "We continue to honour all agreements and have offered to enter formal pay and lifestyle negotiations with Balpa's pilot union representatives in the coming weeks, well in advance of the agreement expiring in December."

Airlines were one of the worst hit industries during the pandemic after international travel came to a standstill to stop the spread of Covid. Virgin Atlantic employs 835 pilots and it is believed the majority are members of the Balpa pilots' union. A spokesperson for Balpa said: "Our members have registered a trade dispute with Virgin Atlantic arising out of serious concerns relating to pilot fatigue and wellbeing around scheduling and rostering arrangements, implemented during the Covid-19 pandemic." It said that 81% of its Virgin Atlantic union members voted in the ballot which its said gave Balpa "an overwhelming mandate to pursue this dispute".

The maximum flying time for a commercial pilot is 900 hours per calendar year, according to the Civil Aviation Authority. It is understood that the rostered average for Virgin Atlantic pilots is around 750 hours.

Virgin Atlantic is part of Virgin Group, which was founded by Sir Richard Branson. The billionaire recently told the BBC that he feared losing his entire business empire, which also include gyms and hotels, during the pandemic. He said the shutdowns cost him £1.5bn personally. Sir Richard had asked the UK government for help in 2020 but was rejected. In the end, Virgin Group injected £200m into the airline and secured other investment to keep the business afl oat. At the time, it cut 3,500 staff, leaving it with 6,500 employees.

On Sunday, a spokesperson for Virgin Atlantic said that the airline "underwent a radical transformation as a result of the impact of Covid-19, which was possible due to the collective effort of our amazing people". They said: "This was fundamental to our survival and our steadfast commitment to returning to sustainable profitability. We're grateful to them all, including our pilots who play a pivotal role in the success of our operation."

Balpa said its members "feel very strongly" about pilot fatigue and wellbeing. The union said it prefers to address matters through "negotiation and industrial compromise and will only countenance industrial action as a last resort". It added: "We remain ready to commence negotiations to find an acceptable way forward and urge Virgin Atlantic to listen to its staff and put forward an acceptable offer that our members could support."

[rog747]

I could never fathom it became regularly acceptable to roster Crews both Flight Deck and Cabin, to operate London to say Los Angeles, Joburg or Cape Town and reckon it was quite OK to assume a Crew was 'rested' enough after just one night Hotac at the Destination, then to operate the flight back the next day to London overnight.

It once was at least 2-3 days Rest at Destination on flights of that length, now 24 hours or less, seems the norm...

[STBYRUD]

Nowadays regulations even encourage short layovers, because on longer layovers the crew is considered acclimatized to the local time zone and thus requires an extra local night rest when back at homebase 🥴

[The Ancient Geek]

Nowadays regulations even encourage short layovers, because on longer layovers the crew is considered acclimatized to the local time zone and thus requires an extra local night rest when back at homebase 🥴

Yebbut time zone is not an issue for Joburg, Kaapstad etc.

[ETOPS]

I flew longhaul from 1997 to 2013. Tiredness was a constant - especially when flying and home life were added together.
Fatigue is far more dangerous in that you don't realise how badly you are performing - I think the effects of alcohol are very similar so VS
need to take their crews concerns seriously.
All airline crew are humans first and foremost and even if a computerised scheduling tool says it's legal safe to fly the results - over time - will lead to mistakes and thus potential accidents.

For passengers - take a look at your crew boarding at their home base. If they are showing signs of "tiredness" after being at home then that could be fatigue....

[RichardJones]

Corporate Greed. Pure and simple.
The old saying, if they think safety is expensive, try having an accident. Well it doesn't happen very often. Only need one.

[RichardJones]

No association with Virgin Atlantic whatsoever.

If there has ever been a thread on PPRuNe 'Armchair' experts felt compelled to contribute, this is not one of them.

This has far wider implications for MANY airlines worldwide. Let this thread be discussed by those who are directly affected and who have far superior knowledge of the topic which reaches beyond your keyboard.

And who made you a moderator??
If I strap my backside to an aircraft operated by a fatigued crew, it is my business.

[speed13ird]

what happens at VS when you submit a fatigue report?

[Ohfeck]

what happens at VS when you submit a fatigue report?

it gets filed, but most of us are too tired to fill them out.

[Magplug]

Most companies have a 'process' where fatigue reports are examined by an ambitious manager to determine if other circumstances might be blamed for the pilots fatigue. The pilot gets questioned about his home circumstances, does he/she have small kids, was you rest at home disturbed, was your rest in the crew hotel disturbed or maybe your bidding for back-to-back or other trip combinations is responsible for your fatigue? Companies have even been known to request room bills from crew hotels to determine what the pilot's alcohol consumption had been in an effort to reassign the blame. Then finally, there is always the question with the veiled threat..... If you are getting fatigued then may this job is not for you?

[RichardJones]

Fatigue can cause micro blackouts also. Not a lot of people are aware of this. I know this is true.This was never mentioned in any human performance training or manuals in my day
I would suggest, get hold of one of these accountants, invite he or she along for the whole trip. Make sure that they stay awake in the A/C. When back at base let them go back to their sums. That may give these people an idea how fatigue, will effect human performance and mental agility. I chose accountants for a purpose.

[Dannyboy39]

Corporate Greed. Pure and simple.
The old saying, if they think safety is expensive, try having an accident. Well it doesn't happen very often. Only need one.
When was the last time Virgin actually made a profit? Or over time, have they ever been cash positive?

[Uplinker]

If a company makes a profit, it pays tax on that profit. Clever accountants will mitigate tax liability, which is why airlines don't (apparently) make much profit, (when it suits them).

Good on the Virgin aircrews for considering this action. As has been debated on several other Pprune threads, Ts & Cs will never improve if we continue to accept things as they are. We need to take a stand.

Why should aircrews supplement the passenger's ticket prices or the CEOs pay packets by working poor Ts & Cs ?

A properly respected and motivated aircrew will improve company performance and profits far more than a disillusioned, exhausted aircrew, who have low quality of working life, and low quality home life.

[RichardJones]

If a company makes a profit, it pays tax on that profit. Clever accountants will mitigate tax liability, which is why airlines don't (apparently) make much profit, (when it suits them).

Good on the Virgin aircrews for considering this action. As has been debated on several other Pprune threads, Ts & Cs will never improve if we continue to accept things as they are. We need to take a stand.

Why should aircrews supplement the passenger's ticket prices or the CEOs pay packets by working poor Ts & Cs ?

A properly respected and motivated aircrew will improve company performance and profits far more than a disillusioned, exhausted aircrew, who have low quality of working life, and low quality home life.

Well said. Direct action will be the only language they will understand.

[zero/zero]

When was the last time Virgin actually made a profit? Or over time, have they ever been cash positive?

I know, right? It's been going for nearly 40 years without making any money.

Makes you wonder why they bother.

[RARA9]

I know, right? It's been going for nearly 40 years without making any money.

Makes you wonder why they bother.


sounds like good old Monarch …..

[rog747]

When I looked after Virgin 747 Classic crews at Gatwick 1988-1994 (VS had 8 x 747's at that time) the Rosters and crew layovers were not a source of complaint back then AFAIR.
It was in the later years after I had gone that my Crew friends bitterly complained that the rosters had became very 'tight' and that just one night at Destination and B2B's became the norm...


This is an older story from a MAS Malaysian Airlines System Boeing 747-400 'local' pilot (First Officer) from some years ago (told from around the early 2000's?)
which is an interesting read. >>>

Hi there.
I have worked at MAS (Malaysian Airlines) for the past 11 years. I am Malay and was selected for the MAS Cadet Pilot AB-INITIO Program in 1994. A group of us cadets then completed all of our initial Pilot Licences and Flight Training at BAE Systems Flight Training in Adelaide, Australia over a 10 month period.
We then came back to Kuala Lumpur KL and underwent further training inhouse with Malaysian Airlines. A few months later, I was lucky to be place on and then trained on the Boeing B737-300/400.
These Classic B737s were excellent airplanes to fly.
Our routes on the B737 basically linked KL with all of the major cities and islands within 3 hours flying time throughout Southeast Asia.
Two years later my seniority allowed me to move up to the Airbus A330-300 widebody, which was a brand new airplane in our fleet, with state of the art FBW technologically. The A330 also has a lot of range and allowed me to fly as far as Australia, the Middle East, India, and Japan.

Three and a half good years flying the Airbus A330, and again my seniority gains allowed me to move up and this time I accepted a spot on the Queen of the Fleet and the Queen of the Skies - the Boeing B747-400 Widebody!
What an awesome airplane, and also an incredible view taxiing from way up in our office/cockpit.
I then was flying the B747 all over the world for many years.
The range on this aircraft is staggering, and because of this long range, the cockpit is equipped with a Bunk Sleeping cabin with 2 beds and a door for privacy. We use these beds for proper sleeps and rest on our flights over 8 hours - which happens to be most of them.
Our destinations on the B744 are excellent. My favourite places to fly into and out of are London Heathrow and LAX (Los Angeles). My favorite destinations to visit and spend a 2 day layover are Buenos Aires (Argentina), Cape Town (South Africa), Los Angeles (USA), and Vancouver (Canada).

Our rosters on the B747 are quite good - mostly due to the long flying times between KL and our destinations. Because the flights are mostly over 12 hours, we get very good layover times and nice hotels once we reach the destination - usually 48 hours or longer in the hotel. 48 hours is a perfect amount of time for some rest and some exploring. When we return home to KL, the flight again is usually over 10 or 12 hours and we will receive at least 2-3 days off at home to recover and get ready for our next journey.
So all in all the rostering system at MAS is good and healthy.

Because of the long range of the B744, most of our flights involve two sets of crews - meaning 2 Captains and 2 First Officers. One crew usually operates the first half of the flight, and the second the latter part of the flight.
Becoming a MAS Pilot, and a B747 Pilot, was a dream come true for me. I highly recommended the MAS Cadet Pilot Program for any Malay or Malaysian citizens interested in aviation. I also recommend MAS as a great place to work and fly for experienced pilots - both Malaysian and expats.
Over the last year or so, many of our experienced First Officers, and some Captains, have opted to leave and take on positions at the growing Middle Eastern airlines like Etihad, Qatar, and Emirates. For that reason, MAS now has a bit of a shortage of experienced pilots and will most likely be recruiting expats to fill the void over the next few years.
I hope you found this helpful.

[Bluebaron]

I regularly operate LON to Mexico, Costa Rica etc with just two pilots. Flight time is often 10-12 hours. Add report time and you can see it’s a long day out. These trips are 24 hours.
we do however get 3 local nights off after them.
regularly fall asleep on the fight home. File a report every time and nothing changes been doing it since EASA regs came in 10 (?) years ago.

[Fly3]

I witnessed many times Virgin crews who had operated from London in LAX arriving in the hotel in Torrance late afternoon. I then saw them checking out again just over 24 hours later to operate the return leg and they never looked rested. IIRC didn't the regulations recommend avoiding rests periods between 18 and 30 hours?

[Youmightsaythat]

When the CAA's Rob Bishton feels the need to make a statement about how Virgin Airlines comply with all fatigue and FDP regulation you know it's getting desperate. This is the same individual when presented with absolute documented proof of illegal rostering and fatigue issues at a UK airline stated "

“Final Correspondence on FTL matters” As I committed to you when you called me 2 weeks ago, 2 people have reviewed the information pertaining to your query and their determination was referred to me. I concurred with them in that there is nothing more for the CAA to investigate. Furthermore, as I reiterated to you when we spoke, discussions between the CAA and the Post Holders within an AOC are treated confidentially and you should not conclude that the CAA has not substantiated all the facts surrounding the flights you are referring to in your correspondence.

Yours sincerely,

Rob Bishton
Head of Flight Ops | UK CAA

‘NOTHING MORE FOR THE CAA TO INVESTIGATE – AND WHO DID THE ‘INVESTIGATION’?’

Bishton states that there was nothing more for the CAA to investigate. So who did the investigation using the evidence referred to in Book one of ‘Pulling Wings From Butterflies”? The CAA investigation officer was Kathryn Jones who, previously had stated to the BBC, “We have no evidence of significant safety concerns with regard to crew and fatigue”, adding; “The evidence the CAA has is that the fatigue of crew is not a significant safety concern.” Jones is the ‘Safety Improvement manager’ who claims on her LinkedIn profile her “specialist area of knowledge is fatigue management, including flight time limitations”. (yep, you are ahead of me, she has never flown commercially and is not a doctor.)

The other senior CAA officer involved was Glenn Bradley who suggested I should just ‘Get Over’ this breach of legislation that a judge had stated would result in an “obvious increased risk to those flying if “not complied with”

As George Orwell in 1984 wrote “The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”

The full details can be found at https://pullingwingsfrombutterflies.com/arr-bishto

[Magplug]

The CAA's priority is the continued prosperity of UK airlines. They have no interest in acting to ensure safe operations. So unless the Daily Mail presents them with a smoking gun (or a smoking hole) it's business as usual at the CAA.

Around 10 years ago the UK had a mature sensible FTL scheme. The regulations were formed over many years as a result of accidents, incidents and deaths where we promised the bereaved that we would learn from our past mistakes. Then one day we threw that ruleset in the bin in favour of a Pan-European system that bore no resemblance to either of the 'Gold Standards' of the UK or Germany.... All in the name of EU political expediency.

[Oasis]

If no one will look out for you, you have to look out for yourself.

[Uplinker]

<span style="color:#222222;">Around 10 years ago the UK had a mature sensible FTL scheme. The regulations were formed over many years as a result of accidents, incidents and deaths where we promised the bereaved that we would learn from our past mistakes. Then one day we threw that ruleset in the bin in favour of a Pan-European system that bore no resemblance to either of the 'Gold Standards' of the UK or Germany.... All in the name of EU political expediency.

Absolutely. The new FTLs were waved in or nodded through by our own airlines, unions and the CAA. I never understood why there was not a general walk-out by UK crews over that.

I think that big money has nobbled the CAA, BALPA and all the airline Company Councils.

"Safety is our biggest concern"......Yeah, right.

.

[Magplug]

Unfortunately when the British public see headlines like "Virgin pilots to strike over fatigue concerns" they start to switch off. It is the same as the rail unions striking over 'safety concerns'.... They don't really give a toss about safety as they can stop the train whenever a safety need arises. They are striking about members losing their jobs as the world changes. We no longer need train guards when tickets are checked at the barriers and no longer need ticket offices when 90%+ are purchased online. If an emergency arises onboard the train will continue to the next station where it can be dealt with accordingly. The British public recognise completely that the world is changing and unions are resisting that change. Unions need to recognise that banging the 'Safety' drum in the media in order to scare and influence public opinion is a strategy that has long since outlived it's usefulness.

Unfortunately airliners cannot just pull-over when the pilots can no longer stay awake.

I do recall a while ago that Virgin pilots were negotiating lifestyle improvements with their employer. The goal was to reduce time away from home by reducing slip-time downroute. When that means 5 trips a month instead of 4 it rather defeats the benefit to lifestyle. Whatever you give to an employer.... They will take it... And still come back for more. An ambitious manager who is only going to be in post for 2 years has no care for the consequences of his actions. Short term gains that trigger his bonus are his only concern.

[Twiglet1]

I regularly operate LON to Mexico, Costa Rica etc with just two pilots. Flight time is often 10-12 hours. Add report time and you can see it’s a long day out. These trips are 24 hours.
we do however get 3 local nights off after them.
regularly fall asleep on the fight home. File a report every time and nothing changes been doing it since EASA regs came in 10 (?) years ago.
Just for some fairness airlines operated to Mexico etc with 24hr rest under CAP371 also so its NNUTS Nothing New Under The Sun

[Twiglet1]

I witnessed many times Virgin crews who had operated from London in LAX arriving in the hotel in Torrance late afternoon. I then saw them checking out again just over 24 hours later to operate the return leg and they never looked rested. IIRC didn't the regulations recommend avoiding rests periods between 18 and 30 hours?

The history of 18-30hr rest periods is when UK Charter airlines operated 2 crew to Orlando on B767 etc many moons ago so day / night rotation. Things have moved on since then. 24hrs in East Coast is manageable - 24hrs in West Coast is beyond me but could be example mitigated by having extra crew / in-flight relief and time off on return to base.

[Twiglet1]

The CAA's priority is the continued prosperity of UK airlines. They have no interest in acting to ensure safe operations. So unless the Daily Mail presents them with a smoking gun (or a smoking hole) it's business as usual at the CAA.

Around 10 years ago the UK had a mature sensible FTL scheme. The regulations were formed over many years as a result of accidents, incidents and deaths where we promised the bereaved that we would learn from our past mistakes. Then one day we threw that ruleset in the bin in favour of a Pan-European system that bore no resemblance to either of the 'Gold Standards' of the UK or Germany.... All in the name of EU political expediency.

Slight typo there 'The CAA's priority is the continued existence of UK Airlines' ensuring safe operations. UK Airlines wanted a level playing field with their Euro counterparts so that they could for example depart to Larnaca at 0700 rather than waiting until 0900 when the FTL allowed it. Factorisation of FDP over 7hrs sector length was something that came when FE's went. Most mature airlines (that hadn't gone bust) introduced their own limits with Union support when EASA came along. Biggest advantage of EASA FTL compared to CAP371?- when crews sold 2 days off then under CAP it was likely they would get 2 days off to keep the roster legal. Under EASA its easier to sell days off because of the 168 rule and not always get 2 extra days off!
The FTL hasn't changed much only the way the Airlines work crews to the max.....

[Magplug]

Twiglet1 I don't get your argument here.... Are you saying FTLs were better under the old CAP371 or better under EASA?

Before we all switched to EASA some EU countries had no FTL rules at all..... I suppose it is the inevitable consequence of having legislation drafted by a committee of 27 nations that agreement could not be reached on adopting one of the existing 'Gold Standards'. Instead we arrive at the average of nought and best!

I know British shorthaul rules suffered as a consequence of EASA with more conservative FDPs on earlier departures. OTOH a certain British LH operator ran rosters for one fleet with the new ruleset a few months before introduction and got a nasty shock. They quickly had to go out and recruit some more pilots.

[Los Endos]

It’s swings and roundabouts when comparing CAP371 with EASA FTL’s. Losses and gains. You can still call fatigued prior to duty if you so feel. Additionally the Captain can reduce the duty period time below the tabulated standard and equally increase rest as he sees fit. It sure doesn’t resolve all problems of company excess but it helps when they continuously take the piss.

[Twiglet1]

Magplug

EASA FTL is much better imho. The only protection missing from EASA FTL is days off but the few UK AOC that are now left have either agreements which are over and above or the working time directive. And if crews want to sell days off its much more easier. Its how airlines schedule their crews which is more of an issue - 24hrs in LAX gets a lot of sympathy from me.

[Max Angle]

24hrs in East Coast is manageable
It is, but not six times a month.

[NoelEvans]

...

Why should aircrews supplement the passenger's ticket prices or the CEOs pay packets by working poor Ts & Cs ?

...

Probably the best comment on here...

[NoelEvans]

...

Before we all switched to EASA some EU countries had no FTL rules at all..... I suppose it is the inevitable consequence of having legislation drafted by a committee of 27 nations that agreement could not be reached on adopting one of the existing 'Gold Standards'. Instead we arrive at the average of nought and best!

...

Correct!

[BIGBAD]

Why should aircrews supplement the passenger's ticket prices or the CEOs pay packets by working poor Ts & Cs ?

The CEO works hard for his remuneration, if it wasn’t for his skill and hard work VAA would have gone belly up over COVID. Worth every penny.

[Bluebaron]

Just for some fairness airlines operated to Mexico etc with 24hr rest under CAP371 also so its NNUTS Nothing New Under The Sun

Yes agreed but that was 3 pilots not 2.

[SteveHobson]

I have followed many threads on PPRuNe regarding the friction between flight crew and airline management.
Why is there this seeming lack of trust ? Pilots referring to managers as 'bean counters' and only looking at short term benefits. The pilots stating that fatigue is becoming a major safety issue, really ?
A recent thread compared plane and train unions citing 'safety issues' when really it had nothing to do with safety but just a bargaining chip to try and get the publics sympathy for what is really just wage and benefits negotiation.

I am a retired Master Mariner who served on British flag Very Large Crude Carriers (VLCC's), and then became an ocean freight logistics manager for a fleet of over deep sea 400 vessels.
In all my time at sea we never once used the 'safety' gimmick to try and obtain better conditions.
In fact in all my time at sea we officers never undertook industrial action. Similarly, there were no industrial disputes on our time chartered fleet.

Are airline pilots a superior breed that need to be mollycoddled, and always to be at the throats of their airlines?
Or are the airlines really that bad to work for?
What happened to mutual trust and appreciation ?

I don't know,! Can someone help me understand.?

Swiss Steve

[T28B]

Steve: before a few more aviation professionals respond in greater detail, I'll point out to you two general points:
1. Safety isn't a gimmick.
2. One of the insidious aspects of fatigue is that it slowly erodes your perception, and your ability to respond to cues.
At the end of a long flight, or a day of multiple sectors flown, the phase of flight that you are in (approach and landing) is where the need to be at your best.
If your "edge" has been dulled from fatigue (there have been studies a plenty over the years on that single topic) the risks in that critical phase increases.

Beyond that: the cargo in the aluminum tube behind you is people. It is not Game Boys, automobiles, wheat, coal, or other stuff as it is tends to be in a ship. (Cruise lines excepted).

[RARA9]

Steve: before a few more aviation professionals respond in greater detail, I'll point out to you two general points:
1. Safety isn't a gimmick.
2. One of the insidious aspects of fatigue is that it slowly erodes your perception, and your ability to respond to cues.
At the end of a long flight, or a day of multiple sectors flown, the phase of flight that you are in (approach and landing) is where the need to be at your best.
If your "edge" has been dulled from fatigue (there have been studies a plenty over the years on that single topic) the risks in that critical phase increases.

Beyond that: the cargo in the aluminum tube behind you is people. It is not Game Boys, automobiles, wheat, coal, or other stuff as it is tends to be in a ship. (Cruise lines excepted).

also may I add you can’t just stop an aircraft

[hunterboy]

I would also suggest that the fatigue experienced on a 2 or 3 week sailing is a bit different from doing 4-6 transatlantic flights with 2 pilots and no rest , apart from closing your eyes bolt upright in the pilots seat for 45 mins at a time.

[70 Mustang]

But last time I checked, most aircraft move a lot faster than most boats. And there is the three dimensional aspect to be considered. Not to mention the hours in an 7500-8000 foot cabin pressure and the dry air.

If i properly understand boats, they can have an engine failure and they still will float quite readily. An aircraft with an engine failure has significant adverse yaw that i doubt most boats can match.

Just the fact that the captain of a boat can fully stand up and walk around a bit gives him a large advantage over most flight crew situations.

both hands up, I'd prefer most any aircraft over most any boat for crossing the Atlantic or Pacific.



I have followed many threads on PPRuNe regarding the friction between flight crew and airline management.
Why is there this seeming lack of trust ? Pilots referring to managers as 'bean counters' and only looking at short term benefits. The pilots stating that fatigue is becoming a major safety issue, really ?
A recent thread compared plane and train unions citing 'safety issues' when really it had nothing to do with safety but just a bargaining chip to try and get the publics sympathy for what is really just wage and benefits negotiation.

I am a retired Master Mariner who served on British flag Very Large Crude Carriers (VLCC's), and then became an ocean freight logistics manager for a fleet of over deep sea 400 vessels.
In all my time at sea we never once used the 'safety' gimmick to try and obtain better conditions.
In fact in all my time at sea we officers never undertook industrial action. Similarly, there were no industrial disputes on our time chartered fleet.

Are airline pilots a superior breed that need to be mollycoddled, and always to be at the throats of their airlines?
Or are the airlines really that bad to work for?
What happened to mutual trust and appreciation ?

I don't know,! Can someone help me understand.?

Swiss Steve

[SteveHobson]

T28B, RARA9, HUNTERBOY, 70 MUSTANG

Thank you for your replies and the valid comments that you make which are appreciated.

However, the issue that I raised was the lack of trust between pilots and managements,
and your comments don't really address that aspect. Aren't many airline managers ex pilots?
Do they change their spots when they go into management!!
And how can mutual trust be earned ? Serious question.
I'm one of those guys sitting the back of the aluminium tube, trusting that the pilots up front
are not stressed. Wasn't the stress of the Captain of Trident 'Papa India' a contributory factor
of the deep stall near Staines , with two inexperienced co-pilots?

I also didn't say safety was a gimmick.
I meant that using safety as a means of achieving contractual bargaining rights could be considered a gimmick.

Being responsible for a vessel's safe navigation is not always easy and plane sailing (.... pun intended !)
Many stressful hours are spent on the bridge when navigating in restricted waters without the help of
a sea pilot. e.g Straits of Malacca, Straits of Singapore, English Channel ( .. cross channel ferries putting an
additional stress as they cross the shipping lanes ) ... and many other restricted waters.

Swiss Steve

[70 Mustang]

Fatigue in plain English.

How can you "trust" management who do not experience fatigue like flight crew do? Even if a pilot, most management pilots I've encountered hand pick their once in 90 days to stay current flight. It's human nature to "forget" fatique sitting in the office, with only the risk of falling out of the chair if overcome with fatigue.

You can only trust yourself on the day, whether you're fit to fly. You can also trust that if you stand your ground and refuse a duty due to fatigue or make a mistake in flight due to fatigue, you will soon discover how much you can trust management.

[King Lear]

Scientists know very little about fatigue since desynchrony is a normalisation of deviance only made possible by the advent of longrange aircraft about 65 years ago and there is no commercial interest in finding out that fatigue is a threat to flight safety that needs to be professionally managed by objective means such as checking the individual biomarkets of every crew.

Engineers trend monitor parameters ”vital signs” of every engine and even in flight, whereas pilots may have slept poorly, may suffer from an undetected infection or the metabolic syndrome at check inn without any concern from anybody that the lack of homeostasis may cause pilot errors during the flight.

An Apple Watch could already detect low HRV, high resting pulse, poor sleep patterns, low blood oxygenation and a slower reaction time and in future higher blood pressure to more objectively vet the fatigue of a crew as compared to filling in a fatigue ASR.

Who is using the wearable development to at least launch studies into fatigue?

Crew health is hence still a black hole in flight safety “management”.

There is simply nobody in the CAA, the unions and amongst crew that has the slightest idea about how to mitigate fatigue to an Acceptable Level of Safety Performance, an ALoSP at the moment and few that would attribute ATC and pilot errors to fatigue..

[beardy]

However, the issue that I raised was the lack of trust between pilots and managements,and your comments don't really address that aspect. Aren't many airline managers ex pilots?Do they change their spots when they go into management!!And how can mutual trust be earned ? Serious question.

Try reading "Pulling Wings from Butterflies"

​​​​​​​Yes, most of the managers who were pilots that I worked under did change their spots. They became very goal orientated and the goal was to maximise profits by cutting costs. The concept of yield management et al were left to salesmen (most of whom started life as barrow boys)

[Lonewolf_50]

T28B, RARA9, HUNTERBOY, 70 MUSTANG

Thank you for your replies and the valid comments that you make which are appreciated.

However, the issue that I raised was the lack of trust between pilots and managements,
and your comments don't really address that aspect. Aren't many airline managers ex pilots?
Do they change their spots when they go into management!!
And how can mutual trust be earned ? Serious question.
I'm one of those guys sitting the back of the aluminium tube, trusting that the pilots up front
are not stressed. Wasn't the stress of the Captain of Trident 'Papa India' a contributory factor
of the deep stall near Staines , with two inexperienced co-pilots?

I also didn't say safety was a gimmick.
I meant that using safety as a means of achieving contractual bargaining rights could be considered a gimmick.

Being responsible for a vessel's safe navigation is not always easy and plane sailing (.... pun intended !)
Many stressful hours are spent on the bridge when navigating in restricted waters without the help of
a sea pilot. e.g Straits of Malacca, Straits of Singapore, English Channel ( .. cross channel ferries putting an
additional stress as they cross the shipping lanes ) ... and many other restricted waters.

Swiss Steve Steve, it's the death of a thousand cuts.
Let us offer an illustrative example (school book) of how management boils the frog:

Day One, the roster is 230 pilots and FAs for this monthly flight tasking of X. Crew rest and such are adhered to.
Day One Thousand someone wants to save some money, now 210 pilots and FAs are the manning level for the same work load
Day Two Thousand: someone wants to save money, now 190 pilots and FAs are the the manning level for the same work load.
"How little can we get away with paying for personnel?"

Does that answer your question on the lack of trust?
It is this kind of stuff (there are other bits, but this one is easy to illustrate) that unions call out as abusive.

Now for your homework:
Calgon Flight 3407 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407)

[zero/zero]

Can’t believe this actually needs explaining… but a ship moving at 14kts covers ONE timezone in 74hrs at the equator (1035 miles). In 74hrs a LH airline pilot has been 7 timezones East, rested for 24hrs, flown 7 timezones west and is now 26hrs into 72hrs of rest at home before flying 8hrs West. Until you’ve experienced that 5 times in a month then your opinion on the subject adds little value.

It could be a gimmick for Virgin pilots to be saying that they’re fatigued so need a 35% payrise to make it safer, but in this case everything that’s being asked for is about getting more sleep - either on the aircraft, downroute or at home. Things you might be grateful the pilots have had when you’re in the back of the aluminium/composite tube :ok:

[NoelEvans]

The CEO works hard for his remuneration, if it wasn’t for his skill and hard work VAA would have gone belly up over COVID. Worth every penny.

Correction:

If it wasn’t for the skill and hard work of their pilots, XXX* would have gone belly up ages ago. Worth every penny.

* Fill in the name of any airline, but for consistency with this Thread, start with VAA.

[NoelEvans]

Try reading "Pulling Wings from Butterflies"

Yes, most of the managers who were pilots that I worked under did change their spots. They became very goal orientated and the goal was to maximise profits by cutting costs. The concept of yield management et al were left to salesmen (most of whom started life as barrow boys)

Spot on!

(For this topic, that is a book worth reading.)
​​​​​​​

[HOVIS]

Scientists know very little about fatigue since desynchrony is a normalisation of deviance only made possible by the advent of longrange aircraft about 65 years ago and there is no commercial interest in finding out that fatigue is a threat to flight safety that needs to be professionally managed by objective means such as checking the individual biomarkets of every crew.

Engineers trend monitor parameters ”vital signs” of every engine and even in flight, whereas pilots may have slept poorly, may suffer from an undetected infection or the metabolic syndrome at check inn without any concern from anybody that the lack of homeostasis may cause pilot errors during the flight.

An Apple Watch could already detect low HRV, high resting pulse, poor sleep patterns, low blood oxygenation and a slower reaction time and in future higher blood pressure to more objectively vet the fatigue of a crew as compared to filling in a fatigue ASR.

Who is using the wearable development to at least launch studies into fatigue?

Crew health is hence still a black hole in flight safety “management”.

There is simply nobody in the CAA, the unions and amongst crew that has the slightest idea about how to mitigate fatigue to an Acceptable Level of Safety Performance, an ALoSP at the moment and few that would attribute ATC and pilot errors to fatigue..
I'm just going to throw my tuppence in here as the above statement is utter garbage. Fatigue is a well known and well studied subject. It is drilled into us engineers all the time. I have personally refused to work many times because I felt I could not concentrate. Sometimes you just have to grow a pair!

[SteveHobson]

Thanks Beardy,
I have just ordered 'Pulling Wings from Butterflies'.
Thanks for the 'heads up' on this and I'm looking forward to reading it and
increasing my understanding of the issues.
Swiss Steve

[Uplinker]

I have followed many threads on PPRuNe regarding the friction between flight crew and airline management.
Why is there this seeming lack of trust ? Pilots referring to managers as 'bean counters' and only looking at short term benefits. The pilots stating that fatigue is becoming a major safety issue, really ?
A recent thread compared plane and train unions citing 'safety issues' when really it had nothing to do with safety but just a bargaining chip to try and get the publics sympathy for what is really just wage and benefits negotiation.

I am a retired Master Mariner who served on British flag Very Large Crude Carriers (VLCC's), and then became an ocean freight logistics manager for a fleet of over deep sea 400 vessels.
In all my time at sea we never once used the 'safety' gimmick to try and obtain better conditions.
In fact in all my time at sea we officers never undertook industrial action. Similarly, there were no industrial disputes on our time chartered fleet.

Are airline pilots a superior breed that need to be mollycoddled, and always to be at the throats of their airlines?
Or are the airlines really that bad to work for?
What happened to mutual trust and appreciation ?

I don't know,! Can someone help me understand.?

Swiss Steve

T28B, RARA9, HUNTERBOY, 70 MUSTANG

Thank you for your replies and the valid comments that you make which are appreciated.

However, the issue that I raised was the lack of trust between pilots and managements,
and your comments don't really address that aspect. Aren't many airline managers ex pilots?
Do they change their spots when they go into management!!
And how can mutual trust be earned ? Serious question.
I'm one of those guys sitting the back of the aluminium tube, trusting that the pilots up front
are not stressed. Wasn't the stress of the Captain of Trident 'Papa India' a contributory factor
of the deep stall near Staines , with two inexperienced co-pilots?

I also didn't say safety was a gimmick.
I meant that using safety as a means of achieving contractual bargaining rights could be considered a gimmick.

Being responsible for a vessel's safe navigation is not always easy and plane sailing (.... pun intended !)
Many stressful hours are spent on the bridge when navigating in restricted waters without the help of
a sea pilot. e.g Straits of Malacca, Straits of Singapore, English Channel ( .. cross channel ferries putting an
additional stress as they cross the shipping lanes ) ... and many other restricted waters.

Swiss Steve

Hi Steve

Ships move at what, 20kts max? The slowest an airliner flies is about 140kts, the fastest, up to about 450kts true airspeed. An aircraft can roll inverted in a few seconds if grossly mishandled following an engine failure. Pilots need to be absolutely on top of their game - ready to react correctly at any time of the duty and any time of the day or night.

When I toured a Brittany ferry with my young son, there were four people in the engine room and four people on the bridge, (the Captain was off duty; asleep in his bunk for that crossing).

On almost all flights there are only 2 pilots in the cockpit, occasionally 3. No flight engineers.

If a ship breaks down or loses an engine, it will just drift. This can have its dangers but it will not sink or overturn.

If an aircraft suffers sudden decompression, or loses an engine at 40,000 feet over the ocean it is a :mad: big deal. Unless the aircraft is handled just right, there could be extremely serious consequences. Meanwhile your ship is drifting but still floating. The Captain has been woken up and the engineering team are working to replace the broken engine air valve or fuel valve etc.

Back at 40,000 feet, or actually 30,000 feet now, since an aircraft cannot stay at altitude on one engine, or following a decompression; the two pilots who have been up for 7 hours already, after a stop over of disturbed sleep in the hotel where the cleaners were vacuuming the corridor outside their rooms during the day , and other hotel guests were slamming their doors and talking loudly in the corridor when the pilots and aircrew tried to sleep in readiness for their return duty.

The pilots need to select an alternate airfield to fly towards, the only one available with allowable weather having quite a challenging visual circling approach, surrounded by high ground, which is tricky to do properly even when fully rested and in a simulator in daylight conditions. (they cannot continue to their planned destination on one engine).

Etc, etc. I hope you get the point. Do you see now why pilots get genuinely upset when their own management - some of whom used to be pilots - reduce their Ts & Cs even more and increase their fatigue? And for what reason? To subsidise the passenger's ticket prices by not employing enough crew to allow crews to get sufficient rest and time off. Do you understand why we complain? It most definitely IS all about safety.

[SteveHobson]

Thanks UPlinker,

You make some very valid points.
Much appreciated.
Swiss Steve

[HidekiTojo]

Unlinked knows the square route of fa about the maritime world. A ship can sink in seconds when mismanaged. Becoming the captain of a large vessel is way way more difficult and a longer process than joining Ryanair and being a captain within 4 years.

[SteveHobson]

Hideki, my original post was not to start a 'war' between the aviation and maritime sectors. Rather, it was a genuine desire to understand the seemingly endless disputes between pilots and their airline managers. Granted some correspondents have to tried to enlarge the debate as to whom has the most stressful jobs. That has not been useful.

Your comments are thus of little value to an honest debate.

Swiss Steve

[Balvenie]

Back on topic


This strike issue is nothing to do with pay. If the union and management can resolve this, it may avert a strike now however when it comes to pay talks unless there is a significant change in remuneration I suspect a strike maybe back on the cards !

VAA is looking at significant recruitment of pilots and when you look at what’s on offer there in terms of lifestyle ie trip, 2 days off, repeat x6 a month , I wonder who they’ll get volunteering for that fatiguing a lifestyle.

[Gordomac]

Bit wide there. Depends what you mean by "trip". One lasting four days followed by two off times six gets "no compute" in my little head when trying to fit into a month.

Very tough balance call for Management who have hands on the till and us lot with hands on the tiller.

I had the rare pleasure of working for a company that got it right. Top view was that there was no need for Unions if Management was right. It worked. Some schedules were looked at really hard and binned when fatigue issue became obvious to the planners. Some trips were planned with generous layovers which impacted profit margins but it all seemed to work. For a while.

Try, after min rest in LAX with inability to actually rest, for any number of reasons and advise the Company that you are unfit to operate.

It takes top-class management to recognise, deal with it and and research ways to avoid. REsults are probably far too expensive and you have this wretched impasse.

[NoelEvans]

... Do you see now why pilots get genuinely upset when their own management - some of whom used to be pilots - reduce their Ts & Cs even more and increase their fatigue? And for what reason? To subsidise the passenger's ticket prices by not employing enough crew to allow crews to get sufficient rest and time off. Do you understand why we complain? It most definitely IS all about safety.
Spot on! (Bold added for emphasis.)

[NoelEvans]

...

It takes top-class management to recognise, deal with it and and research ways to avoid. REsults are probably far too expensive and you have this wretched impasse.
Back to that favourite old quote, "If you think that it's too expensive, try an accident." Especially, as this Thread is referring to, a fatigue related accident.

[hoistop]

The CAA's priority is the continued prosperity of UK airlines. They have no interest in acting to ensure safe operations. So unless the Daily Mail presents them with a smoking gun (or a smoking hole) it's business as usual at the CAA.

Around 10 years ago the UK had a mature sensible FTL scheme. The regulations were formed over many years as a result of accidents, incidents and deaths where we promised the bereaved that we would learn from our past mistakes. Then one day we threw that ruleset in the bin in favour of a Pan-European system that bore no resemblance to either of the 'Gold Standards' of the UK or Germany.... All in the name of EU political expediency.

From what I can say after dealing with EASA regulations for 19 years, I can assure you that many UK CAA solutions were implememnted in EASA rules - I cannot say for FTL, but definitely CAMO/airworthiness management was taken pretty much from UK model. So pointing a finger in EASA is futile here I think. I would say that the whole Western aviation world is moving away from sensible towards minimum of minimums, that comes out as a result of bargaining between industry management and unions. The fact is, that aviation accidents are very rare in EU now, and this is a trumpet card for CAA /EASA folks, claiming that aviation in EU is safe. But I am concerned that this is the result of legacy - when things were done sensibly and internal corrections and goodwill of many people, that are quietly resisting dubious practices, guidances, etc. and are still doing things right - as much as they can. My personal opinion is, that Germanwings crash/mass murder was a direct result of this policy - pilots with huge debt from training around their necks, trying to get a decent job, but are forced into "pay to fly", "self employment" and other schemes, that should be prohibited in the interest of flight safety. No wonder that one day one pilot (A. Lubitz) succumbed under this pressure and did what he did. I am afraid he is not the last and - be realistic - there is no way to prevent suicide/mass murder when a pilot decides to do so. This industry is playing huge djenga game - see, if I pull this out, the structure still stands - so I saved a bit more money and the manager who did it, expects a reward. (only the structure is a bit more wobbly, but this is hard to measure - prove) This is what Boeing was doing for years and then one day djenga tower collapsed. I have some personal experience with such practices even it was not in a commercial world.

[Magplug]

hoistop
I cannot say for FTL, but definitely CAMO/airworthiness management was taken pretty much from UK model. So pointing a finger in EASA is futile here I think.
Given that the thread is about Virgin pilots and fatigue your comment about EASA finger pointing over CAMO/airworthiness seems rather irrelevant?

SteveHobson

When I left the armed forces and joined the airlines I was flabbergasted at the vitriol that existed between airline managers and pilots. I quickly learnt the reasons for that animosity.

1. Airline managers are ambitious individuals chasing more superior positions. It very much supports their mindset to see subordinates they 'manage' as being inferior to them. Unfortunately most Captains (for their skill-set and licence) get paid more than these managers and that very much sticks in their throat.

2. In the big, bad world of competitive management everyone has KPIs.... Some target you have to reach by the end of the financial year in order to trigger your bonus. For many managers that can be as little as 0.5% increase in productivity. Every pilot has seen notices published that inform of changes to procedure or reduced manning levels in some area and thought.... 'Another disaster in prospect'! The author however does not care if Rome burns as long as he triggers that bonus, problems in other departments are not his concern. After all, he is only going to be here for a couple of years, he will do untold damage and move along elsewhere with another gold star to add to his CV. Just like the manager who joined EZ a few years ago and decided he could run the summer programme with fewer crews. The fallout cost EZ a fortune and a summer of chaos ensued.

3. Managers are constrained by company procedures and rules, in many cases their sphere of influence ends at the edge of their desk. Pilots OTOH work in a huge dynamic environment where thinking outside of the box is a part of daily life. Whilst the manager is scraping around trying to find another 0.5% productivity to make his bonus, the two guys at the sharp end have infinitely more latitude to make good decisions and serve the bottom line (or otherwise) than the airline manager can ever aspire to. The possible corporate liability that lies in the hands of pilots is mind-boggling.

4. Pilots don't have to wander down the corridor and get every decision the make OK'ed by their boss.

5. On the HR spreadsheet of salaries pilots stand out like a dog's hind leg. Consequently, every pay round sees the pilots as the aspirational target for 'more work/less pay'. The annual cycle is utterly predictable.

[SteveHobson]

As I understand it, many managers are ex pilots.

So what makes a pilot want to become a manager ?

The pay is worse and there is less decision making (your point 4)

Swiss Steve

[Magplug]

In British Airways pilot managers used to be referred to as 'Bidline Refugees'.

In those days seniority = lifestyle = money. If you did not have the seniority to write a reasonable roster then being full-time and junior sucked. OTOH being a junior pilot manager means you will pick yourself 1-3 trips a month, (usually departing on a Monday) and spend every weekend at home with the kids plus 17.5% uplift on current salary. What's not to like! To be fair that variety of managers were not very ambitious but resented being told to stay to 5pm every evening so the department looked like it was busy. Office life in a corporation!

[Uplinker]

Rather ironically in the context, some pilots cannot handle the intensive rosters and the lifestyle disruption of today's line flying, and one route away from that is to get into management, which gives them their evenings, weekends, bank holidays, and Christmases off, as well as not having to do early starts or late finishes. They need to fly to keep their licence and landings recency up, but they can arrange to fly pretty much when they want and can chose their routes.

So a nice short there-and-back on a Friday morning, then home early because it is 'POETS' day. Never seemed to see them on Larnacas or Sharm El Sheiks, oddly enough !

Of course, once in management, they can change Ts & Cs to make their spreadsheets look better, without appreciating what those changes actually do to people's lives, since they - the managers - don't have to fly full-time rosters on the line.

[Red41]

They will strike and it will be to get their old scheduling agreements restored. Still think VS is on a shaky nail and I’m surprised at the amount of pilots giving up more secure jobs to join them in this uncertain world. VS do not have a good track record for junior pilots in uncertain worlds where bumps in the road appear. Still, the hats are nice…….

[NoelEvans]

From what I can say after dealing with EASA regulations for 19 years, I can assure you that many UK CAA solutions were implememnted in EASA rules - I cannot say for FTL, ....
This is all about FTL.

So you don't have much useful to contribute.

The 'old' UK FTLs were more thought out, well developed over time and added to by very pertinent studies of actual pilot fatigue (both in short-haul, I took part in one, and long-haul). The EU FTLs were a political 'fudge'. (One of the 'fatigue models' used to 'enhance' the EU FTLs is based on fatigue studies on US railroad engineers!!)

[hunterboy]

I think the UK FTL’s were good for the UK. They may not have worked for, say Greece on a different time zone and less long haul and trans Atlantic flts. However, the one size fits all EASA regs may have improved the EU FTL’s’s on average, but it has dragged some countries FTL’s down to the average as well as raising some others. I realised we were doomed when I spoke to the EU’s raconteur for EASA (a Labour MEP) and basically got the cold shoulder and was told to my face that I didn’t know what I was talking about, as he had an ex BASSA rep on the payroll as his personal advisor and she told him all he needed to know about pilot and cabin crew fatigue.

[NoelEvans]

I think the UK FTL’s were good for the UK. They may not have worked for, say Greece on a different time zone and less long haul and trans Atlantic flts. However, the one size fits all EASA regs may have improved the EU FTL’s’s on average, but it has dragged some countries FTL’s down to the average as well as raising some others. I realised we were doomed when I spoke to the EU’s raconteur for EASA (a Labour MEP) and basically got the cold shoulder and was told to my face that I didn’t know what I was talking about, as he had an ex BASSA rep on the payroll as his personal advisor and she told him all he needed to know about pilot and cabin crew fatigue.
That "political fudge"!!

[Oasis]

Looking at 787 rosters, it looks like there's about one trip a week, avg 3 days off after. How does this compare with BA on the same fleet?
Does Ba fly less, more days off?

[Youmightsaythat]

In a recently aired documentary on Dutch TV, senior officers within EASA claim there is no issue with pilots fatigue due to not having any "evidence" of such an issue.
The documentary throws considerable doubt on that claim.

Would it have anything to do with a significant amount of EASA's funding being provided by the airlines they are tasked with 'Regulating'

An English version of the documentary can be found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVPATr58-w4

[Cots889]

Any updates on the planned pay and lifestyle talks that are/were due to take place?

[SECsmachine]

They are taking place.

[BRAKES HOT]

Rather ironically in the context, some pilots cannot handle the intensive rosters and the lifestyle disruption of today's line flying, and one route away from that is to get into management, which gives them their evenings, weekends, bank holidays, and Christmases off, as well as not having to do early starts or late finishes. They need to fly to keep their licence and landings recency up, but they can arrange to fly pretty much when they want and can chose their routes.

So a nice short there-and-back on a Friday morning, then home early because it is 'POETS' day. Never seemed to see them on Larnacas or Sharm El Sheiks, oddly enough !

Of course, once in management, they can change Ts & Cs to make their spreadsheets look better, without appreciating what those changes actually do to people's lives, since they - the managers - don't have to fly full-time rosters on the line.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. The airspace has never felt so busy, add in air traffic delays, security delays and the rest of it, it's easy to see the appeal for some people.

[NAT Zulu]

I'm reliably informed that the ex VACC chaiman, who was at the helm of pilot representation during the contentious 2020 redundancy consultations (and wholesale permanent change to all terms and conditions) has recently been appointed in a management role as Head of Flight Crew at the airline.

Captains made redundant. Seniority binned. Scheduling agreements binned permanently. All whilst consulting with a BALPA union Chairman - who now gets a management position.

[cessnapete]

I'm reliably informed that the ex VACC chaiman, who was at the helm of pilot representation during the contentious 2020 redundancy consultations (and wholesale permanent change to all terms and conditions) has recently been appointed in a management role as Head of Flight Crew at the airline.

Captains made redundant. Seniority binned. Scheduling agreements binned permanently. All whilst consulting with a BALPA union Chairman - who now gets a management position.

Apparently VS haemorrhaging pilots to BA. It’s probably as much lifestyle/fatigue than salary
ie VS operate with 2 crew and roster night stops to MIA, BA has 3 crew. with crew rest facility, (VS M.80 , BA M.84 shorter flight time.)
West Coast USA .VS roster a night stop, BA 48 hour Layover.
JNB/Cape Town VS night stop, BA 2 local night layover, and due to schedule timings, essentially a 5 day trip.
Constant 2 crew E Coast USA trips with 3 nights between is also very fatiguing, Most BA Long Range trips with extended crew, have a minimum 48 hr. layover.

[PAXboy]

I am SLF but have been doing so for 58 years and followed commercial aviation fairly closely. I have never worked for any airline related company. I have been SLF with VS since October 1986.

How much of the problem described in this thread happened after the take over by Delta? How big are their fingerprints on current day VS?

[xray one]

Cessnapete

not quite correct. JNB, CPT, LAX, SFO and LAS all 2 nights.

There is a 'brain drain'... how many is a matter of conjecture.

As for the new Head of Flight Crew, he will judged by his actions, he has only just taken up his post.

I'm fairly sure the Company are aware of the issues - how they solve them is also a matter of conjecture.

[Gordomac]

Paxboy, can't match your length of service. I only did 43 years of which 39 was at the pointy end. What one sees here is current SOP(Standard Operating Procedure) and has been during my entire aviation career. Unless fully connected in all the accepted areas, one goes only so far. Real, appropriate talent available in the airline industry does not get into the controlling top-management. Never has. Never will.The result is what you see at VS and, probably, all over civil aviation.

Even got to be a member of the Travel" Lodge" to get my "Frequent user"- New Year deals !

[PAXboy]

Sadly, most corporate entities go through the standard cycle of innovation to complacency. Then they get taken over by the accountants.

It does not matter what the line of business is - they all follow the cycle. Round and round.

[JG1]

How come some office worker, who works maximum 8 hr days (or there is trouble), was able to make the law that it's alright for flight crew to work an 18 hr day, as long as there is an opportunity for inflight "rest" and the crew is “augmented" and "acclimatised"?

Was he the head of the committee which spent 24 months designing an acclimatisation table that can't work out the acclimatisation 66% of the time and leaves the result at "unknown"?

Lets imagine he or she has to work to their own rules.
Let's be kind, and start them at normal time, 8am. Straight off the bat, they will be doing a 13 hr day. If they'd just come off holiday and were a bit groggy still to match "unknown" acclimatisation status, they'd be in for an easier 12 hr day.

​​​​​​Except if the boss called and said, I'm extending your day a bit by sending you Fred and Bob. With two extra blokes in your office you can all do 17hrs straight as long as there's a bunk for one of you to kip in whilst the other two work.
Make sure you leave the hoover on all the time for some ambience. Oh, and there's a bit of a flap on today so I expect you to use your discretion and stay a couple of hours longer, there's a good chap.

​When you're done, drag your bags down the road to a cheap hotel and make sure you're back here in 17hrs to do it all over again. After 168 hrs of this, you can take 36 hrs off. I know your other mates get 48hrs every 120 hrs but this is EASA, you know.

Seriously? How about standard labour law and 8 hour days?
​​I understand how things evolved in aviation, short flights at first didn't require rest, and as the aircraft became capable of longer flights, the crews had to be able to man them. But the moment the crew bunks were installed, there was the opportunity to go back to the 8 hr working day model that the labour law stipulates for every other worker. Work more than 8hrs, two crews. Period. No crew bunks, then after 8hrs land and change crews. Yes this is a bit simplistic and sure the system has to be tuned for shift work, but.... How in hell did it get to where we are today when it's legal for me to work in the aeroplane for 18 hrs and Mr EASA does 8 in his office?

[Gordomac]

JG1. Agreed, totally.

Those who write the rules should then give it a try themselves. Assumes pilots write the rules. Often, not the case.

Complicity is a factor too. Wasn't long ago (Coovid crisis) chaps were "in order to put food on the table" accepting situations where they Dead Headed into a field and immediately operated out (!). Several claimed, on Pprune too, that the "crew rest facilities" in modern times were excellent and even enjoyable. Nothing wrong with boarding straight into your bunk nest and going to sleep immediately and then, some 10 hours later jumping into the hot seat and operating 10 hours back.

I also found the notion of extending operating hours because of a "relief" pilot to never be fully understood, Particularly by the pilot rostered as the "relief Pilot".. I was given the trial ops in a pretty classy carrier of operating AMS-Somewhere on West African Coast-AMS. Both First Officer thought all three of us should just share the flying three ways, there and back. Oh bless..

My report on return was that it could be done but I would not recommend it. I asked the Fleet Manager who authorised the OP to try it himself. I was shown the door with a "Ghoodah Morgan !",

[Uplinker]

How come some office worker, who works maximum 8 hr days (or there is trouble), was able to make the law that it's alright for flight crew to work an 18 hr day............When you're done, drag your bags down the road to a cheap hotel and make sure you're back here in 17hrs to do it all over again. After 168 hrs of this, you can take 36 hrs off. I know your other mates get 48hrs every 120 hrs but this is EASA, you know.

Seriously?.... How in hell did it get to where we are today when it's legal for me to work in the aeroplane for 18 hrs and Mr EASA does 8 in his office?

+1, or in fact +100.

Big money is what happened: CEOs job is to continually cut operating costs, and crews are expensive because they have to be highly trained, highly proficient and highly skilled - you can't just take someone from the job centre and give them a day's induction course.

So if they can 'get away with' using one crew instead of two crews, they will.

This is why we need to stand up for ourselves. Unfortunately - certainly in the UK - the union and the company councils have clearly been nobbled. Strike action is very rarely taken and rarely even considered. EASA FTLs were just nodded in, and all our union does is talk about things. They never actually do anything. They just talk about fatigue, but never do anything about fatigue.

I mean; "controlled rest", i.e. taking a 20 minute nap sitting in your pilot seat, is a real thing !! That is a blatant admission that crews are fatigued - right there.

Can you imagine if a surgeon, in the middle of an operation; with the patient's chest wide open and tubes everywhere; said to his 'junior' doctor alongside him, "jeez, I am so tired, I cannot keep my eyes open any longer. I am going to take controlled rest", and he sits down with his eyes closed for 20 mins, while all the other doctors just stand around and wait; keeping an eye on the patient's pulse and oxygen levels etc. Utterly ludicrous.

[Twiglet1]

+1, or in fact +100.

Big money is what happened: CEOs job is to continually cut operating costs, and crews are expensive because they have to be highly trained, highly proficient and highly skilled - you can't just take someone from the job centre and give them a day's induction course.

So if they can 'get away with' using one crew instead of two crews, they will.

This is why we need to stand up for ourselves. Unfortunately - certainly in the UK - the union and the company councils have clearly been nobbled. Strike action is very rarely taken and rarely even considered. EASA FTLs were just nodded in, and all our union does is talk about things. They never actually do anything. They just talk about fatigue, but never do anything about fatigue.

I mean; "controlled rest", i.e. taking a 20 minute nap sitting in your pilot seat, is a real thing !! That is a blatant admission that crews are fatigued - right there.

Can you imagine if a surgeon, in the middle of an operation; with the patient's chest wide open and tubes everywhere; said to his 'junior' doctor alongside him, "jeez, I am so tired, I cannot keep my eyes open any longer. I am going to take controlled rest", and he sits down with his eyes closed for 20 mins, while all the other doctors just stand around and wait; keeping an eye on the patient's pulse and oxygen levels etc. Utterly ludicrous.

Uplinker I'm with you 100% and more but just a couple of clarifications.

EASA FTL - all the UK AOC ever wanted was a level playing field had they not switched to EASA FTL how many UK would be left?. Many of the UK AOC left in either Industrial agreements or FRM agreements when EASA FTL came in. You could argue the previous yearly block hour agreement VS had was a fatigue mitigation also.
One thing for sure where EASA FTL is completely different to CAP371 is that it's so much easier for crews to swap duties - under CAP371 particularly the (archaic) days off rules it was impossible to swap - now it seems to be the in thing. As you know when it comes to swaps or flying on days off for $$$ Fatigue goes out the window - Nb I'm only joking, sort of.

[Uplinker]

Yes. Sadly that is where so many pilots shot themselves in the foot. They cannot argue fatigue and lack of rest if: when Ops rings up and says they have a bit of a situation and would you be willing to fly tomorrow on your day off for £500 ? And they say yes I will do it.

We - (they) - really need to wok to rule to start with; no overtime etc., and if that doesn't make things easier then strike action must be considered - it is the only defence we have. Talking about it and fatigue monitoring etc. does not cut it.