Brit pilots working in the USA

[SixPin]

I’m hearing from a number of different sources that more and more experienced British Captains are now working for US airlines.

Apparently, the US Citizen and Immigration Service have now included pilots on the list of those professions that qualify for ‘Employment Visas’ and are fast tracking applications.

Does anyone know the name of any of the agencies involved in recruiting UK pilots?

[rudestuff]

You are misinformed. You might have been hearing about the National interest waiver for the EB2.

[bafanguy]

I’m hearing from a number of different sources that more and more experienced British Captains are now working for US airlines

Not disputing what you say but:

Do your sources have any documentation to support this ? They are certainly in the RHS if they're here in a Part 121 operation.

And do your sources have documented explanations for how these folks got the legal ability to live/work in the US ? Green Card lottery ? Married into a Green Card ? Documented National interest waiver for the EB2 ?

They'd be welcome but it'd be informative to see for sure how they got here. Inquiring minds want to know.

[hans brinker]

I’m hearing from a number of different sources that more and more experienced British Captains are now working for US airlines.

Apparently, the US Citizen and Immigration Service have now included pilots on the list of those professions that qualify for ‘Employment Visas’ and are fast tracking applications.

Does anyone know the name of any of the agencies involved in recruiting UK pilots?

Do you mean USCIS? If so:

Every airline in the US is seniority based. If you get hired you start at the bottom of the list regardless of your experience.

Unless you know something I don't, the only visum for foreign pilot's is for OZ E3. I have not seen a single pilot giving proof of getting a EB2 NIW.

proof....

[Chauderon]

All the other Brit pilots I know and I are here with green cards, or have since become citizens. I know of nobody on a special visa.

[rudestuff]

If there was a way to get sponsored by a US airline, believe me Pprune would be the first to know about it, and there's nothing...

[dixi188]

I flew to Denver last year with United and the cabin crew were all Brits and London based. I think the flight deck crew were brits too.

[bafanguy]

I flew to Denver last year with United and the cabin crew were all Brits and London based. I think the flight deck crew were brits too.

dixi,

Didn't know about the United London F/A base. The pilots could very well have been Brits but I find no mention of a London pilot base:
Domicile & RelocationUpon completion of training, graduates are assigned to one of the United domiciles - Boston, Chicago, Cleveland, Denver, Honolulu, Houston, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Newark, San Francisco, Washington DC, Frankfurt, Guam, Hong Kong, London, and Narita.


https://www.avjobs.com/careers-directory/united-airlines-flight-attendant-career-requirements.asp

[bafanguy]

If there was a way to get sponsored by a US airline, believe me Pprune would be the first to know about it...

rudestuff,

You got that right !! :)

[hans brinker]

I flew to Denver last year with United and the cabin crew were all Brits and London based. I think the flight deck crew were brits too.

Possible. But none of them got a green card based on being brits and working in aviation.

Lots of Brits in the US, likely some would bid for UK trips. UAL had 727 pilots based in London decades ago, and has had FA based there too. But I have not seen a single European get preferential treatment from US immigration based on aviation as occupation. I would know, came here myself the old fashioned way (lottery for a few years, followed by marriage).

[WHBM]

Didn't know about the United London F/A base. The pilots could very well have been Brits but I find no mention of a London pilot base:
The United London cabin crew base has its long history in the equivalent Pan Am base, taken over by United in 1991. I don't know if any onetime Pan Am staff remain there. They only fly London transatlantic flights and not domestic US ones.

[Loose rivets]

Has everyone taken the ATP exams?

[Climb150]

Has everyone taken the ATP exams?
There is only one ATP exam.

[Loose rivets]

Erm, okay. I suppose that's why it only took me an hour to complete it. Mid - late eighties. The allowed time was 6 hours.

I did spend 30 minuets writing a note explaining why the only question I later realised I must have got wrong, did not have a correct answer. According to a Braniff '72 instructor I overheard, "That's why nobody ever gets 100% on the ATP . . ." I've always wondered if that's what he meant. I wish I'd pushed into the conversation.

[Mustang_67]

All the other Brit pilots I know and I are here with green cards, or have since become citizens. I know of nobody on a special visa.

Did you switch licenses from CAA to FAA? If so what was the process of that and the job hunt like for you?

[Check Airman]

Boeing is sponsoring a visa for the 737 production test pilot positions at Renton. The technical pilot positions at Everett require a green card or citizenship, though. My husband is American and I am seriouslty considering making the jump to either Boeing or a Legacy carrier but coming from the 777-200 / 300ER I am not hopeful. Delta has gone Airbus, United is 50/50 on replacing the older 777s with A350-1000 and American is also leaning Airbus (except for the 300ERs)

Why do you think your 777 experience would work against you? You’ll be hired and trained on whatever fleet your seniority can hold. That’ll usually be a narrowbody. When you’re senior enough to hold a widebody, you can bid any one. Your previous experience will neither hurt nor help you once you’ve passed the interview.

[bafanguy]

Lady S,

If hired at any union-represented US carrier, you will join at the bottom of the list...period. Your previous experience will have gotten you interviewed and offered a job. From that point, you'd be a new hire and go to whatever base and/or airplane your seniority (or relative lack thereof) will get you through the bid process.

One's relative seniority within a new hire class is established by age in some places and the last four numbers of your Social Security number in others depending on the airline.

If the airline continues hiring, more new hire classes will get added below you.

That's how it works here. Good luck in your choice.

[bafanguy]

Thank you kindly for the additional input. Not much of a choice it seems. *sigh*

Lady S,

It's all about options. If you have the ability to work in the US, joining a legacy carrier...a lifetime position...is just an option.

Things here are done differently compared to EU. Not better or worse...just different. And apparently, it doesn't suit everyone. But that's okay.

Anecdotally, UAL new hires are getting B737 captain slots while in new hire training (sort of the same at Delta but not so drastic). This is unheard of. But it's because those pilots senior to them just don't want the position...for a variety of reasons. So to play out possibilities, as soon as those pilots senior to these new hire captains decide they now want those captain spots, the new hires will get pushed down perhaps into the RHS on some airplane on subsequent bid cycles.

Seniority is sacrosanct here.

Best of luck with your choices. Let us know what you decide.

[Check Airman]

Thank you kindly for the additional input. Not much of a choice it seems. *sigh*

You may not want to be on the 777. Your relative seniority on the 777 will be a lot worse than on a narrowbody (or 757/767 in the case of United).

What that means is better schedule control, AND quite likely more money than someone with similar seniority on a 777, if desired.

The work rules you’ll find at US carriers will enable you to exercise far more control over your income than you’re accustomed to. So you don’t have to be on a 777 to earn what a 777 pilot makes.

[hans brinker]

As a fellow EUr but now USr, I vastly prefer the american way. Yes, I will probably mean I will have to start at the bottom if I decide to switch companies (and after 10+ years I might). It does also mean that when I wil not have people come over above me and hurt my progress, This makes sure people are invested in making their own company better as opposed to trying to catch the bird in the air somewhere else. And the current T&C difference between the USA and the EEUU makes me believe the US is doing this one thing right. Unbelievable that the unions are stronger here than there......

[Gordomac]

Well all I know is that I have made it clear to who works this, that in my next life I wish to be " Born in the USA",, work for someone like AIRCAL, be Based in LAX, live in Laurel Canyon, marry Britney Spears or some other Valley Girl and play drums, in my spare time for a Jazz trio at the Baked Potatoe in the Valley. After four previous lives, I have it on high authority that all requests will be granted.

[IBMJunkman]

Britney is a bit crazy these days. Try another.


Well all I know is that I have made it clear to who works this, that in my next life I wish to be " Born in the USA",, work for someone like AIRCAL, be Based in LAX, live in Laurel Canyon, marry Britney Spears or some other Valley Girl and play drums, in my spare time for a Jazz trio at the Baked Potatoe in the Valley. After four previous lives, I have it on high authority that all requests will be granted.

[FLCH]

Thank you kindly for the additional input. Not much of a choice it seems. *sigh*
Sigh all you want … I was a Brit, started at the bottom 37 years later was at the top 700 out of 16,000 take your choice.

[Check Airman]

So at UAL for example, I'm not going to be placed at the bottom of the seniority list but rather at a seniority # my experience will allow? My question in other words is, do I join as a new hire essentially, a green face or do I join, let's say #7,820 out of #22,000 (random numbers)
You may find this thread a good place to start. Lots of information on this website about pay and work rules. The pay tables tend to be out of date though, so check within the specific company forums for the current information.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/146482-legacy-vs-major.html

[bafanguy]

I think we scared away Lady S. But it sounds like she's probably legacy bait if she wanted to take a run at it.

[Amadis of Gaul]

So at UAL for example, I'm not going to be placed at the bottom of the seniority list but rather at a seniority # my experience will allow? My question in other words is, do I join as a new hire essentially, a green face or do I join, let's say #7,820 out of #22,000 (random numbers)
You're kidding,right?

[rudestuff]

I think she's misunderstood post #17. "What your seniority will allow" (which is fook-all if you're at the bottom) could be interpreted as you can bring some seniority with you. You can't.

[tdracer]

marry Britney Spears or some other Valley Girl

Be careful what you wish for. California Valley Girls make look nice, but have you ever listened to them talk? Like totally, you know? Can you imagine living with that for the rest of your life?

[Oilhead]

https://www.avjobs.com/careers-directory/united-airlines-flight-attendant-career-requirements.asp

That information concerning United FA bases is well out of date and is misleading. The only foreign base is LHR; the rest closed during COVID, any FA who did not have US work rights lost their jobs. United has not hired direct hires into LHR since 1997. There are over 800 transfer requests in for US based FA’s to move to LHR and as someone has already written, everything at United is seniority based, whether pilot, FA or mechanic etc. GUA is a US base.

As far as pilots go, UA is still hiring ferociously. They are on track for hiring 2000 pilots this year alone. There are 17000+ pilots on the property now, with a rumored target of 28000. They may pull back to 1600 if MAX deliveries continue to tank. Green cards or citizenship required.

Southwest just stopped pilot intakes. For now.

[bafanguy]

As far as pilots go, UA is still hiring ferociously. They are on track for hiring 2000 pilots this year alone. There are 17000+ pilots on the property now, with a rumored target of 28000. They may pull back to 1600 if MAX deliveries continue to tank. Green cards or citizenship required.

Southwest just stopped pilot intakes. For now.

Yes, hiring has slowed down a bit but far from stopped.

I suspect Lady S would get a good reception from any US career-destination carrier to which she applied. She just needs to let us plan her career for her. ;)

[Loose rivets]

I'm still curious about the requirement, or not, for the Brits to take the ATP exam.

[bafanguy]

I'm still curious about the requirement, or not, for the Brits to take the ATP exam.


Well, yes they have to take the FAA ATP-CTP course and written exam. How would they be exempted ?

[605carsten]

I'm still curious about the requirement, or not, for the Brits to take the ATP exam.

thats seriously what you worried about?? The CTP course is painful with some retiree showing you a pic of a CB and how a Jet engine works.. followed by one singular test that can be done with a weeks worth of study as opposed to the load of BS we need to do in EASA(or CAA now for that matter).

Also dont forget a workpermit is only that.. you can work for one company and thats it.. try to swap companies and its game over.. or the company goes bankrupt..
. Its not a green card freeforall ffs..

[bafanguy]

thats seriously what you worried about?? The CTP course is painful with some retiree showing you a pic of a CB and how a Jet engine works.. followed by one singular test that can be done with a weeks worth of study as opposed to the load of BS we need to do in EASA(or CAA now for that matter).

.

Yes, the ATP-CTP course is an expensive, annoying slap in the face to many people. It's the Imperial Federal Kakistocracy at work. Not much can be done about that.

[Loose rivets]

As Alfred E Newman said, 'What, me worry?' Just curious. My taking of the ATP was for a specific job in Europe on an N registered 727. They wintered in the Caribbean. Sounded nice.

I'd got plenty of hours under the proverbial belt and had a social security number, just because you could in those days. I took the study for the exam seriously, marooning myself out at SIL's place at Canyon Lake. TX. It was so cold, the waterbed started to get stiff. I studied in an anorak and woolly hat. Ten days of slog.

I walked into an office of Flight Crew Testing Inc., at San Antonio. Randy greeted me from under his ten gallon hat. I knew he was randy cos it was cast in his buckle. His cowboy boots were crossed on his desk. Yes, his feet were in them. "You've got six hours.".

After an hour I didn't know what to do. I spent half and hour going over some questions and writing to Oklahoma about one of their performance questions. I 'proved' that all four answers were wrong. I still didn't know what Randy looked like as he'd never looked up from his book. Probably something like, 'How we Won the West'

I'd done the thing in the Fed's office with my UK licence and logbooks. The flying was straightforward except for the fact I had great difficulty with the RT. I prided myself that my UK RT was very precise and BBCish. Now I was in a land that I knew well, I could even speak TEX-MEX, but the machine gun rattle of ATC tested my processing and patience. It was as though they were all vying for "Coolest RT ramble of the year."

One thing 'Dutch', a hard bitten old skipper, asked me was 'Going towards a beacon, how soon before arrival should your speed be stable?' I answered with great confidence. "Three minutes." He kind of just looked at me in a 'I wonder if he's right, and I've been wrong all these years.' kind of way. Come to think of it, I still don't know the answer.

Oh, by the way, I was driven into San Antonio from the lake by a retired British Airways 1011 captain who'd settled there with his American wife. Dickie Davis??? not sure.

[212man]

You're kidding,right?
Her profile says she lives in South Kensington - I'm guessing she has a somewhat sheltered life......

[bafanguy]

rivets,

Things here have changed a bit since you got your FAA ticket. ;)

[dhorgan]

........and we'll support the Donald!

[bafanguy]

........and we'll support the Donald!

Not sure what that means. The current FAA ATPL licensing criteria became effective in 2013, IIRC.

[Prob30Tempo TSRA]

I looked at this but find no way in .
I had an FAA cpl that I got after my uk licence but regardless of some familiarity , all I got contacted by were snake oil salesmen offering to get my FAA ATP for $12000 or so ..

no mention of who would employ me or on what ? I’m guessing if it’s even possible it’d be right hand seat 737 or maybe LHS regional ?

[bafanguy]

I looked at this but find no way in .

Prob30,

You haven't offered enough of your details to understand your situation. And yes, the world is overrun with snake oil salesmen. The people who offer to train you have no ability to assure you of a job.

But...the first and most critical question: do you have the legal ability to live/work in the USA ? Everything hinges on that.

[Prob30Tempo TSRA]

Prob30,

You haven't offered enough of your details to understand your situation. And yes, the world is overrun with snake oil salesmen. The people who offer to train you have no ability to assure you of a job.

But...the first and most critical question: do you have the legal ability to live/work in the USA ? Everything hinges on that.


No ! They were on about visas for pilots etc but the only groups I’ve seen that offered to is the austronauts and Canadians

[Amadis of Gaul]

Her profile says she lives in South Kensington - I'm guessing she has a somewhat sheltered life......

I take it, people from North Kensington are somewhat more worldly?

[Amadis of Gaul]

Oh, by the way, I was driven into San Antonio from the lake by a retired British Airways 1011 captain who'd settled there with his American wife. Dickie Davis??? not sure.

Doesn't matter. If you're 84, he's probably long dead by now.

[Gordomac]

Looserivets: This thread is, as you know is, about Brit pilots working in the USA.Not Brit pilots trying or even getting a US licence in order to fly a US Registered aircraft..But, part of your wide fan base, I enjoyed the post and larfed me socks off.

I am still coming back for a fifth life and listening to good advice from my Cousins about things like Valley girls.

Overall, thread shows tremendous interest in working as an airline pilot in the USA. Just the hint of an opening and the world and his wife are lining up. Wholly admirable really..

[hans brinker]

No ! They were on about visas for pilots etc but the only groups I’ve seen that offered to is the austronauts and Canadians

Not sure about Canadians. Yes, only foreigners currently getting work visas in the US are OZ E3 visas, and they are 2 year renewable, company specific and only for certain regionals/ULCCs. No pathway to green card or better employment outside the valley girl approach.

For the ATP, AFAIK, as long as you have the hours:

https://atpflightschool.com/atp/

$15K/20 days, and I would guess cheaper shops are available. But I would not come here without a green card in place.

[bafanguy]

For the ATP, AFAIK, as long as you have the hours:

https://atpflightschool.com/atp/

$15K/20 days, and I would guess cheaper shops are available.

I assume the cost would depend on what the prospective student has going into a training regimen. If one were getting the FAA ATP from scratch and on one's own with minim total flight time, a school like the one you cited might be one way to go.

Those coming from an extensive large airplane background and only wanting to get the ATP in an airplane they've been flying can just hook up with an outfit in KMIA to get the ticket in a sim after taking the ATP-CTP course and written exam. Many have done it that way.

I don't recall anyone offering up the price they paid doing it that way but I'm going to guess it wasn't $15K. Of course, I could always be wrong...

[hans brinker]

I assume the cost would depend on what the prospective student has going into a training regimen. If one were getting the FAA ATP from scratch and on one's own with minim total flight time, a school like the one you cited might be one way to go.

Those coming from an extensive large airplane background and only wanting to get the ATP in an airplane they've been flying and just hook up with an outfit in KMIA to get the ticket in a sim after taking the ATP-CTP course and written exam. Many have done it that way.

I don't recall anyone offering up the price they paid doing it that way but I'm going to guess it wasn't $15K. Of course, I could always be wrong...

FWIW, I used AATPS in '05 to get my FAA ATP, after getting my FAA ME CPL/IR, IN '98, and flying in the EU on my JAA ATPL for 7 years. Came in with over 4K turbine, 2K TPIC (FK50/DHC8). 1 day for the GLEIM written, 2 days for the prep and check ride in a twin comanche. Probably the only reason I passed was that the examiner knew I would go to airline training and never seat foot in a piston. Think it was $2K. But I have no idea if that is still an option today.

[bafanguy]

So my choice is the 73 at UAL (last time on type 13 years ago on the -500 or Delta (AAL will announce day after tomorrow an order for 100 planes, the majority Airbus).

I don't care about the FAA certification I have >6,000 hrs PIC on the 777. I care more about how long it will take. I just don't want to downgrade. I have a pretty good seniority where I am but I am reading about absurd pay rates on the US.



I'd like to have a look at DAL but they are heavily Airbus.

Lady S,

From what you've said about your understanding of US airlines, I have to say I have failed to properly explain the situation a person such as yourself would face coming here to fly for a legacy. I'm not Hemingway...sorry.

It makes absolutely no difference to a new hire whether an airline is "...heavily Airbus." or not. NO...DIFFERENCE. It should not be a factor in choosing a destination airline spot.

For example, despite your vast B777 PIC experience, if you were to go to UAL as a new hire and get a B777 F/O slot you'd go to school as if you couldn't even SPELL B777. I know of a guy who went from a ME airline as a B77 captain to UAL...and that was his experience. No surprises there.

A new hire pilot will get whatever airplane and/or base seniority allows. That's as succinctly as I know how to say it. The captain slots going to new hires at UAL or DL are wild anomalies and can/will be undone at the first major economic downturn...or when those senior to them decide they want to be a captain after all.

Sounds like you've got a sweet deal where you care. Circumstances here do not appear to suit your priorities. No problem: horses for courses, right ?

I'm sure you'll make the right choice for yourself.

[bafanguy]

Lady S,

I don't blame you. I wouldn't want to be dumped on an Airbus either.

[212man]

I refer to my earlier post…,

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

Lady S,

I don't blame you. I wouldn't want to be dumped on an Airbus either.

It’s fine once you get used to it…:E

[Check Airman]

Lady Speedbird

From what you’ve written, I’m not certain I’ve explained myself clearly. You said you don’t want to downgrade. As it stands now, you will almost certainly be a narrowbody FO if you come to the US. You may get lucky and secure a 767 or A330/777 slot in class, but I wouldn’t count on it. Your previous experience will NOT be a factor in your initial aircraft/base assignment. That will be based on your seniority within your particular class. Typically (but not always), that’s determined by age (eldest is most senior).

If you don’t want to fly an Airbus, Delta plans to be an all-Airbus WB fleet in the future.

As someone else pointed out, you’ll go through a full type rating course when you get here, even if you got very lucky and got the 777 at United.

Also, you’ll need 1000hrs as SIC at a part 121 carrier before you can be a captain. I’m not sure if they’ve relaxed that rule to allow your previous time to count, but when last I checked (5+ years ago), this was not the case, so you’ll have to sit in the right seat for a minimum of 1000hrs before you can be a CA.

Right (or left) seat in the 757 won’t get you to the 777 any faster. It’s all a matter of seniority. You could theoretically go from 320 FO to 777 CA. Nothing would prevent that.

For now, United is offering 737 CA slots in newhire class. I’m told in one of the more recent classes, nobody wanted it, so the junior few people got stuck with it. Given you haven’t got any 121 SIC time, I’m not even certain you’d be eligible for that. Along those lines, if being a captain ASAP is important, you may want to bid NB FO instead of WB FO, as you only get flight time credit for the time spent in the seat. (Pay and rest/duty limits are based on the entire flight time though).

The last thing I’ll add is that I hope money isn’t the sole factor you’re considering. Things are good now. They weren’t always like this, and history doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes.

[Rhodes13]

I’m also assuming you have the right to
live and work in France/EU and speak French to an appropriate level and it’s endorsed on your license? And of course you’d also start at the bottom again at Air France on the 320

I find it extraordinary that a senior skipper at BA thinks they can waltz into another legacy and take a command given how sacrosanct seniority is at most legacy carriers.

I really appreciate your I put. I did gather as much that's why I kept saying "leaning Airbus"... I don't want to be dumped on an Airbus and I know I wouldn't be my decision.

From everyone's kind contributions looks like I either stay at BA or move across tomAir France. I admit it's quite a complicated system, the American one (we also use seniority, mind you).

I won't be taking much of your time, I have a month or so to make up my mind.

[Prob30Tempo TSRA]

In light of what’s been said , I can’t see any reason for a Brit captain to go to the US - you won’t keep the seat you’ve been in and thus the tremendous pay available to those in the states on the large stuff will not be accessible .

[Kenny]

I’ve spent the last 25 years living as an expat in the US&A. For the last 9 years, I’ve been at United and currently work at the training center in Denver, teaching on the 777. So, I’ve had a front seat view of the new hire training, particularly on the 777.

We’d give you an interview inside a week of applying. Not quite but your CV would move to the interview stack very very quickly. New hire assignments change from week to week. We had a huge amount of new hires being assigned to the 777 last year but that has dropped right off. So expecting the 777 as a new hire, is unlikely. More likely is the 737/320 as an FO or if it floats your boat, you can bid for a Captain position on either but still have to do about 9 months as an FO before actually sitting in the seat. Your experience will get you an interview but you still have to get the 121 experience in order to upgrade.

Flying a plane is flying a plane but operating in the US can be totally different from operating anywhere else in the world. We have former Captains from EK, EY, CX and other long haul operators from all over the world, who have joined over the last two years. Without exception they’ve not only brought a huge amount of experience to the operation but also, more importantly, a good attitude. Don’t come if you’re not able to accept that they do things their way and have done for decades. I can’t speak for other carriers but we are trying to make a concerted effort to become more ICAO compliant but it will take time. If anyone thinks they’re going to be able to join a US carrier, jump in the left seat of a WB and simply do things the way they did at their previous operator, they’re in for a very rude awakening. There is a cultural difference that you can’t fail to appreciate. I’m not aiming this at you LS but it’s a general comment for the peanut gallery.

At UAL the 777/787 are the most senior aircraft for the left seat. Captains are easily making mid to high $400’s at a minimum depending on their seniority within their respective fleet and how much they choose to fly. Currently, the most junior Captain on the 777 is about a 5000 number and we have about 16500 active pilots. Retirements really start ramping up this year and continue for about the next 6 years at a minimum, so anyone joining now will have to wait around 10 years to get the 777/787 as a Captain. If Boeing hadn’t completely c0cked up the 737 & 787 deliveries, this would probably drop by about 3 years.

I’d be surprised if it was any different at DAL in terms of getting a WB left seat. Especially as United has more WB than DAL and AA combined. You have to pay your dues with time and possibly luck with timing but seniority rules everything. There are no short cuts. Life is extremely good right now but as I tell the youngsters who’ve joined United in the last 3 years after only flying an RJ for a few years, this is unprecedented and could end in the blink of an eye. Don’t take it for granted.

[bafanguy]

Also, you’ll need 1000hrs as SIC at a part 121 carrier before you can be a captain. I’m not sure if they’ve relaxed that rule to allow your previous time to count, but when last I checked (5+ years ago), this was not the case, so you’ll have to sit in the right seat for a minimum of 1000hrs before you can be a CA.

Check A,

As far as I know, that 1,000 hours FAA Part 121 time for upgrade is a hard number. I assume those getting "forced" into a B737 spot in UAL new hire school were hired with that requirement met, i.e., regional experience.

[Kenny]

Check A,

As far as I know, that 1,000 hours FAA Part 121 time for upgrade is a hard number. I assume those getting "forced" into a B737 spot in UAL new hire school were hired with that requirement met, i.e., regional experience.

They do. The new hire Captain thing, is designed to poach captains from Spirit, Frontier, JetBlue, etc. in an effort to kill off the competition. it seems to be working

[Kenny]

@Kenny: Very enlighting, and CA's earlier posts too. That's why I came here, for insight and advice. I don't know everything - although many people on PPRUNE and APC claim that. I know certain things and ask about the rest. EDIT: I absolutely agree that any new hire should follow company SOPs - either written or sometimes unwritten. Your overall post is very enlightening.

You're welcome. The grass, as they say, can seem very green on the other side. There was a time when I would’ve gladly given up an important body part to have had the chance of an 18 year career at BA. Yes, the money we’re now earning is exceptionally good but you don’t have to go that far back to a time when US pilots were getting far less than their European peers and were proportionately a lot more angry and disillusioned with the industry. I cross my fingers every morning that we never return to that time again. But as history has shown us, the industry is cyclical; when things are good in the world they’re great in the US. When they’re not so good, they’re appalling in the US. The worst thing to be faced with, is moving to the US, joining a new company and then being told you’re surplus to requirements.

Good luck with whatever happens. I can think of a lot worse things than living in South Ken and being a 777 Captain at BA.

[sudden twang]

Lady S,
18 years in BA and 6000hours PIC on the 777 so a LH command after about 11years. That’s a career progression much better than many.

[Gary Brown]

snip

Visa is not a problem either (married to a US citizen) and btw I do have an FAA PPL on the Caravan.

snip

I'm sure you already know this, but I'll just kick this in as part of the general discussion........ Spousal Green Cards (which is the Visa you'd get) currently take well over a year to process, and a good bit longer if the US citizen who is the Sponsor - ie, your husband in this case - does not actually live in the USA. Maybe you already have the precious Green Card, but anyone starting from scratch would need to be careful how they sell their availability to start work to a potential US employer.

[hans brinker]

Lady S,
18 years in BA and 6000hours PIC on the 777 so a LH command after about 11years. That’s a career progression much better than many.

And a lot faster than it would have been at any US Legacy.
Realistically takes about 20 to get WB command.

[Check Airman]

And a lot faster than it would have been at any US Legacy.
Realistically takes about 20 to get WB command.

Not that long ago, it was 20 years to NB command at a legacy…

[sudden twang]

I’m told 777 command is 18years at BA.

[Kenny]

And a lot faster than it would have been at any US Legacy.
Realistically takes about 20 to get WB command.

Historically perhaps but it’s a brave new world these days and 20 years to the LHS of a WB is no longer the case. I managed it in 8 on the B767.

[Sygyzy]

Methinks Lady S has acheived what we all desire far too quickly and didn't have to do the hard yards. I spent 18 years in the RHS out of Hamble - just the way the cookie crumbled. I joined BA behind many others from the schools, all of a similiar age. I might have been able to get a shorhaul command perhaps 18 months quicker, but that was it. Striaght to WB command though.

After 18 years at BA you've left it far too late to move to the US. You're interested in a larger salary, you won't get it in the 'seniority based' US for years. In another 18 years at a US legacy you'll be where you are today or ahead, having lived on a lower salary for years. Go to the ME or China, (it used to be CX too) for a mega salary but beware the T &Cs and labour laws - or lack of them.

That's my take on it. S

S

[JuniorMan]

Historically perhaps but it’s a brave new world these days and 20 years to the LHS of a WB is no longer the case. I managed it in 8 on the B767.

757/767, with the vast majority of your trips being on the 757?

[Plastic787]

Looks like I’m gonna have to be the one calling BS here. Unless Lady S’s 777 command was one of the protected Midland LH positions there’s no way she could have achieved any LH command in under 12 years in BA. It’s historically 20 years, purely seniority driven, and not usually coming any lower than 18.

Even if the talked about bulge of 200+ retirements a year is really coming up soon I’m still at least 6/7 years away from the most junior LH command (which lies around 1850 in new seniority numbers last I checked recently) and I’ve been in 8 years.

Someone would have to convince me otherwise that some exception has been made to what is normally a strictly seniority driven process. I’m aware of one ex midland management pilot who has achieved a LH command in under the timeframe quoted above.

Apologies for the thread drift.

[Gordomac]

Drifted off a bit but on time to Command in BA, I agree with all Hamsters and other joiners of the 60's. Time toi Command was about 20 years. That is why many of us left. There was a period when BA started franchises etc. I know of chaps who went off to Atlas out of somewhere in the Midlands on B747, had BA painted on the side and called themselves BA Captains. Those who joined as DEC FO were quickly upgraded. Same with the A320 franchises.

C'mon Lady S. Bit bored are we? Too many in this camp know quite a lot. 11 years to LHS ? Many doubting. BA Mainline- no chance. You appear to flip flop too at a rate that would make Sir Keir proud. One minute where off to the USA,, no probs anywhere, then, pursuaded by Prune to forget that swift Direct track to glory and focus on another very swift route in another National Legacy carrier. Probably speak French and know Macron personally.

My worry is the flip flop decision making, now settling on TRE because of money might have a factor on more serious decision making that is requitred in the real world of LHS operations.

Back to thread though. Of course, all hinges on having the right to live AND work in the US BEFORE you go chasing after the licence .

I did chase the USA dream and even looked at squeezing in through Canada but they were as daft as the Americans boiling down to the official take ; Look, get the right to live & work and if licenced, we will hire you. But Embassy came back with, No, get the job offer and we will then give you the visa ! No visa, no job. NO job, no visa. Er. I pulled out of negotiations.

Occasionally, there has been back-door, nudge,nudge, ways. I recall one advert in Flt Mag where some Californian Flight school wanted Instructors.. Visa, work-permit, FAA licencing, all provided. I know ONE who went. After several marriages, partnership breaks, almost bankrupt, he DID wind up with Delta. Had a nice address in Malibu and I am overcome with total envy, decades later. Right place, right time and boy did he take the risk and boy did it cost. Oooooooh but I HATE him !

[sudden twang]

Looks like I’m gonna have to be the one calling BS here. Unless Lady S’s 777 command was one of the protected Midland LH positions there’s no way she could have achieved any LH command in under 12 years in BA. It’s historically 20 years, purely seniority driven, and not usually coming any lower than 18.

Even if the talked about bulge of 200+ retirements a year is really coming up soon I’m still at least 6/7 years away from the most junior LH command (which lies around 1850 in new seniority numbers last I checked recently) and I’ve been in 8 years.

Someone would have to convince me otherwise that some exception has been made to what is normally a strictly seniority driven process. I’m aware of one ex midland management pilot who has achieved a LH command in under the timeframe quoted above.

Apologies for the thread drift..

Should be easy to check, don’t you Nigels have bid programmes that’ll show 777 capts with 18 years service.
Had coffee with a BA777 FO and they had the same opinion as Plastic.

[Kenny]

757/767, with the vast majority of your trips being on the 757?

Without wanting to derail the thread, yes it’s a combined base. No, all my trips are on the 76.

[Amadis of Gaul]

Looks like I’m gonna have to be the one calling BS here. Unless Lady S’s 777 command was one of the protected Midland LH positions there’s no way she could have achieved any LH command in under 12 years in BA. It’s historically 20 years, purely seniority driven, and not usually coming any lower than 18.

Even if the talked about bulge of 200+ retirements a year is really coming up soon I’m still at least 6/7 years away from the most junior LH command (which lies around 1850 in new seniority numbers last I checked recently) and I’ve been in 8 years.

Someone would have to convince me otherwise that some exception has been made to what is normally a strictly seniority driven process. I’m aware of one ex midland management pilot who has achieved a LH command in under the timeframe quoted above.

Apologies for the thread drift.

I mean...this is the internet, who cares if she/he is legit or not?

[3Greens]

It could as well be now, although the number is actually lower. When I got mine it was a after 7 years 11 months 2 days. I hope that clarifies it. I don't care when others move on to the LHS, I focus on my job. There's plenty of aircraft coming in (18th A350-1000 just arrived) and expecting 18 (+24) B 777-9 which I can't wait to fly.

In any case, I'll probably be moving on to TRE by the time the 777-9 is in service
there is no way you got a 777 command in under 8 years.
Also, in BA you don’t “choose” to go TRI>TRE. You apply for a training appointment and you have to get both tickets.
I joined in 2000 and took me 19 years to get a LH command.

[B2N2]

I’ve spent the last 25 years living as an expat in the US&A. For the last 9 years, I’ve been at United and currently work at the training center in Denver, teaching on the 777. So, I’ve had a front seat view of the new hire training, particularly on the 777.

We’d give you an interview inside a week of applying. Not quite but your CV would move to the interview stack very very quickly. New hire assignments change from week to week. We had a huge amount of new hires being assigned to the 777 last year but that has dropped right off. So expecting the 777 as a new hire, is unlikely. More likely is the 737/320 as an FO or if it floats your boat, you can bid for a Captain position on either but still have to do about 9 months as an FO before actually sitting in the seat. Your experience will get you an interview but you still have to get the 121 experience in order to upgrade.

Flying a plane is flying a plane but operating in the US can be totally different from operating anywhere else in the world. We have former Captains from EK, EY, CX and other long haul operators from all over the world, who have joined over the last two years. Without exception they’ve not only brought a huge amount of experience to the operation but also, more importantly, a good attitude. Don’t come if you’re not able to accept that they do things their way and have done for decades. I can’t speak for other carriers but we are trying to make a concerted effort to become more ICAO compliant but it will take time. If anyone thinks they’re going to be able to join a US carrier, jump in the left seat of a WB and simply do things the way they did at their previous operator, they’re in for a very rude awakening. There is a cultural difference that you can’t fail to appreciate. I’m not aiming this at you LS but it’s a general comment for the peanut gallery.

At UAL the 777/787 are the most senior aircraft for the left seat. Captains are easily making mid to high $400’s at a minimum depending on their seniority within their respective fleet and how much they choose to fly. Currently, the most junior Captain on the 777 is about a 5000 number and we have about 16500 active pilots. Retirements really start ramping up this year and continue for about the next 6 years at a minimum, so anyone joining now will have to wait around 10 years to get the 777/787 as a Captain. If Boeing hadn’t completely c0cked up the 737 & 787 deliveries, this would probably drop by about 3 years.

I’d be surprised if it was any different at DAL in terms of getting a WB left seat. Especially as United has more WB than DAL and AA combined. You have to pay your dues with time and possibly luck with timing but seniority rules everything. There are no short cuts. Life is extremely good right now but as I tell the youngsters who’ve joined United in the last 3 years after only flying an RJ for a few years, this is unprecedented and could end in the blink of an eye. Don’t take it for granted.

This and all of this ^^^
All fact and no conjecture.
Thread could have been closed after this answer.
With the attitude that you hold a Command now and should deserve a Command in the US you’ll get roasted……roasted.

[wiggy]

FWIW I've been lurking for a few days, eyebrows steadily rising...

If I've got the sums right the claim is command on the T7 at BA with 8 years mainline seniority in BA in around 2013, plus or minus..AFAIK that could only have been achieved via a management route.

I was on that fleet at the time and also for a long time after and any such appointment grossly out of seniority would have been the subject of much discussion...(it certainly was when a very junior management appointment happened on the 744)....never heard a squeak about any such happening on the T7.

Being a long term French resident I'm not sure about that easing into AF is really that simple…

Still, never say never, somehow all could be legit.(as mentioned up thread something along the lines of a consequence of the Midland deal) .. in any event it's got people talking....

[Gordomac]

Wiggs ; Agreed. Morning lurk-about fun but I fear for the youthful & naive who might just dash over with Mum & Dad's 20 grand to give to some flightschool who promise visas and jobs after training. Care too much I guess. Naive too. Had a mate in Air Cal or Cal-air or whatever in 1982 and told me that things were different in the USA and they did things very differently. He advised I pop over to LAX and just bang on the Chief Pilots door ("They love that", he said ). I did, stayed with Bro-in Law who lived in Laurel Canyon & got his Green card and was ready to sponsor me . CP Sec was luvley. Told me to go away.

Don't think we will hear from Lady S again but he, she, er, whaaaaat, had a larf..

Ooooops, there goes the ....Master Warning, Troll Alert..........Ok, YOU have !

[ReallyAnnoyed]

How is joining AF any different than any other legacy carrier? There will be choking on baguettes by the union if you could walk into a DEC job on the 777.

As a side note, I believe their language requirements are pretty strict, with some Belgians struggling to pass the test.

[Amadis of Gaul]

How is joining AF any different than any other legacy carrier? There will be choking on baguettes by the union if you could walk into a DEC job on the 777.


Croissants, actually.

[Squawk7777]

What is the pay difference between BA, AF, and the US carriers?

[bafanguy]

What is the pay difference between BA, AF, and the US carriers?

That covers a lot of territory. For ballpark numbers from US carriers, see this website. They may or may not be up to the minute but it'll give you an idea:

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy

[Squawk7777]

That covers a lot of territory. For ballpark numbers from US carriers, see this website. They may or may not be up to the minute but it'll give you an idea:

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy

Thanks, but I was just curious about the legacy carriers in Europe. I work for AA, and am curious about the pay difference, top scale CA narrow body and wide body (BA, AF & LH).
​​​​​

[bafanguy]

Thanks, but I was just curious about the legacy carriers in Europe. I work for AA, and am curious about the pay difference, top scale CA narrow body and wide body (BA, AF & LH).
​​​​​


Ah so...didn't understand.

[Prob30Tempo TSRA]

In summary then :
I must divorce my old boiler , marry Daisy Duke to get a geeen card , do 1000 hrs RHS in a 737 and, hey presto , everything’s sorted .

I think I might stay in the un - United Kingdom .

[Kenny]

Thanks, but I was just curious about the legacy carriers in Europe. I work for AA, and am curious about the pay difference, top scale CA narrow body and wide body (BA, AF & LH).
​​​​​

Squawk,

That’s not easy to answer as foreign carriers don’t necessarily do pay, the way it’s done in the US. You have to look at how much you have after you’ve paid your taxes and what you can actually buy with what’s left.

I have friends in the left seat at a variety of carriers around the world and let’s put it this way, they’d like to get paid what we’re getting paid right now. But they wouldn’t necessarily want to live in the US.

Pay isn’t everything.

[HeadUpTheTailpipe]

And it's a flash in the pan to boot. As we all know, this industry runs in roughly 6-8 year cycles. It won't be long before a wave of redundancies and misery hits the US again. 2-3 years? US aviation seems to be more volatile than most, so be very careful what you wish for...

[Gordomac]

Prob30; No. You forgot to get the FAA Lic after securing right to live and work. Don't worry though, that bit is easier than GCSE in Theatre Lighting.

[Boabity]

Squawk,

That’s not easy to answer as foreign carriers don’t necessarily do pay, the way it’s done in the US. You have to look at how much you have after you’ve paid your taxes and what you can actually buy with what’s left.

I have friends in the left seat at a variety of carriers around the world and let’s put it this way, they’d like to get paid what we’re getting paid right now. But they wouldn’t necessarily want to live in the US.

Pay isn’t everything.


Absolutely, I work for a company with US and EU employees and the US guys get roughly double what we do but I'm in no way attrached to living and working over there. I've seen a reasonable amount of the US, it's fine but there are so many other places I'd rather live first, a lot of that has to do with me and my own needs and ethics which are so comepletely not aligned with the culture.

[neilki]

dixi,

Didn't know about the United London F/A base. The pilots could very well have been Brits but I find no mention of a London pilot base:Domicile & RelocationUpon completion of training, graduates are assigned to one of the United domiciles - Boston, Chicago, Cleveland, Denver, Honolulu, Houston, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Newark, San Francisco, Washington DC, Frankfurt, Guam, Hong Kong, London, and Narita.


https://www.avjobs.com/careers-directory/united-airlines-flight-attendant-career-requirements.asp
A good number of flight crew living in Europe; but no base there.

[bafanguy]

A good number of flight crew living in Europe; but no base there.

No doubt about that. Crew members commute to US airlines from all over the world and have as long as I can recall. That's a personal, informal choice.

That's a different situation from an airline establishing a formal crew base outside the USA. And there have certainly been overseas bases for US airlines but they are not numerous and likely rather small.

The link you provided is regarding F/As.

It's difficult to keep up with what all US carriers are doing regarding crew basing.

[Squawk7777]

No doubt about that. Crew members commute to US airlines from all over the world and have as long as I can recall. That's a personal, informal choice.

That's a different situation from an airline establishing a formal crew base outside the USA. And there have certainly been overseas bases for US airlines but they are not numerous and likely rather small.

The link you provided is regarding F/As.

It's difficult to keep up with what all US carriers are doing regarding crew basing.

Not that difficult.

I think the only US carriers with foreign pilot bases were/are cargo (Atlas, Kalitta, Southern etc.), similar to what CX once offered (US and EU). F/As, different story. AA is required to hire Colombian nationals for cabin crew for them to operate the number of flights to Colombia. They are BOG based, have their own union and contract. The same goes for the Chilean and Peruvian. Not sure about Argentina or Brazil.

There are a few EU (ex-) pats that work in the US and live in the EU. Not many though. To me, it's worth it.

[bafanguy]

Not that difficult.

I think the only US carriers with foreign pilot bases were/are cargo (Atlas, Kalitta, Southern etc.), similar to what CX once offered (US and EU). F/As, different story. AA is required to hire Colombian nationals for cabin crew for them to operate the number of flights to Colombia. They are BOG based, have their own union and contract. The same goes for the Chilean and Peruvian. Not sure about Argentina or Brazil.

There are a few EU (ex-) pats that work in the US and live in the EU. Not many though. To me, it's worth it.


Okay....