What shortage?

[BTMS_OVHT]

Hearing/reading from everywhere about pilot shortage. Current job market makes me wonder, what the hack they are talking about?
I am not German, nor the French, nor Spanish or Italian speaker able to apply for the legacies such as LHG, AF, IB, etc.. I am also not experienced on Airbus nor the Boeing.
Having about 8k hours including around 3k jet hours ranging from both - bizav and airline (acmi) operation.
And all of the sudden, me and many of my colleagues are simply falling thru the net of the commercial interest of operators. Late 30ties, early 40ties, old and experienced enough for the RHS and not experienced enough for the LHS.

Seeing youngsters coming freshly from the flight school right into the jetliners and keeping the experienced guys behind makes me wonder how much this industry deteriorated over last several years.

[a350pilots]

All about costs. Cadets are cheaper than experienced pilots.

[VariablePitchP]

Hearing/reading from everywhere about pilot shortage. Current job market makes me wonder, what the hack they are talking about?
I am not German, nor the French, nor Spanish or Italian speaker able to apply for the legacies such as LHG, AF, IB, etc.. I am also not experienced on Airbus nor the Boeing.
Having about 8k hours including around 3k jet hours ranging from both - bizav and airline (acmi) operation.
And all of the sudden, me and many of my colleagues are simply falling thru the net of the commercial interest of operators. Late 30ties, early 40ties, old and experienced enough for the RHS and not experienced enough for the LHS.

Seeing youngsters coming freshly from the flight school right into the jetliners and keeping the experienced guys behind makes me wonder how much this industry deteriorated over last several years.

Have you paid Ryanair for a type rating yet?

[excrab]

Do you have a U.K. licence and right to work there… Jet2 looking for TR Airbus pilots over the next couple of years…

[White Van Driver]

Hearing/reading from everywhere about pilot shortage. Current job market makes me wonder, what the hack they are talking about?
I am not German, nor the French, nor Spanish or Italian speaker able to apply for the legacies such as LHG, AF, IB, etc.. I am also not experienced on Airbus nor the Boeing.
Having about 8k hours including around 3k jet hours ranging from both - bizav and airline (acmi) operation.
And all of the sudden, me and many of my colleagues are simply falling thru the net of the commercial interest of operators. Late 30ties, early 40ties, old and experienced enough for the RHS and not experienced enough for the LHS.

Seeing youngsters coming freshly from the flight school right into the jetliners and keeping the experienced guys behind makes me wonder how much this industry deteriorated over last several years.

Europe is an odd place in that regard, many operators seemingly preferring very low experience pilots.

If you are British, BA is hiring aggressively at the moment and doesn't care about your type rating, so long as you have 1500 hours on an aircraft type that satisfies ZFTT and flown this type in the last 12 months.
BA Euroflyer at Gatwick asks for 500 hours or 100 sectors on an aircraft type that satisfies ZFTT.

BA regularly hires experienced pilots like yourself.

Hope that helps?

[Denti]

I would say there is several factors. There is no pilot shortage in Europe. Yes, there is finally some demand and the bigger airlines hire hundreds of new pilots each per year, but we are far away from a real shortage, and i doubt it will ever happen in Europe like it does in the USA, where ALPA did run a very successful campaign using the families of the fatalities in a sad accident to push through their agenda into law and creating a real shortage.

And yes, airlines do prefer cadets. Some of them from their "own" cadet programs where people are selected before training and trained using the airlines SOPs from day one, so they do get an entry level pay cadet with a complete training record from pedestrian to airline pilot. And if they cannot get enough of those, they prefer type rated direct entry pilots with time on type on the line. Only the third category is for those that are willing to pay for a type rating.

We do see a certain discrepancy between the EU and the UK at the moment, which was to be expected as the UK is now a closed off market. If you have an UK license and right to live and work there (don't see any visa sponsoring currently), then i would suggest to try there, as there seems to be quite a demand in some airlines that do not necessarily expect pilots to have the correct typerating.

[BTMS_OVHT]

Have you paid Ryanair for a type rating yet?
no. why should I?

[BTMS_OVHT]

Do you have a U.K. licence and right to work there… Jet2 looking for TR Airbus pilots over the next couple of years…

i do have UK licence, however not right to work, nor to live.

[BTMS_OVHT]

Europe is an odd place in that regard, many operators seemingly preferring very low experience pilots.

If you are British, BA is hiring aggressively at the moment and doesn't care about your type rating, so long as you have 1500 hours on an aircraft type that satisfies ZFTT and flown this type in the last 12 months.
BA Euroflyer at Gatwick asks for 500 hours or 100 sectors on an aircraft type that satisfies ZFTT.

BA regularly hires experienced pilots like yourself.

Hope that helps?

thanks dude, unfortunately I am not qualified to work in UK although i hold both UK and EASA licence. Both with few various types and TRI :-)

[BTMS_OVHT]

All about costs. Cadets are cheaper than experienced pilots.
well. that's true. until next AF477 perhaps?

[Luray]

I noticed too that there is no shortage for pilots that fall between cadet level and preretirement captains and it gets even worse if you are not type rated. In my former airline pay was the same for cadets and experienced FO's. EU is now a place to get some initial hours and then move to a better place or just be low paid bachelor and perhaps by age of 60 you will buy nice little eco studio flat on the outskirts. Its sad to see how experience is not appreciated in EU but it can change overnight like it did in US.

[Tranquility Base]

It’s all done under the guise of ‘diversity’ and the excuse that they have to recruit younger so they’re not accused of age discrimination. This is the Post Covid World where airlines are maximising rosters and profits by overlooking seniority and experience.

It’s shameful and will cost airlines more ultimately as there’s no loyalty as pilots will come and go.

[rudestuff]

well. that's true. until next AF477 perhaps?
Do you mean AF447? I didn't know that was flown by cadets.

[BTMS_OVHT]

It’s all done under the guise of ‘diversity’ and the excuse that they have to recruit younger so they’re not accused of age discrimination. This is the Post Covid World where airlines are maximising rosters and profits by overlooking seniority and experience.<br /><br />It’s shameful and will cost airlines more ultimately as there’s no loyalty as pilots will come and go.<br /><br />another nail into the coffin of european pilot market is bringing-in the 3rd country pilots - mainly the South American and Ukrainian guys. Rumours from authorities are that there is a big pressure coming from the local goverments to validate or convert ICAO to EASA licences even without meeting the criterias contained in Part-FCL. Everything hidden under the exemptions reasoning the "pilot shortage" (famous cat beast airline)<br /><br />And let's break down, what opportunities actually we have in Europe. Ruling out all the legacies and mainlines which are recruiting only the locals, we have:<br />- bizav segment, where many of the captains I met in the simulator or in line ops would be below-average copilots in the airlines, or best pilot aces in the universe (means machos with military background who would not make it into the airlines). There are still some good places to be (e.g. NetJets, Vista - here a big question mark seeing the current development of the Air Hamburg, or if you are lucky, you have a good owner wiling to spend a bit more for a reasonable monthly salary of his crew)<br />- LoCos - draining you down to the last drop of your energy (yellow one) or even worse - placing you into some sh... hole somewehere in the post socialistic countries (in other words, complete Earthquake for your family and kids)<br />- ACMI - some strictly nationalistic (e.g. German one) and those, who are not are usually eastern-european companies driven by ASG or private individuals who are bringing-in the friends of their friends... Moreover usually claiming to own every second of your life in summer and starving in winter..

[BTMS_OVHT]

It’s all done under the guise of ‘diversity’ and the excuse that they have to recruit younger so they’re not accused of age discrimination. This is the Post Covid World where airlines are maximising rosters and profits by overlooking seniority and experience.

It’s shameful and will cost airlines more ultimately as there’s no loyalty as pilots will come and go.

another nail into the coffin of european pilot market is bringing-in the 3rd country pilots - mainly the South American and Ukrainian guys. Rumours from authorities are that there is a big pressure coming from the local goverments to validate or convert ICAO to EASA licences even without meeting the criterias contained in Part-FCL. Everything hidden under the exemptions reasoning the "pilot shortage" (famous cat beast airline)

And let's break down, what opportunities actually we have in Europe. Ruling out all the legacies and mainlines which are recruiting only the locals, we have:
- bizav segment, where many of the captains I met in the simulator or in line ops would be below-average copilots in the airlines, or best pilot aces in the universe (means machos with military background who would not make it into the airlines). There are still some good places to be (e.g. NetJets, Vista - here a big question mark seeing the current development of the Air Hamburg, or if you are lucky, you have a good owner wiling to spend a bit more for a reasonable monthly salary of his crew)
- LoCos - draining you down to the last drop of your energy (yellow one) or even worse - placing you into some sh... hole somewehere in the post socialistic countries (in other words, complete Earthquake for your family and kids)
- ACMI - some strictly nationalistic (e.g. German one) and those, who are not are usually eastern-european companies driven by ASG or private individuals who are bringing-in the friends of their friends... Moreover usually claiming to own every second of your life in summer and starving in winter..

[Luray]

It’s all done under the guise of ‘diversity’ and the excuse that they have to recruit younger so they’re not accused of age discrimination. This is the Post Covid World where airlines are maximising rosters and profits by overlooking seniority and experience.

It’s shameful and will cost airlines more ultimately as there’s no loyalty as pilots will come and go.

Check Airbaltic topic. Apparently they had 'diversity' recruitment drive and now under investigation for recent incidents involving inexperienced pilots.

[BTMS_OVHT]

Do you mean AF447? I didn't know that was flown by cadets.

i am not talking here about the cadets only. wasn't the accident caused by lack of the competence of crew to respond the type-related upset?

[a350pilots]

Air France is perhaps not the best example to examine the correlation between competence and terms and conditions.
Surely one of the remaining airlines with the best T&C in Europe.

[Uplinker]

I recently flew in Europe for a (non aviation) work contract. The company had booked a European LoCo flight for me. As I sometimes do, I asked to visit the cockpit after landing, just to get my fix of an Airbus FBW cockpit.

I was very surprised indeed that both pilots were extremely young, and the guy in the LHS was wearing two silver stripes, the guy in the RHS three stripes ???

[Memphis Hubert]

The american pilot market is closed to externals due to rigid handling of the green card, while Europe rsp. European Community (EC) is open to everyone, and even within the EU there are sufficient numbers of pilots from Eastern Europe (most of the countries are meanwhile in the EC) helping filling gaps, if there are any.
There was never any "pilot shortage" nor will there be any in the future in Europe. Discussion about the effect, flying has on climate (so called "fly shame", thanks to "Greta" and her sponsors) and sharply rising prices for flights will rather adversely affect aviation in Europe and thus labour market.

[rudestuff]

... the guy in the LHS was wearing two silver stripes, the guy in the RHS three stripes ???
Fewer stripes means less weight, better climb performance and lower fuel burn 👍

[BTMS_OVHT]

I recently flew in Europe for a (non aviation) work contract. The company had booked a European LoCo flight for me. As I sometimes do, I asked to visit the cockpit after landing, just to get my fix of an Airbus FBW cockpit.

I was very surprised indeed that both pilots were extremely young, and the guy in the LHS was wearing two silver stripes, the guy in the RHS three stripes ???

that could also mean that LTC was doing walkaround while second officer was sitting on the LHS as an observer before LIFUS. Other scenario could be that three striper was the safety pilot as the two striper was having one of his very first LIFUS sectors.

[RARA9]

Stripes are a very unclear way of determining experience , you could have 5000hrs of flight time and join BA for example and be a 2 striper as you don’t have “BA” experience….

[White Van Driver]

Stripes are a very unclear way of determining experience , you could have 5000hrs of flight time and join BA for example and be a 2 striper as you don’t have “BA” experience….

Indeed, stripes mean very little.
I've worn 2 stripes on the flight deck of a wide body jet where I had more command experience than the captain (4 stripes) and the senior FO (3 stripes) combined!

(this was a rare situation - the FO had been in the company many years, waiting for command - and the captain had recently completed his command training which was also his first command. I had maybe 5000hrs command time from GA and airlines).

They were both consummate professionals, as I would expect.

All the stripes tells you is the position in the company that pilot holds. And even that differs between companies.

[ZuluZuluAlpha]

We do see a certain discrepancy between the EU and the UK at the moment, which was to be expected as the UK is now a closed off market. If you have an UK license and right to live and work there (don't see any visa sponsoring currently), then i would suggest to try there, as there seems to be quite a demand in some airlines that do not necessarily expect pilots to have the correct typerating.

No shortage or genuine demand in the UK I’d say, I have UK licence, right to work etc and I still can’t find work.

[Denti]

No shortage or genuine demand in the UK I’d say, I have UK licence, right to work etc and I still can’t find work.

Interesting, in a time where everybody is hiring, fully sponsored cadet programs are coming back and even easyJet sponsors the type rating for non rated direct entry FOs. At least there seems to be a slightly higher demand there than in the EU, although Eurowings recently offered €30k signing bonus for DEC in Palma, Prag and Stockholm.

[Biffsticksuperhero]

No shortage or genuine demand in the UK I’d say, I have UK licence, right to work etc and I still can’t find work.

Every UK airline is recruiting like mad at the moment, there is a genuine shortage of qualified and experienced pilots. Maybe you’re doing something in mental in the assessment process?

[BTMS_OVHT]

Every UK airline is recruiting like mad at the moment, there is a genuine shortage of qualified and experienced pilots. Maybe you’re doing something in mental in the assessment process?

that's the another odd side of the current selection process. What is the point for experienced guys to solve equations, sudoku or to play roleplays in the group exercises??

[Biffsticksuperhero]

that's the another odd side of the current selection process. What is the point for experienced guys to solve equations, sudoku or to play roleplays in the group exercises??

It’s their train set to decide how and who they want. Tbh, hopefully it nudges out all the CRM nightmares from getting in.

however as demand increases, standards will possibly have to fall.

[BTMS_OVHT]

It’s their train set to decide how and who they want. Tbh, hopefully it nudges out all the CRM nightmares from getting in.

however as demand increases, standards will possibly have to fall.

What you are saying is just a whip on the pilots. i have seen many cases, where guy with very poor CRM skills made it to the Lead captain position or LTC just because he was looking handsome or was having the sweet chit chat with CEO of company :-)

[menekse]

that's the another odd side of the current selection process. What is the point for experienced guys to solve equations, sudoku or to play roleplays in the group exercises??
Years ago I attended a screening in Interpersonal, Hamburg
Among us was an A380 pilot who wanted to move back to Europe
He was failed cause he didn't study enough the Skytest
Some years ago, these kind of interviews were just to block weirdos
Now any weirdo or whatever who has time to practice for long time all these tests that can buy online has good chances to pass any assessment

[ToCatLady]

Reading the original post and all of the replies from the author here, I would say perhaps there’s a case of having a very large chip on your shoulder. May I suggest it’s this chip on your shoulder that’s holding back your career and not the cadets and/or the Airlines.

If it’s obvious here, it’ll absolutely stink in-front of a recruitment team.

[menekse]

Reading the original post and all of the replies from the author here, I would say perhaps there’s a case of having a very large chip on your shoulder. May I suggest it’s this chip on your shoulder that’s holding back your career and not the cadets and/or the Airlines.

If it’s obvious here, it’ll absolutely stink in-front of a recruitment team.
I don't know how is the situation in Australia but if you follow European companies accounts you will see how proud they are that they have all woman or all non european crew
They post photos all the time
I guess that has also an impact in the selection
I opened a thread about nepotism in pilot selection
A poster that says that he flies for airbaltic admitted that he was hired despite he was not meeting the entry requirements
Food for thoughts

[BTMS_OVHT]

Reading the original post and all of the replies from the author here, I would say perhaps there’s a case of having a very large chip on your shoulder. May I suggest it’s this chip on your shoulder that’s holding back your career and not the cadets and/or the Airlines.

If it’s obvious here, it’ll absolutely stink in-front of a recruitment team.

i have no hard feelings at all even it might sound like.
Everything I am sharing here is the experience i observed or experienced myself.

[HidekiTojo]

Reading the original post and all of the replies from the author here, I would say perhaps there’s a case of having a very large chip on your shoulder. May I suggest it’s this chip on your shoulder that’s holding back your career and not the cadets and/or the Airlines.

If it’s obvious here, it’ll absolutely stink in-front of a recruitment team.


Well aren't you a little Ray of sunshine.

[menekse]

i am not talking here about the cadets only. wasn't the accident caused by lack of the competence of crew to respond the type-related upset?
Take a look on my thread
https://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/652728-nepotism-pilot-selection-4.html?ispreloading=1

Pilots claiming that fly for a specific company admitted that were hired without meeting entry requirements
On a brand new fleet of A220 they had 3 runway excursions, one hard landing with AOG afterwards and descend before FAF ending up 800ft MSL at 6.5 nm before the threshold in brussels
One final report for excursion blames among others the pilot selection, rest are pending
..........
investigation has analysed the all available (provided) information about the training process of the pilot involved in the serious incident and suggests that there are potential gaps in the company pilots’ selection, training and checking programs,........

[ZuluZuluAlpha]

Every UK airline is recruiting like mad at the moment, there is a genuine shortage of qualified and experienced pilots. Maybe you’re doing something in mental in the assessment process?So it seems but no joy for me, clearly something is wrong with me somewhere but unfortunately i never get to know or learn because no feedback is given. I’ve been rejected by BA several times and rarely ever get past initial application for all airlines so I don’t know what mental I’m doing in the assessment process.
I apply for what they’re asking for at the time, I don’t have bucket loads of experience but I am qualified and ready to work. like someone posted earlier, it’s their train set and they can do whatever they like.

[rudestuff]

Take it with a pinch of salt when people say they can't get jobs. Just having a licence or even a licence with experience doesn't mean they have what they are looking for. Unfortunately someone has to come bottom of every class.

[menekse]

Take it with a pinch of salt when people say they can't get jobs. Just having a licence or even a licence with experience doesn't mean they have what they are looking for. Unfortunately someone has to come bottom of every class.
What are they looking for?
For people who don't meet entry requirements but still get invited and pass the assessment?
Or for 1.5m girls with piston experience?
btw since I was 18 years old ( Air Force Academy) I never stayed unemployed for more than 2 months
This doesn't prevent me to say what I see

[BTMS_OVHT]

What are they looking for?
For people who don't meet entry requirements but still get invited and pass the assessment?
Or for 1.5m girls with piston experience?
btw since I was 18 years old ( Air Force Academy) I never stayed unemployed for more than 2 months
This doesn't prevent me to say what I see

It might sounds like i am unemployed :-) However it is not the case.

[bringbackthe80s]

There is a shortage of experienced captains worldwide, a huge shortage in fact. Airlines are unable to expand and aircraft are on the ground, these are the facts as it is right now.
Now, to call this a pilot shortage, as always isn’t correct. Because it does not translate into a need for inexperienced first officers/cadets etc.. so, as long as we differentiate between these two categories than we can absolutely agree that yes, we have a big big shortage.

[VariablePitchP]

There is a shortage of experienced captains worldwide, a huge shortage in fact. Airlines are unable to expand and aircraft are on the ground, these are the facts as it is right now.
Now, to call this a pilot shortage, as always isn’t correct. Because it does not translate into a need for inexperienced first officers/cadets etc.. so, as long as we differentiate between these two categories than we can absolutely agree that yes, we have a big big shortage.

Got any evidence of this? US? Absolutely. UK? Nope…

[menekse]

some positions are reserved in the name of equity

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/970x250/1691134651_cf0910e3da88476a8a540a4d14153b75b701d048.jpeg

[bringbackthe80s]

Got any evidence of this? US? Absolutely. UK? Nope…

No idea about the uk, but worldwide, asia, us and many other places, yes.

[BTMS_OVHT]

No idea about the uk, but worldwide, asia, us and many other places, yes.

this thread is putting the finder on the pilot market in Europe....

[plikee]

Got any evidence of this? US? Absolutely. UK? Nope…

Seriously? Almost every UK airline that does DEC were hiring DEC 6 months ago. J2, Wizz, RYR, Lauda, even BA Euroflyer! The only one I can't recall was EZY.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Seriously? Almost every UK airline that does DEC were hiring DEC 6 months ago. J2, Wizz, RYR, Lauda, even BA Euroflyer! The only one I can't recall was EZY.

^^ exactly this. Certainly 6 months ago in the UK airlines that do recruit DEC were trying. Ex former colleagues at Wizz UK said they were crying out for DEC for sure. RYR same. Many FOs at RYR not taking command moved on because of RYRs poor T&Cs in first 2 years as P1. I believe RYR have now removed the salary deduction and they all get the same. BA have so many going through courses this year. 300+ joined so far this year. That will continue into 2024 for sure.

[VariablePitchP]

Seriously? Almost every UK airline that does DEC were hiring DEC 6 months ago. J2, Wizz, RYR, Lauda, even BA Euroflyer! The only one I can't recall was EZY.

Aaaand not any more.

An actual shortage and they’d be hiring still and giving £50k joining bonuses.

Simply hiring people doesn’t mean there’s a particularly aggressive shortage, just the turn over of staff.

[Biffsticksuperhero]

Aaaand not any more.

An actual shortage and they’d be hiring still and giving £50k joining bonuses.

Simply hiring people doesn’t mean there’s a particularly aggressive shortage, just the turn over of staff.

The majors are beginning to sponsor people to fly. They’d only do that if they’re desperate.

[corporal klinger]

There is a shortage of experienced captains worldwide, a huge shortage in fact. Airlines are unable to expand and aircraft are on the ground, these are the facts as it is right now.
Now, to call this a pilot shortage, as always isn’t correct. Because it does not translate into a need for inexperienced first officers/cadets etc.. so, as long as we differentiate between these two categories than we can absolutely agree that yes, we have a big big shortage.

Which airlines in Asia or Europe do have that "huge" and "big big" shortage of experienced captains?

[menekse]

The majors are beginning to sponsor people to fly. They’d only do that if they’re desperate.
Do they also sponsor visas for UK?
Or license conversions?
UK companies have a limited pool of UK citizens
It's a different story than the rest of the Europe

[Biffsticksuperhero]

Do they also sponsor visas for UK?
Or license conversions?
UK companies have a limited pool of UK citizens
It's a different story than the rest of the Europe


yes they do. Look at virgin.

[menekse]

yes they do. Look at virgin.
Hold a current UK Class One Medical and United Kingdom or European Union Flight Crew License (ATPL) issued by the UK CAA at the date of joining
not sure what the bold means
Also they ask at least 500 hours current on type, doesn't sound that they are desperate for pilots

[Biffsticksuperhero]

Hold a current UK Class One Medical and United Kingdom or European Union Flight Crew License (ATPL) issued by the UK CAA at the date of joining
not sure what the bold means
Also they ask at least 500 hours current on type, doesn't sound that they are desperate for pilots

the fact the UK is depleted of UK licensed pilots, they’re having to look further afield.

airlines who don’t normally take low houred guys are so and starting MPL schemes.

maybe your definitions of desperate is different to others.

They’re lowering the bar, they’d only do that if they had to.

[menekse]

the fact the UK is depleted of UK licensed pilots, they’re having to look further afield.

airlines who don’t normally take low houred guys are so and starting MPL schemes.

maybe your definitions of desperate is different to others.

They’re lowering the bar, they’d only do that if they had to.
I am still not sure what they mean by European ATPL issued by the UK CAA at the date of joining.
Can I apply with my EASA ATPL which was not issued by UK CAA?
I don't know where the bar was before, 500 hours on type and current sounds fair

[aerodestination]

Airlines not hiring might as well be a sign of a shortage. I know for sure that several airlines did not hire more people earlier this year because they simply had no instructors to train them, nor simulator capacity. A lot of airlines have shortages this summer but agressively hiring now would result in even bigger short term shortages because of the training.

My airline has already started hiring new direct entry FO with TR starting dates as early as september anticipating on shortages for 2024. Especially concidiring a couple of major airlines that will need a lot more people upcoming months resulting in an exodus for LOCOs.

[AIMINGHIGH123]

Sorry I’m going to echo what others have said.

Defiantly a shortage of Captains, EU land not 100% sure. Uk definitely.

Virgin dropped to 500hrs on time for RHS. I mean that’s 1 year at RYR and off you go to long haul ops.

What is also the issue is training capacity. Only so many SIMs, so many trainers etc. They don’t have hundreds of SIMs just sat waiting.

There will never be mass shortage of entry pilots but certainly experienced.

Like I said 6-12 months ago in UK for anyone who had 737 or 320 time a lot opened up.
A mate of mine applied and went to 4 airlines/assessments in UK and a ME carrier.

Only 1 UK airline came back as a no. Never seen it like that before.

Have you actually gone for assessments/ had your CV looked at?

It’s one thing having experience but you still need to do homework even just applying. My aviation CV is tailored just to that. Compared to when I applied to jobs during COVID it’s completely different.

Do you have good experience?
Sorry to say the path you choose can dictate the airlines that are interested. I know a couple of guys from my flight school that went and got experience outside of Europe. It hasn’t helped them one bit, if anything made it harder for them.

I was once told yes take any flying job with the caveat of long term plan. Your first job can dictate to some degree where you will go in aviation.

[menekse]

Sorry I’m going to echo what others have said.

Do you have good experience?
Sorry to say the path you choose can dictate the airlines that are interested. I know a couple of guys from my flight school that went and got experience outside of Europe. It hasn’t helped them one bit, if anything made it harder for them.

I was once told yes take any flying job with the caveat of long term plan. Your first job can dictate to some degree where you will go in aviation.

I left Air Force for a Gulfstream job opportunity in the desert
Had in mind to make some cash and return to Europe
I made a small fortune but I am still stuck in the desert
Sorry to say too, but it seems a P2F in a A320 or B737 operator gives you more chances for a job in Europe
In some cases knowing the right people is enough to get a job
HR people may think Jetstream and Gulfstream are pretty much the same airplane

[Pilot2/b]

A lot of us UK skippers are now looking at part time options for S24.
The thought of another busy summer fills a lot of skippers with dread! (from our chats)
Shortage of experienced pilots is approaching…

[Bravo Zulu]

One UK airline is asking Captains back that had previously been paid off to retire early!

Most likely as they cant train enough over winter - new pilots and seat swaps etc

[Vokes55]

Plenty of experienced FOs turning down upgrade opportunities in favour of staying on a fleet, working pattern, base and/or seniority position (high seniority FO vs low seniority CP) that suits their lifestyle better.

[HeadUpTheTailpipe]

Me thinks the pilot shortage is coming. Focussed on Captain to start obviously. Plenty of sausage factories pumping out low hour FOs, so that's not where the action is.

It seems the UK is first out of the blocks in this region.

[menekse]

From a quick search, I saw that the ''good'' companies in EU ask to speak the local language or be type rated. Doesn't seem to have any problem finding exact what they look for

[Harry Grout]

The UK has screwed itself. The need to hold a UK licence and have the right to live/work has removed so many potential applicants from the "talent pool". The Brexit Bonfire of all the agreements will be put out very soon as the chickens come home to roost. Have a look at the UK "pilot licence holders by age and sex" report from the CAA. The numbers literally drop off a cliff when pilots hit 60 as so many didn't stay active or left the industry. Extending to 67 won't solve this mess, they're on their yacht in the Med.

[CW247]

From a quick search, I saw that the ''good'' companies in EU ask to speak the local language or be type rated. Doesn't seem to have any problem finding exact what they look for

But they are sucking up pilots at the not so good airlines. My previous company was losing an average of 20 FOs a month during 2022 and this summer. All headed to legacies where they speak the local language.

[level_change]

Let me come here to spread some negativity on the subject. :ugh: The EU still has no shortage as long as very experienced rated pilots show up to assessments where they dont even pay your hotel, let alone a travel allowance, just to put you through bull*** psycho tests and questionaires and checking your bull*** tolerance. If you pass the initiation ritual, you will be offered a worthless contract that your employer will change as he pleases and which contains your obligations exclusively. If you happen to be non type rated, you will sign a totally overpriced training bond that makes you a complete slave for the next 3-5 years, even though you already faintly know how terrible the lifestyle is going to be - no matter the promises. You can look forward to do training for free in most companies, regardless of your prior experience, you are back to zero seniority. At some point someone starts to feel a little bit sorry and you will receive your first compensation usually from some offshore accounts - 100% untaxed and of course, tax is your own obligation after all, but the salary in gross is now less than you netted a decade prior on an employment contract in a real country. "Because we are a company based in "insert random tax haven" and we fly ACMI for the most horrible outfits worldwide in (insert shi**hole in north africa or the middle east) , we expect you to move to anywhere in your next roster period - no guarantees, we trust you understand the requirements of the business. For sure we will provide you a 3rd class hotel for the 3 weeks that you will stay away from your family, in which you will fly the maximum legal hours, if you still believe in the law, that is.
Story of my life

[LimaVictor]

right on man!!!
Exactly what's going on with me as well :rolleyes:

[menekse]

Klm is Hiring again.

https://careers.klm.com/KLM/job/Schiphol-Centrum-Verkeersvlieger-2024/779672202/

You need B2 Dutch. We are really short of crew!

Short of crew but need fluency in local language
If you mean this pilot shortage...

[Captain Kaboom]

Let me come here to spread some negativity on the subject. :ugh: The EU still has no shortage as long as very experienced rated pilots show up to assessments where they dont even pay your hotel, let alone a travel allowance, just to put you through bull*** psycho tests and questionaires and checking your bull*** tolerance. If you pass the initiation ritual, you will be offered a worthless contract that your employer will change as he pleases and which contains your obligations exclusively. If you happen to be non type rated, you will sign a totally overpriced training bond that makes you a complete slave for the next 3-5 years, even though you already faintly know how terrible the lifestyle is going to be - no matter the promises. You can look forward to do training for free in most companies, regardless of your prior experience, you are back to zero seniority. At some point someone starts to feel a little bit sorry and you will receive your first compensation usually from some offshore accounts - 100% untaxed and of course, tax is your own obligation after all, but the salary in gross is now less than you netted a decade prior on an employment contract in a real country. "Because we are a company based in "insert random tax haven" and we fly ACMI for the most horrible outfits worldwide in (insert shi**hole in north africa or the middle east) , we expect you to move to anywhere in your next roster period - no guarantees, we trust you understand the requirements of the business. For sure we will provide you a 3rd class hotel for the 3 weeks that you will stay away from your family, in which you will fly the maximum legal hours, if you still believe in the law, that is.
Story of my life


Right on! this sums it all up! 5 days off per month and due to the unwillingness of rostering only three days at home. A net income of €2700 as airline captain after you dealt with the legal issues of fake self employment and if you are 5 days sick but worked the other 26 days of the month, no payment at all. Europe ain't Europe anymore and I can't make a respectable income there anymore. I literally make 6 times as much in the ME.
And governments don't seem to care, we are no longer the Western world with high standards unfortunately.

[SaulGoodman]

Right on! this sums it all up! 5 days off per month and due to the unwillingness of rostering only three days at home. A net income of €2700 as airline captain after you dealt with the legal issues of fake self employment and if you are 5 days sick but worked the other 26 days of the month, no payment at all. Europe ain't Europe anymore and I can't make a respectable income there anymore. I literally make 6 times as much in the ME.
And governments don't seem to care, we are no longer the Western world with high standards unfortunately.

2700 nett as CPT. I made that captaining a VFR SET. You can make triple that sitting in the right seat working for a decent airline. If you are only chasing bottom feeding ACMI wet lease operations from Eastern Europe then please stop complaining. Just ask yourself why you did go there in the first place. Enjoy the Middle East! You’ll love it!

[CW247]

Why are we comparing Apples with Oranges? For 2700 NET, I assume you are with an ACMI run by one of the Baltic based Mafias? They told you it was seasonal employment in the beginning with only a retainer payment during the winter. You knew it from the start. You can't expect them to pay 10k all year round, they don't have the customers do justify it. I know at least 4 non legacy carriers hiring left seat on full year round salary of more than 130k per year but you have to pay tax. Which I suppose is the reason you were lured by the mafias in the first place?

[Captain Kaboom]

Nothing of that. After years of flying business aviation I transitioned to airlines and this outfit gave me a DEC. Nothing seasonal, 900 hours per year flying for state airlines.
And if you read carefully, I'm not employed by any East European outfit. I'm employed in the Middle East, couldn't do this nonsense too long.

I still think it is disgraceful you are kept out of the social system and are not even entitled to retirement or healthcare when the time comes.

[menekse]

I recently passed the assessment of a nice European outfit.
I was informed that I will stay in the pool for the summer season as for now they will start with the rated pilots.
This doesn’t sound like shortage at all

[Prob30Tempo TSRA]

There's a shortfall of experienced captains - that's for certain

[F3LD]

I recently passed the assessment of a nice European outfit.
I was informed that I will stay in the pool for the summer season as for now they will start with the rated pilots.
This doesn’t sound like shortage at all


probably no capacity regarding simulator and trainer for line training. Having rated and experienced pilots will shorten the training phase.
Atleast thats what is happening within our group.