CL-215 down in Greece

[Compton3fox]

Sadly, A Greek firefighting plane crashed while performing a mission on the island of Evia, state-run ERT reported Tuesday. The broadcaster showed images of the plane crashing into a ravine in the Karystos area of the island after dropping water on a wildfire.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1683813650132357122

[andrasz]

Sadly another firefighting accident, whole sequence captured on video:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1683819913964576768

[treadigraph]

Part hidden by the TV logo but looks like something clipped off right wing? Something flashes as though tumbling away?

Edit: right hand float breaks away, right wing leading edge possibly damaged as well... Such a sad loss of life.

Twitter link from other thread shows more clearly.

https://twitter.com/Bilots_Bet/status/1683813650132357122?s=20

[andrasz]

Edit: right hand float breaks away, right wing leading edge possibly damaged as well...

Yes, clipped the large tree just after the start of the drop.

[El Grifo]

In Nikiana right now. Zero issues here.
Was admiring a double flypast of a Canadair CL-215 last evening
Spoke to a Greek Mil C130 driver an hour ago.
Tells me it was the selfsame aircraft.

Bugger !!!

El Grifo

[Georg1na]

Would a mild clip like that render the aircraft uncontrolable? The wing seems to be all there?

[Cough]

Does the right aileron stay up after the wing tip clip?

[fluglehrer]

https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/firefighting/firefighting-plane-crashes-on-greek-island-of-evia/
july 25,2023

[andrasz]

Would a mild clip like that render the aircraft uncontrollable?

If it jams the aileron full up as suggested below, then yes.

Does the right aileron stay up after the wing tip clip?

Hard to see, could be the case. Left aileron is clearly full up, I cannot discern any rudder.

[Lonewolf_50]

Drop load, right turn, and then we see it go down.
(Wonder if an engine quit on them, or rolled back, during the turn?)
Tough to assess from that view. Any idea of the wind direction?

[OuchSpud]

I would have thought it flyable afther that clip. It seems to me that the clip knocked it into a steeper bank and scubbed some air speed off, into a attitude that was unrecoverable at that altitude.

[Chesty Morgan]

Drop load, right turn, and then we see it go down.
(Wonder if an engine quite on them during the turn?)
Tough to assess from that view. Any idea of the wind direction.
Might have something to do with the right wing versus trees rather than an engine failure.

[skadi]

Might have something to do with the right wing versus trees rather than an engine failure.

It looks like the right wing float departed after the tree strike

skadi

[Lonewolf_50]

I had to run it a couple more times to see what you referred to. Nice catch.

[Auxtank]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhIpeH8gLpM

Looks like float off as skadi says and perhaps aileron damaged deflected up sending it into right turn and unrecoverable.

RIP

[atakacs]

Clipped that tree with the right wing, tore off the right pontoon (possibly jammed/bent the right aileron deflected upward), and put the plane into a hard skid - all at low airspeed. Couldn't roll left, and hard left rudder would have slipped the plane lower. He ran out of options pretty fast. RIP

[J.O.]

Far too many 215 crews are dying while being overly aggressive with their drop runs.

[clareprop]

Does the right aileron stay up after the wing tip clip?

I wondered exactly the same . Tragic incident.

[albatross]

Sad news in any case.
RIP

[sycamore]

Right wingtip float departed ,and appears to have full aileron up,possibly jammed,causing the overbank.....?

[kcockayne]

Very sad & very heroic - while trying to help other people. Maximum respect.

[DDG-37]

RIP Airmen

[RichardJones]

R.I.P guys. You did your best.
I think it maybe time to start rethinking the pilot selection for the firefighting role. Would it not be better to get current agricultural pilots in to do the job? Pilots with low flying experience around hill country etc. Gleaned over a lifetime. In some cases.
I put it to you it would be better to train current agricultural pilots, masters in the art of low flying BTW, to fly the water bombers. This would be more sensible than teach these military pilots the art of low flying. Why? Well it's their job. Some have been doing ag flying for decades and kept themselves alive. They must be doing something right.
Aggressive pilots looking for trouble aren't really suited to the role IMHO. The grave yards are full of them.
Another problem is currency. How can these pilots remain current, or keep your hand in, when they are only wheeled out when there are fires?
Just my 2. Cents worth.

[meleagertoo]

Very sad & very heroic - while trying to help other people. Maximum respect.
Sad yes, but get real!
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.

[Dopsonj]

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/wildfires-greece-burn-days-more-tourists-expected-fly-out-2023-07-25/
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1280/2agrye22w5omhflglkadalphxe_ec44bb782f5210f64f4df1d3681c5d0d6 f05fffa.jpeg

[kcockayne]

Sad yes, but get real!
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
I was simply trying to pay my respects to two people who put others before themselves - not making any comments about how well or badly they flew the aircraft ! In my mind, their actions in those circumstances were heroic , mistakes or otherwise. It is a very sad day when you can’t pay your respects to two people who died in the course of trying to save the lives of others without someone trying to devalue those peoples’ efforts !

[RichardJones]

I was simply trying to pay my respects to two people who put others before themselves - not making any comments about how well or badly they flew the aircraft ! In my mind, their actions in those circumstances were heroic , mistakes or otherwise. It is a very sad day when you can’t pay your respects to two people who died in the course of trying to save the lives of others without someone trying to devalue those peoples’ efforts !

Totally agree with your post.

[unworry]

Clipped that tree with the right wing, tore off the right pontoon (possibly jammed/bent the right aileron deflected upward), and put the plane into a hard skid - all at low airspeed. Couldn't roll left, and hard left rudder would have slipped the plane lower. He ran out of options pretty fast. RIP

for attribution:
https://twitter.com/LeifMcGrief/status/1683822165215399936

[cncpc]

R.I.P guys. You did your best.
I think it maybe time to start rethinking the pilot selection for the firefighting role. Would it not be better to get current agricultural pilots in to do the job? Pilots with low flying experience around hill country etc. Gleaned over a lifetime. In some cases.
I put it to you it would be better to train current agricultural pilots, masters in the art of low flying BTW, to fly the water bombers. This would be more sensible than teach these military pilots the art of low flying. Why? Well it's their job. Some have been doing ag flying for decades and kept themselves alive. They must be doing something right.
Aggressive pilots looking for trouble aren't really suited to the role IMHO. The grave yards are full of them.
Another problem is currency. How can these pilots remain current, or keep your hand in, when they are only wheeled out when there are fires?
Just my 2. Cents worth.
No. Is the short answer.

[cncpc]

Sad yes, but get real!
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” - Teddy Roosevelt

[Diff Tail Shim]

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” - Teddy Roosevelt
Whom gives a cus what a politician says. Even being military bred. No time for such posts. RIP to the aviators that died. Nobody on here knows how many drops and replen runs they did or P1 or P2 was the PF. CVR will tell you that. If it was working.

[Bksmithca]

Sad yes, but get real!
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
meleagertoo. According to this thread over on the military side the pilots where both members of the Greek Air Force. Makes me question your comment and view point. https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/653880-hellenic-airforce-pilots-killed-crash-while-fighting-fires.html

[FullOppositeRudder]

For a moment I though the video was a replay of a similar tragic event (was it in Italy last year?). The circumstances are disturbingly similar.

Most - if not all of the pilots of the fire bombers I work with have extensive AG experience, and it's really needed in these kind of ops. If you are low enough to clip a tree, you have misread the terrain or were unsighted in the approach to the drop, or you are operating outside of your reserves of experience.

The wind strength and direction can be ascertained by the smoke coming off the fire. It looks to be fairly strong and it will be very gusty as well because the wind is curling over the ridge on the far side of the outbreak; that's also indicated by the actual fire behaviour. Is this a "clutching hand" scenario as well? Perhaps not; there appear to be other factors at work here here and they all conspired to bring about this tragic outcome.

[ehwatezedoing]

Say what you want it was a fairly agressive drop none the less and on a particular spot with only…. Trees to save.
Fatigue might be a huge factor.

[Mach E Avelli]

Sad yes, but get real!
What the digamma is "heroic" about screwing up a drop as badly as that? Sorry, but putting it realistically and bluntly let's not get all mawkish about this - that accident was caused by nothng but mishandling and misjudgement.
Yet another example of firefighting aviation still being carried out in a quite unnecessarily aggressive and gung-ho manner.
Every time we have a tragedy like this, it seems that the armchair analysts are quick to condemn the pilots.
How about instead of gratuitous comments like "it should have been flyable" and "military pilots lack training, are 'gung ho', unsuited to the task" etc , we wait for the expert investigators to do their job? Part of the investigation will likely include recommendations for future aerial fire fighting.
Meantime, show some respect, please..

[andrasz]

meleagertoo. According to this thread over on the military side the pilots where both members of the Greek Air Force. Makes me question your comment and view point. https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/653880-hellenic-airforce-pilots-killed-crash-while-fighting-fires.html

What difference does it make that they were AF pilots ? Sad yes, but unfortunately after watching the video anyone with real flying experience will concur with the conclusions of meleagertoo.

[arf23]

perhaps water bombers should be the first zero-crewed aircraft, it's probably the most dangerous flying job out there so could work well for remote control. I imagine there's a lot of on the spot judgment required as to when exactly to drop the retardant but excellent optics but especially for this should help, or have the drop controlled by a controller bird dog plane flying above the scene..

[RichardJones]

For a moment I though the video was a replay of a similar tragic event (was it in Italy last year?). The circumstances are disturbingly similar.

Most - if not all of the pilots of the fire bombers I work with have extensive AG experience, and it's really needed in these kind of ops. If you are low enough to clip a tree, you have misread the terrain or were unsighted in the approach to the drop, or you are operating outside of your reserves of experience.

The wind strength and direction can be ascertained by the smoke coming off the fire. It looks to be fairly strong and it will be very gusty as well because the wind is curling over the ridge on the far side of the outbreak; that's also indicated by the actual fire behaviour. Is this a "clutching hand" scenario as well? Perhaps not; there appear to be other factors at work here here and they all conspired to bring about this tragic outcome.

Agreed. Good post.
Just like too add, "Target Fixation " can be also be a trap for the unwary, carrying out out low level operations.

[theo_xydias_youtube]

Hello from Greece i saw the crash live there was no way to save the plane. if the right wing didn't hit the tree it was a dope drop. I couldn't sleep later when i learned that the wife of one is pregnat 3 monthsSquadron Leader (I) Christos Moulas, 34 years old and co-pilot, Second Lieutenant (I) Pericles Stefanidis, 27 years old. where the people that died on the 215

[Cedrik]

R.I.P guys. You did your best.
I think it maybe time to start rethinking the pilot selection for the firefighting role. Would it not be better to get current agricultural pilots in to do the job? Pilots with low flying experience around hill country etc. Gleaned over a lifetime. In some cases.
I put it to you it would be better to train current agricultural pilots, masters in the art of low flying BTW, to fly the water bombers. This would be more sensible than teach these military pilots the art of low flying. Why? Well it's their job. Some have been doing ag flying for decades and kept themselves alive. They must be doing something right.
Aggressive pilots looking for trouble aren't really suited to the role IMHO. The grave yards are full of them.
Another problem is currency. How can these pilots remain current, or keep your hand in, when they are only wheeled out when there are fires?
Just my 2. Cents worth.

Seems countries themselves who select the pilots to do the job have other criterion for pilots than low level experience. A lot of Ag pilots do fly fires, the supply of pilots who have extensive mountain flying and low level experience is drying up.

[IronRoad]

Given that it appears to be a CL215, does that mean one with round motors?

[theo_xydias_youtube]

Also to mention that the fire on this spot was low germination there was no need to drop there, unless they told the boys there because they were there. Another tragic that was told now by the commander was , that after the drop they were supposed to head for a last refuel. Now whatever we say they won't come back also, as happens here in Greece they will say that the accident was a human mistake as always. (it was but we don't know yet why they went there)

[Cedrik]

perhaps water bombers should be the first zero-crewed aircraft, it's probably the most dangerous flying job out there so could work well for remote control. I imagine there's a lot of on the spot judgment required as to when exactly to drop the retardant but excellent optics but especially for this should help, or have the drop controlled by a controller bird dog plane flying above the scene..

Immensely impractical, the judgment, constant reappraisal and decision making done many times during a drop could not be done from a flat screen. Extensive crew training and currency training is required, not all countries are going to do that.

[DroneDog]

Terribly sad, losing their lives whilst saving others.

Slightly sharpened image.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x497/1_2e70557d0b7247b5887315df80d5012ead31e0ef.png
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/980x497/2_motion_f6aac6bded4e2d682c8581c2006f9a871836baf3.png

[compressor stall]

It looks like the RH aileron is in the correct sense there. It appears shaded. A few seconds later when it's on knife edge, the aileron doesn't look like its missing?

I wonder if the whole AOA of the wing was stuffed from the impact. Or huge drag from the underside of the wing as it was opened up.

RIP.

Edit, closer look at the clearer video above there's a weird black shadow / artefact in the video on the leading edge. Damage, and too much drag?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/520x556/screenshot_2023_07_26_at_8_48_51_pm_0a2ac50a44b2233d1cb6e76c 3f19a0856a3ea343.png

[DroneDog]

It looks like the RH aileron is in the correct sense there. It appears shaded. A few seconds later when it's on knife edge, the aileron doesn't look like its missing?

I wonder if the whole AOA of the wing was stuffed from the impact. Or huge drag from the underside of the wing as it was opened up.

RIP.

Edit, closer look at the clearer video above there's a weird black shadow / artefact in the video on the leading edge. Damage, and too much drag?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/520x556/screenshot_2023_07_26_at_8_48_51_pm_0a2ac50a44b2233d1cb6e76c 3f19a0856a3ea343.png

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/441x355/sharpen_2_motion_5f71a9c49bdcf7c101b0ef39dd335a4664a552ac.pn g

Pushing the zoom


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1764x1420/sharpen_2scale_4_00x_5ae65aadd2cdef519ddd19e909217cdb8ba1b24 5.jpg

[fdr]

outboard LE damage will result in both a rolling moment and a yaw that with a high bank angle will result in the flight path angle reducing, The sharpened image may introduce artefacts, but it appears the left aileron is consistent with a full left roll input. The rudder looks neutral, which is a shame, the AOA will be quite high still, the greatest roll authority is rudder and asymmetric thrust. Aileron is just your normal roll input. The additional authority takes a time to become effective, and once the bank angle has become extreme, recovery time is very short. We have had too many losses in this area to not have a rethink or review of our tactics. Nothing is easy in this operation, except having a bad day.

[jossurf]

I do not like the looks of the wings dihedral in the sharpened photo.
I agree it is difficult to see…
Could the a/c have suffered prior stress to the RH wing(spar)?
Just my 2 bits worth…

[albatross]

No. Is the short answer.

Well said.

I wonder how many hours some of the pontificating “Ex Sperts” have fighting fire.

As one of my instructors warned: “It’s that one tall tree in the forest that’s going to get you!”. Good advice especially those grey dead, branchless SOBs referred to as “Chicos” in Quebec.

All my fire fighting time is in helicopters..did a lot of fixed wing fire patrol, bird dog and moving fire crews with aircraft on floats.

[Cedrik]

Well said.
I wonder how many hours some of the pontificating “Ex Sperts” have fighting fire.
.

How many years have you been flying fires?

Me,15 years fires, 43 Ag.

Still you don't have to be an expert to comment, all enlightened comments welcome.

[RichardJones]

Well said.

I wonder how many hours some of the pontificating “Ex Sperts” have fighting fire.

As one of my instructors warned: “It’s that one tall tree in the forest that’s going to get you!”. Good advice especially those grey dead, branchless SOBs referred to as “Chicos” in Quebec.

All my fire fighting time is in helicopters..did a lot of fixed wing fire patrol, bird dog and moving fire crews with aircraft on floats.

Me?

20k Total time. Ag flying at 21. Retired 31, before I killed myself. Bush flying, then corporate. Finished up on 4 engined heavy jets. Left school at 15. Started young, see?. I was an aviator, not an academic, by any stretch of the imagination.

Not being critical of anyone. We are all human and we all make mistakes. I just made a suggestion as to what the back ground or past experience of fire fighting pilots should be, or include in my view.. I also gave an explanation as to my reasoning.

Have a look at this clip. Great skill and bravery demonstrated. https://www.facebook.com/reel/1698189313948357?s=yWDuG2&fs=e

[DaveReidUK]

Given that it appears to be a CL215, does that mean one with round motors?

Yes, it was.

Though had it been built (or converted) with turboprops, it would still technically be a CL-215.

[helispotter]

Immensely impractical, the judgment, constant reappraisal and decision making done many times during a drop could not be done from a flat screen. Extensive crew training and currency training is required, not all countries are going to do that.

I think arf23 has a valid point. It wouldn't have to be limited to monitoring a single flat screen. In fact, it should be possible to give an RPV operator an even more panoramic view than sitting in a cockpit through use of multiple cameras and multiple 'flat screens'. What is more, if 'full self driving' can be done with cars, same approach should be possible using multiple camera vision analysis to assist the RPV pilots remain within operating limit of the aircraft.

Now, the cost of implementing this, and likely developing an aircraft for such work from ground up, that might be what stops any such initiative.

[laardvark]

I'm wondering what the airspeed was at the point where the video begins .
the aircraft appears to have a high rate of descent (or rising terrain ) just before the drop .
the nose was coming up but the ROD was not arrested .
i have a lot of time survey flying in light twins at or below 150' . Mountains can get very tricky ,
had several close calls myself . There are very few rules of thumb in this scenario , it largely comes down to
eyeball judgement . I would still say birdstrike is the biggest risk , i had at least ten .

[Pilot DAR]

Posters,

Could we discuss this sad event as professionals, without the willy waving, and snarky responses please. I know that some pilots post here with excellent experience, and others are speculative and inquisitive, we can all be respectful to each other...

Pilot DAR

[Ivor_Bigunn]

Maybe this image version is a little clearer?

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/520x556/forestfire1_a23543c942bc9553533974861fc6e1a0a0e53689.jpg


IB

[70 Mustang]

The expanded images appear to show some significant damage to the leading edge of the wing that hit the trees. Perhaps some further panels extended into the airflow on the bottom side, acting like a giant scoop, causing great drag as well as loss of airflow, pulling the aircraft right and severely reduced lift, maybe even negative, or a positive downforce on that side at an already slow speed and further back pressure in a very human reaction to the continued sink with little room to maneuver.

[Compton3fox]

Juan Browne's Anaylsis of the accident...
https://youtu.be/z6BlaXqmQLA

[DaveReidUK]

Juan Browne's Anaylsis of the accident...
https://youtu.be/z6BlaXqmQLA

I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I see that someone in the comments pointed out that the RH wing L/E was damaged.

Had JB not made any reference to that ?

[Compton3fox]

I haven't had time to watch it yet, but I see that someone in the comments pointed out that the RH wing L/E was damaged.

Had JB not made any reference to that ?
Yes David, he does reference it.
If there are any Air Racers on here from the 80's and 90's, you will be aware of 2 incidents. One involving a fence post and the other, a buzzard and in both cases, the L/E and Wing Damage was substantial but both A/C remained controllable. Difficult to see from the video here but the damage looked no worse than the above two incidents. Of course, we don't know what else the L/E Strike may have damaged but based on what I saw during the races, L/Es can take a substantial hit and not render the A/C uncontrollable.

[pilotmike]

….pulling the aircraft left ....
To the right.

[cncpc]

Juan Browne's Anaylsis of the accident...
https://youtu.be/z6BlaXqmQLA
This is a question for pilots who actually fly this aircraft.
Juan discusses the lack of left rudder input. That is in the context of whether there was an alternate means of picking the right wing up. Juan implies that had the rudder been applied, that might have worked. My question is whether setting up asymmetric power would also have complimented that rudder control input.
I've had occasion to do that in an Aztec years ago in BC, and it saved the aircraft, which was in a delicate situation with a popped Lister latch and some pitch control issues coming from the door being a few inches out into the airflow and blanking the right elevator to some extent. It started to roll on final with the addition of the last notch of flap.

[FullOppositeRudder]

Juan discusses the lack of left rudder input. That is in the context of whether there was an alternate means of picking the right wing up. Juan implies that had the rudder been applied, that might have worked.

I've been wondering the same thing. I'm puzzled by the significant amount of right rudder almost from the time of impact with the tree causing the aircraft to be in a skidding turn. However it's corrected about the time aircraft is in centre of the blue, and you can see the change in excessive yaw almost immediately. Would carrying through to a boot full of left rudder have helped in picking up the right wing? It's unfair to perhaps even ask the question. The startle effect was enormous by this time, they had but a very few seconds to analyse and react where we've had days. And most importantly, we don't know whether the aileron circuit was damaged or restricted by the departure of the float and other possible complications from the tree strike.

One other possible factor returns to haunt me. The wind is coming over the ridge they are turning to avoid. The right wing is possibly still down in 'dirty' and turbulent air, the left wing probably much less so. Indeed it may well be hit with the full force of the air mass as it comes over the top of the ridge. It's hard to comprehend these situations unless you've been down in amongst the rocks as can happen in adventurous ridge soaring. I've seen 15 knots vanish off the ASI in Blanik in a few seconds as we popped over a spur in the main ridge and encountered the resultant curl over. Happily we had around 60 knots at the start, but it's not a nice feeling when it hits you.

My final observation is that it's very hard to pick the variations in terrain from any reasonable altitude. The complexity of the terrain in this situation would not have been fully evident until they were committed to the drop, There may have been a prior pass to evaluate these factors - we just don't know. But it all demonstrates that safe aerial firefighting is a very demanding activity, and experience gained from a long history of low level flying in relatively benign operations ie AG work, is surely a prerequisite for getting down in amongst the smoke, heat and turbulence of direct fire attack, where target fixation cannot be allowed to take over from other complex considerations.

[DaveReidUK]

Difficult to see from the video here but the damage looked no worse than the above two incidents. Of course, we don't know what else the L/E Strike may have damaged but based on what I saw during the races, L/Es can take a substantial hit and not render the A/C uncontrollable.

The damage to the L/E visible in the video looks consistent with the effect on the wing structure of the float being violently ripped off. It's worth noting that we can't see the underside of the wing at any point in the video.

[DroneDog]

Original video enhanced and upscaled to 4k plus slow motion & zoom

https://youtu.be/hvd5AFCKby0

p.s. Don't forget to force Youtube to play the video in its highest quality 2160p, Youtube will sometimes automatically defer to a lower quality.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/362x471/screenshot_2023_08_01_at_07_44_13_3ba3ef2fb5094e260bc90aa1a6 33a6055fa9873a.png

[fdr]

The damage to the L/E visible in the video looks consistent with the effect on the wing structure of the float being violently ripped off. It's worth noting that we can't see the underside of the wing at any point in the video.

the underside of the wing is not an overly sensitive area to the performance of the wing section, but it is taking tensile loads in normal loading. The LE being damaged, for the span in the images would be a severe impact to section performance, with a very large increase in Cd, reduced AOA for stall, and a reduced CL/AOA slope. The yaw and loss of lift causing additional roll is going to need everything that is in primary and secondary yaw and roll controls to achieve any mitigation, and there is no certainty that it is survivable at all. A P3C Orion overcooked an "overhead set heading" years ago, and blew 3 of 6 D sections off the wings, leaving half the wing with just a flat front face, despite over boosting an overpowered aircraft with 70%+ blown wing, the plane bled off energy rapidly, and lost ~250kts doing a 270 degree turn, and parked in the water in a reef lagoon. The LE controls much of the low speed performance of any airfoil.

If the crew have not had the opportunity to have advanced handling training, a stressful condition of an unexpected emergency with a critical performance and handling issue is challenging. Rudder and asymmetric power may have assisted, the rates look like the derivatives might get close, but the use of asymmetry comes with a compounding drag problem, so performance is going bad in all events.

[Pilot DAR]

the underside of the wing is not an overly sensitive area to the performance of the wing section

I speculate entirely about the damage to the wing resulting from the wing tip float being ripped off (let alone probably the leading edge of the wing also striking the tree). It is possible that when the wing tip float ripped off, it tore skin from the underside of the wing too. It would not take too much ripped wing skin, peeled back and flapping, to cause immense drag, which is well out the wing as well. I cannot speak for the CL215/415, as I do not know it's structure, but I know that other smaller amphibious flying boats are designed such that you can rip off a wingtip float without damaging the wing. I have found this to be true on mine :uhoh:.

In any case, that was a remarkably short time for the crew to reassess the possibility that control might be maintained....

[DaveReidUK]

I speculate entirely about the damage to the wing resulting from the wing tip float being ripped off (let alone probably the leading edge of the wing also striking the tree). It is possible that when the wing tip float ripped off, it tore skin from the underside of the wing too. It would not take too much ripped wing skin, peeled back and flapping, to cause immense drag, which is well out the wing as well.

Yes, that was what I was alluding to as a possibility when the float was ripped off.

[DroneDog]

For those like myself unfamiliar with this aircraft this gves a good idea of he beast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuLk5hXMRZY

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

I speculate entirely about the damage to the wing resulting from the wing tip float being ripped off (let alone probably the leading edge of the wing also striking the tree). It is possible that when the wing tip float ripped off, it tore skin from the underside of the wing too. It would not take too much ripped wing skin, peeled back and flapping, to cause immense drag, which is well out the wing as well. I cannot speak for the CL215/415, as I do not know it's structure, but I know that other smaller amphibious flying boats are designed such that you can rip off a wingtip float without damaging the wing. I have found this to be true on mine :uhoh:.

In any case, that was a remarkably short time for the crew to reassess the possibility that control might be maintained....
The upscaled video just above your post seems to show a ragged edge of the leading edge, suggesting that it was indeed damaged as you suggest. That would definitely not aid controllability.

[DaveReidUK]

For those like myself unfamiliar with this aircraft this gives a good idea of the beast.

Though not entirely representative of the accident aircraft, which was the earlier piston-engined, non-EFIS variant.

[Cedrik]

Though not entirely representative of the accident aircraft, which was the earlier piston-engined, non-EFIS variant.
The aircraft was converted to Turbine power, not a lot different to a 415

[DaveReidUK]

The aircraft was converted to Turbine power, not a lot different to a 415

No, it wasn't - I challenge you to find a photo of the aircraft in question (1055) with turboprops.

[Liffy 1M]

The aircraft was converted to Turbine power, not a lot different to a 415
Here is the accident aircraft in 2022:
https://flic.kr/p/2ngVxEA

[treadigraph]

You can see clearly in the video that it still has radial cowlings.

I don't believe any of Greece's original 215s were converted to turbine 215T standard, they also have some CL-415s in service and Viking/DHC built 515s on order - I should imagine the remaining CL-215s will be disposed of as the new aircraft arrive.

[DaveReidUK]

Interesting article from a few years ago about the issues involved in keeping the older Greek CL-215s flying:

A race against time for Greece’s Canadairs (https://www.ekathimerini.com/in-depth/special-report/229099/a-race-against-time-for-greeces-canadairs/)