Electric air service next year.

[Maoraigh1]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/football-club-tycoon-dale-vince-launches-worlds-first-electric-airline-with-flights-from-edinburgh
(I was unable to and this to Hyundai Australian thread.)

[DaveReidUK]

https://news.stv.tv/east-central/football-club-tycoon-dale-vince-launches-worlds-first-electric-airline-with-flights-from-edinburgh
(I was unable to and this to Hyundai Australian thread.)

Hydrogen-electric powered services will start in 2025 at the earliest. Before then, Ecojet will be fuelling their Twin Otter the same way everybody else does, with good old kerosene.

Ecojet airline aims to fly hydrogen-electric aircraft from 2025 (https://newatlas.com/aircraft/ecojet-airline-hydrogen-electric/)

[tdracer]

To add to DR's post:
Not only has no one certified a H2-Electric aircraft for commercial, the certification standards/rules have not even been established. Storage of large amounts of liquid or high pressure H2 in the proximity of paying passengers is a far from trivial problem.
Add to that the extra caution the regulatory agencies have adopted in the aftermath of the MAX fiasco, five year is probably the minimum to obtain certification of such a beast - personally I'll be surprised to see commercial cert of such aircraft before 2030.
"Start-up" aircraft companies have a long history of pie-in-the-sky projections. Actually delivery of said aircraft is rare, regardless of the time frame.

[Maoraigh1]

Copied from STV:
"Flights across the UK will commence in early 2024, starting with routes to and from Edinburgh and expanding to mainland Europe shortly after, with long-haul flights planned for the future."
(I'm not a believer - just quoting STV.)

[tdracer]

I just noticed this bit:
Once converted, the aircraft will operate with the same power output as before, but with a one-hundred percent reduction in CO2 emissions," reads the press release. The water produced as a byproduct of the process will be captured and released at lower altitudes.
So, unlike conventional aircraft which become lighter as they burn off fuel (or battery powered which have a pretty much constant weight), this will get significantly heavier the longer it cruises (until it presumably dumps the accumulated water as it descends).
Should make for some interesting performance calculations :rolleyes:.

BTW, since they intend to start operations using good old kerosene, will the brand it "Pretend" Ecojet until they actually convert to H2 fuel?

[SWBKCB]

Copied from STV:
"Flights across the UK will commence in early 2024, starting with routes to and from Edinburgh and expanding to mainland Europe shortly after, with long-haul flights planned for the future."
(I'm not a believer - just quoting STV.)

Yes, they've not managed to cut and paste the press release properly.

[ChrisVJ]

Besides the difficulty of producing a hydrogen driven propeller aircraft with the power and range does anyone know of an electric engine that will produce the revs and power needed for a jet?

[Pilot DAR]

the certification standards/rules have not even been established. Storage of large amounts of liquid or high pressure H2 in the proximity of paying passengers is a far from trivial problem.

Yes.

I attended the ASTM convention in Prague in March where the new certification standards for this were one of the topics. We're not there yet as certifiers....

[ATC Watcher]

H2 ignites very easily and produces no visible flames which reach 2000 degrees C in microseconds. Tank leaks ( or failure after an accident ) are likely to cause massive human loss of lives in an airliner within a couple of seconds . . the fire regulations are likely to be going to be looked at very carefully and could take some time . .
As to the CO2 neutral H2 production ( no yet possible) it is another debate that might come up at one point in the near future .

[Andrewgr2]

Harbour Air demonstrated a modified to electric plane for their services in 2019. They don’t expect to get certification until 2025. Good luck to anyone that manages to do it any faster - particularly if they are going to use hydrogen as a fuel. https://harbourair.com/earth-day-eplane-update/

[tdracer]

Harbour Air demonstrated a modified to electric plane for their services in 2019. They don’t expect to get certification until 2025. Good luck to anyone that manages to do it any faster - particularly if they are going to use hydrogen as a fuel. https://harbourair.com/earth-day-eplane-update/
My understanding is that Harbour Air is using batteries for their electric plane.
That should make the cert path much easier than having to store large quantities of H2. The downside is that battery weight will make other than short range operations somewhere between impractical and impossible.

[Andrewgr2]

My understanding is that Harbour Air is using batteries for their electric plane.
That should make the cert path much easier than having to store large quantities of H2. The downside is that battery weight will make other than short range operations somewhere between impractical and impossible.
And my point is that in 4 years using relatively proven technologies they have not got certification. It’s inconceivable that a hydrogen fuelled aircraft could be carrying fare paying passengers in 2024 - in my opinion of course!

[Big Pistons Forever]

I predict there will be a manned base on Mars before there will be a viable zero emission 19 seat airliner, let alone one with 70 seats :rolleyes:

[Timmy Tomkins]

A lesson learned from O'Leary, they made the media and lots of free publicity

[DaveReidUK]

A lesson learned from O'Leary, they made the media and lots of free publicity

Except that, unlike O'Leary, they don't actually have anything to sell.

[Petit-Lion]

Besides the difficulty of producing a hydrogen driven propeller aircraft with the power and range does anyone know of an electric engine that will produce the revs and power needed for a jet?
The electric motor is actually the easy part of any electric vehicle. Light, powerful, near perfect efficiency.
However, expect slower cruise speeds. If I'm not mistaken, turbine powered aircraft (especially the multi-engined ones) have a best range velocity much higher than the best glide velocity of the airframe, due to the peaked efficiency curve of the turbine engine. Electric motors and piston engines have an almost flat efficiency curve, hence best-range velocity close to best-glide velocity of the airframe.
Happy to be corrected, I guess the huge drag of an INOP turbofan complicates the "best-glide" issue here...

[FlightlessParrot]

Besides the difficulty of producing a hydrogen driven propeller aircraft with the power and range does anyone know of an electric engine that will produce the revs and power needed for a jet?
US Navy warships of WW2 used turbo electric drive. I think there is no fundamental problem in producing an electric engine that will give any amount of power you want. The problem is getting enough angry pixies marching into that engine. Batteries won't do it, nor will hydrogen. Synthetic hydrocarbons might be a possibility.

[hoistop]

Certificationwise, EASA has already certified first electric driven serial production airplane, albeit in Light Sport Airplane category. See: https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/sl/products/velis-electro/
The funny thing is, that plane is certified, but there is no certification standard for maintenance organizations and personnel yet - it has been adressed with temporary exceptions.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Certificationwise, EASA has already certified first electric driven serial production airplane, albeit in Light Sport Airplane category. See: https://www.pipistrel-aircraft.com/sl/products/velis-electro/
The funny thing is, that plane is certified, but there is no certification standard for maintenance organizations and personnel yet - it has been adressed with temporary exceptions.

The CS23 certification standard for the Pipistrel Velis Electro is not recognized by any other Civil Aviation Authority and is missing many of the requirements for commercially operated air transport aircraft. It is a start but is not a pathway to certification of any of the proposed electric commuter or regional airliners.

[procede]

I think the main issue is that the pipistrel can only fly 50 min + 10 min VFR reserve (and those are optimistic numbers). No way you could transport paying passengers.

[Andrewgr2]

I think the main issue is that the pipistrel can only fly 50 min + 10 min VFR reserve (and those are optimistic numbers). No way you could transport paying passengers.

To say nothing of the fact that it is only a two seater!

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think the main issue is that the pipistrel can only fly 50 min + 10 min VFR reserve (and those are optimistic numbers). No way you could transport paying passengers.

That is not the point. What the certification standards commercial electric airplanes will have to meet is hugely consequential for companies pursuing this technology. Determining a “equivalent level of safety” for a completely novel power train compared to existing certified a power plants, is not obvious or easy. Regulators are understandably leery of approving something that is potentially unsafe, yet at the same time are facing a lot of political pressure to enable green technologies.

I expect electric aircraft will go through a cycle similar to other transformative technologies. There will be a lot of dead ends, a Shyte load of hype and BS design to separate suckers from their money and then eventually some serious projects. However the reality is that the laws of physics and chemistry makes practical electric powered airplanes, whether, battery, hydrogen, or something else a very tough problem to solve.

[hoistop]

The CS23 certification standard for the Pipistrel Velis Electro is not recognized by any other Civil Aviation Authority and is missing many of the requirements for commercially operated air transport aircraft. It is a start but is not a pathway to certification of any of the proposed electric commuter or regional airliners.

It is recognized within all European Union Member States. Isn`t that an achievment? You sounds like EU approval is insignificant?? I beg to disagree.
Of course, this twin seater is not capable of commercial passenger transport, and has limited capabilities (endurance) but is the first electric driven airplane, that is certified under EU regulations. And, since it can be used in flight schools, it can actually make money, albeit not in transporting people/goods.
Yes, it is an early bird, but bigger things are in the pipeline. There is a reason that Textron bought Pipistrel manufacturer for hundreds of millions of $.

[Big Pistons Forever]

It is recognized within all European Union Member States. Isn`t that an achievment? You sounds like EU approval is insignificant?? I beg to disagree.
Of course, this twin seater is not capable of commercial passenger transport, and has limited capabilities (endurance) but is the first electric driven airplane, that is certified under EU regulations. And, since it can be used in flight schools, it can actually make money, albeit not in transporting people/goods.
Yes, it is an early bird, but bigger things are in the pipeline. There is a reason that Textron bought Pipistrel manufacturer for hundreds of millions of $.

The Pipistrel Velus Electro can't be used in flight schools in Canada because Transport Canada requires training aircraft to have a FAR 23 or equivalent certification. The Electro can't be registered by the FAA as an LSA because the LSA category has no provisions for electric powered aircraft. These recreational or sport certification regimes are a dead end for commercial operations. What is needed is electric propulsion certification criteria to be added to FAR 23 or equivalent certification regulations ASAP so that there is some clarity on where the bar is for commercial electric aircraft

[tdracer]

The Pipistrel Velus Electro can't be used in flight schools in Canada because Transport Canada requires training aircraft to have a FAR 23 or equivalent certification. The Electro can't be registered by the FAA as an LSA because the LSA category has no provisions for electric powered aircraft. These recreational or sport certification regimes are a dead end for commercial operations. What is needed is electric propulsion certification criteria to be added to FAR 23 or equivalent certification regulations ASAP so that there is some clarity on where the bar is for commercial electric aircraft

Given the speed that the FAA (and their equivalents in other countries) move, it'll be a minimum of ten years before any regulations are published.
When we did the first FADECs on the 757, 767, and 747 back in the 1980s, most of it was done via 'Special Conditions' as many of the necessary regulations didn't exist yet in FAA land. Certifying via Special Condition is a huge pain in the rear (especially since they have a way of being 'fluid' and moving around during the process).
Over twenty years later - when Boeing launched the 747-8 - it was launched at Amendment level 117. The regulations still didn't exist for HIRF/EMI - in order to avoid the pain and suffering of another Special Condition cert, Boeing voluntarily stepped up to Amendment level 120 for those regulations.
The JAA/EASA - to their credit - managed to finalize those rules a decade earlier...