Ecojet? The smell of kerosene no longer?

[Captivep]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/17/green-energy-tycoon-to-launch-uk-first-electric-airline

I'm sure there are many people here who can give a considered, professional view of this; I have no idea but he's certainly been successful with Ecotricity.

On the other hand, I'm not sure a Twotter is ideal for a SOU-EDI service!

[bingofuel]

With the range quoted of 300 miles it will be doing well to make Southampton!

[fjencl]

A second phase, 18 months later, will result in 70-seater planes capable of flying to Europe being introduced.

What aircraft will the 70 seater be ????

[SWBKCB]

A second phase, 18 months later, will result in 70-seater planes capable of flying to Europe being introduced.

What aircraft will the 70 seater be ????

Isn't there work being done on the Dash-8?

[BA318]

A second phase, 18 months later, will result in 70-seater planes capable of flying to Europe being introduced.

What aircraft will the 70 seater be ????

He has posted on Twitter images of a Twin Otter, Dash 8 and 737 in the livery.

[V_2]

I heard him talking about this airline on talksport radio today. Not sure he mentioned hydrogen once, just that it was going to be electric, I suppose that sounds greener. But he also made it sound so simple, “just take the old combustion engines off and put the new ones on”, but where would all the hydrogen go surely it would be a huge job to retrofit. I thought hydrogen might be the next big fuel for cars which hasn’t happened yet, so hopefully he has some good success proving the concept

[chopper2004]

He has posted on Twitter images of a Twin Otter, Dash 8 and 737 in the livery.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/07/17/08/73291121-12306013-image-m-44_1689580611108.jpg

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/07/17/14/73300837-12306013-image-a-1_1689601157769.jpg

[BA318]

Wonder if BA might have something to say about the tail design as well.

[petit plateau]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/17/green-energy-tycoon-to-launch-uk-first-electric-airline

I'm sure there are many people here who can give a considered, professional view of this; I have no idea but he's certainly been successful with Ecotricity.

On the other hand, I'm not sure a Twotter is ideal for a SOU-EDI service!

"But Dale Vince’s Ecojet plane will run on kerosene-based fuel in 2024 to enable quick start to project"

[VickersVicount]

Wonder if BA might have something to say about the tail design as well.
They didn't have anything to say with Thai Orient, PM Air Tanker, or Sun Class wavy tails so I would doubt they’ll be interested.

[VickersVicount]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/07/17/08/73291121-12306013-image-m-44_1689580611108.jpg

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/07/17/14/73300837-12306013-image-a-1_1689601157769.jpg
Suspect we’ll hear no more about this for foreseeable, certainly not 2024. LM and EZY would have them for breakfast. Those travellers needing these sort of green credentials always tell us they use the train (or walk)

[ChrisVJ]

Even if they can make it physically feasible I can't see it being economically competitive.

[tdracer]

Funny they show a full blown turbofan engine - that will be powered by electricity.
Somehow I'd think you'd want an electric motor if you're plan is to power it with electricity.
Nothing about how or where they plan to store all that H2 - or how they plan to isolate it from the SLF. Any reasonable method of carrying significant amounts of H2 would either be under very high pressure or cryogenic - both of which mean large spherical or cylindrical storage - it's not fitting in the wing or under the floor.
Sounds pretty pie-in-the-sky to me.

[adfly]

ZeroAvia have made quite good progress flying their Dornier 228 demo, and I think they have also flown a Dash 8 300, but they are definitely a long way from getting anything certified for the moment. That being said it definitely seems like a more feasible short term option than the battery conversions, and bespoke new EV aircraft designs.

Flying a Twin Otter from Edinburgh to Southampton seems very odd, regardless of the fuel. That must be a >2hr sector length, on an aircraft with no toilet(?) and no cabin service. This will be up against up to 5 daily Loganair flights, taking 1hr 20 on a considerably more comfy and better equipped E145, with cabin service. Choosing a 356mi (great circle) route when the electric aircraft will have an estimated range of 300mi...

Something like Southampton to Leeds may be a better bet - poor train connection, more feasible distance, currently unserved but has sustained high fares on small aircraft in the past (no guarantee of success of course...).

I would love to be proven wrong, but the mismatch of details with the first press release is not confidence inspiring, and seems a little surprising from a person who has extensive experience and some success in industry (albeit other industries).

[Matt48]

Kerosene based fuel, ?? so kerosene then.

[LTNman]

When Airbus produces an electric equivalent on an Airbus I will take note. Sadly it isn’t going to happen. As the world burns expanding aviation is making it worse. Maybe when there are mass food shortages people will take action.

[fairflyer]

There are quite a raft of regional airliners either being retrofitted with hydrogen fuel-cell-powered electric motors or complete clean-sheet designs under development now, especially in the 19-50+ seat market. However, take for example Universal Hydrogen's retrofitted ATR-72 and a good ten or so seats are replaced with containerised hydrogen tanks, so the revenue per seat mile will be somewhat diminished. Things like the Dornier 328eco are looking good (retains turbine engines but using alternative fuels), Heart Aerospace, Zero Avia and others, but can't imagine certification by 2025 and entry into service immediately thereafter. Also costs will be interesting - leasing an old Dash-8, ATR or Dornier, or perhaps say an old CRJ or EMB-145 is going to be a lot cheaper than anything new and/or expensively retrofitted. It's exciting to see, but perhaps people need to be a little more realistic on timescales?

[Spunky Monkey]

Dale Vince is one of the main supports of Just Stop Oil, you know, the vicars etc who are blocking the roads around the capital.
So this current pie in the sky idea is about creating an argument / reason to ban oil extraction from the North Sea, rather than any real business case for green aircraft.

You can bet that now its all about sound bites that he and his cohort can shout at the cameras as a distraction to their ridiculous ill conceived plan to cripple parts of the UK economy.

[tdracer]

There are quite a raft of regional airliners either being retrofitted with hydrogen fuel-cell-powered electric motors or complete clean-sheet designs under development now, especially in the 19-50+ seat market. However, take for example Universal Hydrogen's retrofitted ATR-72 and a good ten or so seats are replaced with containerised hydrogen tanks, so the revenue per seat mile will be somewhat diminished. Things like the Dornier 328eco are looking good (retains turbine engines but using alternative fuels), Heart Aerospace, Zero Avia and others, but can't imagine certification by 2025 and entry into service immediately thereafter. Also costs will be interesting - leasing an old Dash-8, ATR or Dornier, or perhaps say an old CRJ or EMB-145 is going to be a lot cheaper than anything new and/or expensively retrofitted. It's exciting to see, but perhaps people need to be a little more realistic on timescales?

Unless there is a massive breakthrough in battery technology, battery powered aircraft will never be viable for other than short hops - simply too much mass in the needed batteries. Similarly, the difficulties with H2 storage mean it's unlikely to ever be viable for other than short range operations.
Various methods of creating carbon neutral synthetic kerosene (e.g. biofuels) hold far more long term promise (my personal favorite is using algae as a feedstock for biofuels - raising algae can use existing waste products and takes only a small fraction of the area that corn/soy/etc. based biofuels require). All this stuff with batteries and H2 for anything other than short range is mainly political posturing and/or investment cons.

[TartinTon]

https://airline-management.com/2023/07/17/amg-honoured-to-be-supporting-revolutionary-start-up-airline/

Seems a bit more credible than some?

[LGS6753]

If ZeroAvia is the supplier of the propulsion system, Mr Vince is telling porkies. According to them, they will be flight testing a Q400 in Q3 or Q4 2024. But they intend to offer the first application of that engine (Z2000) in an ATR 42/72 or Dash 8-300 in 2027.
Sounds like he'll be burning kerosene for a while longer than he says.

[DaveReidUK]

https://airline-management.com/2023/07/17/amg-honoured-to-be-supporting-revolutionary-start-up-airline/

Seems a bit more credible than some?

I'd be surprised if AMG's services were more than a purely financial transaction - I can't see them bearing any of the risk.

[TartinTon]

I'd be surprised if AMG's services were more than a purely financial transaction - I can't see them bearing any of the risk.

Why would they bear any of the risk, that's not what they do? They provide airline management expertise to companies. Better to have that than some ex cabin-crew member with his ex-baggage handler mate thinking they can start an airline, no?

[DaveReidUK]

Why would they bear any of the risk, that's not what they do? They provide airline management expertise to companies.

My point was that their involvement doesn't actually lend the project any more credibility. If it fails, it will be due to circumstances beyond AMG's control - in particular the regulatory and/or technological issues already referred to.

[AirportPlanner1]

It is credible in that it’s small-scale and one initial route proposed, rather than the usual fanfare of multiple A380s. And that Mr Vince has the financial resources to give it a go.

[SWBKCB]

It is credible in that it’s small-scale and one initial route proposed, rather than the usual fanfare of multiple A380s. And that Mr Vince has the financial resources to give it a go.

But the 'one initial route' is EDI-SOU on a Twin Otter using unproven technlogy in a regulatory framework that doesn't exist - so more credible than the A380 mob, but not by much.

[TartinTon]

They can't operate it on the twotter as it won't make it with a 300 mile range so this sounds more like a soundbite rather than a genuine route proposal.

[offload]

They can't operate it on the twotter as it won't make it with a 300 mile range so this sounds more like a soundbite rather than a genuine route proposal.
Twotter could do it probably in 2hr20mins, with no toilet or cabin service. Toilet can be retrofitted at the cost of 2 seats. EDI-SOU with 17 seats doesn't scream profit. Current projections for on board Hydrogen storage at -253 degs C would be 15-25% of the cabin (including bulk OOG storage area). Questionable.

[ETOPS]

Now in the news again - buying 70 motors from ZeroAvia to retrofit on their proposed 19 seater fleet.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-67559550.amp

[Uplinker]

Funny they show a full blown turbofan engine - that will be powered by electricity.
Somehow I'd think you'd want an electric motor if you're plan is to power it with electricity.......

Yes, I also thought that "electric motor" in the graphic looked very much like a gas turbine engine. Maybe they are going to run the gas turbine up to speed just via the electric starter, powered from the fuel cell........

Kerosene based fuel, ?? so kerosene then.

Bio derived turbine fuel is kerosene though isn't it?

When Airbus produces an electric equivalent on an Airbus I will take note. Sadly it isn’t going to happen. As the world burns expanding aviation is making it worse. Maybe when there are mass food shortages people will take action.

I am very confused. We are continually being told that the World is experiencing climate change which is due to us humans. If this is really the case, why is air travel being allowed to increase and expand after Covid? Surely we should have banned unnecessary holiday flights by now?

Why has there not been a ban on new domestic cars with engines larger than, say, 2,000cc ?

Why are trains getting ever more expensive, and why are there very few bus services outside our cities and towns?

Why do fossil fuel producers attend the COP talks? Would they be there to lobby the ministers by any chance?

If the climate really is in trouble, how come there are all these contradictions ?

[ETOPS]

If the climate really is in trouble, how come there are all these contradictions ?

The International Monetary Fund calculates that the fossil fuel industry receives subsidies from governments totalling
$7 Trillion in 2022. See this attached article and then - as they say - follow the money!

https://www.imf.org/en/Topics/climate-change/energy-subsidies

[southamptonavgeek]

From Wikipedia:
On 9 December 2023, it was reported that Ecojet had made further appointments to its management team. These appointments included Deon van Rensburg as its Head of Finance, Ben Leon as its Chief Commercial Officer and Augusto Ponte as an advisor to the Board of Directors. Furthermore, it was officially confirmed that Brent Smith is to take on the role of Chief Executive Officer.

Info seems to have come from their Linked In site

[amyisraelchai]

Rebecca Borresen has been appointed as Ecojet's Chief Operating Officer. One of a number of recent appointments.

[Flightrider]

An interesting stand-off developing between the Ecojet team and the new CEO of Loganair who used to work with most of them either at Flybe or Specialist Aviation then!

Given the relative lack of discussion, I'm unsure if I'm the only one who doesn't get this whole Ecojet thing though. Apart from the obvious point that it's neither a "jet" nor "eco" in its current form - and won't be for quite some time to come - they appear to have a team with a higher credibility rating than most start-ups (although that's intended as an observation and not a compliment). But they are aiming to fly ATR72s in a market where getting aircraft deliveries and spares is proving hugely difficult for many long-established operators (Aurigny and Loganair for two obvious examples at present). Trying to recruit crews in a market where regional airlines are struggling to hang on to those they have (Eastern and Loganair for two more examples).

In terms of routes, Edinburgh-Southampton has been the only public statement. If both Edinburgh and Southampton are minded to give out commercial deals for a second operator to join that route, it would surely be to easyJet and not Ecojet? Even if Ecojet does get started on the route, it would surely pave the way with the airports to offer deals to easyJet to replicate its presence on GLA-SOU with a daily EDI-SOU, at which point the rationale of their presence disappears.

It just feels like they are trying to defy gravity with the obvious crewing and aircraft issues affecting other airlines so clearly, and the route plan is based on no reaction to their entry to the market. If you're aiming to shake things up, you need to look at how other operators will react to that "shake" and factor that into your plans.

So for now, although I think these people have a team capable of putting an aircraft into the air and becoming an airline, I'm less than convinced that they can turn that airline into a business. I'll wait for someone to drop by and tell me I've got it all wrong.....

[SWBKCB]

In terms of routes, Edinburgh-Southampton has been the only public statement. If both Edinburgh and Southampton are minded to give out commercial deals for a second operator to join that route, it would surely be to easyJet and not Ecojet? Even if Ecojet does get started on the route, it would surely pave the way with the airports to offer deals to easyJet to replicate its presence on GLA-SOU with a daily EDI-SOU, at which point the rationale of their presence disappears.

Doesn't work like that, does it? If an airline wants to fly the route, the airports can't refuse.

[amyisraelchai]

I think the other points made by Flightrider are fairly accurate and probably reflect the thinking of most on here. However I would think it likely that EDI-SOU was just an indicative regional route for the news media - after that comment was made, easyJet have of course set up a (minimal) presence at SOU which may indeed deter any new operators on such routes although I would think otherwise.

The hydrogen powered Twin Otters are still slated for 2025 according to this press release (https://zeroavia.com/ecojet/) but I don't see how they will be able to viably compete with Loganair on a network within Scotland, which one presumes is the intention with an EDI base.

[jmdavies86]

The hydrogen powered Twin Otters are still slated for 2025 according to this press release (https://zeroavia.com/ecojet/) but I don't see how they will be able to viably compete with Loganair on a network within Scotland, which one presumes is the intention with an EDI base.

I think there's a lot of hype, PR & spin being put out about hydrogen-powered flight at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I think it'll definitely happen at some point and I think it's the way the industry should look to go after SAFs, however any notion of having hydrogen-powered 'Twotters' flying in 2025 is frankly for the birds. Remember, it's not just about having/operating the aircraft - airports will also need to have the relevant infrastructure in place too.

I do agree with your view about EDI as a base and Flightrider's earlier point about any commercial deal for a second operator to join onto the EDI-SOU route surely being granted to easyJet and not Ecojet.

[BA318]

I think there's a lot of hype, PR & spin being put out about hydrogen-powered flight at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I think it'll definitely happen at some point and I think it's the way the industry should look to go after SAFs, however any notion of having hydrogen-powered 'Twotters' flying in 2025 is frankly for the birds. Remember, it's not just about having/operating the aircraft - airports will also need to have the relevant infrastructure in place too.

I do agree with your view about EDI as a base and Flightrider's earlier point about any commercial deal for a second operator to join onto the EDI-SOU route surely being granted to easyJet and not Ecojet.

If an airline wants to start a route, and the airport is not slot restricted, there is not much they can do to stop them. Maybe they don’t offer incentives and such but it’s not like route licensing like some countries. There is nothing stopping EasyJet launching this route if they want to.

[Flightrider]

Doesn't work like that, does it? If an airline wants to fly the route, the airports can't refuse.

An airport cannot turn an airline away unless there are objective capacity constraints (e.g. no slots available). But it can exercise a very considerable degree of latitude over the commercial terms it offers to any airline wishing to use the airport, which can have almost the same effect.

[BA318]

An airport cannot turn an airline away unless there are objective capacity constraints (e.g. no slots available). But it can exercise a very considerable degree of latitude over the commercial terms it offers to any airline wishing to use the airport, which can have almost the same effect.

and as we saw with Flybe2 almost no airport cared that another operator was coming in on the same route. They chase short term passenger numbers and the fees they bring.

[Blackfriar]

Unless there is a massive breakthrough in battery technology, battery powered aircraft will never be viable for other than short hops - simply too much mass in the needed batteries. Similarly, the difficulties with H2 storage mean it's unlikely to ever be viable for other than short range operations.
Various methods of creating carbon neutral synthetic kerosene (e.g. biofuels) hold far more long term promise (my personal favorite is using algae as a feedstock for biofuels - raising algae can use existing waste products and takes only a small fraction of the area that corn/soy/etc. based biofuels require). All this stuff with batteries and H2 for anything other than short range is mainly political posturing and/or investment cons.

A university in Germany has created "grey goo" - Hydrogen stored in a magnesium-based grey paste that can be pumped and stored like diesel. Simply add water and deliver the mix to a Solid Oxide Fuel Cell which turns the hydrogen into electricity and more water. That would be the best way to power cars, trucks and potentially aeroplanes subject to seeing how the fuel density works out for range and power etc.
Hydrogen can now be created at a cost comparable to diesel/petrol but I don't know how practical the magnesium paste is in cost or mass production terms.

[runway30]

It is clearly more difficult to start an airline in the UK than it was 30 years ago. Whilst this project is clearly well funded, unlike many projects discussed on these boards, does that in itself guarantee success?

Two operations have become a problem, starting on a ‘B’ licence and operating turboprops.

Pre EasyJet, which decided on a different startup model, the route into airline ownership for a small amount of capital was the ‘B’ licence and then grow from there. When Air Passenger Duty was introduced, the sub 20 seat market was exempt, a situation that hasn’t continued unless you operate under a PSO.

Turboprops still have a niche which as I see it is as a regional feeder for network carriers or connecting remote communities.

The last attempt at UK wide point to point services, Flybe, failed spectacularly. Now many will point to management failings, jet leases etc. but the bottom line is that you can’t offer fares operating turboprops that compete with the low cost airlines.

I would encourage potential airline CEOs to sit down with a blank piece of paper and decide where their future airline sits on the convenience/cost line. Convenience being the level of service you offer such as service frequency, level of onboard service, free ancillaries. As you offer less convenience you move towards lower cost.

To bring us back to the thread, the questions I have are
1) Can a new turboprop operator be successful?
2) Low emissions has to be seen as a convenience because it will come with a higher cost. Will passengers be prepared to pay that higher cost?

[amyisraelchai]

Mila Slobodianiuk has joined Ecojet as the CCO. This is definitely becoming the most credible of the current startup attempts.

[SWBKCB]

Not a high bar...

[amyisraelchai]

Very fair comment!!

[Flightrider]

These guys are putting out some pretty desperate-sounding pilot recruitment adverts. How can you be recruiting pilots when you haven't even applied for an Operating Licence with the CAA and there's no visibility of any aircraft coming? With current problems in the ATR market, operators struggling to get delivery of committed aircraft and 72s apparently still in demand, where are the aircraft coming from? Surely if they can start to answer some of these questions, prospective pilots and employees might take it rather more seriously ....

[biddedout]

These guys are putting out some pretty desperate-sounding pilot recruitment adverts. How can you be recruiting pilots when you haven't even applied for an Operating Licence with the CAA and there's no visibility of any aircraft coming? With current problems in the ATR market, operators struggling to get delivery of committed aircraft and 72s apparently still in demand, where are the aircraft coming from? Surely if they can start to answer some of these questions, prospective pilots and employees might take it rather more seriously ....

That's exactly what I was thinking. It doesn't make sense even if there is good money behind it and the makings a reasonable management team. How are they going to recruit pilots without giving them a good insight into the bigger picture, particularly as some of the pilots they are likely to be targeting were recruited by the the same managers in Flybe 2? Why would anyone leave a current employer and go to an operator with no AOC and no aeroplanes and the twin otter thing seems to be a complete red herring. If there is a desire to try out hydrogen on an Otter then surely it would be on Highlands and Islands type routes of less than an hour, where the Otter has been operating for over 30 years. Some kind of merger / consolidation or partnership between the current operators in the field and possibly sharing resources, AOC's etc is the only thing that makes sense.

As has been pointed out, the only plausible aircraft for high frequency SH domestic flights are the ATR and the ERJ145. When these 145 aircraft were first bought in significant numbers by the Airlines of Britain group (BRAL) they were thrown at all sorts of routes from MAN - BHD to BHX - MXP, BHX - STR etc and many were put on the former BA Regional (737/A320) routes. Some of these routes have still not been taken on by the locos. I never got the arguments put forward by Flybe that the 145's were an economic disaster (maybe more like Flybe were up to their necks in E190 debts). What happened to all those routes that BRAL / BA con used to do out of BHX for instance? They haven't all gone to the locos and there must still be some low hanging fruit ready to be picked by a 145. Its just a shame that Loganair doesn't have the resources / crews to deploy them more effectively at the moment.
One thing is for sure, the new boss of Logan will be well aware of all this history.

[hec7or]

The BRAL routes were not supported particularly well by BA who controlled the ticket sales and unfortunately, the available seat mile cost per kg of fuel for a regional jet with a 60% load factor is not good when compared to a full A320/B737. If the airline wanted to offer the high frequency rotations demanded by business travellers like 3 departures per destination per day, the fare had to be high enough to offset the low load factor and it became a bit of a Catch 22.
Low Cost Airlines avoid this by filling the aircraft, but often don't offer the high frequency and are like any budget business in that they pile them high and sell them cheap.

[TartinTon]

These guys are putting out some pretty desperate-sounding pilot recruitment adverts. How can you be recruiting pilots when you haven't even applied for an Operating Licence with the CAA and there's no visibility of any aircraft coming? With current problems in the ATR market, operators struggling to get delivery of committed aircraft and 72s apparently still in demand, where are the aircraft coming from? Surely if they can start to answer some of these questions, prospective pilots and employees might take it rather more seriously ....

The AOC application is well underway as is the aircraft procurement from what I understand....I'm sure that people are learning more at the interview stage

[Hearmenow]

I hope this start up is a success to offer the consumer more choice/competition as Eastern is a joke and with Logan retreating to core business there's an opportunity.
However... who's applying for jobs? UK Pilot Market is buoyant. Ex Flybe TP drivers both LHS and RHS are now earning double what they're offering on 777/787 flying across the globe for DHL/Virgin/BA and others joined Norse, Ryanair and Jet2. Other regionals are haemorrhaging Pilots to more career enhancing options. I can see newly qualified pilots applying but experienced Captains? Would you leave Logan for this if you are an ATR Scottish based skipper?

[Flightrider]

I think that's very much the point I had in mind. If you are an ATR skipper at an established UK airline, you'll leave to go to DHL, Jet2, BA or somewhere else - you are unlikely to trade away job security to join a new start-up in the same seat on an ATR. The ex-Flybe Q400 pilots are pretty much all working elsewhere now, so there's no pool there to tap. It probably explains why their job adverts are sounding rather desperate.

It's just very strange to have no Operating Licence application in and published by the CAA. The wheels of licensing don't start to turn until you make that application and pay the fees. It was mentioned that they had applied for Part-CAMO but you can do that without being an airline. To be an airline, you need an AOC and an Operating Licence as well. Oh, and you need some aircraft too!!