What happens if someone leaves without paying the bond from EK - QR?

[fras]

Hey everyone,

I have offer from both companies and I was thinking what happens If I go there and for some reason like my wife does not want to stay anymore or I do not like it anymore etc I quite the job and I don't pay the crazy ammount that I will sign with the contract(bond)?
If I return back to my home in Europe and get an other job can I face legal actions against me in Europe?
Obviously I have to forget going there for vacation after :8
Do not get me wrong, its not like I am not proffesional but I want to feel like I am not "forced" to stay there if I do not like it.
I would try to pay the bond but what if i cannot?
Anyone went to any of those companies recently and left before the bond was finished?

Regards
Fras

[Haxe]

I am not getting you wrong but people taking responsibility and getting paid to do so should
be aware in beforehand if willing to pay out the bond or not.

If you dont want to pay or your girlfriend wants to go .. all fine but contracts are there for a reason and
you are already playing games about disobeying rules and regulations.

Get a nice job in Europe then but please do not share my flight given that „what happens if..“ attitude.

[HOVIS]

Good employers don't need to bond their employees. Avoid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_bond

[Time Traveller]

Such contracts and associated surety bonds are similar to indentured servitude or serfdom Ha ha, quite liked that line on Wikipedia. Yes, indeed, good companies shouldn't need it, and it surpresses the equilibrium level of pay. Worse is to bond already rated pilots. Quite why we put up with it, I don't know. It's relatively unusual in other professions.

But as mentioned above, if there's any doubt, there's no doubt - don't go - it's one hell of a big move, and you or the family being unhappy there can be very detrimental. They might not be able to grab you in Europe, but what if you're rostered with a ME layover? I knew a very unpleasant character who did a runner from Singapore with a load of their money, and apparently he squirmed like hell when he had a surprise rostered trip through SIN.

[fras]

I am not getting you wrong but people taking responsibility and getting paid to do so should
be aware in beforehand if willing to pay out the bond or not.

If you dont want to pay or your girlfriend wants to go .. all fine but contracts are there for a reason and
you are already playing games about disobeying rules and regulations.

Get a nice job in Europe then but please do not share my flight given that „what happens if..“ attitude.
your attitude isn't better I have to admit. not playing any games, appart from a little bit fifa.
so if you don't know the answer, keep your professionalism for yourself and don't waste people's time
thanks

[Spongeboeing]

Don't do it. In the old days people may have gotten away with it but not anymore. People used to leave the country, leave their cars park somewhere and make off even with unpaid bank loans. The cockpit stories of people flying through these places on connecting flights and being put in jail for even the smallest of debts are not rare nowadays.
If your family are unsure about moving to any of these two places then you should probably consider that Dubai may be just ok for a wife to stay on the ground with the kids but Doha most probably isn't. They would be bored to death.

[Pif Paf]

One guy left Ek many years ago with outstanding bank loans. Years later he was passing through Dubai and never made it past immigration. Arrested straight away for non payment of loans. He then spent all night ringing past friends and colleagues asking to borrow money! His new employer paid the bill but now keeps his passport when he’s not at work flying!

Basically they will catch you eventually

[Asturias56]

"Obviously I have to forget going there for vacation after"

worse than that - you can't think of flying anywhere near the place in case of an unplanned diversion - and the Middle East is the main route east - means you'd always be flying to Australia via LA for example and FOREVER - computers don't forget your debt and I doubt there is a time limit on legal action there..

As other have said if in doubt don't go - you'll be constantly comparing life there with the life you think you'd have elsewhere and afterwards you'd be always looking over your shoulder.

I know a lot of people who love Dubai - others not so much.

[hobbit1983]

Good employers don't need to bond their employees. Avoid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_bond

Agreed. However, are there any employers left who don't...?

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

Agreed. However, are there any employers left who don't...?

There are a few.

[Haxe]

your attitude isn't better I have to admit. not playing any games, appart from a little bit fifa.
so if you don't know the answer, keep your professionalism for yourself and don't waste people's time
thanks

Another pro not obeying rules and giving less than a dime on contracts.

Thank you very much for your opinion

[45989]

Another pro not obeying rules and giving less than a dime on contracts.

Thank you very much for your opinion
The "rules" used to relate to when there were gentlemen. Bonds?? Now like everything else, lowest standard rules

[inbalance]

your attitude isn't better I have to admit. not playing any games, appart from a little bit fifa.
so if you don't know the answer, keep your professionalism for yourself and don't waste people's time
thanks
you should not ask questions in an open forum because you may not like the answer.
I don’t like your attitude.

[admikar]

Hey everyone,

I have offer from both companies and I was thinking what happens If I go there and for some reason like my wife does not want to stay anymore or I do not like it anymore etc I quite the job and I don't pay the crazy ammount that I will sign with the contract(bond)?
If I return back to my home in Europe and get an other job can I face legal actions against me in Europe?
Obviously I have to forget going there for vacation after :8
Do not get me wrong, its not like I am not proffesional but I want to feel like I am not "forced" to stay there if I do not like it.
I would try to pay the bond but what if i cannot?
Anyone went to any of those companies recently and left before the bond was finished?

Regards
Fras
Why are you bonded in the first place? Are you already rated?

[FQT2YS]

I know a guy who did a „runner” many years ago, during a layover! Just did not show up for the return flight to DXB the next day.

Working for a European low cost Airline now.

It could work, but never try to book a holiday involving a flight, that could potentially divert into DXB.

[roll_over]

Is bonding qualified people common in any other industry?

I told people in other industries about it and they thought I was mad. It’s not acceptable at all.

If I hired a cleaner for my house and bonded them for training I’d probably get done for modern day slavery and rightly so.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

The really bad part is , any member of your family who travels through a GCC country in the future can be detained in prison until you arrive and take their place .it has happened . Could you risk that on your parents grandparents or Siblings if they just want a London Holiday via the Middle East.

[HOVIS]

The really bad part is , any member of your family who travels through a GCC country in the future can be detained in prison until you arrive and take their place .it has happened . Could you risk that on your parents grandparents or Siblings if they just want a London Holiday via the Middle East.
Why would anyone volunteer to work and live in such a country? Is the money really that good?

[Spongeboeing]

Why would anyone volunteer to work and live in such a country? Is the money really that good?

Because it's not as bad as some people here describe. It is possible to live a happy life as an expat in the ME. The place has some rules written on paper but most people won't experience any situations where they even have to remember such rules exist. The day to day life is comfortable. You get to save more money than you could anywhere else. The work is ok (tiring as is long haul anywhere) and the package includes a lot more than just money.
But there are people who just aren't compatible with expat life and they value the safety that an "old country's" contract and laws give them, even if it means to work less comfortably or for less money. It's as simple as that. The ME isn't for everybody. Some people love it and some hate it. The reality is that more of the people who hate it write on here. The colleagues who are happy in Dubai don't usually come to pprune to tell us about it.

[admikar]

Is bonding qualified people common in any other industry?

I told people in other industries about it and they thought I was mad. It’s not acceptable at all.

If I hired a cleaner for my house and bonded them for training I’d probably get done for modern day slavery and rightly so.
Other side of the coin is that you invest time and money and then they jump ship. You might swallow one or two, but after that it's either bond or you pay for your own training (wondering where have we already seen this).

[Shrike200]

For every moron who does a runner, the rules and hoops to jump through get stricter for those who choose to do their homework and go into it with their eyes wide open. Don't be that moron. Please.

My opinion? I can't believe a professional pilot would debate this idiocy on an open forum (whether bonds are necessary/good/evil is another question of course, and I'm NOT defending them, but that's not what the OP is asking). But "can I go there, then break the thing I KNEW I would be asked to sign before I even started the interview process"? That's beyond unprofessional. If you don't like training bonds, don't go. If you're worried your wife/family might not like it, don't go. These aren't challenging concepts.

"What's life like as a pilot for EK/QR?" is a MUCH more sensible question to ask. And it has been here, many times. Maybe read a bit? Of the many thousands of pilots employed by these carriers, don't you know ONE guy who works there!? Why don't you.....you know, phone them?

[wonderland]

Ha ha, quite liked that line on Wikipedia. Yes, indeed, good companies shouldn't need it, and it surpresses the equilibrium level of pay. Worse is to bond already rated pilots. Quite why we put up with it, I don't know. It's relatively unusual in other professions.

But as mentioned above, if there's any doubt, there's no doubt - don't go - it's one hell of a big move, and you or the family being unhappy there can be very detrimental. They might not be able to grab you in Europe, but what if you're rostered with a ME layover? I knew a very unpleasant character who did a runner from Singapore with a load of their money, and apparently he squirmed like hell when he had a surprise rostered trip through SIN.

That guy rings a bell, Scoot Fella?

[roll_over]

Other side of the coin is that you invest time and money and then they jump ship. You might swallow one or two, but after that it's either bond or you pay for your own training (wondering where have we already seen this).

In other industries where they have high attrition rates they would increase the remuneration package not handcuff them to the company. It seems this only happens to pilots, I’m sure if you join a mid level management position in these companies you are not bonded in case you leave.

[Time Traveller]

That guy rings a bell, Scoot Fella? No much further back, in the expat captain Singapore airlines days. A deal far better than anything today, and on top of his APS pension, but still saw fit to steal from them and spoil it for everyone else.

[admikar]

In other industries where they have high attrition rates they would increase the remuneration package not handcuff them to the company. It seems this only happens to pilots, I’m sure if you join a mid level management position in these companies you are not bonded in case you leave.
Yes, but you are missing the point. You know what the package is before commiting. If you don't like it, don't go in in the first place.
By doing so, you are basically going in with intent to defraud. And now we either have bonds or self funded training.

OP asked if there are repercussions of skipping the bond. Maybe he really does not intend to skip it if it comes to that, but just by asking so gives bad vibes.

[virga 208]

Living in the UAE is no different than any other ''western'' country, in fact it's safer than any ''western'' place i know of, the only restriction would be in ramadhan month where you should avoid eating or drinking in public out of respect for the believers, other than that it's great.
Some people talk **** because of lack of experience and wisdom, they think the grass is greener elsewhere.

[Twiglet1]

Previous airline had a guy jump from UK AOC to QR without paying his bond. Someone knew someone in QR and had words. Chap went from 777 course to A320.

[Gulf News]

To the OP. Aside from the ethics or lack of in breaking a signed bond I strongly suggest reading this article in sky news. There are many other sad stories out there.

https://news.sky.com/story/i-was-thrown-in-jail-with-al-qaeda-terrorists-over-a-4-000-debt-12923561

[virga 208]

Not sure why this topic has so much interest, it looks like STEALING is an interesting and an enthusiastic topic, it's to our shame to bring our beautiful profession to this level.

[WrldWide]

Not sure why this topic has so much interest, it looks like STEALING is an interesting and an enthusiastic topic, it's to our shame to bring our beautiful profession to this level.
Stealing? Really? How so?

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Virga 208 - Living in the UAE is no different than any other ''western'' country

WHAT A CROCK OF SH.T

Having lived in Dubai for 14 years, I can categorically, emphatically state that living in the UAE is COMPLETELY different to living in other "western" countries.

[virga 208]

Then stay in your ''western'' corner, we'll spend less time in traffic.

[Bresh]

Virga 208 -

WHAT A CROCK OF SH.T

Having lived in Dubai for 14 years, I can categorically, emphatically state that living in the UAE is COMPLETELY different to living in other "western" countries.

Of course its different … Criminals and fraudsters wouldnt like it.

Like the poor Nigerian who was murdered last week in bright daylight in Italy and no one helped him. Or the daily shootings, robberies and rape happening in western countries. You dont have that in the UAE. It is a very safe country where people like to raise their kids.

[HOVIS]

In other industries where they have high attrition rates they would increase the remuneration package not handcuff them to the company. It seems this only happens to pilots, I’m sure if you join a mid level management position in these companies you are not bonded in case you leave.
It happens to Licenced Engineers too. Slightly easier to break a bond though as one is unlikely to be 'rostered' through the country.

[Rhodes13]

Of course its different … Criminals and fraudsters wouldnt like it.

Like the poor Nigerian who was murdered last week in bright daylight in Italy and no one helped him. Or the daily shootings, robberies and rape happening in western countries. You dont have that in the UAE. It is a very safe country where people like to raise their kids.

Unless you’re a woman who reports a rape and are then thrown in jail for having sex outside of marriage.

It took worldwide media interest for the last one to be released.

How about when you report a crime the police take your passport if they can even be bothered to investigate it? That's a lovely way to keep crime statistics low.

Don’t kid yourself that the UAE doesn’t have crime. They’re just much better at hiding it. Having no free press tends to help in that regard (remember the EK pilot who was the subject of a violent home invasion?) Can’t upset the carefully developed image.

We won’t even start about how certain nationalities are treated differently or how women are viewed as second class citizens.

But yeah it’s entirely like the western world!

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Don’t kid yourself that the UAE doesn’t have crime. They’re just much better at hiding it. Having no free press tends to help in that regard (remember the EK pilot who was the subject of a violent home invasion?) Can’t upset the carefully developed image.



If you’re actually trying to compare crime levels with the west while keeping a straight face, then I don’t know what else there is to say.

[Rhodes13]

If you’re actually trying to compare crime levels with the west while keeping a straight face, then I don’t know what else there is to say.

I am, yes there is possibly more crime in the west however you nor anyone else will ever know the real crime rate in Dubai or the UAE as it's simply not reported. So it's all lovely figures.

I go back to the comment before about a lack of fraudsters. Dubai is a safe haven for them, the never ending Ponzi schemes that the government do nothing about until it makes international news, the known fraudsters with arrest warrants that the UAE refuse to extradite etc etc.

Or whilst I lived in DSO the constant petty thefts that were reported on the local FB group.

I'll take my example, physically assaulted by someone, went to hospital to get a piece of paper showing my injuries (mandatory) to then show the police. Went to the police station and sat there for three hours before I was seen. Presented them with the paper and the name and address of the person who assaulted me. Did the police do anything? Hell no, to quote his words why do you want to make a big deal of this?

This carried on for a month or so before I formally complained. CID showed up and took the chap in. I was then called into the police station and made to sit next to the person who assaulted me. We both gave our version of events. I was asked if I would like to press charges, I said yes. It was then I was told I would have to forgo my passport whilst they investigated. The timeline was unknown and if I lost I would have to potentially pay money to the person, never mind not being able to work for the entire time they were investigating. Nevermind the accused now knew my name, address and place of work....

Is it any wonder people don't report crimes......

But yeah Dubai is totally safe and nothing every happens there, but go on tell me with your extensive time in the ME how wrong I am Dingleberry

[Dingleberry Handpump]

I am, yes there is possibly more crime in the west
Yes, quite possibly:}

Shall I talk you through my experience of being a victim of crime In SFO? It won’t take long.

I made no remark on handling, merely that the crime rate in Dubai is completely, utterly dwarfed by the west.

I’m sorry you had a poor experience. That said, if you’re going to claim points against Dubai, pick your battles. Crime isn’t one of them. Not by a significant chalk.

[Half Back]

If you decide to leave pay your bond. Save your money and leave yourself that escape fund. You will sleep better. Who knows if they will find and penalize your contract with interest. I get the whole bond thing but what frustrates me is how the contract is set up. A global express XRS/5000 type rating at flight safety costs 68,000USD plus 10,000 for additional expenses. That's 78,000. Why are pilots being bonded for 115,000USD? I'm not sure what the airline life is like but this is the bond rate in the Middle East on a bizjet. Also five years? Why five? Two years is fair. If pilots are forced to stay this will reflect in their happiness. Does management want negativity lingering in the cockpit?

Lastly, you need to ask yourself some tough questions about your relationship. By the sounds of it Pilots work a lot in the ME. Is it safe to assume you will be gone most of the time? You know your wife the best. Can she live a solo life in the Middle East? When someone is lonely the only thing to do is spend money on nice expensive stuff to find that short term happiness. If you're asking you already know your answer. She probably wont like it. After a year she will want home. Take less pay if that's your circumstances and stay home. Don't play poker with happiness as. You will loose.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Hey Virga

this is a pretty good summary of the failings of the uae …..

and thanks, but I’m pretty sure that me not being in Dubai will make stuff all difference to the traffic. (Oh the driving there btw, has to be one of the most dangerous in the world. You might have less of a chance of being mugged - but dyin in a pile up……. Well you can’t deny that)

https://ivypanda.com/essays/united-states-and-uae-human-rights-comparison/

[virga 208]

Hey guys,

I'm not saying that the UAE is a crime free country or the perfect place to live, i'm just saying that the overall compromise is good.
From your (everyone) writings, it feels like it's a **** hole while it's not even close to be the case.
When people think: i hate the country and the people in it but i stay coz i love the cash so much, will just make you and the people around you miserable, grab the bull by the horn and seek happiness elsewhere.

I wish you all happiness in your lives.

[Shazeem]

Hey guys,

I'm not saying that the UAE is a crime free country or the perfect place to live, i'm just saying that the overall compromise is good.
From your (everyone) writings, it feels like it's a **** hole while it's not even close to be the case.
When people think: i hate the country and the people in it but i stay coz i love the cash so much, will just make you and the people around you miserable, grab the bull by the horn and seek happiness elsewhere.

I wish you all happiness in your lives.

Look for happiness elsewhere...that's 3rd floor talk. You are a guest, an expendable and replaceable asset. With a family.
​​​​​
Just wait until your tiny "1st/2nd world" bubble will burst.
There are many families who have a better life in Dubai (UAE) compared to life in their home country (i.e. education, income, healthcare). So not so easy to look for " happiness" somewhere else... a bit shortsighted from your side but hey...that's what living in Dubai does to most people. Doesnt mean they like the place.
It is a 3rd world place.
Most people from 1st world countries who come here are a special kind. Mercenaries who want to achieve their personal goals at any cost (ego stuff i.e.money, left seat, higher social status etc ). They tend to love Dubai.
Just stay in your bubble. Halas.

[Kennytheking]

There are many families who have a better life in Dubai (UAE) compared to life in their home country (i.e. education, income, healthcare).

Nuff said...

[BANANASBANANAS]

It’s really quite simple.

As an expat, you are a ‘tolerated guest’ in another country. If you choose to work in Dubai or any other expat location for that matter, you must play by their rules or not go at all. You can’t willingly sign up for something and then abuse the contract for it being exactly what you signed up for. If you do insufficient due diligence, then that is down to you.

Either, come to your expat location to work, and make it work for you as much as you can, or don’t come at all. If you come, know what the rules are and play by them.

I have been an expat for 27 years now and that has been the consistent feedback from every expat I know that has made a success of expatriate life.

I worked for Emirates for 8 years and lived a fairly quiet life with my family, enjoyed most of my flying, and saved more money in 8 years than I probably would have in most of a full career in my home country.

If you are not sure that an expat lifestyle is for you and your family, then it isn’t.

[Red_giant]

Would you walk out of a restaurant without paying?

[Monarch Man]

A chap I know walked out on the EK bond, this was pre biometric days.
When an opportunity arose that involved quite a bit of ME transit including DXB, he merely legally changed his name (took the wife's maiden name I think) and happily strolled in and out of the UAE when he needed too.
He's still doing it to this day I believe.
in regards to being an expat, do your job, make your money, keep your gob shut and leave when the money or sh1t bucket is filled.

[Skyfl410]

Hey everyone,

I have offer from both companies and I was thinking what happens If I go there and for some reason like my wife does not want to stay anymore or I do not like it anymore etc I quite the job and I don't pay the crazy ammount that I will sign with the contract(bond)?
If I return back to my home in Europe and get an other job can I face legal actions against me in Europe?
Obviously I have to forget going there for vacation after :8
Do not get me wrong, its not like I am not proffesional but I want to feel like I am not "forced" to stay there if I do not like it.
I would try to pay the bond but what if i cannot?
Anyone went to any of those companies recently and left before the bond was finished?

Regards
Fras
My suggestion is to never shut the door. Just keep it simple...give your resignation, wait 3 months, pay what's missing from the bond and say bye-bye thank you. You never know if in the future you need to go back. My friend left Qr in good terms and after 10 years he rejoined them.

I'm sure your wife will understand otherwise dump her ;) ;)

[3Greens]

A chap I know walked out on the EK bond, this was pre biometric days.
When an opportunity arose that involved quite a bit of ME transit including DXB, he merely legally changed his name (took the wife's maiden name I think) and happily strolled in and out of the UAE when he needed too.
He's still doing it to this day I believe.
in regards to being an expat, do your job, make your money, keep your gob shut and leave when the money or sh1t bucket is filled.
sounds like
bull**** as in Dubai they take a retina scan at immigration.

[SpamCanDriver]

sounds like
bull**** as in Dubai they take a retina scan at immigration.

Hence why he said "pre biometric days"

[Monarch Man]

sounds like
bull**** as in Dubai they take a retina scan at immigration.

I'm guessing you might need to get your retinas checked ✔️

[3Greens]

I'm guessing you might need to get your retinas checked ✔️
ha ha yeah. Fair point. Sorry