Virgin pilots

[farrari]

Many can not see the woods for trees.
Any Pilot, management ones aside, who have committed to Japan Flt’s are just plane dumb or greedy.
Here we had a wonderful business opportunity to negotiate some better options for ALL VA pilots.
And now with out any sign of a professional strong union the way forward is dead .
Well done , really.

[dejapoo]

How's the haemorrhoids?

[farrari]

Really , that’s your reply mate.
No wonder we are f at VA.

[WillieTheWimp]

In the words of Pauline…please explain!

[SixDemonBag]

What was the proposal?

[Ollie Onion]

Pilots don’t stand together end of, there is always an element who will sell the rest down the river for a better opportunity or bigger plane.

[farrari]

The last VA EBA was a shocker, near 20 % pay cut along with other terrible conditions.
70% voted for it.Why , the company basically threatened and bullied Pilots into saying yes, pilots voted yes because of this , some because they believed in fairies that VA would bring a workable fair bidding system, others well just plain stupid and for some a pay rise. Not to mention the AFAP endorsement of it why, they wanted WB guys back ………
So here we had an opportunity to gain some pay back, VA really needs to operate this Japan sectors.
Do I need to say more.
And to his credit, even our No one pilot DG , said don’t put your hand up for it AND any call outs.
All this does is undermine the Pilot group. 10 hrs this weekend is not the answer.

[Colonel_Klink]

Many can not see the woods for trees.
Any Pilot, management ones aside, who have committed to Japan Flt’s are just plane dumb or greedy.
Here we had a wonderful business opportunity to negotiate some better options for ALL VA pilots.
And now with out any sign of a professional strong union the way forward is dead .
Well done , really.

First post in over a decade and that’s what you come up with?

The Japan flying isn’t my cup of tea (in fact I couldn’t think of anything worse than a 2 crew 7.5 hour red eye in a 737), but I don’t begrudge people for doing it. I think any perceived leverage from this was way over stated anyway.

As has been clearly articulated by others, the strength of the Union has a direct correlation to the strength of the membership (which is also the reasons there is a strong case against different Union memberships!).

We will know just how strong the members of the Unions are in about 12 months if it comes to the crunch.

[farrari]

Well I will call it out , after 15 yrs at VA and some 50
yrs of flying, any VA pilot that takes call outs these days and Japan is a “ bum “.
And I said above, dumb and greedy and their own worst enemy.
Oh and yes it’s has been a long time since posting here but hell , we are so so f , it’s sad.
There is no race to the bottom, we are there.

[SOPS]

First post in over a decade and that’s what you come up with?

The Japan flying isn’t my cup of tea (in fact I couldn’t think of anything worse than a 2 crew 7.5 hour red eye in a 737), but I don’t begrudge people for doing it. I think any perceived leverage from this was way over stated anyway.

As has been clearly articulated by others, the strength of the Union has a direct correlation to the strength of the membership (which is also the reasons there is a strong case against different Union memberships!).

We will know just how strong the members of the Unions are in about 12 months if it comes to the crunch.

In a previous life, I have done 8 hour Red Eye flights in a 737- 700 with additional tanks. It’s not pleasant.

[das Uber Soldat]

Well I will call it out , after 15 yrs at VA and some 50
yrs of flying, any VA pilot that takes call outs these days and Japan is a “ bum “.
And I said above, dumb and greedy and their own worst enemy.
Oh and yes it’s has been a long time since posting here but hell , we are so so f , it’s sad.
There is no race to the bottom, we are there.
You must be fun at parties.

[Tommy Bahama]

There is not a group of people in the world (not just pilots but anyone) who are more willing to screw each other over than VA pilots. Nothing changes at that dreadful place and its always the same people who take the special deals while their fellow pilots get to deal with all the crap.

[A320LGW]

There is not a group of people in the world (not just pilots but anyone) who are more willing to screw each other over than VA pilots. Nothing changes at that dreadful place and its always the same people who take the special deals while their fellow pilots get to deal with all the crap.
That's global. Have been through a bankruptcy, any fairytale notions I previously had of pilots standing together under the union banner were quickly destroyed. It was a firm lesson in reality. Fellow pilots will sooner see your career ended if it meant they got an extra dollar. Have refused to join any union since.

[Deano969]

Well I will call it out , after 15 yrs at VA and some 50
yrs of flying, any VA pilot that takes call outs these days and Japan is a “ bum “.
And I said above, dumb and greedy and their own worst enemy.
Oh and yes it’s has been a long time since posting here but hell , we are so so f , it’s sad.
There is no race to the bottom, we are there.

50 years of flying, so very close to retirement
Not really understanding why you would make a big fuss over the EBA at this stage of your career
Surely you have earned a majority of what you can and you have your super under control, so an extra few thousand at the end of your career isn't going to make or break you
A person of your vintage should have an attitude more like
> Back in the good old days, before ATC and radar
> I still remember going sonic in a 727
> The Vietnam flashbacks are getting more vivid doc
> Why am I getting so many stick shakers and the FO doesn't
> Walkarounds aren't hard, it's just the long walk to the escalator to get upstairs that tires me out
> Let the young whipper snappers worry about the new EBA, none of my concern

[Captn Rex Havack]

From a pilot's perspective, what is the difference between 7 hours in the cockpit of a widebody vs 7 hours in a 737?. From Pax perspective, yes. But pilots sit in a seat in the cockpit., For all you know, looking forward, you could have a 737 behind you, or a DAsh *, or a chieftain. If its the size of the aeroplane, how do corporate pilots sit in the cockpits of Challengers or Globals etc on international trips.

Genuine question.

[Brakerider]

From a pilot's perspective, what is the difference between 7 hours in the cockpit of a widebody vs 7 hours in a 737?. From Pax perspective, yes. But pilots sit in a seat in the cockpit., For all you know, looking forward, you could have a 737 behind you, or a DAsh *, or a chieftain. If its the size of the aeroplane, how do corporate pilots sit in the cockpits of Challengers or Globals etc on international trips.

Genuine question.

for starters, most widebody pilots wouldn’t be sitting in the seat for 7 hours :zzz:

[WillieTheWimp]

From a pilot's perspective, what is the difference between 7 hours in the cockpit of a widebody vs 7 hours in a 737?. From Pax perspective, yes. But pilots sit in a seat in the cockpit., For all you know, looking forward, you could have a 737 behind you, or a DAsh *, or a chieftain. If its the size of the aeroplane, how do corporate pilots sit in the cockpits of Challengers or Globals etc on international trips.

Genuine question.
Genuine Answer—I can assure you that 7 hours in a B787 or A350 is nothing like 7 hours in a Chieftain.

[Shark Patrol]

Every man for himself - the pilots’ credo.

[Chronic Snoozer]

From a pilot's perspective, what is the difference between 7 hours in the cockpit of a widebody vs 7 hours in a 737?. From Pax perspective, yes. But pilots sit in a seat in the cockpit., For all you know, looking forward, you could have a 737 behind you, or a DAsh *, or a chieftain. If its the size of the aeroplane, how do corporate pilots sit in the cockpits of Challengers or Globals etc on international trips.

Genuine question.

You must be from the finance department.

[Colonel_Klink]

Well I will call it out , after 15 yrs at VA and some 50
yrs of flying, any VA pilot that takes call outs these days and Japan is a “ bum “.
.

This is starting to make sense - especially with the reference to the America’s Cup. You don’t happen to be a business owner too do you?

[gamma69]

The last VA EBA was a shocker, near 20 % pay cut along with other terrible conditions.
70% voted for it.Why , the company basically threatened and bullied Pilots into saying yes, pilots voted yes because of this , some because they believed in fairies that VA would bring a workable fair bidding system, others well just plain stupid and for some a pay rise. Not to mention the AFAP endorsement of it why, they wanted WB guys back ………
So here we had an opportunity to gain some pay back, VA really needs to operate this Japan sectors.
Do I need to say more.
And to his credit, even our No one pilot DG , said don’t put your hand up for it AND any call outs.
All this does is undermine the Pilot group. 10 hrs this weekend is not the answer.

I was made redundant from the WB group. For your comment about the AFAP wanting us back!!! It was in our EBA the one our group voted for, the WB folks...The narrow body guys voted the new agreement in...Not the returnees, I sense a little cyclical argument from you about the returnees, for one, how the whole group of Pilots in the WB/Regional/Tiger were treated from the union was shocking, I will never return the weak AFAP union again. Would you like a redundant clause early in your career, we all just cannot pack up and leave the country....
I agree with the Japan flying(should have been better handled by unions and pilots), but from noting who is flying those sectors are the ones with the biggest voices in the crew room to the flight deck about conditions EBA blah blah, are the ones flying the 8hour red eye home, have not seen a WB pilot yet do it.
Mate stand up and start picketing at Head office about the state of the conditions in person, what have you got to loose? 50years of experience should have taught you this medium here or in the flight deck isn't where you get results.
As for O/T and drafts, some of us lost our jobs, kids in school and all those life commitments(house etc) and not at end of careers with savings goals completed. Cost of living is out of control, we have to survive and work, not agreeing the current terms which I didn't vote in is great, but we all have had to make some sort of adjustment during our careers to fix the broken situations.

Lead the group mate, Im ready to fight for an agreement, we need a strong leader like you that has the guts to start an argument on PPRUNE about pilots.

[PoppaJo]

Pilots don’t stand together end of, there is always an element who will sell the rest down the river for a better opportunity or bigger plane.
Bingo. In a previous employer I overheard one executive laugh off ‘let’s just watch all these pilots screw each other over again’. The funny thing is, we did.

I’d really like to see the Virgin group to show us others how it’s done. I mean, what do you have to lose? American PE owners. They give zero fckus about you and I hope you also give zero fckus about them. Those Management pilots sucking off the Bain toes, wake the f up. Your Executive team will soon be sharing in a prize pool north of $100m. They and the Americans, will soon be out the door.

Your first challenge is to reinstate base pay. Not a portion of it, not most of it, the whole thing. If they are not accepting a 100% reinstatement, then let the games begin. Do not move on with any further negotiations until that base pay has been completely reinstated. Anyone who votes that down, should just resign.

[On Guard]

I was made redundant from the WB group. For your comment about the AFAP wanting us back!!! It was in our EBA the one our group voted for, the WB folks...The narrow body guys voted the new agreement in...Not the returnees, I sense a little cyclical argument from you about the returnees, for one, how the whole group of Pilots in the WB/Regional/Tiger were treated from the union was shocking, I will never return the weak AFAP union again. Would you like a redundant clause early in your career, we all just cannot pack up and leave the country....
I agree with the Japan flying(should have been better handled by unions and pilots), but from noting who is flying those sectors are the ones with the biggest voices in the crew room to the flight deck about conditions EBA blah blah, are the ones flying the 8hour red eye home, have not seen a WB pilot yet do it.
Mate stand up and start picketing at Head office about the state of the conditions in person, what have you got to loose? 50years of experience should have taught you this medium here or in the flight deck isn't where you get results.
As for O/T and drafts, some of us lost our jobs, kids in school and all those life commitments(house etc) and not at end of careers with savings goals completed. Cost of living is out of control, we have to survive and work, not agreeing the current terms which I didn't vote in is great, but we all have had to make some sort of adjustment during our careers to fix the broken situations.

Lead the group mate, Im ready to fight for an agreement, we need a strong leader like you that has the guts to start an argument on PPRUNE about pilots.

I’m not working at VA anymore but I’m interested in what the issue is with Japan? Did they need pilots agreement to do red eyes?

[BuzzBox]

From a pilot's perspective, what is the difference between 7 hours in the cockpit of a widebody vs 7 hours in a 737?. From Pax perspective, yes. But pilots sit in a seat in the cockpit., For all you know, looking forward, you could have a 737 behind you, or a DAsh *, or a chieftain. If its the size of the aeroplane, how do corporate pilots sit in the cockpits of Challengers or Globals etc on international trips.

Genuine question.

Noise, for a start. The cockpits of modern types such as the A350 are much quieter than a 737, and much less fatiguing on long sectors.

[gamma69]

I’m not working at VA anymore but I’m interested in what the issue is with Japan? Did they need pilots agreement to do red eyes?

they needed pilots to agree to a 5 day paring away from home
the maximum in the agreement is currently 4.

Hence the thread starter we should have as a group asked for something or improvements to allow this paring to happen. Which I agree with.

[slice]

farrari - when the East coast pilots did the Phukets they were 5 & 6 day opt in pairings, did you vehemently object to those being crewed that way as well ? I think in reality had no one opted in they could have crewed it as a four day pairing with some operational risk in the event of delays. The only demands the Union(s) could make would really only concern that pairing itself(as per the EA clause). As to the greater issues of a crappy EA, non-existent bidding satisfaction, low base salary etc. they are better assailed as a whole in bargaining for a completely new agreement I think.

[Colonel_Klink]

they needed pilots to agree to a 5 day paring away from home
the maximum in the agreement is currently 4.

Hence the thread starter we should have as a group asked for something or improvements to allow this paring to happen. Which I agree with.

Thats all correct. And for further information, the reason why it’s a 5 day trip is you either need less than 18 hours rest or greater than 30 hours rest after a red eye. The fifth day is because the Company is rostering greater than 30 hours rest before you return to home base.

The reason there isn’t as much leverage as some pilots make out is the fact the company were clearly adamant about commencing and operating the flights into Japan. If push came to shove and the 5 day pairings issue was going to cause any issues to commencing the route, they would have rescheduled one of the CNS BNE flights to depart around 20:00, and the crew from Japan would have their 12 hours off in the hotel after the red eye, and then operated the CNS BNE flight that same day to complete their pairing within the allowable 4 days.

[fencepostsitter]

Noise, for a start. The cockpits of modern types such as the A350 are much quieter than a 737, and much less fatiguing on long sectors.

Even with noise cancelling headsets?

[Trevor the lover]

Took four goes but at least Buzzbox gave an answer to Rex Havacks question. First 3 may as well have said "no difference that I can think of, but let me whinge anyway.". Yeah, chuck rocks at me, but only Buzzbox actually answered the question

[Trevor the lover]

We did Tokyo's and Sendai returns all the time in the 320 at Dragonair. Over 10 hours stick time. Wouldnt say it was pleasant but speaking personally, I didn't feel it any different from doing it in the 330

[SixDemonBag]

Not a good comparison.

Even the clamping forces on the a20’s are literally doing my head in after 4-5 hours. Plus you have a ‘60’s certified seat. Plus the bloody control column.

Give me the foot stirrups, quiet cockpit, side-stick any day of the working week. Except below 1000ft 🤫

[frangatang]

Funny how l used to do 2 crew, 9 hr miamis from lhr in a noisy 744 and the air headsets were crap, so l took my own Bose QR 15 ones with boom mic. Much more blissful. Funny how we did 2 crew jfks and chicagos, very unpleasant at the wrong time of year. Get on with working.

[Trevor the lover]

Oh my God. How DID you survive??? Yes, sarcasm applies

[non_state_actor]

From a pilot's perspective, what is the difference between 7 hours in the cockpit of a widebody vs 7 hours in a 737?. From Pax perspective, yes. But pilots sit in a seat in the cockpit., For all you know, looking forward, you could have a 737 behind you, or a DAsh *, or a chieftain. If its the size of the aeroplane, how do corporate pilots sit in the cockpits of Challengers or Globals etc on international trips.

Well put it this way. Try and certify that cockpit under the current suite of legislation rather than a 1970's grandfather rule and see how far you get..........

We did Tokyo's and Sendai returns all the time in the 320 at Dragonair. Over 10 hours stick time. Wouldnt say it was pleasant but speaking personally, I didn't feel it any different from doing it in the 330

Both those aircraft are far superior in pilot comfort to a 737 though.

[farrari]

Hell, it’s unsurprising that my post has become one about aircraft noise types.
F the type of aircraft flying to Japan, it’s totally irrelevant.
More importantly is the fact that Virgin went broke due to senior management not doing their job. Whilst all time VA pilots did at very high levels of professionalism and dedication.
Thank god for Bain, it saved us all. SA up didn’t, and they still aren’t Wonderful days don’t cut it……….
However my point is that whilst I respect It’s Bains business,, it doesn’t mean we as VA staff in any part of the business have to accept the conditions it wishes to apply to us. Bain is having a “ lend of us”. Any VA pilot ,who can now not see this are ‘ lost ‘.
It’s business nothing personal, we have a position to safe guard are employment conditions and opportunities. We have totally failed in this area.
Unfortunately Pilots do not have a competent professional Union to represent them. The AFAP are totally incompetent and inept.
My point here is Pilots need to see the woods past the trees and look to the long long game now.
I stand by my first post at the start of this.

[slice]

Well what, apart from ranting here, do you suggest VA pilots do about it ? Simply not opting in to a 5 day pairing isn’t really going to do anything. Many years ago there were a group of VA pilots who regarded the AFAP as totally incompetent and inept (they may have had a legitimate gripe regarding their performance) and so formed another Pilot’s Union that was going to blow the world away(VIPA). Eventually the reality of industrial relations as it pertains to Flight Crew in Australia became apparent and that Union now just sits in a small corner of the TWU. Whatever you think of the AFAP, ultimately it was VA pilots that voted up the current EA, although it has never been fully implemented due the sheer incompetence of the company with regards to the required software suite. Many are not accepting what Bain are dishing up, dozens have left for Atlas, Kalitta, National etc. Others are just waiting for the call to Q, a few have gone to Bonz. Outside of the ability to take PIA during bargaining the AFAP can make demands but equally Bain can just ignore them(and largely they have). Although this is somewhat perverse, you could be forgiven for a wry smile given that our OTP and cancellation rate is now the worst of QF JQ and Rex. It is a sign of sheer desperation when 10 credit hour drafts are offered to get people to come in. With 3 failed crewing software projects in the past decade and the current Sabre mess no longer supported by the vendor, the coming EA negotiations will need some resolute PIA to get any movement from Bain I think.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Trevor the Lover - Took four goes but at least Buzzbox gave an answer to Rex Havacks question.

Trevor the Lover = Rex Havacks = schizo

[chookcooker]

Thats all correct. And for further information, the reason why it’s a 5 day trip is you either need less than 18 hours rest or greater than 30 hours rest after a red eye. The fifth day is because the Company is rostering greater than 30 hours rest before you return to home base.

The reason there isn’t as much leverage as some pilots make out is the fact the company were clearly adamant about commencing and operating the flights into Japan. If push came to shove and the 5 day pairings issue was going to cause any issues to commencing the route, they would have rescheduled one of the CNS BNE flights to depart around 20:00, and the crew from Japan would have their 12 hours off in the hotel after the red eye, and then operated the CNS BNE flight that same day to complete their pairing within the allowable 4 days.

oh please. They wouldn’t have change a pairing like that to avoid paying a crew and extra couple of hundred bucks.

[ifylofd]

Well what, apart from ranting here, do you suggest VA pilots do about it ? Simply not opting in to a 5 day pairing isn’t really going to do anything. Many years ago there were a group of VA pilots who regarded the AFAP as totally incompetent and inept (they may have had a legitimate gripe regarding their performance) and so formed another Pilot’s Union that was going to blow the world away(VIPA). Eventually the reality of industrial relations as it pertains to Flight Crew in Australia became apparent and that Union now just sits in a small corner of the TWU. Whatever you think of the AFAP, ultimately it was VA pilots that voted up the current EA, although it has never been fully implemented due the sheer incompetence of the company with regards to the required software suite. Many are not accepting what Bain are dishing up, dozens have left for Atlas, Kalitta, National etc. Others are just waiting for the call to Q, a few have gone to Bonz. Outside of the ability to take PIA during bargaining the AFAP can make demands but equally Bain can just ignore them(and largely they have). Although this is somewhat perverse, you could be forgiven for a wry smile given that our OTP and cancellation rate is now the worst of QF JQ and Rex. It is a sign of sheer desperation when 10 credit hour drafts are offered to get people to come in. With 3 failed crewing software projects in the past decade and the current Sabre mess no longer supported by the vendor, the coming EA negotiations will need some resolute PIA to get any movement from Bain I think.

Think you have nailed it here.
Sad times.
Bains train set, but pilot groups (again) are weak, selfish (when it comes to any sort of solidarity) and represented (lets use that term loosely) by weak industrial organisations. (representative groups have never been more aligned with management in this country IMO).
At time when in the rest of world pilots are being recognised and remunerated IAW their professional qualifications and experience, Aus pilots sell themselves to the cheapest bidders. Like whores.

Aus pilots need to wake up, as this is a juncture in industrial history where they (we) hold the power, but are simply wasting it. Even sign on bonuses in North America are 6 figure sums. Just to turn up to fly a 50 seater commuter.

To add to this sad state of affairs, the operators (V and Q alike) treat not only their best resources - their staff like disposable nappies, but also their customers. In the case of Bain and V - it's private equity 101. In the case of Q, well it's just BAU in reality.

As you say, PIA is the best option, however even then, the representative groups (TWU, AFAP etc) are weak, and seem to find any excuse and warn their (financial) members more often than not of the 'risks' etc . It does make it a hard situation. And ultimately plays right into the hands of the companies. Divide, and then conquer.

Aus pilots need to just wake up, and place a proper value on themselves, draw a line in the proverbial sand, and take it to these tyrannical organisations.

[C441]

Aus pilots sell themselves to the cheapest bidders. Like whores.

….Some of whom earn significantly more than a Virgin Captain…..:)

[Lookleft]

Aus pilots need to just wake up, and place a proper value on themselves, draw a line in the proverbial sand, and take it to these tyrannical organisations.

This is often the quoted sentiment but how does it actually work in practise? When was the last time pilots actually took strike action and devoted their time to a picket line? The American experience is often quoted but they will hold up placards and actually sacrifice their time and their income to get a better pay deal. If you don't understand how the industrial landscape has been skewed in favour of the corporations and that walk off the job strike action is in fact illegal then you are just pissing into the wind. Pay rises have flat lined across all industries for the last 30 years.

[hoss58]

In a year say between 1988 and 1990 you know the year we don't mention IIRC this type of action was taken and depending on your point of view, i'm not sure everything went according to plan.

Just saying.

[43Inches]

Hence why Australia needs a proper pilots union that can represent all players, or at least an understanding between unions that no pilots will act as strike breakers. The chance of international ring ins saving the day is much lower as well, seeing that Australia has become a leper colony for conditions and regulator mediocrity. They can't even hire internationals to come here for normal positions, let alone those that know they will be hated by all and sundry.

[Lookleft]

I was specific when I mentioned strike action. Pilots can resign en-masse even today, but it will achieve the same result as that year.

Hence why Australia needs a proper pilots union that can represent all players, or at least an understanding between unions that no pilots will act as strike breakers.

Not sure what a "proper pilots union" is. What the pilot's unions need is a properly funded negotiator who can represent all the unions in any negotiations. One who is not subject to the pressures of being a pilot and who can negotiate with the client's objectives in mind.

[43Inches]

Not sure what a "proper pilots union" is. What the pilot's unions need is a properly funded negotiator who can represent all the unions in any negotiations. One who is not subject to the pressures of being a pilot and who can negotiate with the client's objectives in mind.

ALPA in the US is a proper pilots union, it's independent, it has industry weight that can not only negotiate terms but fight regulatory issues, like FRMS and safety concerns, as well as promote scope clauses and whatever else. Here each airline has its own union, which means the union is linked to that airline in more ways than one for both its own survival and the representation of the pilots. Which in my eyes is a conflict of interest.. The union needs to be independent of the operator, so as not to be influenced by the operator, and have representatives from the operators pilot body to ensure operator specific issues are dealt with.

The real driver of the pay rises in the US is the rules fought for by ALPA, specifically the 1500 hour ruling. I'd like to see a union here have the clout to change regulations for the better, so far we have been stepped on by everything from security to medical issues and I don't see much from a union front to really counter any of it.

[Slippery_Pete]

oh please. They wouldn’t have change a pairing like that to avoid paying a crew and extra couple of hundred bucks.

Exactly.

More fear-mongering to make the pilots roll over. The worst people in any organisation are those who act through fear.

”My mate’s best friend’s sister in law said they heard a rumour that if we don’t do five day patterns then we could lose Japan flights! And if that happens they might use foreign pilots instead. We might all end up unemployed!!! Won’t somebody think of the children. Let’s roll over and give them something for nothing.”

Pathetic.

[ifylofd]

This is often the quoted sentiment but how does it actually work in practise? When was the last time pilots actually took strike action and devoted their time to a picket line? The American experience is often quoted but they will hold up placards and actually sacrifice their time and their income to get a better pay deal. If you don't understand how the industrial landscape has been skewed in favour of the corporations and that walk off the job strike action is in fact illegal then you are just pissing into the wind. Pay rises have flat lined across all industries for the last 30 years.

PIA is the avenue, it's not illegal so long as the process has been followed.
The 'good faith' aspect of bargaining is all but ignored by companies, and unfortunately when a negotiation does, end up at the FWC, even the commissioners appear to take a softly softly approach on the delay tactics taken by the companies. (ie: there ain't no good faith in most cases)

In the end, and again the pilots hold the power (here and now) - there needs to be cohesion and decent representation, and then conceivably the change could be made. Oh, and also a slight bit of respect restored.

In a generation not too far from here, a late PM described pilots as nothing but glorified bus drivers, it's almost like the companies feel that's the case, and the concept has almost eked into the sub conscious of a generation of professional pilots.

Both the majors in Australia at the moment are essentially printing money, and continue to use the Covid 19 pandemic circumstances in their thinly veiled and threatening excuses for maintaining (aka : suppressing and retracting) wage growth. People need to simply wake up.

[Keith Myath]

Many can not see the woods for trees.
Any Pilot, management ones aside, who have committed to Japan Flt’s are just plane dumb or greedy.
Here we had a wonderful business opportunity to negotiate some better options for ALL VA pilots.
And now with out any sign of a professional strong union the way forward is dead .
Well done , really.

So what's your solution? Put your name to a letter calling for a boycott of 5 day trips? or just get on here and whinge about "the union"? Put up or shut up. But before you put up, you may want to take the advice of the union that you disparage, and probably aren't even a financial member of, and understand that any organising of pilots to boycott 5 day trips would be illegal and unprotected industrial action. Individuals can choose to refuse 5 day trips under the VA EA, but no-one, even the union can call for a boycott.

The union you so disparage has a plan, a legally enforceable plan, but if you're not a member then **** off.

[Colonel_Klink]

oh please. They wouldn’t have change a pairing like that to avoid paying a crew and extra couple of hundred bucks.

If no pilots opted into 5 day trips and that was the difference between operating the route or not, I guarantee the schedule would have been changed to allow day rest in the hotel in Cairns and have you end up back home late on Day 4.

[farrari]

Yes Mr. Colonel Kiink, , then say NO to ANY Jap flying, Mate it’s not ******* rocket science,.
**** me.

[farrari]

Dumb and dumber we are at VA

[Colonel_Klink]

Yes Mr. Colonel Kiink, , then say NO to ANY Jap flying, Mate it’s not ******* rocket science,.
**** me.

It obviously must be for some…..because If it’s a 4 day pairing you don’t have the ability to say no.

[TimmyTee]

From the outside, there's a very simple short term solution: just stop working on your days off.
For the love of the entire industry, please stop lowering the bar..

[slice]

Well TimmyTee, that had started to happen to some degree. The standard day off call in minimum is the greater of 5 hours or actual hours flown at the hourly rate. Over recent peak periods (Xmas , NY, Easter, School holidays) it has been increased to 7 and for 4 days covering last weekend in desperation it was increased to 10 hours. Along with a regular stream of mass SMS broadcasts to work days off, in addition to bouts of cold calling, the smell of desperation now hangs in the air🤓.

[TimmyTee]

So what is it as of today?

[chookcooker]

If no pilots opted into 5 day trips and that was the difference between operating the route or not, I guarantee the schedule would have been changed to allow day rest in the hotel in Cairns and have you end up back home late on Day 4.

sure. OR they would have upped the offer. You know like, 7 hour drafts. No make that 10 hour drafts.
but whatever makes those that took the below industry standard offer sleep well I guess

[Colonel_Klink]

sure. OR they would have upped the offer. You know like, 7 hour drafts. No make that 10 hour drafts.
but whatever makes those that took the below industry standard offer sleep well I guess

Yup that’s a fair point.

As I’ve said previously - I personally couldn’t think of anything worse than doing that pairing!

[Double_Clutch]

Its so great to see your back Farrari 🙄
More like a Datsun 180B but yeh, whatever you what to identify as

[cxflog]

Its so great to see your back Farrari 🙄
More like a Datsun 180B but yeh, whatever you what to identify as
Hey there’s nothing wrong with a Datsun 180B

[Servo]

What I find interesting is the level of personal attack that occurs when a fellow pilot airs a grievance about a company that reduced pay and conditions by nearly 20%, failed to implement a trip swap system and execs will be walking away with tens of millions between them.

Yet we infight for the privilege of working harder for less. Each to their own. Sad really.

[43Inches]

What I find interesting is the level of personal attack that occurs when a fellow pilot airs a grievance about a company that reduced pay and conditions by nearly 20%, failed to implement a trip swap system and execs will be walking away with tens of millions between them.

Yet we infight for the privilege of working harder for less. Each to their own. Sad really.

This is an anonymous forum, no-one posting here has to be what they say they are, a great many are not professional pilots in the sense that a lot of posters are private pilots or not working in the industry at all. Now after saying that, management at large corporations are very adept at using all forms of deceit to sway opinions, including pretending to be pilots on forums like this to create as much opposition to valid ideas that might get up in negotiations. Pilots tend to communicate in small groups and large meetings to discuss things like EBAs face to face is rare so management know the value of throwing rumors and seeds of doubt around, fully aware that pilots will readily pass on gossip without vetting it, and the lies rarely are challenged.

So when you think it's pilots apparently arguing against improvements in T&Cs, have a long think about whether they are actually pilots, and really what angle is the poster coming from.

[John Citizen]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x831/fb_img_1690009259794_bfd85c82d1efd2bb92919a38810197ca475c223 3.jpg

[Tabasco James]

Is Bain sampling the pilot group on what price they can attach to a day off payment by increasing the minimum guarantee according to commercial demand? Certainly 5hrs minimum guarantee is woefully inadequate for the role. Likewise buying back employee days off during roster build looks to be a signal of where Bain want to go.

[farrari]

Interesting I just flew staff travel on Saturday night with Phillipines Airlines from Manila to Sydney.
My economy seat was middle row 56 F , Hell . The ground staff there we lovely but as they were contractors unable to do an upgrade.
At the holding area I saw the. Captain and crew, I mentioned to him that I was a Pilot for VA holding a seat in Economy and any help to get into either PE or B class would be much appreciated. It’s an 8 hr night flight.
On boarding the CC , said come this way past PE to B class.
The FM came to my seat and went out of his way to warmly welcome me and provide me with any thing he could do to make my flight enjoyable. He informed me that the Capt would come an see me after dinner, which he did.
Does that “ respect “ for Pilots sound like VA. Does that ability for the VA Capt to look after not only our own but other Airline crew sound like VA.
We all know the answer.
Money and conditions are really important, at VA they are pathetic.
Respect for what we do is also important, Alex just put out an EM saying this.
Time VA for , if u talk the talk WALK IT.
Others do.

[Global Aviator]

Interesting post Ferrari, are you sure the ground staff in Manila for the national airline are outsourced?

You reference money and conditions are really important. Do you know what crew at Philippine airlines get paid? Terms and conditions and morale?

Not having a personal dig at you in anyway but you come across a little condescending. Not many airlines in the world that I’ve flown be it staff travel when I was crew or normal SLF do upgrades these days. I remember once asking on UA and they gave me PE and a row but no chance getting that last empty J! Now QF, if you are an interline passenger you think any chance? Hard enough I hear as staff travel.

I do agree that we should look after each other but do check facts first. Yes as a Capt I’d always look after / say g’day to any paxing crew from any airline if I knew they were on board. Do you do this on your VA flights?

The only country I hear and have not witnessed that do it right for staff is the good ole US of A.

Well done on the upgrade, by the way have you looked at what a confirmed business class Philippine airlines fare costs? Maybe next time save yourself the angst and book a confirmed J!!!

[Kenny]

The only country I hear and have not witnessed that do it right for staff is the good ole US of A.


They do. I was shocked but not entirely surprised at how badly employees treated each other during my time at VA. Now I’m back in the US&A I do everything to look after fellow employees and not just those who work for my mob. I’ve had the ground staff pull the jetway back up to the aircraft and open the door to get a fellow pilot on the jump seat, so he could get the last flight home.

[Capt Basil Brush]

farrari - when the East coast pilots did the Phukets they were 5 & 6 day opt in pairings, did you vehemently object to those being crewed that way as well ?.

While off topic, when “East Coast” (or should that be “over East”) pilots flew the Phuket flights out of Perth - there was no Perth pilot base necessitating the 5 or 6 day pairings. After the Perth base was established it then crewed the flights while they lasted. It was totally different to the current scenario involving Haneda.

Virgin were always going to get enough volunteers to crew the Haneda 5 day trips and they knew it. They didn’t need to offer any incentives.

[neville_nobody]

Interesting I just flew staff travel on Saturday night with Phillipines Airlines from Manila to Sydney.
My economy seat was middle row 56 F , Hell . The ground staff there we lovely but as they were contractors unable to do an upgrade.
At the holding area I saw the. Captain and crew, I mentioned to him that I was a Pilot for VA holding a seat in Economy and any help to get into either PE or B class would be much appreciated. It’s an 8 hr night flight.
On boarding the CC , said come this way past PE to B class.
The FM came to my seat and went out of his way to warmly welcome me and provide me with any thing he could do to make my flight enjoyable. He informed me that the Capt would come an see me after dinner, which he did.
Does that “ respect “ for Pilots sound like VA. Does that ability for the VA Capt to look after not only our own but other Airline crew sound like VA.
We all know the answer.
Money and conditions are really important, at VA they are pathetic.
Respect for what we do is also important, Alex just put out an EM saying this.
Time VA for , if u talk the talk WALK IT.
Others do.


That isn't respect it's entitlement. People pay proper money to sit in those seats, I'm pretty sure if your ticket was upgrade-able you would have been.

[morno]

Interesting I just flew staff travel on Saturday night with Phillipines Airlines from Manila to Sydney.
My economy seat was middle row 56 F , Hell . The ground staff there we lovely but as they were contractors unable to do an upgrade.
At the holding area I saw the. Captain and crew, I mentioned to him that I was a Pilot for VA holding a seat in Economy and any help to get into either PE or B class would be much appreciated. It’s an 8 hr night flight.
On boarding the CC , said come this way past PE to B class.
The FM came to my seat and went out of his way to warmly welcome me and provide me with any thing he could do to make my flight enjoyable. He informed me that the Capt would come an see me after dinner, which he did.
Does that “ respect “ for Pilots sound like VA. Does that ability for the VA Capt to look after not only our own but other Airline crew sound like VA.
We all know the answer.
Money and conditions are really important, at VA they are pathetic.
Respect for what we do is also important, Alex just put out an EM saying this.
Time VA for , if u talk the talk WALK IT.
Others do.

Wow, what an entitled weiner you are

[farrari]

Global Aviator,
I spoke at length to the check in staff , they are contractors like Swiss Port here.
And staff travel with them is only in Economy.
I don’t mean to come across as you say, l really like and respect Filipino people, my wife is one and her sister and sisters husband Pilots for Cebu.

[DUXNUTZ]

Not many airlines in the world that I’ve flown be it staff travel when I was crew or normal SLF do upgrades these days. I remember once asking on UA and they gave me PE and a row but no chance getting that last empty J!

!!!


Tagging onto Kenny’s post; the North American mob I work for actually have it in the FOM that the CA can upgrade jumpseaters himself - a hallmark of days that have largely passed.

An interesting note, on my last trip to Oz I flew VA domestic and was pretty late for checkin. Staff couldn’t have been more helpful, sending me through and gate checking my bag.

Kinda made me miss some of the few good things left of Aussie culture and the old VA.

[bb_turn]

After hour plumber $180 call out then $160 and hour, Its kinda embarrassing what you get paid. Just saying.

[Tabasco James]

After hour plumber $180 call out then $160 and hour, Its kinda embarrassing what you get paid. Just saying.

Yes. The pilots of Virgin have a long way to go regards salary. 5hrs for a day off is very cheap.

[PoppaJo]

Think long term, but act now.

In a few years time, Bain, will be gone.
In a few years time, the current Exec team, will be gone, circa tens of millions each
In a few years time, you will still be there.

Just remind yourself, the consequences of pleasing your PE owner are grave for your long term conditions. You have contributed your bit to saving the company when times have been tough, you have taken your haircut, just think twice when the next deal comes around, make sure you are lining your pockets, not those who-soon-to-be-departed.

I can see many people on this site later this decade ‘I wish we fought harder for a decent deal back then’, meanwhile the next owner has arrived and is already fiddling and tinkering around in the hallways.

[farrari]

Morno,
Really sorry for u.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I can see many people on this site later this decade ‘I wish we fought harder for a decent deal back then’, meanwhile the next owner has arrived and is already fiddling and tinkering around in the hallways.

Nobody says "I feel sorry for management, if we hadn't fought so hard for our EA, they'd be getting bigger bonuses."

[farrari]

Some one asked me what I thought we should be asking for in the new EBA.
Ok here is the main things we should have as professional Airline Pilots in todays world .
And yes this is not all , but the main items.
Our base pay for 60 hrs flying per roster , back to what it was before the current EBA plus 40%
The pay above graded on years of service, from 2 to 30years . ie each year of service you receive 1 to 15 percent graded annual bonus. There always should be a reward for “ Skin in the Game”.
The maximum flying hrs before any OT 60 hrs per roster.
All duty over and above flying time paid at 75 % of the time at the hourly flight rate.
14 days per roster off
Min rest needs to be 16.5 hrs. From sign off to sign on.That one is very important for Pilots health and wellness.
A 2 or 3 year EBA with 4% annual wage increase.
Stand by, paid for actual stand by hrs or hrs of flying called out plus stand by hrs up to call out.
Firm seat for commuters.
A paid day for medicals and cost covered by company.
Some thing more for those with caring responsibilities.
And protections for Sydney pilots re the new Airport at Badgeerys Creek.

Given the current union is totally inept and lost the reality of what Airline pilots should be paid and what conditions they should work under and many VA pilots have demonstrated their inability to stand up to the company, I expect 3% and one less day per roster is the offer.
The other mob may make some noise but they represent truck drivers, who themselves work bloody hard for their wages. I cannot see unfortunately any gain there.

[chookcooker]

“Our base pay for 60 hrs flying per roster , back to what it was before the current EBA plus 40%”

soryy, just confirming you mean 2018 EA base + 40%, MCG of 60?
so approx $330k base @ 60hrs MCG ?

[puff]

Some one asked me what I thought we should be asking for in the new EBA.
Ok here is the main things we should have as professional Airline Pilots in todays world .
And yes this is not all , but the main items.
Our base pay for 60 hrs flying per roster , back to what it was before the current EBA plus 40%
The pay above graded on years of service, from 2 to 30years . ie each year of service you receive 1 to 15 percent graded annual bonus. There always should be a reward for “ Skin the Game”.
The maximum flying hrs before any OT 60 hrs per roster.
All duty over and above flying time paid at 75 % of the time at the hourly flight rate.
13 days per roster off
A 2 or 3 year EBA with 4% annual wage increase.
Stand by, paid for actual stand by hrs or hrs of flying called out plus stand by hrs up to call out.
Firm seat for commuters.
A paid day for medicals and cost covered by company.
Some thing more for those with caring responsibilities.
And protections for Sydney pilots re the new Airport at Badgeerys Creek.

Given the current union is totally inept and lost the reality of what Airline pilots should be paid and what conditions they should work under and many VA pilots have demonstrated their inability to stand up to the company, I expect 3% and one less day per roster is the offer.
The other mob may make some noise but they represent truck drivers, who themselves work bloody hard for their wages. I cannot see unfortunately any gain there.

So I trust then you have either put your hand up to do better than the current union as a negotiator, or put your hand up to be an independent bargaining rep for the next EA?

[josephfeatherweight]

So I trust then you have either put your hand up to do better than the current union as a negotiator, or put your hand up to be an independent bargaining rep for the next EA?
I think these sort of responses are unreasonable.
Should everyone who has an opinion about the sort of issues they'd like addressed in an EBA do as you say?
I don't think there's anything unreasonable about a union MEMBER putting up their hand and saying "I'd like you to push for some of this."
I believe the current unions DO need to do better.

[On Guard]

I think these sort of responses are unreasonable.
Should everyone who has an opinion about the sort of issues they'd like addressed in an EBA do as you say?
I don't think there's anything unreasonable about a union MEMBER putting up their hand and saying "I'd like you to push for some of this."
I believe the current unions DO need to do better.

Agreed, but when they call the union inept then they should lead by example and stand up themselves to make a change. Very easy to throw stones from afar.

[farrari]

CC. Yes , as this would bring Professional Airline Pilots back to what it was many years ago, a level or standard worthy of the Job. ,but which has been eroded by the lack of a strong Pilot union versus strong unions in other industries.
Mate for a Captain of 737 this is not overpay against what is being paid out there in the real world of business, at so so many levels. The AFAP is out of touch here, they do not have the talent to take on Bain thus it’s up to all VA Pilots to tell them what they really feel and want re all remuneration and conditions to work for VA.
$330K in fact is exactly where a Capt on the 737 at VA pay should be in todays world here in Australia.

[farrari]

Let me say this, if we had Airlines that were well run as a business and smart Pilot unions , ie both doing their job AS we do as Pilots day in day out, THEN what I am asking for above would be unlike what our VA CP just said “ mouth watering “ possible and fair.
Hopefully like most of us I want VA to make money and be profitable, I want our staff to enjoy their work , be proud of the company they work for and feel good / rewarded within themselves day to day at work.
There are many companies that do exactly this , Bain under J is not one of them hence just about everyone at VA is unhappy , disengaged and holds no respect for J. So is that good business.!.
Hell some businesses now have parental leave for dog owners in their EBA, good luck VA staff.
Oh not to mention that some Australian unions are bargaining for a 4 day week at the SAME pay. That’s 12 days off per roster, with no weekend work and all public holidays off, makes our rosters look like crap.
We are left behind now and the future looks even worse .

[DUXNUTZ]

As an ex VA driver I hope you get what you deserve. Compared to the cost of living, anything south of 200k for FOs, 280-300k CA seems unreasonable.

[farrari]

So I trust then you have either put your hand up to do better than the current union as a negotiator, or put your hand up to be an independent bargaining rep for the next EA?

Mate a typical old fashion response.
No I haven’t.
How about all VA pilots start to jump and down , call the union and complain and put pen to paper . I do. I have spoken to DC and PL at the AFAP for years about this.
All VA pilots need to get active , vocal and speak up.
However having said this your voice is only good as the people representing you and there f******useless.That’s why we are where we are today.
Thats called a catch 22 !
We need a ‘ VOICE to VIRGIN ‘

[Red69]

Let me say this, if we had Airlines that were well run as a business and smart Pilot unions , ie both doing their job AS we do as Pilots day in day out, THEN what I am asking for above would be unlike what our VA CP just said “ mouth watering “ possible and fair.
Hopefully like most of us I want VA to make money and be profitable, I want our staff to enjoy their work , be proud of the company they work for and feel good / rewarded within themselves day to day at work.
There are many companies that do exactly this , Bain under J is not one of them hence just about everyone at VA is unhappy , disengaged and holds no respect for J. So is that good business.!.
Hell some businesses now have parental leave for dog owners in their EBA, good luck VA staff.
Oh not to mention that some Australian unions are bargaining for a 4 day week at the SAME pay. That’s 12 days off per roster, with no weekend work and all public holidays off, makes our rosters look like crap.
We are left behind now and the future looks even worse .

You’re bang on! Why would anyone want to join this industry now when you can work elsewhere with 4 day weeks, WFH, weekends/public holidays off and be able to manage your personal/family life. Additionally, you wouldn’t have to put up with management that have contempt for their workers as well as 6 monthly checks by austronauts.

Being a pilot was once a highly respected and highly paid profession. It’s now become a joke. There are many more industries out there that offer much better pay and lifestyle. The lifestyle is inexistent for the many commuters at VA.

A lot of companies knows how to treat their staff right. Look at BHP, RIO, EY, KPMG and have a look at their paternity leave. Generally upwards of 20 weeks. Then look at what we have.

Our agreement is a joke and continues to go backwards. Good luck to VA with retaining experienced crew if a rubbish agreement is voted in. It’s time for crew to stand up and vote for what we’re worth!

[puff]

You say that your voice is only as good as the people representing you - why don't you represent yourself - you can legally and are allowed to do so, without the union if you want ! Old fashioned but true - if you think you can do better, do it is my point !

The union doesn't vote on your behalf(or for others) tho ferrari - still needs 50% plus one when it comes to vote time. The crap deals you talk of, were still 'agreed' to by a majority. If your not willing to sit in the negotiating room to get a better deal, the least you can do as a collective is vote no, and be willing to do something (industrial action) to improve the offer on the table ! That might mean losing some $$ in the short term, which a lot are never willing to do.

The deal you get - is the deal you are willing to accept or be willing to fight for better. The union isn't just the ones at the table, its a collective of all the pilots, members and NON members, as you point out, the union and the negotiators put the best offer they can get on the table, and there is a VOTE !

Complaining you got a crap deal because the union is crap is like blaming the gym because you don't look like the rock, but you aren't willing to go to the gym. Everyone needs to go to the gym(not just join it), and put in the work to see the results. You all won't look ripped on the basis of the work of 5 people turning up everyday willing to work out for 5 hours, while you sit at home on the couch.

Sadly everyone wants the awesome deal - but for everyone else to do the hard work thats required to get it, and quietly blame the minority that work their asses off(in their own time mostly!) to fight the evil empires alone. Remember you as a collective - ARE the union.

[neville_nobody]

Good luck to VA with retaining experienced crew if a rubbish agreement is voted in.

Maybe Bain don't want that. Maybe they are happy to ''accept the risk"' of essentially being a GA operator in a 737 and wear the cost of training and staff churn.

You’re bang on! Why would anyone want to join this industry now when you can work elsewhere with 4 day weeks, WFH, weekends/public holidays off and be able to manage your personal/family life.

100% agree with that. THIS is going to be the biggest issue going into the future. The workplace has changed forever and airline executives still think it's the 80's

[PammyAnderson]

Well it will be up to the pilots in the end obviously, however it's not off to a good start. One of the Rep groups are kicking own goals. Firstly, saying they won't negotiate with the other pilot rep group in the room. (company are high 5-ing on that one.)
Now proposing Pay rates to the company that are not nearly enough. Line Captain - yr 1 278k, Yr2-287K, yr3-295 // Fo 181K/186k/192K. Seem to be happy to increase the OT trigger to 69. and seem to be open to reducing our days off to 11/12.
Seriously?
After both mobs endorsing the S*&% sandwich of the last agreement (Take a 20% pay cut - in exchange for all the lifestyle benefits of a real CMS roster swap/bidding/dump system) like nearly all other airlines have had for 30 years, which they (not) surprisingly reneged on and didn't deliver.... OH hang on, it wasn't legally binding in the EBA we endorsed anyway, expect for the pay cut part), this seems to be a face saving rush to stay relevant with the company and its members hoping the last EBA debacle is "forgotten".
Couple of tips to both unions : the pilots want 2023 conditions, not 2018
The pilots want an increase in all conditions, not some cost neutral agreement.( i.e - You have to give up days off for more money........ arrrrr NO.! You have to increase the OT trigger for a higher base,......Arrrrrr NO.)
Lifestyle / work balance is terrible atm hence why so many are leaving.
Work with the other union! as its in your members interest. Maybe call AIPA and get a copy of their SH Log of claims. Get hard binding standards for all things, like accomodation. (lowest standards in 20 years atm) Stop appeasing the company with sub par agreements that are non binding.
Certain people need to remember they work for the members.The members don't work for you.
- and yes I have told that directly to the Reps as well.
Stand together!

[farrari]

PAm ,
Nothing in what u have said about the Unions is unsurprising.
I agree with you , I hope all VA pilots get finally vocal and mad , time to tell the unions and the reps what we want as I have covered above.
Time for all pilots to get some passion and life in them and tell both VA and the unions what we want., time to have a life style for yourselves and your families, time to make your profession great again as it was so so many years ago. Time for some serious fairness for our work. Time to be proud to be a professional Airline Pilot , time to feel valued.
Tell that to the Unions and VA management.
Its really time for ALL VA pilots to use their , ‘ VOICE ‘.
Your reps and Union are weak , in fact pathetic.

[Angle of Attack]

Just go sick for 6 days straights every 2 weeks, that’s would sort the idiot companies out, medical certificates are cheap as chips these days!

[farrari]

I rest my case how useless the AFAP is and now the TWU, today we all heard how QF have been treating their staff.

Yet nothing from our Unions about what happened to us Pilots and other staff at VA.

[Ollie Onion]

Just do what my mates and I are all doing, if you want time off take it, sick or FTG and it is sorted.

[Trevor the lover]

Good one Ollie - just get one of your equally overworked mates to work your shifts. They'll love you for it Jacko.

[cloudsurfng]

Good one Ollie - just get one of your equally overworked mates to work your shifts. They'll love you for it Jacko.


they could sick it too.

besides, every airline has some of those in every rank that would happily sell their own kids to get an extra credit hour.

[farrari]

given our Unions and reps are useless, the only way to bring J to account is to collectively and targeted with draw your labour. And for those that say , they will get others to do the job, no takes a longer time to hire and train pilots than for then to lose too much cash.
Only when B realise VA business is losing money will they negotiate to what I feel is acceptable above.
Yes that’s asking a lot and yes I am dreaming, but mark my word it’s the only option.

[farrari]

Coles own brand milk up 20% in one year, need to say more about our useless unions.

[Ollie Onion]

Good one Ollie - just get one of your equally overworked mates to work your shifts. They'll love you for it Jacko.


I just don’t care anymore, over 20 years I have busted my arse to ‘help out’ and my reward has been 5 years of pay freeze, deteriorating conditions, an airline operation that has been decimated by our so called leaders purely to feather their own nest and leaving the operational staff to pick up the pieces and our reward for that is a standard 3% pay rise when inflation is running at double that in a year where the airline makes a record profit. Time to look after Ollie!

[slice]

Whilst there will always be a small minority of flight crew that will chase flying no matter what, I think the vast majority are fed up like yourself Ollie and “adjust” their rosters as they see fit. There is a sense I get that most are just beyond caring anymore.

[farrari]

Many Sydney Pilots need to ask their pathetic union , to look into the arrangements for the new Sydney airport re their work.
Other wise , some will be rostered to it with lots of unacceptable consequences. This airport will impact our time within the next EBA. Time to ask .!,,,

[farrari]

So 5 million So called Australians got a government pay welfare increase today , us Pilots who have taken a 35% pay cut since the last EBA pay for this.
The main component of an Airline is the aircraft, the Captain is the GM of that yet all the managers at VA have never never come near it .Like the union they are totally useless.
No wonder we are where we are today.
21.4 million for Mr J . That again should set the base for VA pilots. Do u get that 🤪
ps , many out there don’t know that JB got an Order of Australia for Services to Aviation.
We VA pilots are now so so behind many other Pilots and more so those out there in the general work community. Who is responsible, our Useless Union the AFAP.
The base pay MR A for a VA Captain needs to be $ 310k for 60:hrs FLT time per roster and 15 days off
And A it’s really not breathtaking Mate in todays work environment.
Working 90 hrs per roster to earn a decent salary is totally ******.

[TimmyTee]

What was the offered base salary fararri? What was the % increase over your old 2018 base rate? Imagine if the Roo threw the doors open right now!

[Transition Layer]

What was the offered base salary fararri? What was the % increase over your old 2018 base rate? Imagine if the Roo threw the doors open right now!
Seems like QF are still trying to find 737 FOs in Sydney and Melbourne…could help solve that dilemma overnight!

[farrari]

QF is said to take 60 FOs later this year , not sure if that’s accurate.
They are talking about 3 % increase only and may be changing the MCG and or days off.

[RobCl]

Who is responsible, our Useless Union the AFAP.

The AFAP is a democratic union run by members. If you don't like their direction get involved. You seem stirred up and ready for a fight, put your hand up (and your money where your mouth is) and get to work. To win this fight we will need all members working together, not sowing division anonymously on PPRuNe.

As Teddy Roosevolt said,
If I were a factory employee, a labourer on the railroad, or a wage earner of any sort, I would undoubtedly join the union of my trade.
If I were opposed to the policy of the union, I would join for no other reason than to help rectify that mistake.
If I took exception to a dishonest leader, I would join the union to help remove him.
In short, I believe in the union, and I believe that all men who benefit by the union, are morally bound to help to the extent of their power in the common interest advanced by the union.

But given elections were run this year so you could have put your hand up and the Virgin AFAP council has a forum available for you to post there and you do not, I would suggest that is worthy context for outsiders to consider when reading these posts.

[farrari]

Robcl,
mate been there did it on the 777.
What is needed is the AFAP to engage a real professional person or persons to represent the Pilots.
Those at the AFAP cannot do this, as has been the case since the the 1970s.
Bain is all over the union , and is continuing to do so into this new EBA.
Pilots don’t need me or other Pilots they need industry Professionals to represent them.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Robcl,
mate been there did it on the 777.
What is needed is the AFAP to engage a real professional person or persons to represent the Pilots.
Those at the AFAP cannot do this, as has been the case since the the 1970s.
Bain is all over the union , and is continuing to do so into this new EBA.
Pilots don’t need me or other Pilots they need industry Professionals to represent them.

Who are Bain using to represent the company? I.e. who is the company bargaining representative?

[farrari]

Robci,
Someone outside of VA would be advertising them at a professional level , who that is I don’t know.
Like is said above, Pilots need ‘VOICE to EBA ‘ and it’s not me ,it’s not pilots or the current Union people it’s a Professional industry negotiating Company, that’s why u pay the union.

[hawk_eye]

given our Unions and reps are useless…

I rest my case how useless the AFAP is and now the TWU, today we all heard how QF have been treating their staff.

Yet nothing from our Unions about what happened to us Pilots and other staff at VA.


Your reps and Union are weak , in fact pathetic.

Alright Chris (because everyone here that works at Virgin knows who you are),

Given that you’re not a member of a union, if the time comes down the track to take PIA, you won’t be lawfully allowed to, whilst calling for everyone else to do the heavy lifting…there’s a word for people like that.

And for everyone else playing along at home, the following is rather fitting:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/554x554/img_8044_6b417e8e7798c1eb5bd967b2a2d2a32fcbb02e57.jpeg

[farrari]

HE, that caricature was posted to me by a certain VA Pilot back in Feb 21, saying I should use this forum to talk. I still have his lovely post to me and further em. I see him now and again at work.
So I am following his advise.
And I understand the symbolism. It’s OK.
I apologise to any rep I have offended.
The best way forward however is professional industry people with connections, credentials and experience to take on B.
I will say no more and let’s see if we get any where near what Pay and Conditions VA pilots consider good and more over in line with what they were back many years ago when they were, excellent.
Oh I do belong to a Union .Have done for over 40 yrs Mate.
ps , Some one needs to get the new Western Sydney airport covered, otherwise , Hell.

[Jack D. Ripper]

Another incident in Perth last week.

just saying

[farrari]

Well , A and my Newington mate took away the general VA email access that allowed some real discussion about the 24EA. Well done D , u are a ******* disgrace to our school.
Now it’s zip., nothing dead gone , like the CC done and dusted without any real import from employees.
Where is the open discussion, where is the anything from VA re it.
Meanwhile hard working pilots HOPE for something, christ almighty better hope he comes.
Oh and homer/I boy I haven’t forgotten u mate.
And while VA made a profit last FY , which is good, they paid NO TAX.
Again without Professional EBA Negotiators this 24 EA will fail pilot expections. Meanwhile the cost living is up and up , we are left behind and other professions have done well..

VA captains need to be on $350,000 for around 60 hrs. That’s real life stuff in the real life business economy.

[rodney rude]

Wow..........think I'd rather stick my d!ck in a rabbit trap than spend 4 sectors with old captain cranky here.

[Xeptu]

Same issue for at least 40 years. Management know you're going to roll over, everyone is on board until it's time for industrial action, then the pilot group divides and screws over the ones trying. You are you're own worst enemy, that will never change, so glad to be retired.

[G.A. Boy]

Why don't you just do your command and you'll have your extra cash.

[puff]

Well , A and my Newington mate took away the general VA email access that allowed some real discussion about the 24EA. Well done D , u are a ******* disgrace to our school.
Now it’s zip., nothing dead gone , like the CC done and dusted without any real import from employees.
Where is the open discussion, where is the anything from VA re it.
Meanwhile hard working pilots HOPE for something, christ almighty better hope he comes.
Oh and homer/I boy I haven’t forgotten u mate.
And while VA made a profit last FY , which is good, they paid NO TAX.
Again without Professional EBA Negotiators this 24 EA will fail pilot expections. Meanwhile the cost living is up and up , we are left behind and other professions have done well..

VA captains need to be on $350,000 for around 60 hrs. That’s real life stuff in the real life business economy.

Just wondering if you could post some currrently certified EAs up of other industries earning this sort of money ?

[farrari]

The fact u ask me this if u are genuine, shows that yourself like many pilots are out of touch with what is being paid out there .
And that figure is totally reasonable if the Aviation unions in Australia had done their Job memberships pay for over the past 50 yrs.
Both the company and union is ‘ having a lend of us ‘.
Mate a domestic Jet Pilot Captain in Australia who is not earning that money for those hours is totally uncompetitive, period. Hell just ask your plumber or accountant or local Coffee shop.
And also importantly it’s about having a fair and reasonable time off to enjoy be part of and rest. Does that happen as a VA Pilot,! It does elsewhere.

[tigermoth_744]

Whinging here not going to change anything unfortunately….

[slice]

PIA will have to happen when it can be voted on in July. Everyone knows the company offer will be utter **** but they will only move when their revenue is jeopardised.

[JPJP]

Just wondering if you could post some currrently certified EAs up of other industries earning this sort of money ?

Sure. I’ll even use the same industry, flying the same aircraft.

Southwest Airlines new EA - A 5th year 737 FO will make $350K (Australian dollars). Company contribution to retirement account is 18% of gross earnings. Minimum days off is 16 days a month (15 in a 30 day month). Average days off per month is 17-18.

[framer]

Southwest Airlines new EA - A 5th year 737 FO will make $350K (Australian dollars). Company contribution to retirement account is 18% of gross earnings.
I’m all for Ausi pilots getting paid what they are worth which is more than the current salaries, but I don’t think that comparisons like the above help in any way other than to point out that change can happen rapidly over a few years.
For example, what is the difference between the above statement about SWA pay, and a scenario where a Vietnamese hairdresser posts on PHRUNE that Ausi hairdressers are earning 1 billion dong per annum and suggesting it is worth considering as a Vietnamese Hairdresser? Other than organising a move to Australia , the Vietnamese Hairdresser can’t enter that market and take advantage of those specific market forces. I suppose they could use the comparison to point out the benefits of stronger collective power of workers, but that’s about it. That’s what I take away from the post, Americans bargain effectively based on the current market so we should make sure we do the same.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Airlines making record breaking billion dollar profits.
Rapid growth (demand) for air travel.
Shortage of pilots (supply), yes an actual shortage.
One of the highest costs of living in the world.

Market forces are there.

[framer]

I agree GFR.
Are the market forces comparable to those at play in the USA? If they are then our bargaining power/ techniques/ systems are what we need to look closely at.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I agree GFR.
Are the market forces comparable to those at play in the USA? If they are then our bargaining power/ techniques/ systems are what we need to look closely at.


Depends on how you measure it. The US has a much larger industry but if we park an airframe for a week in Australia it would cost pretty much the same (revenue wise) as it would in the US. Possibly even more as their economy of scale would lessen the over all
impact to the airline. The question for Australian airlines is can they afford to not pay pilots those sorts of figures?


I completely agree with your last sentence. We need to back ourselves and empower our unions to stand firm, now more than ever.

[farrari]

Whinging here not going to change anything unfortunately….
mate whinging is better than nothing. We all need to speak up , A and others have taken that away.
If every VA Pilot did it , didn’t work on days off , didn’t cave in to the company , told the union to do their job , had the ability to be brave and had really good leadership from the union , then it would be possible to make significant gains.
And yes I totally understand why many are not in a position to be brave. The other half, home loans and kids to mention a few.

[neville_nobody]

mate whinging is better than nothing. We all need to speak up , A and others have taken that away.
If every VA Pilot did it , didn’t work on days off , didn’t cave in to the company , told the union to do their job , had the ability to be brave and had really good leadership from the union , then it would be possible to make significant gains.
And yes I totally understand why many are not in a position to be brave. The other half, home loans and kids to mention a few.

In Australia unfortunately it’s ideological. I am of the opinion that all airlines in Australia will bankrupt themselves before they start paying big salaries. If you had a “real” strike they would just cry poor to the government and get it shut down. A real pilot shortage will be fixed by Africans and expats with easy Visas. And in the end they would either shrink their business or shut down than start paying circa 400k+ narrow body salaries, even if this is what the market determined.

You can bleat all you want to the union but their only real lever is a full blown shutdown strike which in Australia has never really ended well as Governments of either persuasion are essentially pilot haters. Compare that attitude to the comments made from Labor Ministers about the Wharf dispute recently and it will tell you why Wharfies, marine workers and railway employees get paid similar to or more than airline pilots.

Ultimately it’s an uphill battle which will only end when there is a capitulation of an airline in this country similar to what happened to Republic and other US Regionals. Maybe then you might get some traction.

[Icarus2001]

A real pilot shortage will be fixed by Africans and expats with easy Visas.

This argument gets posted a great deal. How many SA pilots do you think are qualified and available to move to Australia? As to the rest of the world, only a trickle.

The numbers are just not there. Stay strong and believe in holding for a better outcome.

[Lapon]

Ultimately it’s an uphill battle which will only end when there is a capitulation of an airline in this country similar to what happened to Republic and other US Regionals. Maybe then you might get some traction.

I think the problem is that in the US you have several major/large airlines competing against each other for staff.
Australia really only has the two, and provided one doesn't blink first then other doesn't need to react either... and I dare say they both know it.

[neville_nobody]

This argument gets posted a great deal. How many SA pilots do you think are qualified and available to move to Australia? As to the rest of the world, only a trickle.

The numbers are just not there. Stay strong and believe in holding for a better outcome.

IF there was a real pilot labour supply crisis either due market forces or a prolonged strike and the government decided to waiver Visa restrictions for anyone with a ICAO ATPL they would be inundated with applicants. Just about every single country in the world has an airline and you don’t really need that many people in reality. Standards will be thrown out the window just to keep the show on the road.

[farrari]

The psyche of pilots must change re pay and conditions if they want real improvements in both.
This must be lead by the Unions.
Both the Cabin Crew and Pilots Union haven’t done their job. Why didn’t they join up last year to negotiate together better pay and conditions for their members.
Again because they do not employ Professional Negotiators.

[RobCl]

Professional Negotiators.

You keep saying this term. What do you think the qualifications of the union industrial officers are if they are not professional industrial negotiators? Dealing with EAs is the bread and butter of an IO.

[neville_nobody]

I think what people are inferring is that pilot unions go down the path akin to the US Pro Sports Unions where they get full time lobbyists and professional negotiators who spin a whole campaign and negotiation for you. It would include media and contract negotiations. Not sure what the likes of ALPA and Allied do in the US but I would assume they would be on the same trajectory. It would require people in Canberra getting in the ear of politicians and a bit of schmoozing. As we have all seen in the media over the past year one airline in particular has had a bit of a monopoly on Canberra lobbying.

[virginexcess]

There will never be a better time than now to go for the throat. With a weak labor government totally beholden to the unions, you guys need to press your reps for industrial action asap. If you miss this opportunity and the Coalition is returned, then who knows when the next chance will come. As far as i understand it, you don't need to wait for the vote, if the Company is deemed to be stalling, time wasting or just generally not being realistic, then a ballot can be held for industrial action. Hell, at this point i would find any excuse just to hold a ballot and scare the crap out of Hardlicker and Bain.

The main problem here in the Galapagos is that everyone thinks that airfares should be cheaper than their Uber ride to the aiport. If they don't want to pay for the service then F*** em, let them drive. There is a worldwide shortage of pilots that has no obvious soluition, there will never be a better time to try and drag Australian conditions back to somewhere on par with the rest of the world.

Just remember, it won't come easy. More money only comes from two things, supply not meeting demand and/or industrial action. At the moment the first condition exists, you need to create the second one.

I'm sure you're aware that the STOP/GO people in Melbourne are on $130k plus! As a previous poster said, get your TWU rep to really start rattling some cages and behave more like crane drivers and less like shop assistants.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I'm sure you're aware that the STOP/GO people in Melbourne are on $130k plus!

Got any evidence?

[farrari]

RobCL
I sent u my cell, but have not heard from you.
I know DC and PL at the AFAP. Nice people .
But they are industry lawyers not professional Industry negotiators.
That is the problem.
And just a timely item. The government is helping those who get caught in Bracket Creep, no need to help us as we fixed that !

[BravoSierraLima]

RobCL
I sent u my cell, but have not heard from you.
I know DC and PL at the AFAP. Nice people .
But they are industry lawyers not professional Industry negotiators.
That is the problem.
And just a timely item. The government is helping those who get caught in Bracket Creep, no need to help us as we fixed that !

A genuine question: does anyone know the names of any professional industry negotiators who are NOT aligned with the interests of employers? My limited googling so far shows businesses in this area are exclusively aligned with the interests of employers. Further to this, a previous post asked about US pilot union negotiators. They have broadly the same structure as here, motivated pilots stand for election and are deeply involved in negotiations.

If pilots want the full service package of lobbyists with preferential access to the left wing government currently in power then they'll need to be in a union affiliated with Labor such as the TWU. AFAP is course not aligned with Labor and as such will not receive preferential access to ministers and their offices, but might be more heard when the electoral pendulum swings the other way.

In reply to the post asking for proof of stop/go operators making $130k: Sydney traffic controller reveals she earns almost $3000 a week | news.com.au — Australia’s leading news site (https://www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/sydney-traffic-controller-reveals-she-earns-almost-3000-a-week/news-story/bd7154613835eaa7d15d3e1044b8459b#:~:text=The%20average%20sal ary%20for%20a,to%20Sydney%27s%20booming%20construction%20ind ustry.)

[Pucken Pilot]

There will never be a better time than now to go for the throat. With a weak labor government totally beholden to the unions, you guys need to press your reps for industrial action asap. If you miss this opportunity and the Coalition is returned, then who knows when the next chance will come. As far as i understand it, you don't need to wait for the vote, if the Company is deemed to be stalling, time wasting or just generally not being realistic, then a ballot can be held for industrial action. Hell, at this point i would find any excuse just to hold a ballot and scare the crap out of Hardlicker and Bain.

It doesn’t matter how pissed off VA pilots are, they can’t make an application for a PIA ballot until their EA expires… and it doesn’t expire until mid 2024.

[Mr Google Head]

It doesn’t matter how pissed off VA pilots are, they can’t make an application for a PIA ballot until their EA expires… and it doesn’t expire until mid 2024.

This isn’t the forum for such sound logic and factual information Pucken, move along 😝

[farrari]

This isn’t the forum for such sound logic and factual information Pucken, move along 😝

Unfortunately thanks to Mr A and Others this is the only forum for all VA pilots. In a Word ‘ Wounderful’

Not unlike SA em ‘ every minute counts’ . How dare u say that , get out of the ******* office do some jump seat flying and learn. And whistle u there , bring the loads of other mangers VA have who have no ******* idea what VA pilots and more so Captains have to deal with.

Any line Pilot at VA would be happy to have him and the ELT in the jump seat on a 4 day trip to prosecute this 60 seconds. NOT.

And now we have the head of Casa Medical Kate Maderson wanting to talk to us re mental health.
**** me , recently in December I did my 6 monthly medical because I am old, Passed yet Casa shortly after wanted me do a stress test. I have never had to do one. I tried for weeks to ask why . Rang Casa over a two week period , they couldn’t tell me why, rang Kate Madersons Bega medical office attempting to speak to her, guess what she never had the professionalism to get back to me. Finally sense prevailed thanks to our excellent VA medical staff and I never did need to a stress test , CASA ****** up.
Now this Kate Maderson has the hide to talk to us about mental health whilst her office Casa sets these outrageous and dangerous hours we can fly a 737 as pilots, **** me. Casa and VA wouldn't know mental health if they feel over it. Why because they never get out on line , they sit on their back sides in the office. Any one who runs their own businesses understands. When has any VA Pilot had Casa or VA Management in the flight deck and or jump seat asking.. looking ..,learning etc .

The system is broken both at Casa and VA head office.
Again where is the Union !,,
VA at present is about as interesting as the bloody never ending tennis, I can only hope we become , turn left ‘ Trump 780.’ Or I guess if J has her way ‘ Tennis 500 ‘

The industry is totally ******. for so so many .

[slice]

Much Anger there. Just accept that you work for a bunch of self-serving vultures that run a sheltered workshop for virtue-signaling twats with a large Social Engineering division. Accept that flight ops just go round in circles making the same fvckups every 5 years or so. Accept that everything related to the frontline will be under resourced, badly trained, and demotivated. Never extend. Remain completely professional in the discharge of your duties but beyond that don’t lift a finger to assist the operation.

[Ladloy]

Unfortunately thanks to Mr A and Others this is the only forum for all VA pilots. In a Word ‘ Wounderful’

Not unlike SA em ‘ every minute counts’ . How dare u say that , get out of the ******* office do some jump seat flying and learn. And whistle u there , bring the loads of other mangers VA have who have no ******* idea what VA pilots and more so Captains have to deal with.

Any line Pilot at VA would be happy to have him and the ELT in the jump seat on a 4 day trip to prosecute this 60 seconds. NOT.

And now we have the head of Casa Medical Kate Maderson wanting to talk to us re mental health.
**** me , recently in December I did my 6 monthly medical because I am old, Passed yet Casa shortly after wanted me do a stress test. I have never had to do one. I tried for weeks to ask why . Rang Casa over a two week period , they couldn’t tell me why, rang Kate Madersons Bega medical office attempting to speak to her, guess what she never had the professionalism to get back to me. Finally sense prevailed thanks to our excellent VA medical staff and I never did need to a stress test , CASA ****** up.
Now this Kate Maderson has the hide to talk to us about mental health whilst her office Casa sets these outrageous and dangerous hours we can fly a 737 as pilots, **** me. Casa and VA wouldn't know mental health if they feel over it. Why because they never get out on line , they sit on their back sides in the office. Any one who runs their own businesses understands. When has any VA Pilot had Casa or VA Management in the flight deck and or jump seat asking.. looking ..,learning etc .

The system is broken both at Casa and VA head office.
Again where is the Union !,,
VA at present is about as interesting as the bloody never ending tennis, I can only hope we become , turn left ‘ Trump 780.’ Or I guess if J has her way ‘ Tennis 500 ‘

The industry is totally ******. for so so many .
We can't bust heads like we used to, but we have our ways. One trick is to tell stories that don't go anywhere. Like the time I caught the ferry to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe. So, I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days nickels had pictures of bumble bees on them. Gimme five bees for a quarter, you'd say. Now was I... Oh yeah! The important thing was that I had an onion tied to my belt at the time. You couldn't get where onions, because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones.

[Olive00]

From what I hear the company has already come back to the unions in the last few days offering less money than the “eye watering” low November offer. Removal of most work rule buffers to their benefit, increase from 900 to 1000hrs, pro rata payments for working on a DDO….. oh and less days off of 11/12 ( 7 less DDO a year (although one of the unions is happy with less days off for some reason), and an overtime trigger of around 75, sounds like an awesome deal in a work wide pilot shortage 🙄
no wonder they aren’t updating their members.

[Switchbait]

Much Anger there. Just accept that you work for a bunch of self-serving vultures that run a sheltered workshop for virtue-signaling twats with a large Social Engineering division. Accept that flight ops just go round in circles making the same fvckups every 5 years or so. Accept that everything related to the frontline will be under resourced, badly trained, and demotivated. Never extend. Remain completely professional in the discharge of your duties but beyond that don’t lift a finger to assist the operation.

👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽

100% the only way to work for that dysfunctional mess of an organisation.

[farrari]

Watching the lastest Town Hall , there is no way any significant pay or conditions will come from the new EBA given the current standarding of our two Unions.
And most probably , it will be unsurprising that they go further backwards.

[non_state_actor]

Meanwhile DP World Stevedores just got a 23% pay rise over 4 years if you want to talk about “eye watering”

[farrari]

Meanwhile DP World Stevedores just got a 23% pay rise over 4 years if you want to talk about “eye watering”

No disrespect, but not eye watering.
6 % over 4 years is totally reasonable. Call it 25 add our 20 we lost plus another 10 to cover the last 3 yrs = 55 %
That takes a Capt to around $330 . That is what at a minimum a VA CPT should be on, for 60 flight hrs. My number is 350. And that’s not eye watering it’s what they are worth for their job.
But with our weak Unions Your Dreaming.

[DUXNUTZ]

VA pilots ya need to stand up for yourselves. I’ve heard there’s been some folks taking their lives lately. Sad times. Know your worth.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

VA pilots ya need to stand up for yourselves. I’ve heard there’s been some folks taking their lives lately. Sad times. Know your worth.

Not to hijack a VA post but these unfortunate events have happened at other airlines recently too.

Know your worth and fvck the psychopaths who run these airlines.

[farrari]

Any one know who this is.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1040x2000/img_7309_8d03fef95c29f20053b21dd75891d3cc5a96c0e3.jpeg

[Packvalve]

Sit on your hands!

PIA for IPO!

[chookcooker]

From what I hear the company has already come back to the unions in the last few days offering less money than the “eye watering” low November offer. Removal of most work rule buffers to their benefit, increase from 900 to 1000hrs, pro rata payments for working on a DDO….. oh and less days off of 11/12 ( 7 less DDO a year (although one of the unions is happy with less days off for some reason), and an overtime trigger of around 75, sounds like an awesome deal in a work wide pilot shortage 🙄
no wonder they aren’t updating their members.

“overtime” at a whopping 10% loading.

[farrari]

Message moved
.

[nomess]

F Me. The fact people are outing themselves on here. The place must be the pits. It’s bloody sad.

How the F could a CP just sit back. Fix the joint you clowns. So toxic.

[ConstantTorque]

Has the $175k for FOs and $270k for Captains been approved?

[Red69]

Has the $175k for FOs and $270k for Captains been approved?

Nope and not a chance that will get a yes vote. The starting point is 300/200. Any less than that and the company will find they’ll be heading down the path of Network. Unless they miraculously find a way to change sentiment and morale in the mean time.

[ConstantTorque]

Nope and not a chance that will get a yes vote. The starting point is 300/200. Any less than that and the company will find they’ll be heading down the path of Network. Unless they miraculously find a way to change sentiment and morale in the mean time.


That’s good to hear - last I heard, base for FO was still $130k at MCG of 57.5

[rightinitial]

Those are big numbers asked of the pilot group. Remember only $120mil made last year. We would hate to see a company with no money left to reinvest and grow which benefits us all or worse no company left at all.

[SilverSleuth]

Those are big numbers asked of the pilot group. Remember only $120mil made last year. We would hate to see a company with no money left to reinvest and grow which benefits us all or worse no company left at all.

what a load of nonsense. Don’t forget they took out 700 mill for themselves before that. Gave massive undisclosed bonuses as well. And if you believe those figures you don’t know how private equity owned companies work. The profit is what they say it is.

- massive world wide pilot shortage, broken pledges for a proper work/lifestyle CMS system in exchange for a pay cut in the last eba. A union asking for less days off 😳 and won’t admit they have cocked it up (yes they already endorsed an agreement for another mob when their own members voted no 3 times- same will happen here) an offer less than what they offered in November 😆, and the removal of most work rule protections to make work/life balance worse.
this will head the same way as Network almost certainly.

[nomess]

Those are big numbers asked of the pilot group. Remember only $120mil made last year. We would hate to see a company with no money left to reinvest and grow which benefits us all or worse no company left at all.

Which Management rat are you then?

[Red69]

Those are big numbers asked of the pilot group. Remember only $120mil made last year. We would hate to see a company with no money left to reinvest and grow which benefits us all or worse no company left at all.

Definitely management or someone who has no idea how PE works. What incentive does a company have in declaring a profit in Australia without our ridiculous tax rates? I don’t doubt they made well over a billion in profit but paid themselves healthy bonus and paid Bain handsomely. They restructured every contract during Covid, cut costs massively and charge ticket prices that are similar to QF. The completion didn’t have this benefit and made billions in profit. Money is not an issue at VA anymore. They just want to keep squeezing their staff to maximise their payout.

They have to understand that it’s the pilots turn now. It’s our market. There’s a shortage of pilots and airlines are hiking pay rates to get them. If they can’t pay market rates then frankly, they shouldn’t be in business, simple.

300/200 is the starting point based on current terms. If they want concessions, they come at a cost above those pay rates. They also need to pay for the failures of the last EBA. Somehow they seem to think that their non compliance can be forgotten about. If pilots didn’t comply with the EBA, there would be a lot of noise about it.

[framer]

money left to reinvest and grow
Thats pretty cute :)

[Chronic Snoozer]

Those are big numbers asked of the pilot group. Remember only $120mil made last year. We would hate to see a company with no money left to reinvest and grow which benefits us all or worse no company left at all.

To paraphrase a famous quote - “The greatest trick management ever pulled was to convince pilots they couldn’t afford their salary demands.”

[Tubman601]

EBA’s are not a trade session, you don’t have to give something up in exchange for something supposedly better. It’s all about building on what you have. Unions do what the the pilots want not the other way around, that’s what we pay them to do. Administration and Covid are over, ancient history, Bains making money at our expense. Stop believing in their slight of hand shell and pea game.

[farrari]

Well PD em was not unsupported or unsurprising. I understand and agree with it as would most VA pilots.
That cannot be said for VA mangers unfortunately , as they have little or no knowledge of what we as Pilots actually do. Why, because they never come to the aircraft to find out. How do I know , 1. I have spoken to many of them and 2. I never see them at the aircraft.
I do not blame them,, this culture is a product of two things, one most have never run their own business and two it’s they way our boss runs it.
And that person has the right to do so , but is it good business, I say no.
How to fix it.
Casa needs to change the totally unrealistic conditions that aircrew can both operate to and operate under., ie hrs and conditions.
Short of a change in our leadership, which could be good or bad the Unions need to step up and do their job which they haven’t for so long now. The job their members pay a lot for. I know that most Pilots are ONLY in the union because of the Loss of Licence.
Personally I believe the Avation industry in general needs a Royal Commission., for so many at home and wider reasons.
I was once told by a base manger not to complain as it will upset the new younger pilots, hell with out people like PD they are ******.

[gamma69]

Didn’t see your email Mr Wise from the current inflow of pilots voicing their opinions on the company email.
Prefer this forum as a more effective tool to communicate to managers ?

[farrari]

Gamma69 , you have me at a disadvantage you know my name but all I know about u is your application for Bonza, I have sent u an invitation to call me , would like the opportunity to talk. Hopefully you understand.

[hawk_eye]

Chris,

As someone who isn’t a member of a union, you’re extremely critical of those that volunteer their time.

Given what you’re advocating for in your persistent ranting, and the fact that you are not a member of a union, this means you can’t take part in any industrial action if and when the time comes to it. You’re asking everyone else to do the hard yards whilst you just sit from the sidelines throwing rocks.

The way industrial relations are structured in this country - you have to be a member of a union for your voice to count. Enough is enough - either put up, or shut up.

[farrari]

H eye, (M) I do know who u are. As u know last year I called you to talk about VA issues but you didn’t want to yet you continue here to speak at me and to re post the caricature you so graciously attend is me.
And just for the record , i was the one who first approached Deana and Pat Larkins at the AFAP some 13 yrs ago to get an EBA for the Pilots on the 777. All we had was a piece of paper for a contract and guys were getting unhappy. Tim Hoskins to his credit then came on board working with me and others and got a reasonable deal for us.
And yes I am in a union. I have been in a Union LONGER than your age Mate.
Over my 15 and a half yrs at Virgin I have spoken to every one from Board members to countless mangers , all levels of people in VA and yes PD recently. And I continue to do so .
Hopeful when we next meet I can have that conversation please, and I can elaborate on this and such.

[ConstantTorque]

Any update on Virgins position on the EA proposal with regards to Capt/FO salary?

[nomess]

Any update on Virgins position on the EA proposal with regards to Capt/FO salary?
I wouldn’t expect anything until a new CEO is planted.

And they will do what Bain tells them to do. I think this will be one heck of a fight, NAA will pale in comparison to what I think will play out here. And so it should. Go hard.

[Xeptu]

Is anyone else wondering when our pyramid scheme economy is going to implode. When I bought my first house it was $52000 a new car was $7000, these were the most expensive items you would ever buy. It was just 40 years ago and I earned $30000pa

[framer]

1983- average Australian salary $17,472
- average Australian house $64,039
- 727 capt Ansett salary $77,000
- base salaries for Australian chief executives ranged from low of $16,000 in clothing and footwear’s industry to high of $125,000 in metal engineering and car manufacturing industries.
Is a short haul captains salary still 450% of the average salary? I haven’t got time to work it out but it would be interesting.

[MikeHatter732]

Is a short haul captains salary still 450% of the average salary? I haven’t got time to work it out but it would be interesting.
ABS reckons average salary is $98k

So the answer to your question would be no, and no by a long way.

[Slugga]

Those are big numbers asked of the pilot group. Remember only $120mil made last year. We would hate to see a company with no money left to reinvest and grow which benefits us all or worse no company left at all.


Comedy gold.... The naivety of this is truly astonishing.
The unions over the years have really convinced their members just how worthless they are. And they paid good money for this.

[farrari]

Slugga,
So true.

And I see $ and MCG figures talked about in the ‘ Teams’ from both sides. 69 79 hrs **** me really.
Christ we are flying airplanes here. 60 hrs for a fair wage is it. And that’s a lot. People in Teams are expressing their genuine frustration and desire for change, but no one at VA management can make that change, it’s not A it’s J.

Any one short of 350k for a Capt with a MCG of 6O hrs and Fo at 66 % of this is mug and sorry just plain dumb. And whilst I do not accept Airline Pilots should have their Salaries based on performance or productivity ,6O hrs is very high and therefore a very good offer to VA.

If u want to work more than 60 hrs do so on OT. That’s fine, it’s your life. But u won’t make 70 ,!

The union as Slugga has said , for some 50 yrs sold u short don’t follow them.

Teams is like politicians all talk no action, ‘ A ‘ can’t not make or change its only from J ,and she has demonstrated over the past years that’s not her mamtra. Which is fine , it’s her business.

Thats where the union is supposed to be and add value to its members, has it !,,, NO.

The distress and frustration that VA higher management causes to not just Pilots but most employees is a disgrace, Union where are u .
The union is asleep at the wheel. ******* useless.

The duty / FLT hrs. we do in a 737 are insane. Mr Unions do your job. Listen to your members and non members. Spend some money,! Hire professional negotiators.

[directsosij]

Is anyone else wondering when our pyramid scheme economy is going to implode. When I bought my first house it was $52000 a new car was $7000, these were the most expensive items you would ever buy. It was just 40 years ago and I earned $30000pa

it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that this isn’t sustainable. The question is when, not if.

[Packvalve]

Like your numbers Chris - they do look appropriate based on historical data. It would be nice if the Unions set that bar.
As for references to your mates at Newington - it looses a bit of credibility on this forum - they’re ranked a very low 142 in Sydney, and probably have ethics no better than Cranbrook!.

[farrari]

Vietnam came along yet we won the ‘ Head of the river’ .
In 1971 if u worked for TAA , Ansett or Qantas u had a well paid respectable job, with a ‘ Wounderfull lifestyle, unlike today.
There is no reason why that shouldn’t be so today. The obstacle is weak Pilot unions, unions not doing the job they are paid to do.
Lets see what expires this year , I say zip the outcome will be pathetic yet again.

[Gnadenburg]

In 1971 if u worked for TAA , Ansett or Qantas u had a well paid respectable job, with a ‘ Wounderfull lifestyle, unlike today.
.

Actually, 30 years later in 2000, you still had a wonderful lifestyle and good pay in Ansett and Qantas.

Then Virgin Blue came along, pilots started paying for their endorsements and angry 89ers taking training jobs, for less than incumbent FO’s were being paid at the majors.

There have been plenty of opportunities to invest well since 2000 and survive the downturns. Hedging in the inevitable fight against inflation that eats away wage buying power. QF guys seem to have done it?

So get cracking! Not just investing for retirement but to be Bank of Mum and Dad for your kids.

[Switchbait]

Actually, 30 years later in 2000, you still had a wonderful lifestyle and good pay in Ansett and Qantas.

Then Virgin Blue came along, pilots started paying for their endorsements and angry 89ers taking training jobs, for less than incumbent FO’s were being paid at the majors.

There have been plenty of opportunities to invest well since 2000 and survive the downturns. Hedging in the inevitable fight against inflation that eats away wage buying power. QF guys seem to have done it?

So get cracking! Not just investing for retirement but to be Bank of Mum and Dad for your kids.


True story! And one that I have always found rather ironic, given JR’s role in “the year thou shalt not mention”.

[Australia2]

Despite your politics there is no denying the depicted events of that time and the subsequent effect it has had on jet airline T&C’s forever after.

IMHO the seismic nature of it lingers today.

Actually, 30 years later in 2000, you still had a wonderful lifestyle and good pay in Ansett and Qantas.

Then Virgin Blue came along, pilots started paying for their endorsements and angry 89ers taking training jobs, for less than incumbent FO’s were being paid at the majors.

There have been plenty of opportunities to invest well since 2000 and survive the downturns. Hedging in the inevitable fight against inflation that eats away wage buying power. QF guys seem to have done it?

So get cracking! Not just investing for retirement but to be Bank of Mum and Dad for your kids.

[BravoSierraLima]

Slugga,
So true.

And I see $ and MCG figures talked about in the ‘ Teams’ from both sides. 69 79 hrs **** me really.
Christ we are flying airplanes here. 60 hrs for a fair wage is it. And that’s a lot. People in Teams are expressing their genuine frustration and desire for change, but no one at VA management can make that change, it’s not A it’s J.

Any one short of 350k for a Capt with a MCG of 6O hrs and Fo at 66 % of this is mug and sorry just plain dumb. And whilst I do not accept Airline Pilots should have their Salaries based on performance or productivity ,6O hrs is very high and therefore a very good offer to VA.

If u want to work more than 60 hrs do so on OT. That’s fine, it’s your life. But u won’t make 70 ,!

The union as Slugga has said , for some 50 yrs sold u short don’t follow them.

Teams is like politicians all talk no action, ‘ A ‘ can’t not make or change its only from J ,and she has demonstrated over the past years that’s not her mamtra. Which is fine , it’s her business.

Thats where the union is supposed to be and add value to its members, has it !,,, NO.

The distress and frustration that VA higher management causes to not just Pilots but most employees is a disgrace, Union where are u .
The union is asleep at the wheel. ******* useless.

The duty / FLT hrs. we do in a 737 are insane. Mr Unions do your job. Listen to your members and non members. Spend some money,! Hire professional negotiators.

Where are these professional negotiators you speak of? Can you direct me to a company website, phone number, name of someone who is a professional EA negotiator?

[Xeptu]

Reading these last few threads it is the reason I retired early. Coming off the back of a 12 hour tour of duty following an early start out of an ordinary hotel, my flight terminated in a maintenance base, instead of signing off we had to wait 2 hours for technical service then pax home in the same Aircraft. Total elapsed time from waking up was 21 hours. Then I had to drive home 20 km's in the wee hours of the morning. I remember shedding a tear on the couch and saying to myself I can't do this. Management had the notion that a tour of duty was that period between days off. 16 hour split tours weren't uncommon either. I had never worked that hard in my life and it would be for the very last time.
Whilst I'm happily retired I am disappointed it had to end that way.

[farrari]

Do a geogle search for. Hire Professional EBA negotiators, there are many.
Also some Law firms do same.

[BravoSierraLima]

Do a geogle search for. Hire Professional EBA negotiators, there are many.
Also some Law firms do same.

I did.

hire professional eba negotiators - Google Search (https://www.google.com.au/search?q=hire+professional+eba+negotiators&sca_esv=6d943c4643ec31fe&ei=9VnqZaCHKPiPseMP68iRiAI&ved=0ahUKEwjg1bLZsuOEAxX4R2wGHWtkBCEQ4dUDCBE&uact=5&oq=hire+professional+eba+negotiators&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiIWhpcmUgcHJvZmVzc2lvbmFsIGViYSBuZW dvdGlhdG9yczIKECEYChigARjDBDIKECEYChigARjDBEiuC1CTBljICXABeA GQAQCYAb0BoAHoBqoBAzAuNbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCAqACrQHCAgoQABhHGNYEGL ADmAMAiAYBkAYIkgcDMS4xoAfjGg&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#ip=1)

Did you open any of the search results?

A quick scan of the results, ignoring any unsuitable results like ads, a Pprune thread, unions in other industries such as nursing or informational government websites shows not much in the way of negotiators oriented towards workers instead of businesses:
Enterprise Agreements: Specialists in EBAs (enterprisebargaining.com.au) (https://enterprisebargaining.com.au/) Clearly on the side of business, no unions listed in their clients.
EBA Negotiations – HR Gurus (https://hrgurus.com.au/eba-negotiations/) HR works for management.
EBA (professionalsaustralia.org.au) (https://www.professionalsaustralia.org.au/Professionals/Content/Services_Content/Workplace_Content/EBA.aspx) Is a union which does not represent pilots.
HR Professionals For Enterprise Agreements | Red Wagon (redwagonsolutions.com.au) (https://redwagonsolutions.com.au/enterprise-agreements/) HR works for management. No unions in their client list.
Employment Law Representation & Legal Advice - EI Legal (https://www.eilegal.com.au/who-we-act-for/) Clearly state they work for employers, HR professionals and senior executives.
Negotiating Effective EBA's - On Demand HR (https://ondemandhr.com.au/negotiating-effective-ebas/) Takes some reading between the lines, but they are advising businesses/management, not unions.
Enterprise bargaining skills training: making you the expert (https://enterprisebargaining.com.au/services/enterprise-bargaining-skills-training-making-you-expert) Again, read between the lines but the testimonials are all from business or HR.
Enterprise Bargaining | Free Legal Information | LegalVision (https://legalvision.com.au/enterprise-bargaining/) More reading between the lines, but written from the perspective of a business or manager.
Engaging our services - Australian Workplace Lawyers (https://www.australianworkplacelawyers.com.au/engaging-our-services/) No mention of providing negotiating services
Workplace productivity: effective enterprise bargaining (fcbgroup.com.au) (https://www.fcbgroup.com.au/news/how-to-get-the-most-out-of-enterprise-bargaining/) Results from about 9 years ago and business oriented.
Understanding the Pros and Cons of an Enterprise Bargaining Agreement - Key Business Advisors (keyba.com.au) (https://keyba.com.au/understanding-the-pros-and-cons-of-an-enterprise-bargaining-agreement/) Results from about 8 years ago and says "Business Advisors" in their company name.

Which law firms provide negotiators? Could you post the name of one of these firms please?

[farrari]

Mate do your own work , Call Freehills Law firm to start.
What I am saying is , the Union has totally dropped the ball they need an independent out of house firm to both work with them and importantly push the EBA to an acceptable outcome for pilots.
If not we will here ‘ oh we are working on it or yes we are aware of this ‘ in other words like our political leaders.

[Farman Biplane]

Meanwhile, they are dressing a dog in a Captains 4 bar jacket to use for PR/Marketing.

What is the implied message…

[Colonel_Klink]

Mate do your own work , Call Freehills Law firm to start.
What I am saying is , the Union has totally dropped the ball they need an independent out of house firm to both work with them and importantly push the EBA to an acceptable outcome for pilots.
If not we will hear ‘ oh we are working on it or yes we are aware of this ‘ in other words like our political leaders.

Freehills representing unions and employees….hahahahhahaha! 😂

[benttrees]

Where is this happening ? The dog that is.

[farrari]

Meanwhile, they are dressing a dog in a Captains 4 bar jacket to use for PR/Marketing.

What is the implied message…
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1342/img_1513_a25b18b4e445b3ba0925b540f938f6a5c1e57ee8.jpeg
this look will fit in wonderfully with our new seating arrangements which with the increased layout and lack of cabin divider looks cheap and nasty. They have really ruined the interior look of our aircraft, it looks like a charter flight now with animals included below and above deck.
What next??

[farrari]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_7647_f99c19bc6c6d48aa90378766a91aec2cf67f7416.png
This SC has the ability to be more than competitive with any HR and lawyers put up by any airline.
How do I know , ask me in person only.
Team him up with a strong union and you have the winning team.

[Chronic Snoozer]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_7647_f99c19bc6c6d48aa90378766a91aec2cf67f7416.png
This guy would eat VA HR team alive and be more than a match for both their inside and outside legal team.
How do I know , ask me in person only.
Team him up with a strong union and you have the winning team.

Wouldn’t you want somebody with industrial law experience?

[farrari]

His area of ‘ Expertise’ includes Aviation , Appellate, Mediation and Arbitration.
He is well versed in Industrial law and more.
His expertise is for us ; the ability at the very top level to negotiate the outcome pilots want, in conjunction with the union.
Make no mistake they are not cheap but lethal in them ability to get the results wanted.
The best analogy I can give , they are absolutely like you have never seen , amazing people.
And there are others like him available to help .

[nomess]

this look will fit in wonderfully with our new seating arrangements which with the increased layout and lack of cabin divider looks cheap and nasty. They have really ruined the interior look of our aircraft, it looks like a charter flight now with animals included below and above deck.
What next??

What do you expect? You are owned by parasites that are only here to make a quick buck. The place only exists for people to milk it, and milk it for decades to come.

Think of Virgin like a body infected with a parasite. They are well infected at the moment, surgery will be undertaken soon, but post op it’s still infected. That’s how Private Equity works, and that’s exactly how they want it. They will be ripping cash from Virgin for decades to come.

There are no ‘good ol days’ when you are owned by these people. Fight for what you are worth, but the place will be a circus for years and decades to come with plenty of snouts in the money trough. You think all this stops when they soon sell off, think again. They are involved as ever for a long time yet.

[farrari]

Well what next you ask.
After 4 days of 12 hr insane duties thanks to the complete idiots at CASA who allow this, I can report once again how upset VA pilots are.
Our Cabin Crew can now access on full pay , time to have a sex sex change. But not Pilots .
I had to deal with 4 days of distraught Pilots .
Again what next.
Since posting this next has arrived.
Our CMS project started some 2 .5 yrs ago is again dead.
But wait there is more, they are working on it.
It never ends , one can only hope our new CEO is astute.
**** seriously any Pilot here that believes in it OR any thing told to us is seriously …….

[turbantime]

I had to deal with 4 days of distraught Pilots.

I know how they feel. I’m in distress every time I see your name on my briefing report knowing I have to put up with hours of your nonsensical ranting.

[rodney rude]

Jesus Farrari you are a miserable piece of work. You really need to leave the industry and find some happiness - sounds like every day is just a bloody hornet's nest for you

[farrari]

Turbantime and R R , guys telll me who u are so I can leave u alone, or next time we fly have to guts to tell me. I expect u are both on my no fly list.
Mean while the average wage has risen by 13.8;% past 2 years , us 4 , after our 20% hit.
You guys above is that ok for Pilots.
Sent u both a private em call me , but expect you both don’t.
.

[speedjet]

Perhaps Farrari can have a sex change to make him happy.

[dejapoo]

Farrr out how Virgin's changed hey?

Gone from all out rampant sex at the Country Club

To

Sex change personal leave.

[farrari]

Some of the Va. Pilots above need to get a life and lighten up.
mean while I am way ahead of all in the the general topic area above. Ask me in person why.

[Mithzaron]

Any recent FO applicants able to provide a rough timeline on the recruitment process? How long after submitting an application did it take for you to get a response?

[turbantime]

Some of the Va. Pilots above need to get a life and lighten up.

We’re not the ones posting rants on forums. Maybe you need to lighten up at work a bit and not make everyone you fly with life’s miserable (and that includes groundschools where you just don’t know how to read the room and STFU).

[farrari]

Turbantime, hell you have changed a lot since your Sunnies days , when I see us next let’s talk.

[Dragun]

We’re not the ones posting rants on forums. Maybe you need to lighten up at work a bit and not make everyone you fly with life’s miserable (and that includes groundschools where you just don’t know how to read the room and STFU).

Finally someone said it! You hear it from the ground instructors, the checkies, the line captains - all dreading having to listen to him constantly tell everyone how he think he should be running the company to anyone who will listen. Meanwhile, if you're so successful why are you still here instead of retired? Couldn't run a bake sale at the local primary school is everyone else's guess. Those who can, do. Those who can't, rant. Didn't you learn anything from the Dunning Kruger module in last year's NTS class? You're perpetually atop the peak of the proverbial 'mount stupid (https://medium.com/workmatters/the-dunning-kruger-effect-climbing-mount-stupid-navigating-the-valley-of-despair-and-ascending-b22d37c1e6f9)'.

[farrari]

Hell didn’t realise I was so popular.
Again ask why in person .
I have the answers , trust me, you just have to ask in person.
And hell I can run that Bake Sale , make no mistake.

[nomess]

I think your point in principle is VA Pilots are underpaid, overworked, undervalued, under resourced on shift, and on an crap agreement. 95% agree with you on those points. That’s no trade secret.

Just be careful getting too sidetracked when negotiations really start to get heated. Dont get too emotional in regards to that 5%. It’s pretty darn clear the whole team isn’t voting anything in unless the pay freeze is pulled back plus other items. It’s clear as mud, you don’t need to spend millions on new lawyers, you will not find a more angry pilot body on earth. Don’t make this too complicated, the path ahead is clear, everyone knows what is acceptable to be voted in and the results will prove that. The large profit figure recently announced just made everyone even more angry, remember the dialogue a few months back, we cannot afford to pay this and that, we only made a hundred million bucks. The attempt to make out that a hundred million was about as best as it will get, was nothing but lies. The company has afford to reinstate the old deal, the proof is in the numbers.

Talking about seating layouts and stuff is getting too off track from what is important here. Stick to the above key points, and you will get a decent outcome.

Don’t blow off course folks. 3 months to run. I feel like you are rocking the boat the wrong way.

[anonfly]

Best and final……
Hows that for a happy Easter.
Guess negotiations are over as far as management is concerned :=
Proof will be in the pudding.

[farrari]

Any EBA based on productivity for Airline Pilots is at best wrong and worst insane. Pilots should not be on a productivity based wage.
They should be on a time with the company based wage .
Any MCG over 60 hrs on a pay rate for Captains of less than $350,000 is unacceptable, un professional, uncompetitive and so low in the real world it is an insult to their worth.
As I see it , my financial numbers are a dream.
Pilots out there think 65 67 for MCG is acceptable, for a lot less than my K.
Why are some selling yourself so so short and are ok with VA continuing to have a ‘ lend of you ‘
90 percent of the pilots I fly with agree, they are so over the poor pay long flying and duty hrs , generally now at near max duty with min rest , poor food , no acceptable roster system and most Management who are in the many but never come out of the office to the aircraft to see for them selves what is actually going on with the product.
Those here who have a go at me , are either just plain dum and uneducated in business or may be just having fun.
Again I invite them to talk to me next time we see each other, I will. Yes I do know who u are , which is fine .
U have a right to your opinion and voice..

[Biatch]

Why are some selling yourself so so short


Excellent question. Why are you selling yourself short Ferrari? Why are you tacitly subjecting yourself these horrific T&Cs by turning up every single day??? You deserve better…. I know you believe that, you’ve said so!!!

You don’t seem to realise the great contradiction of your whole position and logic. “I know everything”. “I have the answers”. “We should be paid this and that” etc etc ... All said with such blind gusto and arrogance as if you are some how immune to the same realities and choices that everyone else is. But you aren’t immune, you’re selling yourself short just as much as everyone is.

Perhaps it’s time to dust off the resume and apply for the CEO role that just became available… 🧐

[rodney rude]

Yeah Farrari, why sell yourself short?? Why not go for $600k....no $800k, no stuff it .... a million. You deserve it buddy 'cause you're good

[MikeHatter732]

Yeah Farrari, why sell yourself short?? Why not go for $600k....no $800k, no stuff it .... a million. You deserve it buddy 'cause you're good
While I agree some of the stuff ferrari says is extreme, $350k for a 180 seat skipper is hardly extreme when compared to the rates elsewhere in the world with similar living costs.

[Tabasco James]

Whilst Farrari may not articulate himself as clearly as perhaps he intends, what he is attempting to convey is largely correct. The day to day work conditions at VA will not improve and the only way forward for staff is money. A base of $350,000 for a captain would not be an unrealistic figure giving the responsibility and risk for the position. Whether this is achievable by the unions is the open question.

[Biatch]

Any MCG over 60 hrs on a pay rate for Captains of less than $350,000 is unacceptable, un professional, uncompetitive and so low in the real world it is an insult to their worth.

A base of $350,000 for a captain would not be an unrealistic figure giving the responsibility and risk for the position.

$350k for a 180 seat skipper is hardly extreme

Where are you getting this number from? Seriously. Whilst it is desirable, to me it sounds made up. Plucked from thin air. Without relevant local precedent and without justifiable logic other than “I reckon”. And just to clarify, are you (we) talking about base pay (no overtime) or are you talking about average usual take home pay at the end of the year??? (including usual overtime…. For example what the average line cpt would see on their EOFY tax statement)
​​​​​​​
There is no precedent for $350k base salary for a narrowbody cpt in Australia. Not even Q mainline 737. I’m looking at the QF short haul EBA and it states $245k. Given their MCG is 53hrs…

Further there is no logical arguement for $350k from the current $210k base now (@ 57.5 hrs). Even with the logic of an increase of MCG to 69 hrs bringing it to $250k on CURRENT existing T&Cs, how?? How is anyone able to argue for / justify an increase of $100k to the base pay? Again, I’d love it as much as the next driver… but in what reality is that possible?

The overseas arguement is about as valid as arguing that house prices in Aus should be the same as country x, y or z. So what?!? Different market, experiencing different market forces. I can guarantee you there are 737 drivers in a variety of corners at the globe that are looking at Aus with envy. The outflow of pilots has never been high enough AND long enough for them to worry about it. Further, the availability of ex pats looking to come home for their lifestyle / retirement has always been plentiful enough that the supply of pilots willing to come back on the apparent terrible T&C’s. That has always been the issue that drives Aus T&Cs down IMO.

[nomess]

You lot are getting distracted again.

You have taken pay freezes and cuts to help the company get by, those days are over, so it’s now time to return to the 2018 agreement and adjusted for the time that has passed. So let’s go back to the old agreement minus the pay cuts and see what the minimum would be today…

1 July 2024. 69hrs. Captain. The figure is 290k. That’s on the lower end of the scale also, inflation is a tad more aggressive since that agreement so it’s really much more.

You have basically backpedaled a decade if you don’t go back to what you had. The ball is in your court, YOU helped the company out when it was on its knees (hasn’t it been for the last 15 years though), time to go BACK to what you had.

Virgin has a lot of FOs that have had delayed commands due to the sheer corporate incompetence from this business over the last decade. Think very carefully about what you are going to fight for, haven’t you put up with enough in recent times? Protect your future and final years which have been cut short.

[Biatch]

You lot are getting distracted again.


mmmmm we’re having a conversation in the vacuum of space created whilst waiting for a tabled position to be voted on…


1 July 2024. 69hrs. Captain. The figure is 290k.

That number at least is arguable. It’s in the ball park of what the union are bargaining for… which was based on 2018 plus CPI. A rational, logical, arguable position….

[farrari]

Those here who are not across why my figures are not up to date with the mood of VA pilots , not up to date with the economy in Australia, not up to date with the cost of living, not up to date with what people are earning in Australia, not up to date with living a reasonable respectable and sustainable life as a pilot. Having both at work and away a comfortable and good life style.
I guess they are union delegates, if not they are plain dumb. How is our current pay and conditions fair realistic and competitive in the work environment. They are not, they are crap , working 70 to 85 hrs a roster to earn a fair wage is totally ******.
And as I have stated, my wage is time with company related , 350k is the time high end.
To them I say , my experience is VA pilots agree with my numbers and they want their respective union to do their job and deliver.
Thats what they tell me . And I ask, I talk to them, that’s me.
And is very interesting, those on the Union delegation once were very outspoken, now they are toeing the Union and Company line , why.
Yes I know why , again ask me not here but in person.
i want to see both the business and it’s work force successful , it can with the right CEO.

[nomess]

Can you tell us how you get to 350k? You can’t just go any Management with random numbers. Even the union will give you funny looks. Stop wasting everyone’s time. Yes, everyone would love to be on such wages, but that isn’t the focus, the focus is getting the toys back that got taken away. The future for this entire pilot group rests on getting those toys back. I can’t reiterate enough how important this agreement is to the current and future VA Pilots, to who don’t even have a license yet. This is the most important negotiation I’ve seen for a long time, needless to say, the short to long term prospects for this group, is pretty grim if you vote in trash.

When looking at 2018 with all the adjustments to CPI, inflation and so forth since then, at the top end it’s 320-330. And that’s a miracle result. The acceptable figure adjusting for the averages that got approved in 2018, is 290k.

So you really want this 350k? If you get the 2018 deal back plus average increases since, you will crack your 350k in 2032, and perhaps even sooner. If you accept what’s on offer today, you will get your 350k in the 2040s

[chookcooker]

Think he wants $350k @ 60hrs so at 2018 min credit of 69 that would be about $405k base. Where do I sign?

[TimmyTee]

He's probably still closer to that inflation figure than your management is or ever will be.

[Biatch]

Those here who are not across why my figures are not up to date with the mood of VA pilots , not up to date with the economy in Australia, not up to date with the cost of living, not up to date with what people are earning in Australia, not up to date with living a reasonable respectable and sustainable life as a pilot. Having both at work and away a comfortable and good life style.
I guess they are union delegates, if not they are plain dumb. How is our current pay and conditions fair realistic and competitive in the work environment. They are not, they are crap , working 70 to 85 hrs a roster to earn a fair wage is totally ******.
And as I have stated, my wage is time with company related , 350k is the time high end.
To them I say , my experience is VA pilots agree with my numbers and they want their respective union to do their job and deliver.


oh… ok… so you’ve made it up then. Plucked the number out of thin air. Great… gotcha. Thanks for your contribution.


Thats what they tell me . And I ask, I talk to them, that’s me.


🧐


And is very interesting, those on the Union delegation once were very outspoken, now they are toeing the Union and Company line , why.
Yes I know why , again ask me not here but in person.


no no… please do go on and spill the beans here.. love a good conspiracy theory….

[farrari]

Christ, some here are dumb and have their head still in the sand.
I really didn’t want to get into my numbers here , happy in person ; hell do u own research re wages / conditions today.
As I said 9 out 10 pilots I fly with and talk to agree with my numbers. A few here do not and I respect that, but you are really wrong.
An MCG of 60 is above the current level. As I said I do not believe Pilots should be driven by productivity , we are flying aircraft remember.
But I am a realist and accept the inept unions have put us in this position over many years.
My wage covers BOTH flying AND Duty hrs starts at 300 k for a New Capt and reaches 350 k in 4 bands of time to a 12 year Capt, which would capture the vast majority of VA pilots.
A band very importantly recognises both experience and loyalty to the business, something again our unions have forgotten. Something the company unfortunately does not want to recognise, but would rather spent time money on so many things that don’t really mater and the vast majority of Pilots do not agree with or want to accept. Hell we can all name so so many.
And yes I understand where you live and you background influences your expectations.
Some of live in areas where a nice resident cost 2 million, some 20 or more Million.
Thats really not relevant, wages do not depend on your post code , they depend on your work.
Pilots have been undersold now for over some 50 yrs by unions and employers.
Those I fly with and talk to have had enough, they SAY they really want change. I hope so.
My numbers make us Pilots competitive again.
And again to those here who don’t get it , some who are with VA and others who are not ( RR) I say Mate you are so out of touch it beggars belief.

[Biatch]

Yep… so made up then. Got it. Thanks.

[chookcooker]

Im tipping those whom you speak to and agree with you are just trying to get you to STFU so their day becomes 10% less ****

[cxflog]

Christ, some here are dumb and have their head still in the sand.

Bit of a hypocrite eh?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Pilots have been undersold now for over some 50 yrs by unions and employers.
I'd say that numbers used over a period of 50 years (ie getting towards half the life time of commercial aviation) would more likely actually represent the agreed going rate, irrespective of whether you agree with it or not.

[farrari]

At least I can say my conversation has got some talking, we are in April 2 months till our current crap EBA expires yet very little or no talk from the company.
My bet is Trump is re elected and our new EBA is terrible.

[Double_Clutch]

Sorry Chris, your day was yesterday

[Saintly]

Speaking of VA:

Earlier today Virgin Australia flight VA1845 (VH-YVD): landing gear failed to retract, they’ve fixed IT midair but been advised to return to PER/YPPH. The aircraft is 3 tonnes over weight so they have to circle for an hour and a half to burn fuel prior to landing. Has landed back in PER, good result.

[volare_737]

Just a quick question for the VA fundies !!! To get on the 320s in Perth, is it the same application and interview process as the one for Virgin Australia ? Any pointers would be great !!

[Gas Chamber]

Any EBA based on productivity for Airline Pilots is at best wrong and worst insane. Pilots should not be on a productivity based wage.
They should be on a time with the company based wage .
Any MCG over 60 hrs on a pay rate for Captains of less than $350,000 is unacceptable, un professional, uncompetitive and so low in the real world it is an insult to their worth.
As I see it , my financial numbers are a dream.
Pilots out there think 65 67 for MCG is acceptable, for a lot less than my K.
Why are some selling yourself so so short and are ok with VA continuing to have a ‘ lend of you ‘
90 percent of the pilots I fly with agree, they are so over the poor pay long flying and duty hrs , generally now at near max duty with min rest , poor food , no acceptable roster system and most Management who are in the many but never come out of the office to the aircraft to see for them selves what is actually going on with the product.
Those here who have a go at me , are either just plain dum and uneducated in business or may be just having fun.
Again I invite them to talk to me next time we see each other, I will. Yes I do know who u are , which is fine .
U have a right to your opinion and voice..

Learn to spell dumb…and maybe do a course in basic grammar. 🙄

[Gas Chamber]

You lot are getting distracted again.

You have taken pay freezes and cuts to help the company get by, those days are over, so it’s now time to return to the 2018 agreement and adjusted for the time that has passed. So let’s go back to the old agreement minus the pay cuts and see what the minimum would be today…

1 July 2024. 69hrs. Captain. The figure is 290k. That’s on the lower end of the scale also, inflation is a tad more aggressive since that agreement so it’s really much more.

You have basically backpedaled a decade if you don’t go back to what you had. The ball is in your court, YOU helped the company out when it was on its knees (hasn’t it been for the last 15 years though), time to go BACK to what you had.

Virgin has a lot of FOs that have had delayed commands due to the sheer corporate incompetence from this business over the last decade. Think very carefully about what you are going to fight for, haven’t you put up with enough in recent times? Protect your future and final years which have been cut short.

EXACTLY. Well said. And that should be the union’s minimum position.
QF are coming up for negotiations, so let’s all just go PIA together. 👍🏽

[farrari]

Well it looks like my prediction is coming true.
Trump in, our EBA once again CRAP.
Dunm and Dummmmer .

[nomess]

Well it looks like my prediction is coming true.
Trump in, our EBA once again CRAP.
Dunm and Dummmmer .

You actually create division with your comments, not sure if you have noticed that yet. I somewhat think you like creating division.

What is a good deal to most, is a deal that reinstates what has been lost, with appropriate adjustments for the years passed, will likely be a crap deal to you, but it’s a good deal for the group and more importantly, the future of the entire group.

You are not in the position as a group to negotiate in half a million dollar salaries as you claim above. You are in the position, to negotiate back in what you gave back to the company so it could survive. You want to know what a crap deal is? Anything less than that.

There is an average deal (Think Rex 737), a Good Deal (2018 reinstated plus time passed) and a Chris Deal.

I think I know what deal everyone is realistically after out of those three. It’s not the first one and certainly not the last. You need to be more realistic and understand the hole you are in, the focus this time round is simply pulling back what was taken away.

That will be a big challenge in itself, but it can be done, and it will be done.

[farrari]

Mate the so called ‘ take it or leave deal ,’ is absolute crap, I just did a 5 day trip of crap,. 12 hrs duties min rest.
Not one Captain or FO thinks differently re the offer. It’s a disgrace, it’s an insult, it’s professionally unacceptable, uncompetitive and more over bad business.
Not one of around 25 Pilots I spoke over 5 days would vote it up. They all say it’s absolutely unacceptable and tell me they have no confidence in our delegates or the two unions.
i want a EA that looks after Pilots , individuals and families. An EA that is fair , good for employees and the company.
And that is how it is .
The few here who have a go at me are TOTALLY in the minority re this, and are in some other universe.
Again I say , you are some union delegates as I know.
We are going to end up with a ‘ CRAP ‘ EA , once again. Take it or leave it ,it’s our last offer , Pathetic.
Christ , pilots do their job very very well that can not be said for many areas of the company mostly at head office who live in dream land.

[SilverSleuth]

Well as long as no union is advocating to reduce your pilot terms and conditions as the rumour goes.
Shirley you can’t be serious! we wait and see, however:

- current days off a roster 12 / 13 (if under 65 hours)
*rumoured 11/12 days off (11 off during all peak times such as Christmas) reduction of min 6 a year more if your under 65 for the roster.
- this is massive reduction in T&C. No pilot or pilot union would go for that…. would they?

- reduction in leave availability during all peaks also??
so even less chance to have Christmas or any school holidays with family…… Shirley not ???

concessions to work rules that have you working longer? with less breaks/buffers between duties even though the promised CMS (to give a better work/lifestyle balance) which was given in exchange for a pay cut last EBA has been completely cancelled.
Shirley you can’t be serious???

Reduction in DDO payments when past midnight???
shirley not????
Plus much more (as rumoured.)
I guess we will see, but I don’t believe any pilot union would support such a thing and give principle support for their own members to vote it down (twice)….
- btw Allowances (DTA) are not your pay!!!
and a 10K retention bonus after tax is what $100 bucks a week or so??
🤦🏼🤦🏼🤦🏼
Don’t under value yourselves. Pressure is on the company now, Expiry approaching, a sale coming.
Don’t under value yourselves.

[nomess]

We are going to end up with a ‘ CRAP ‘ EA , once again. Take it or leave it ,it’s our last offer , **** u.
Ease up..

Have you never been of a negotiation before? It’s standard stuff. Take it or leave it is just another tactic from any business to force the troops to sign. Seen that a million times. Stop getting so emotional over such claims. That’s what any company wants after putting out such dribble, they want you to roll over, and just sign, here you go, this is all we have, just sign, over here, please please, just sign.

The thing is, they won’t be taking it. Virgin pilots ain’t stupid mate. They are very angry and frustrated. Last offer? Thanks for the laugh. Pre EBA expiry is just the pre match entertainment.

[Packvalve]

I think both parties are delusional if they don’t think $300k/200k with 69hrs is reasonable.

Typically, Domestic 69hrs flying is around 150hrs duty these days, It’s not commutable even with 12 DDO’s.
Reckon with the amount of anger at the moment, most have already committed to PIA regardless of what Bain will offer.

[No Idea Either]

Hey Nomess

‘Pulling back what was taken away’ is a grave mistake. We have had 20 years of ‘taken away’. The industrial climate is finally in our favour, I would personally like to ‘pull back’ the last 30 years. Ain’t gonna happen, but let’s not undersell ourselves. Let’s not forget the magic of compound interest for anyone under the age of 40, what you give up or fail to realise now will be very expensive in the long run. And as for the ‘coolaid’, Bain have made their money back already and VA was always going to be recycled as a narrow body domestic op, there were about 20 entities interested during the admin. I have had these conversations with Chris and whilst I am not ‘all in’, he has some merit. Again……let’s not undersell ourselves. The tide will change eventually, we should take advantage of the current climate…….do you think if the shoe was on the other foot they would let it slide………not…a….chance…in…hell.

[gamma69]

The last VA EBA was a shocker, near 20 % pay cut along with other terrible conditions.
70% voted for it.Why , the company basically threatened and bullied Pilots into saying yes, pilots voted yes because of this , some because they believed in fairies that VA would bring a workable fair bidding system, others well just plain stupid and for some a pay rise. Not to mention the AFAP endorsement of it why, they wanted WB guys back ………
So here we had an opportunity to gain some pay back, VA really needs to operate this Japan sectors.
Do I need to say more.
And to his credit, even our No one pilot DG , said don’t put your hand up for it AND any call outs.
All this does is undermine the Pilot group. 10 hrs this weekend is not the answer.

Mate the so called ‘ take it or leave deal ,’ is absolute crap, I just did a 5 day trip of crap,. 12 hrs duties min rest.
Not one Captain or FO thinks differently re the offer. It’s a disgrace, it’s an insult, it’s professionally unacceptable, uncompetitive and more over bad business.
Not one of around 25 Pilots I spoke over 5 days would vote it up. They all say it’s absolutely unacceptable and tell me they have no confidence in our delegates or the two unions.
i want a EA that looks after Pilots , individuals and families. An EA that is fair , good for employees and the company.
And that is how it is .
The few here who have a go at me are TOTALLY in the minority re this, and are in some other universe.
Again I say , you are some union delegates as I know.
We are going to end up with a ‘ CRAP ‘ EA , once again. Take it or leave it ,it’s our last offer , Pathetic.
Christ , pilots do their job very very well that can not be said for many areas of the company mostly at head office who live in dream land.

Five days of crap? 5 days is a opt in... So you have an opted in ? You are supporting the cause by doing the 5 day trip...

[chimbu warrior]

I think both parties are delusional if they don’t think $300k/200k with 69hrs is reasonable.

https://www.seek.com.au/job/75054984?ref=search-standalone&type=standard#sol=17c60a577852b58864179bb48e409d46f1967293

​​​​​​​Looks like another operator (possibly a NZ-based freight operator) is willing to pay up. Minimum $210k + super for an FO.

[farrari]

Gamma69,
No mate it was rostered. 5 days 3nts away Domestic only. In 15 and a half yrs I have never worked on a day off or done a call out.
5 day trip , meaning working five days in a row , with 3 over nights . Totally insane .
As I have posted in TEAMS , that useless site we have been relegated to, I do hope a new CEO sees all this and holds many to account,!

[chookcooker]

So not a five day trip then.

[gamma69]

Choice of words then, 5 day trip, in virgin language is that, 5 days four nights away from home base, 15 years in virgin should mean you know the guff.

Using the pointless spout of Teams will get nowhere, like PPRune.

[farrari]

Well I said the new EA would be crap and it is.
its all smoke and mirrors.
An FO no matter how long they have been with the company , so no reward for time served = experience and Loyalty, will be on 186K that is just about exactly what it would have been if you start on 155k as it was July 2019 and indexed 3% 2020, 3% 2021, 3% 2022, 4% 23 and 4.6% 24.
Mind you the actual BASE is only 175k
So no REAL increase in pay only the status from 2019. Pilots pay need a REAL increase of at least 20 % = FO around 230k. And that pay on an MCG no more than 60 , 13 days off and min rest 15 hrs. Captains Pay same on their base.
This EA will further increase fatigue levels and further reduce life style ones.
Also to achieve that pay the average Hrs per roster will be up 17.5% from 57.5 to 67.5.
So to achieve what is in effect our pay indexed from the 2018 EA one must work 17.5 % more than the current EA and even more from the 2018 EA.
And why do continue to accept no pay for time outside of flight hrs, when we do the flight plan , set up the aircraft, walk around etc it’s on us free. All duty time should attract pay. Full Stop . The TWU and Shipping awards do just that to name a few. The company continues to ,’ have a lend of us ‘.
In a world where many companies are increasing pay yet cutting hrs, we are doing the opposite.
And we are losing days off .
I expect more to follow.
ps, I will put money on it that this con works and it’s unfortunately Voted up.
However I hope the smart pilots send a message to their union and delegates that this EA is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

[Icarus2001]

I am always surprised at the inability of a great deal of pilots to put themselves in the shoes of a CEO or GM and sit behind their desk for five minutes.
WHY SHOULD they improve their offering? If the aircraft are moving, turnover manageable and the numbers acceptable what is their motivation to increase pay or improve conditions?
There simply is no reason for them to budge unless they are forced to. Look at the Network situation in Perth.

[SilverSleuth]

Actually endorsed a document that reduces a pilots days off. (Wtf) - a new low in aviation.
will the pilots send the same message that the Network pilots sent the same union.????
time for pilots to stand up….
don’t undervalue yourselves

[Gas Chamber]

PIA PIA PIA!

[Zeta_Reticuli]

PIA PIA PIA!

Time for VIRGIN, NETWORK, NJS and Mainline to commence simultaneous PIA Blitzkrieg! never ending until demands and unconditional respect are met! Better to bankrupt these corporate communists than continuing to slave away for peanuts!

[turbantime]

Actually endorsed a document that reduces a pilots days off. (Wtf) - a new low in aviation.
will the pilots send the same message that the Network pilots sent the same union.????
time for pilots to stand up….
don’t undervalue yourselves
Easy to get emotive when only focusing on one aspect. The package in its entirety is actually a pretty good one. Lots of gains on the pilot side with fewer concessions (I don’t buy into the idea that we should give zero concessions as that is impractical in a negotiation). Brings pay back up to what it should/would have been on the previous EBA accounting for inflation along the way.