Cathay Pacific imploding.

[herewego75]

Will the top brass of CX rather cancel flights than acknowledge the lack of workforce (both pilots and cabin crew)? They are working their pilots and cabin crew to the bone, putting bandages on all the aircraft because lack of engineers, and crew control seem to be over the job too. I guess it's difficult to get flights into the air when you have no crew....... In the meantime, both pilots and cabin crew are spineless to stand up to the big bosses.

Let's get some popcorn.:ugh:

[RAT Management]

Will the top brass of CX rather cancel flights than acknowledge the lack of workforce (both pilots and cabin crew)? They are working their pilots and cabin crew to the bone, putting bandages on all the aircraft because lack of engineers, and crew control seem to be over the job too. I guess it's difficult to get flights into the air when you have no crew....... In the meantime, both pilots and cabin crew are spineless to stand up to the big bosses.

Let's get some popcorn.:ugh:

We have enough staff to fulfil our schedule. We have hired 800 cadets. We will be at 70% of pre covid levels by year out. 100% in 2024. Our employees are more engaged this year compared to last year. The package is competitive. We have plenty of trainers. We listen to our employees and offer schedule or better. We will be doing another employee survey soon.

What more do you want? Nothing to see here!

[cxflog]

We have enough staff to fulfil our schedule. We have hired 800 cadets. We will be at 70% of pre covid levels by year out. 100% in 2024. Our employees are more engaged this year compared to last year. The package is competitive. We have plenty of trainers. We listen to our employees and offer schedule or better. We will be doing another employee survey soon.

What more do you want? Nothing to see here!
You had me in the first half.

[Oasis]

'If you don't like it, leave'

- spoken at a recent fleet forum

I believe this it the attitude of 3rd floor managers who managed to live without their family for over a years time over covid, totally devoid of compassion for anyone not as dead-set on career and actually believe life is worth living for reasons other than money and 'status'.

[grizzled]

It's not just CX that's imploding. Though it does have it's own unique issues, including horrendous management and planning over the past few years, CX is also caught in the political and social changes that are turning Hong Kong into a global backwater.
Will the last person (non-mainlander) to leave please turn out the lights...

[corporal klinger]

I disagree. Cathay will see strong growth and high profits over the next decades. The strategy of cutting costs permanently and recruiting at these new conditions will work, unfortunately.
The reality is that our industry is not at the level it once was, smart people select academic careers, the rest does not expect nor demand A scale. Cadets will be people who choose Cathay over some lower-middle management job with even more miserable pay and conditions. They will additionally increasingly come from low wage countries. China's youth unemployment rate is massive, this surplus will further fuel the supply side, wages will stay low.

[grizzled]

I disagree. Cathay will see strong growth and high profits over the next decades.

I'll take that bet.
I believe you are failing to realize the number of international transiting passengers who are choosing other major Asian airports for their transit between North America and other points in Asia. This has historically been CX's prime market but many of us who travel regularly between Asia and North America no longer feel comfortable -- or secure -- transiting via HKG. The statistics and trends in the past year (as we've come out of Covid) show exactly that.

[Dilbert68]

Cathay Pacific is a training airline and nothing more. The majority of the pilot workforce are planning to leave as they cannot afford to live in HK with the package offered. The airline is so short of crew that they are rostering to the absolute limits, asking crew to work on days off and on leave. The only way to fix this mess is to go on strike, there is no better time than now but of course that would require a unified workforce.
You have nobody to blame but yourselves, this bully would fold like a cheap suit if you just had the balls.

[corporal klinger]

I'll take that bet.
The statistics and trends in the past year (as we've come out of Covid) show exactly that.


https://www.hongkongairport.com/en/media-centre/press-release/2023/pr_1648


Cathay Pacific is a training airline and nothing more. The majority of the pilot workforce are planning to leave as they cannot afford to live in HK with the package offered. .

Some Western expats will leave, the rest will stay.

[cygnet78]

Dont worry, a lot of pilots waiting to come. Leave if you like. hahahahaha......

[magenta magnet]

Will the top brass of CX rather cancel flights than acknowledge the lack of workforce (both pilots and cabin crew)? They are working their pilots and cabin crew to the bone, putting bandages on all the aircraft because lack of engineers, and crew control seem to be over the job too. I guess it's difficult to get flights into the air when you have no crew....... In the meantime, both pilots and cabin crew are spineless to stand up to the big bosses.

Let's get some popcorn.:ugh:


Why don't we do this, just write down how many hours you did last month or even the last 6 months, we're pilots we know to the exact decimal... And this is the hours you write in your logbook. Will be very interesting to know these figures.

[ACMS]

Dont worry, a lot of pilots waiting to come. Leave if you like. hahahahaha......


spoken like a true expat hating local climbing the slippery pole. Keep going up you’ll be DFO soon.

[pill]

Dont worry, a lot of pilots waiting to come. Leave if you like. hahahahaha......
No, not pilots, schools kids. Plenty of school kids wanting to join. Big difference. A pilot would be ready for command in a couple of years. A kid fresh out of school will take 10 years to train, then get the required 4000 hour minimum required for a CX command, whilst logging seat time only, as required when sitting in a Cathay jet. And the historic 37% upgrading to captain turns your 800 into 296. High 5's all round in the board room may have been a touch premature. I care not. Sorry, just don't.
Don't even get me started on using the pus box narrow body as it should be as a first step for FO or Command upgrade, then moving onto a wide body. No we'll have a prison fleet, where you get sent with no option or choice or exit. Hang on, there is always an exit. Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.
Not quite the workers paradise.

[boocs]

RAT!!!!

Never a more true word said. Nailed it.

b.

[boocs]

Whatever happened to "The Management" ? Thoroughly enjoyed his posts. Hope retirement is treating you well.

b.

[cxflog]

Whatever happened to "The Management" ? Thoroughly enjoyed his posts. Hope retirement is treating you well.

b.
I think he’s much happier now he’s not reading these forums that’s for sure.

[India Four Two]

I believe you are failing to realize the number of international transiting passengers who are choosing other major Asian airports for their transit between North America and other points in Asia.

I'm one of those passengers. CX used to be my favourite airline, when flying trans-Pacific from Vancouver. Now I choose any other Asian transit point, excepting Beijing.

[Will IB Fayed]

Leave, you whinging imbeciles.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Except there is no implosion.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/cathay-pacific-expects-profit-first-half-2023-2023-06-23/

[Al E. Vator]

So sad to see what has happened at CX.

Some numbskull decided that Covid was a great way to show those pesky pilots who’s the boss (and the economic experts) by savaging positions, bases, salaries and conditions.

Just like the expert fuel hedging they did some years ago.

Now the whole shebang is collapsing (in spite of sycophant’s takes like Will IB Fayed) and they only have themselves to blame. Trying to recruit the same pilots they dismissed back and trying to salvage the mess they made with their appalling treatment of pilots in the midst of a global pilot shortage was yet another example of stupid, vindictive decision-making. Cramming flying training of inexperienced newbies into ridiculously low hour schedules seems a Swiss-cheese problem staring everyone right in the face.

Certainly a slightly more challenging task for management, given the changed political situation but CX needs capable leaders like Sutch and Eddington of old, rather than the evidently inept folks atop CX City now.

Sadly, suspect CX will be the Saudia or Alitalia of HK. A relic destroyed by incompetence.

[Captain Dart]

I would hardly put Red Oddington as an equal to Sutch. His tenure was the start of the rot. Then there was David Downturn...

[Sam Ting Wong]

I share and understand the anger about the demise of T&C for staff,obviously.

What I don't get is the conclusion "low pay= downfall/implosion of the airline".

I would argue it's the opposite. Bad for us, but very good for them. Cathay will be highly profitable not the least because of the cost cutting.Rather than an implosion of the airline we saw an implosion of our T&C. Big difference. I think we will see an explosion of bonusses and the share price.

There is no global pilot shortage either, but a regional one in US and Australia. No shortage in SA, Europe and Asia. And I doubt a shortage of cadets is even technically possible, considering the profile of applicants and associated alternative job perspectives.

[Kitsune]

I share and understand the anger about the demise of T&C for staff,obviously.

What I don't get is the conclusion "low pay= downfall/implosion of the airline".

I would argue it's the opposite. Bad for us, but very good for them. Cathay will be highly profitable not the least because of the cost cutting.Rather than an implosion of the airline we saw an implosion of our T&C. Big difference. I think we will see an explosion of bonusses and the share price.

There is no global pilot shortage either, but a regional one in US and Australia. No shortage in SA, Europe and Asia. And I doubt a shortage of cadets is even technically possible, considering the profile of applicants and associated alternative job perspectives.


https://www.marketplace.org/2023/07/05/pilots-are-still-in-short-supply-what-are-airlines-doing-about-it/amp/

[HeadUpTheTailpipe]

STW, to counter your argument regarding the cut in Ts and Cs being a death nell for CX;

1) It could limit any recovery (missed opportunity) due to a lack of pilots. Yes, there will always be takers, but they're the bottom of the barrel, so they likely won't pass selection or training, or take and awfully long time to do so. And rightly so, as the trainers attempt to maintain the standards of old.

2) An incident/accident/hull loss creating bad publicity and loss of confidence amongst the flying public due to either the ineptitude of the new recruits, or more likely, due to stress in the flight deck amongst the old guard.

HUTT out.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Kitsune, this article is about a shortage in the US. Not relevant for Cathay.

Hutt, the recruitment of cadets has not changed over the last 20+ years. No change regarding safety or quality. And a slower expansion due to an (alleged) short term shortage would still be an expansion, not an implosion. It's wishful thinking I am afraid.

[BusyB]

"No change regarding safety or quality."

I only wish that was and is true:mad:

[Posterizing]

I am not trying to comment on the quality of cadets, but the recruitment process has definitely changed within the past 5 years. This includes the removal of flight grading from the selection process, lowering the requirement from icao 5 to icao 4 (it was always icao 4 on the website but they used to never accept anyone below a 5). Since they reopened applications post-covid, they have also reduced the interview process from the previous 2 day session with multiple exercises per day to 1 online HR interview + 1 face to face technical interview. But the logic behind this from what I understand is since the cadets now pay back half of the training costs, recruitment are taking less of a risk by loosening up the requirements and they can instead rely harder on FTA/Aeroguard Arizona to weed out the applicants that are not up to standard.

[VforVENDETTA]

There will always be takers?

Is that why cathay has missed every single flight schedule restoration target it has set for itself since 2+ years ago? because they always have enough takers?

They can't attract people for any job description for quite some time now.

How about the few fake logbook aces that were struggling in training before they were found out to have fake logbooks?

How about the rash of hard landings on the 747 fleet a few months ago?

The lesser number of people they're getting seens to be a much lower grade of pilots the great mighty cathay pacific used to fetch. 1st face to face interview at various locations worldwide, some got invited for the hk 2 full days of various batteries of testing and assessment. 5 out of 20 would get the coveted job offer in the end. With the much lowered standards they're still not getting enough to not miss every target they set for re-expansion.

Every action has a result. Everything they have done to the pay and benefits of their employees will always translate down to every aspect of the business. You get what you pay for. Its impossible the business will flurish and become similarly profitable or successful once again. Those employees of the past are gone. They no longer exist. Wether those who have left (2000 of them pilots) or those who are still there but no longer give a sh!t about anything and will leave 1st chance they get.

Those who are coming at a tricle are selected by a much lower standard selection process. They'll never be able to perform like those of the past.

The spotless safety records of the past are in the past. The impeccable customer service is a thing of the past.
Impeccably maintained aircraft are a thing of the past.

[mngmt mole]

V for V. Oh so true, every word.

[HeadUpTheTailpipe]

V for V - a post laden with spelling mistakes! However, no mistakes whatsoever in your points. Absolutely spot on!

[VforVENDETTA]

V for V - a post laden with spelling mistakes! However, no mistakes whatsoever in your points. Absolutely spot on!
My sincere apologies. I had someone nagging at me to hurry up and let's go at the coffee shop. Got rushed. 😅

[Zi Peng]

Pilots apparently just part of the problem, they are struggling for all sorts of personnel starting with Haeco.

[Oasis]

Can I ask: since when do fo’s get checked to line in 15 sectors? Used to be a minimum of 40.

[Oasis]

I share and understand the anger about the demise of T&C for staff,obviously.

What I don't get is the conclusion "low pay= downfall/implosion of the airline".

I would argue it's the opposite. Bad for us, but very good for them. Cathay will be highly profitable not the least because of the cost cutting.Rather than an implosion of the airline we saw an implosion of our T&C. Big difference. I think we will see an explosion of bonusses and the share price.

There is no global pilot shortage either, but a regional one in US and Australia. No shortage in SA, Europe and Asia. And I doubt a shortage of cadets is even technically possible, considering the profile of applicants and associated alternative job perspectives.

Europe seems pretty short too, salary going up and everyone seems to be hiring.

[Al E. Vator]

So the next logical question is the Swiss Cheese issue.

With SO many massive structural downward adjustments, weaknesses, shortcuts in recruiting and training (and thus so many holes in the cheese), when will those holes tragically align?

With everything we know about safety, how the hell can this still happen in this day and age?

Beggars belief.

[Posterizing]

So the next logical question is the Swiss Cheese issue.

With SO many massive structural downward adjustments, weaknesses, shortcuts in recruiting and training (and thus so many holes in the cheese), when will those holes tragically align?

With everything we know about safety, how the hell can this still happen in this day and age?

Beggars belief.

maybe thats why theyre trying to move away from the swiss cheese model and focusing on threat and error management. no holes to align if you dont believe in the holes.

[Angle_of_Attack]

There is no global pilot shortage either, but a regional one in US and Australia. No shortage in SA, Europe and Asia. And I doubt a shortage of cadets is even technically possible, considering the profile of applicants and associated alternative job perspectives.

Actually, Europe & China / South Asia have some of the largest demands.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/996x566/screen_shot_2023_03_05_at_10_57_57_pm_11e64eaca36fb256b986b4 270bf964acecfaabdb.png

https://www.boeing.com/commercial/market/pilot-technician-outlook/

[Sam Ting Wong]

Europe seems pretty short too, salary going up and everyone seems to be hiring.

Check the payscales at the few airlines who hire at the moment: Whizzair, Lot, Air Baltic,Ryanair, Aerologic and Eurowings. Maybe sit down before you do first, and don't hold a hot coffee in your hand. If you digested that, substract 40% tax.

[Gnadenburg]

Not sure if you just like being some sort of contrarian but there’s not just a regional pilot shortage in the US. Demand is now untapped and expansion plans are being crippled at many carriers. The attrition rates I’m seeing and hearing of are something I’ve never witnessed in the industry before. I spent time at a major carrier where we were briefed on pilot demand not being met and exacerbated by a need to have check and training staff flying the line to meet summer demand. Which was at pre-COVID levels only.

I don’t think there’s meat on the bone. If Asia picks up much further demand won’t be met and the pilot shortage will arrive. What will that mean for CX pilots? Not much. Maybe a little more pity from outsiders. But good luck anyways.

[Oasis]

Check the payscales at the few airlines who hire at the moment: Whizzair, Lot, Air Baltic,Ryanair, Aerologic and Eurowings. Maybe sit down before you do first, and don't hold a hot coffee in your hand. If you digested that, substract 40% tax.


You just listed the lowest paying european low cost airlines. Why don't you compare it with a legacy carrier, they are hiring too.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You just listed the lowest paying european low cost airlines. Why don't you compare it with a legacy carrier, they are hiring too.

That is exactly the issue, most airlines who hire in Europe are indeed low cost now. Check for yourself. Legacy carriers either go for cadets like Cathay or use cheaper sub-brands to pay less (Transavia, Eurowings, Air Belgium etc).

[Fac6]

There will always be takers?

Is that why cathay has missed every single flight schedule restoration target it has set for itself since 2+ years ago? because they always have enough takers?

They can't attract people for any job description for quite some time now.

How about the few fake logbook aces that were struggling in training before they were found out to have fake logbooks?

How about the rash of hard landings on the 747 fleet a few months ago?

The lesser number of people they're getting seens to be a much lower grade of pilots the great mighty cathay pacific used to fetch. 1st face to face interview at various locations worldwide, some got invited for the hk 2 full days of various batteries of testing and assessment. 5 out of 20 would get the coveted job offer in the end. With the much lowered standards they're still not getting enough to not miss every target they set for re-expansion.

Every action has a result. Everything they have done to the pay and benefits of their employees will always translate down to every aspect of the business. You get what you pay for. Its impossible the business will flurish and become similarly profitable or successful once again. Those employees of the past are gone. They no longer exist. Wether those who have left (2000 of them pilots) or those who are still there but no longer give a sh!t about anything and will leave 1st chance they get.

Those who are coming at a tricle are selected by a much lower standard selection process. They'll never be able to perform like those of the past.

The spotless safety records of the past are in the past. The impeccable customer service is a thing of the past.
Impeccably maintained aircraft are a thing of the past.

Very well said :ok:

[Fac6]

Check the payscales at the few airlines who hire at the moment: Whizzair, Lot, Air Baltic,Ryanair, Aerologic and Eurowings. Maybe sit down before you do first, and don't hold a hot coffee in your hand. If you digested that, substract 40% tax.

I'm in the US earning more here as an FO than I did as a year 11 Captain in CX. Go figure...

Go look at the figures for SO 1 and FO 1 in CX after tax? Add to that the living costs of Hong Kong, having a family and finding yourselves a decent condo to live in. Maybe sit down before you do first, and don't hold a hot coffee in your hand.

[buggaluggs]

The story goes that senior management’s preferred option was to hire more direct entry F/O’s in order to quickly ( read cheaply ) recover crewing levels on the basis of less required training sectors. FOP management argued that with SO’s approaching 7 years in rank this would cause significant dissent amongst the crew. their efforts to improve the ‘business case’ for upgrading existing crew involved a reduction in the upgrade training footprint if the trainee was up to the task. This of course puts vastly more pressure on the training system to maintain standards, as is always the case with CX it comes down to money! Personally I think it’s only a matter of time until it bites them on the arse.

[Angle_of_Attack]

There is no global pilot shortage either, but a regional one in US and Australia. No shortage in SA, Europe and Asia. And I doubt a shortage of cadets is even technically possible, considering the profile of applicants and associated alternative job perspectives.

BA mainline and Euroflyer have been hiring for a while now, and just announced that they will need 500 pilots for the next 2 years, and have re-opened their Newly Qualified Pilot Pathway as well as announced their Whitetail Recruitment programme.

https://www.pilotcareernews.com/brit...uitment-plans/ (https://www.pilotcareernews.com/british-airways-announces-new-pilot-recruitment-plans/)

[cxflog]

I'm in the US earning more here as an FO than I did as a year 11 Captain in CX. Go figure...

Go look at the figures for SO 1 and FO 1 in CX after tax? Add to that the living costs of Hong Kong, having a family and finding yourselves a decent condo to live in. Maybe sit down before you do first, and don't hold a hot coffee in your hand.
As someone else who also made the jump to the US from CX, the increase in quality of life alone is monumental and I would never go back. The pay is just an added bonus at this point and it’s amazing how much further money can take you when you don’t spend the majority on renting a tiny apartment.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Cxflog et al., the US is a different market and closed for most of us. It's completely irrelevant to me and many more, Sorry, no offense, but I feel like a broken record, how many times do we have to go over this again and again?

Not sure if you just like being some sort of contrarian but there’s not just a regional pilot shortage in the US. Demand is now untapped and expansion plans are being crippled at many carriers..

Which airlines would that be please? We all know that if you pay low enough you get a shortage of applicants, but can you name an airline in Asia or Europe (UK if you have the passport only) that offers decent salary, working hours and a reasonable promotion path? I would agree there are options if you are 30ish F/O and flexible. But the typical expat pilot in Cathay is older, has a command or is very close to it. A cadet or junior officer job at a "legacy carrier" is out of the question for most. . Not trying to be contrarian, this is my personal first hand experience of the current market. Lifestyle choices are all good and well, the offers I have seen more resemble financial suicide or volunteer admission into labor camps.

[Fly747]

https://www.youtube.com/live/BGAIQqoGGZ0?feature=share

Cathay ?239 at around the 2hr 10 min mark.
Lovely landing by a Sing jumbo immediately after.

[Busbuoy]

https://www.youtube.com/live/BGAIQqoGGZ0?feature=share

Cathay ?239 at around the 2hr 10 min mark.
"Want to add anything to Vapp for the wind? No thanks, fleet office says no need." 🤣

[ACMS]

Didn’t know you let the SO land now days!!
Bloody awful technique

[Angle_of_Attack]

Cxflog et al., the US is a different market and closed for most of us. It's completely irrelevant to me and many more, Sorry, no offense, but I feel like a broken record, how many times do we have to go over this again and again?



Which airlines would that be please? We all know that if you pay low enough you get a shortage of applicants, but can you name an airline in Asia or Europe (UK if you have the passport only) that offers decent salary, working hours and a reasonable promotion path? I would agree there are options if you are 30ish F/O and flexible. But the typical expat pilot in Cathay is older, has a command or is very close to it. A cadet or junior officer job at a "legacy carrier" is out of the question for most. . Not trying to be contrarian, this is my personal first hand experience of the current market. Lifestyle choices are all good and well, the offers I have seen more resemble financial suicide or volunteer admission into labor camps.

I've literally just told you. BA are hiring DEFO / DEC and are conservatively estimating 500 pilots for just the next two years, saying nothing of the years following that.
Apparently you just want to ignore facts.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I've literally just told you. BA are hiring DEFO / DEC and are conservatively estimating 500 pilots for just the next two years, saying nothing of the years following that.
Apparently you just want to ignore facts.

They do not hire non-UK citizens for starters. Any experienced 40yr-ish candidate hired as F/O would be a F/O for life even if they would hire you, which they don't. The direct entry positions are at Cityflyer, exactly what I said, they are using sub-brands, with the same restrictions. You also need the license, the type rating and the hours. .

You just literally repeated the same unhelpful statement twice, with all due respect. And it is you who ignores facts. It would be a paycut in the region of 60-70% for a Cx captain, are you really not aware of that? Hard to believe.

[Angle_of_Attack]

They do not hire non-UK citizens for starters. Any experienced 40yr-ish candidate hired as F/O would be a F/O for life even if they would hire you, which they don't. The direct entry positions are at Cityflyer, exactly what I said, they are using sub-brands, with the same restrictions. You also need the license, the type rating and the hours. .

You just literally repeated the same unhelpful statement twice, with all due respect. And it is you who ignores facts. It would be a paycut in the region of 60-70% for a Cx captain, are you really not aware of that? Hard to believe.

What are you on about? All my comments have been in response to your comment regarding there "not being a global pilot shortage" and your question to show you demand in Europe.
Your personal eligibility has nothing to do with any of those questions or the responses.
BA is hiring Captains for Euroflyer, not Cityflyer and DEFO is for Heathrow (aka BA Mainline) and Euroflyer, not Cityflyer. Again, you're disregarding facts.

"To be considered for BA Euroflyer at the time of submitting online application – 500 hours or 100 sectors on an aircraft type that satisfies ZFTT*

To be considered for British Airways at the time of submitted online application – 500 hours or 100 sectors on the A320 or 1500 hours on an aircraft type that satisfies ZFTT and flown this type in the last 12 months*"

Plus, Joining BA means you have the ability to move within fleets. BA's cabin crew union have just negotiated a pay rise, I assume the same can be expected for flight crew if it hasn't happened yet.
However, there is much more that factors into quality of life than just the number that ends up in your bank account each month.

[Rhodes13]

Take a read of the BA hiring thread. Commands went to those with a year in the company (320 LHR base), yes it's an anomaly but your assertion that you'll be an FO for life is wrong at the moment.....

[Angle_of_Attack]

When you are done halucinating read the fine print. I can't believe you are trying to sell this bs to colleagues just to get some attention..

Currently operating in command on A320 in the last 6 months with 3500 total time and 1000 PIC on type
Current UK issued CAA Flight Crew Licence ATPL (A) or conversion to UK CAA licence initiated.
Right to work in the UK


Euroflyer is a LOW COST brand, jesus christ. The pay after tax is miserable Stop pretending this is a good job and out of reach for 99% in Cathay anyway. IThis is embarrassing and a waste of time, over and out

Not trying to sell anything to anyone - just pointing out that you are wrong and that demand is growing - still strictly responding to your comment about there being no pilot shortage.
Seems that you struggle to admit when you're wrong and are instead trying to make it about something else.

I must've missed your post asking us to help you find a new job.

[Gnadenburg]

Which airlines would that be please? We all know that if you pay low enough you get a shortage of applicants, but can you name an airline in Asia or Europe (UK if you have the passport only) that offers decent salary, working hours and a reasonable promotion path? I would agree there are options if you are 30ish F/O and flexible. But the typical expat pilot in Cathay is older, has a command or is very close to it. A cadet or junior officer job at a "legacy carrier" is out of the question for most. . Not trying to be contrarian, this is my personal first hand experience of the current market. Lifestyle choices are all good and well, the offers I have seen more resemble financial suicide or volunteer admission into labor camps.

I think you’ve mixed me up with someone else. I was disputing your claim that there’s only a pilot shortage at US and Australian regionals. I had a comprehensive recruiting brief at Delta and they have an interesting consequence of the structural pilot shortage. They are all hands on deck this summer where their training pilots are being used to fly the line to meet a summer schedule. This is curtailing their expansion.

If you made a lot of money pre-COVID as a CX pilot you have a lot of career choices. This seems to be a pattern in many of the pilots I know or have met who left Cathay. If you didn’t I guess you count pennies when comparing airline packages.

[Fridayflyer]

don’t forget Qantas are severely short of pilots too with a large number of CX guys on the hold file awaiting dates still. The exodus hasn’t stopped yet and there are plenty of other options

[Al E. Vator]

The Sam Ting Wongs of the world can put as much of a silly, head-in-the-sand spin on it as they want (for whatever reason)

Bottom line is that decent/experienced pilots are in short supply globally and decent airlines recognise the need to attract/pay/retain appropriately

The 👇 horrendous Cathay landing video doing the social media rounds at present is just one byproduct of 5+ years of myopic corporate decision making. Sincerely hope it’s limited to merely a few bad landings.

https://twitter.com/webflite/status/1680735122839191554?s=61&t=EQ2FfJxPeJW7gc1F_RlxFQ

[Dingleberry Handpump]

STW won’t admit when he’s wrong. There’s a significant shortage of pilots around the world. As mentioned above, those that made sensible financial decisions have the liberty of choice.

As an aside - if the pay is so poor elsewhere: which way is the flow of traffic?

[Piet Lood]

STW has NEVER admitted he’s wrong, but plenty of people have pointed it out to him in the past.
It’s fun to watch him throw his hands up once in a while and tell all of us he is leaving pprune…..again.
This time he lasted a whole two weeks.

Of course it is OUR fault for not realising he is not eligible to go to the USA, or BA, Lufthansa, KLM etc.
so it’s really not fair of us to confront him with THAT particular part of the aviation industry.
In HIS part of the world there is NO pilot shortage and that’s all that matters.
CAN’T YOU ALL GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS ALREADY.
He is REALLY getting tired of repeating himself and his same old argument over and over and over again.
Why can’t you see his superior intellect?
It is quite obvious to himself!

[Sam Ting Wong]

You guys are halucinating, there are hardly any attractive jobs for experienced pilots on the market in Europe. Which is why nobody of you can name one. All you can do is post non-sensical, not asked for, non-attractive, escape, pseudo job offers.

Or, slightly more irritating even, you suddenly discover your wise and mindful inner side and announce with infinite wisdom that there are so many more important things in life than pay. Which of course is true, but it's like saying fasting is really healthy when asked for a certain recipe. It's just really very much annoying.

Piet, you are at Aerologic, and that is totally fine. If it makes you happy there, great. But it is one of the lowest paying long haul jobs in the Western hemisphere, just a fact. This doesn't mean it can make sense to go there, and please believe me I really mean that, but only if you have other priorities. Now, you can continue to play dumb, I can't stop you, but I was clearly talking about, and I say it one last time just for you, an attractive job for an experienced CX pilot, with reasonable working hours and promotion options. If you care, look it up, I verbatim stated it exactly like that above. I am not apologetic about my area of interest, why should I? And please, for the love of Jesus Christ, stop stalking me via PM's and go easy on large fonds. It's embarrassing.

[Piet Lood]

You guys are halucinating, there are hardly any attractive jobs for experienced pilots on the market in Europe. Which is why nobody of you can name one. All you can do is post non-sensical, not asked for, non-attractive, escape, pseudo job offers.

Or, slightly more irritating even, you suddenly discover your wise and mindful inner side and announce with infinite wisdom that there are so many more important things in life than pay. Which of course is true, but it's like saying fasting is really healthy when asked for a certain recipe. It's just really very much annoying.

Piet, you are at Aerologic, and that is totally fine. If it makes you happy there, great. But it is one of the lowest paying long haul jobs in the Western hemisphere, just a fact. This doesn't mean it can make sense to go there, and please believe me I really mean that, but only if you have other priorities. Now, you can continue to play dumb, I can't stop you, but I was clearly talking about, and I say it one last time just for you, an attractive job for an experienced CX pilot, with reasonable working hours and promotion options. If you care, look it up, I verbatim stated it exactly like that above. I am not apologetic about my area of interest, why should I? And please, for the love of Jesus Christ, stop stalking me via PM's and go easy on large fonds. It's embarrassing.

Hahahaha, awesome, I hit a nerve.
You are once again: WRONG! (Wish I could use even larger font to piss you off even more).
I’m not at Aerologic, but know a few who are and they seem happy and decently paid.
Another couple of friends (experienced cx(small font) pilots, mind you) who just landed jobs at BA and KLM.

Happy to return the favour my friend, you too are annoying as f*ck and seem to think you know more than everyone else or that you are smarter than the average jockey out there.
Except, similar to some of us, you are oftentimes….WRONG!

[Angle_of_Attack]

Sam Ting WRONG ;)

[Oasis]

I think you two should just get a bottle of red and rent a hotel room together. Let the pillow fight determine the winner!

[FlexibleResponse]

Without prejudice...

“Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”
Joseph Goebbels

The big lie, to describe the use of a lie so colossal that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
Mein Kampf

“Four legs good, two legs bad.” “The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.” “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
Animal Farm

Many Dictators, Communist, Socialist and other even Democratic Governments use these methods to control the narrative and thoughts of their proletarians.

[Xwindldg]

[QUOTE=Sam Ting Wong;11468797]You guys are halucinating, there are hardly any attractive jobs for experienced pilots on the market in Europe. Which is why nobody of you can name one. All you can do is post non-sensical, not asked for, non-attractive, escape, pseudo job offers.
Or, slightly more irritating even, you suddenly discover your wise and mindful inner side and announce with infinite wisdom that there are so many more important things in life than pay. Which of course is true, but it's like saying fasting is really healthy when asked for a certain recipe. It's just really very much annoying.



Many/most CX expats who have kids consider a job back home for less money to be a superior job.

You’re fine sitting in your one bedder in Tsing Yi, online gaming with your mates, but for many others there’s other considerations that have to be taken into account.

Living in a s###hole and earning 15% more on paper (which EASILY gets eaten up in school fees/extortionate grocery bills/accommodation/extra medical/etc..) hardly makes this a far superior job to letting your family live in a good country.

[Angle_of_Attack]

Ah, but you see, none of those things are relevant because they don't apply to him. Merely annoying facts that he prefers to ignore.

[Piet Lood]

One more thing STW: if you compare salaries in Europe to the salary in the authoritarian ****hole that HKG has become, you have to realise you are comparing apples and oranges.
I never had to spend HKD70k+ a month in housing anywhere else on the planet.

[sirDA42]

Does anyone know why the 5 same people keep arguing with each other every day on this forum?

[cxflog]

Does anyone know why the 5 same people keep arguing with each other every day on this forum?
It’s a tradition at this point and I’m all for it.

[Climbpowder]

One more thing STW: if you compare salaries in Europe to the salary in the authoritarian ****hole that HKG has become, you have to realise you are comparing apples and oranges.
I never had to spend HKD70k+ a month in housing anywhere else on the planet.

Neither you would have that kind of money to spend anywhere else on the planet...

[Dilbert68]

Ha! That is so true but as cxflog says, it's tradition.

[Piet Lood]

Neither you would have that kind of money to spend anywhere else on the planet...

True, but “das war einmal”.

[mngmt mole]

Perhaps CX should take note of reality. The new United contract.

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/united-pilots-agree-labor-deal-could-see-salaries-cumulatively-rise-40

[Fac6]

STW.
I have some friends over in Europe. Have you seen the Aerologic pay scales and the new agreement CargoLux has reached with its pilots? You are delusional.

Just to add, they are Conditions of Service and are "Contractural" and protected by very good labor laws. They are not Company Policy that can be changed at will

[Stallone]

70k rental…. I wonder what sort of houses CX staff stays in

[Veruka Salt]

70K/mth rents you approx 1500sq ft.

[Dingleberry Handpump]

70K/mth rents you approx 1500sq ft.
Or a mouldy village house.

[Sam Ting Wong]

STW won’t admit when he’s wrong. There’s a significant shortage of pilots around the world. As mentioned above, those that made sensible financial decisions have the liberty of choice.

As an aside - if the pay is so poor elsewhere: which way is the flow of traffic?

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/653999-what-shortage.html

[Angle_of_Attack]

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/653999-what-shortage.html

If you actually took the time to understand exactly what is meant by the global pilot shortage or read the statistics, you'll see that it is a global PROJECTED shortage, a FORECAST of demand for the next two decades or so.
Therefore, you may not be seeing the effects of it immediately (in present time) but airlines will be prepping for it because they do try to plan long-term, despite what many of you seem to think.
This is shown in part by the ordering of aircraft, and the need to acquire / train people to pilot and crew those aircraft when they are received.
If you understood this basic fact about aviation you'd know this.

[Klimax]

https://www.youtube.com/live/BGAIQqoGGZ0?feature=share

Cathay ?239 at around the 2hr 10 min mark.
Lovely landing by a Sing jumbo immediately after.

Holy crap! Well, what do you expect - really, what do you expect these days? The most qualified pilots left a long time ago - unless they´re really stuck in Donkie Kong.

[Piet Lood]

If you actually took the time to understand exactly what is meant by the global pilot shortage or read the statistics, you'll see that it is a global PROJECTED shortage, a FORECAST of demand for the next two decades or so.
Therefore, you may not be seeing the effects of it immediately (in present time) but airlines will be prepping for it because they do try to plan long-term, despite what many of you seem to think.
This is shown in part by the ordering of aircraft, and the need to acquire / train people to pilot and crew those aircraft when they are received.
If you understood this basic fact about aviation you'd know this.

In order to understand the GLOBAL pilot shortage, STW would have to broaden his mind a mind.
He’s already stated he is not interested (as in eligible) in the European and US markets, and I am going to go out on a limb and expand that to South America and the Indian subcontinent.
He’s probably also not interested in what’s going on in the Middle East, so neither should you be.
Which leaves Africa (probably well below par for the ole chap), China and HKG.
If you put yourself in his shoes for a moment, you can clearly see that from his point of view there is NO pilot shortage.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Piet, are you ok? You used to at least read my posts before having your usual rant. Tired? The EASA FTL's are a bitch, hope you are fine..

I was emphasizing the unfortunate fact that there is no global shortage, only a regional one in the US and Australia. Kindly see the thread link and the post I was replying to.

If you want to leave Asia and return to Europe, or even change jobs within Asia, as an experienced pilot it's extremely difficult and most likely only possible by making extreme financial sacrifices. You will probably end up like Piet, in a mediocre job he only took to be home. As I said a million times before, it could still be worth it, money is not everything, but this is a complete different discussion. Presently there is no shortage of suitable pilots in Europe or Asia, and again and again, I am talking about job prospects for experienced guys at a certain age. A shortage of candidates at Whizz Air Base Hungary for 3000 Euros is not a shortage, it's a tragedy. That is precisely what I was commenting on, and the above thread link would inform you I am not alone making this assessment. Just bloody read it if you care.

I am only modestly interested in alleged future shortages, mainly because I happen to live now and not in 10 years and also just about anyone can make these predictions. Also after about 20 years hearing these claims in here, without ever materializing, frankly, it's getting a bit boring.Also AoA, what statistic should I please consider? Which data? Show it to me! I bet you can't. You made a very common mistake. You mixed up projected(!) growth and demand(!) with shortage. Not the same thing. Plus exponential growth of IT technology is not included, the demand is based on current cockpit layouts and technique. It doesn't require much fantasy what consequences recruitment problems in US will have on AI solutions and automation. Massive investments in this sector will eventually lead to higher productivity, unavoidable. And again, the crucial question is of course, where and when is that mystic shortage? I need a job today not in 2035.

As to the main title of the thread, Cathay is still not imploding, but will soon post record profits. The seniority list will grow with the help of cadets, upgrade times will go down. Some familiar names popped up at the bottom of the list as well, another clear indicator of how difficult it is to secure a financially reasonable employment elsewhere.

The shortage is a fever dream, as is the demise of Cx, it's wishful thinking. All the talk about safety problems is just tiring and ignorant of the actual data. Look at the safety records of Chinese or Indian airlines just as an example. Exactly what I said from the beginning, and for what I get crucified and ridiculed in here since years now. There will be a massive rebound, amplified by the enlarged HKIA next year and high profits, mark my words.

Now go on and shoot the messenger as usual, it's ok, I know you guys are unable to distinguish between a debate on future developments and taking sides..

[Piet Lood]

Piet, are you ok? You used to at least read my posts before having your usual rant. Tired? The EASA FTL's are a bitch, hope you are fine..

I was emphasizing the unfortunate fact that there is no global shortage, only a regional one in the US and Australia. Kindly see the thread link and the post I was replying to.

If you want to leave Asia and return to Europe, or even change jobs within Asia, as an experienced pilot it's extremely difficult and most likely only possible by making extreme financial sacrifices. You will probably end up like Piet, in a mediocre job he only took to be home. As I said a million times before, it could still be worth it, money is not everything, but this is a complete different discussion. Presently there is no shortage of suitable pilots in Europe or Asia, and again and again, I am talking about job prospects for experienced guys at a certain age. A shortage of candidates at Whizz Air Base Hungary for 3000 Euros is not a shortage, it's a tragedy. That is precisely what I was commenting on, and the above thread link would inform you I am not alone making this assessment. Just bloody read it if you care.

I am only modestly interested in alleged future shortages, mainly because I happen to live now and not in 10 years and also just about anyone can make these predictions. Also after about 20 years hearing these claims in here, without ever materializing, frankly, it's getting a bit boring.Also AoA, what statistic should I please consider? Which data? Show it to me! I bet you can't. You made a very common mistake. You mixed up projected(!) growth and demand(!) with shortage. Not the same thing. Plus exponential growth of IT technology is not included, the demand is based on current cockpit layouts and technique. It doesn't require much fantasy what consequences recruitment problems in US will have on AI solutions and automation. Massive investments in this sector will eventually lead to higher productivity, unavoidable. And again, the crucial question is of course, where and when is that mystic shortage? I need a job today not in 2035.

As to the main title of the thread, Cathay is still not imploding, but will soon post record profits. The seniority list will grow with the help of cadets, upgrade times will go down. Some familiar names popped up at the bottom of the list as well, another clear indicator of how difficult it is to secure a financially reasonable employment elsewhere.

The shortage is a fever dream, as is the demise of Cx, it's wishful thinking. All the talk about safety problems is just tiring and ignorant of the actual data. Look at the safety records of Chinese or Indian airlines just as an example. Exactly what I said from the beginning, and for what I get crucified and ridiculed in here since years now. There will be a massive rebound, amplified by the enlarged HKIA next year and high profits, mark my words.

Now go on and shoot the messenger as usual, it's ok, I know you guys are unable to distinguish between a debate on future developments and taking sides..

You know what’s getting a bit boring? (But still mildly entertaining).
Your thick skull and inability to admit you’re wrong.

US regional shortage? How many ex-CX guys are now flying for AA/Delta/UPS/Fedex/Atlas/United?
All regionals?

Also: who has trouble reading when I have told you multiple times that I have not gone home and didn’t have to make any “extreme financial sacrifice”, on the contrary, but you have always been good at ignoring facts and statements that don’t suit your narrative.

You keep doing you and we will continue to laugh at your silliness, although, as you said, it is getting a bit boring.

Let me end on a positive note for you, since you always seem to be willing to be so nice to me: the European low-cost market is indeed a tragedy.
And I blame pilots like you not willing to fight for better cos’s. ****, there goes my positive note.

[Sam Ting Wong]

You know what’s getting a bit boring? (But still mildly entertaining).
Your thick skull and inability to admit you’re wrong.

US regional shortage? How many ex-CX guys are now flying for AA/Delta/UPS/Fedex/Atlas/United?
All

Piet, the discussion was about whether there is a GLOBAL shortage, as some in here claim. I am saying there is no such thing, it is a REGIONAL shortage ( as in restricted to certain geographic regions , like the US or Australia).

Get some sleep! 😉

[Gnadenburg]

Having used staff travel extensively around your “region” the last few months, networks and frequencies aren’t anywhere near what they were pre-COVID. If pre-COVID levels of flying achieved in Asia the pilot shortage should be glaringly evident. If China picks up it will be carnage with less obvious pilot markets straining ( Vietnam for example ).

CX seems slow off the mark versus say SQ. They aren’t alone. QF faces similar expansion issues in part limited by lack of pilots.

My prediction is by next year the global pilot shortage will fast hit Asia. Cathay will be profitable but constrained in expansion perhaps due a lack of Captains. Despite having flexible labour contracts its management seems lost in a legacy past. DEC’s make sense in excess of the trickle of ex-CX and ex-KA coming soon.

[a334]

Piet, the discussion was about whether there is a GLOBAL shortage, as some in here claim. I am saying there is no such thing, it is a REGIONAL shortage ( as in restricted to certain geographic regions , like the US or Australia).

Get some sleep! 😉

I read pprune and generally don't comment, but mate, what world are you living in? I'm in Canada, and there's a full blown shortage everywhere... Air Canada has been hiring at an unprecedented rate, and they will continue to do so for at least the next 12 months...Upgrade times right now are sitting around 2 to 3 years on all narrowbody fleets at AC, and all the major Canadian carriers have been hiring in droves. The situation is the same in the US, both at the majors and the regionals, and, in other parts of the world also

[cxflog]

I read pprune and generally don't comment, but mate, what world are you living in? I'm in Canada, and there's a full blown shortage everywhere... Air Canada has been hiring at an unprecedented rate, and they will continue to do so for at least the next 12 months...Upgrade times right now are sitting around 2 to 3 years on all narrowbody fleets at AC, and all the major Canadian carriers have been hiring in droves. The situation is the same in the US, both at the majors and the regionals, and, in other parts of the world also

Yeah but what you need to understand is that those shortages are limited to NA and a little bit in Aus. The EU has absolutely no issue at the moment plugging someone in the right seat of a 320/737. CX also has no issue with hiring crew, there’s still plenty of the 100+ who were let go in 2020 waiting to return, and many others with previous jet time lining up to jump in a widebody. AirNZ can still be picky with its applicants because there is simply no where else for NZ pilots to fly. I’m not always a fan of the tune STW sings but he’s not wrong in that regard.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I can't comment on Canada, so ok, shortage in US, Australia and Canada. This is still not a global shortage.

Gnadenburg, I hope you are right.. I think we can agree there will never be a shortage of cadets, correct? Will there ever be a shortage of suitable FO's to upgrade in Cathay? Not sure. 777 and 747 has hundreds of potential candidates available with enough experience, plus as you mention it's now possible to go for DEC as well..As long as HKexpress and HK airlines can recruit.. By the way, I read somewhere that China is already very close to pre-Covid levels in terms of traffic numbers.

My guess is that in fall a profit share exceeding previous meagre couple of weeks will be announced, in order to match renumeration packages of our competitors.

[Piet Lood]

STW, you sound like Reg:
“All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?”

[Sam Ting Wong]

No. still not the old Piet. Not a matching comparison at all, since as opposed to Reg I am not backpaddling. From the beginning I am saying no shortage in EU and Asia, same as in this moment. You did not read my posts properly, it's very obvious. Additionally, admittingly without any personal knowlege of the local Canadian market, only last year laid off based Canadian pilots relocated back to HK, I spoke with a couple of them, both experienced Cpts. They told me exactly the same: no suitable job offers in Canada that come even close to what CX is paying them, so they rather chose to endure quarantine and brutal restrictions and relocated to HK, in the midst of Covid. This is a true story, in total dozens returned. Go figure.

PS Instead of having a constant go at me, why not spend 5 minutes to research the job market in EU and Asia? I am not the enemy here, just get a reality check please. Remember Long Tail and Air Belgium, both r.i.p.? Do you even know the take home pay at ASL or Cityjet etc?

[Freehills]

Shortage in India too, off set by Go Air stopping flying. But Air India and Indigo are struggling to recruit fast enough to meet expansion plans.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Frank, here is a link to the recruitment site of the Lufthansa Group.

https://www.be-lufthansa.com/en/pilot

No vacancies for experienced pilots at the mainline, they occasionally recruit cadets only if at all. Upgrade time around 15 years for 737 and 20+ for long haul. Some limited offers at the low cost sub brands. Please research the pay scale at Eurowings or Discover, trust me, you will be in for a shock. Then subtract 45% tax and you might need a drink and some fresh air. These jobs are extremely poorly paid, you work a lot, and some contracts put you on no pay in low season. It's reflecting the very opposite of a shortage, they obviously get away with offering these low figures or they would up them.

The pay deal at LH is only possible because of enormous union power, similar to the US. It does NOT reflect a shortage and it's worth to look at the fine print, LH pilots agreed to previous cuts, which why the current raise looks high. The pay offer is the result of astronomical costs because of previous industrial action crippling the operation, not out of fear of losing staff. I guarantee you they would open every single Champagne bottle in their cellars if high seniority captains on A++ scale would voluntarily leave, the notion they want to keep them is really erroneous.

I do agree with you that we live in truly exceptional times, will see how this all works out in the end.

[YeahNahYeah]

Holy crap! Well, what do you expect - really, what do you expect these days? The most qualified pilots left a long time ago - unless they´re really stuck in Donkie Kong.

I expect to see this featured in the AussieDashCams monthly video on YT at some point!

[magenta magnet]

Condor = 6000 EUR for a F/O pm
German tax on 6000 EUR is 42%

Take home = 3480 EUR

This excludes anything else the company deducts like health insurance etc.

Food for thought, this is the average police officers salary...

[Sam Ting Wong]

Frank, bottom line there is no shortage of experienced pilots jobs in EU! Please don't distract by pointing out pay rise at airlines nobody of us will ever get into. It's as relevant as what UPS or Delta pays: zero. Cityline is hiring? You are looking at 2500 Euro net and 10 years to left hand seat, if you are lucky. Come on, let's not turn this thread into a kindergarden, you are better than this. Don't distract by turning this into "I take a worse job for quality of life" discussion either. I said multiple times, and please just check above, yes, sometimes it might be worth accepting lower pay for quality of life. Of course!! But this is an entire different discussion and topic. It might be worth becoming a gardener in Tuscany or a teacher in Paris, but what has that to do with pilot shortage??? Your accusation I would not see lifestyle over pay is simply not true, I literally just said it again in this very thread:




If you want to leave Asia and return to Europe, or even change jobs within Asia, as an experienced pilot it's extremely difficult and most likely only possible by making extreme financial sacrifices. You will probably end up like Piet, in a mediocre job he only took to be home. As I said a million times before, it could still be worth it, money is not everything, but this is a complete different discussion.

I am talking about alternatives for experienced CX pilots in Asia and Europe, amd I am telling you there are no attractive jobs. Swiss??? You know well this is a lowly paid right seat for life job. Plus neither Swiss nor LH mainline hire anyone past 40 years of age. If you really know the German ( Swiss?) market so well, you should mention that imho. What else you got??? Condor F/O??? Come on, please, not you too.

Condor = 6000 EUR for a F/O pm
German tax on 6000 EUR is 42%

Take home = 3480 EUR

This excludes anything else the company deducts like health insurance etc.

Food for thought, this is the average police officers salary...

Exactly. This is the sad truth.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Any other great airlines that are not hiring you want to talk about?

;-)

[Piet Lood]

Not a matching comparison at all, since as opposed to Reg I am not backpaddling.
Nail meet hammer!

Since you’re too thick to see the Reg comparison, I’ll spell it out for you:
”Okay, besides the US market, the Canadian market, the Australian market, the Indian market, the Asian market, the Middle Eastern market and the European flag carrier market, what have the Unions ever done for us?”
And we’ll keep adding more and more markets.
The fact that YOU don’t qualify for any of these markets because of age, looks or IQ doesn’t mean they’re not there.

Yes, I do know what salaries are at ASL and AirBelgium chief and it is indeed a tragedy.
I already “conceded” that.
Hence I didn’t end up there.
You always seem intent to compare apples and apples (or so you say) and that’s a bit hard when you compare things like housing costs.
i paid about HKD70,000 a month in housing in HKG. Where I am now, I pay less than a quarter of that, for a much nicer place.
I know you “conceded” life style, clean air and children’s education and health already, so I won’t go there.

By the way: AirBelgium is not “r.i.p.” (yet), so there’s yet ANOTHER inaccurate statement. (Sorry for the capitalisation, but not really).

(Is this the “old Piet” yet? Please let me know, since I am DYING to get your approval oh wise one)

[MacTrim]

Bloody PRC spoilt a bloody good Honkies layover !

[captaindbusdriver]

Whatever happened to "The Management" ? Thoroughly enjoyed his posts. Hope retirement is treating you well.

b.
He choked on his coolade!

[captaindbusdriver]

What an amazing. experience...................


At least all the crew are descent people...............

[BuzzBox]

At least all the crew are descent people...............

Does that mean they’re all going down? :}

[Memphis Hubert]

My benchmark is Lufthansa, not Condor.

I am just pointing out invalid points about comparing a Condor career with a police officer.


BTW:
Your assumptions about CityLine are wrong too.
A basic pay of 5500€ for a first year FO translates into 3370-3750€ after tax.

You are making things up.

What I find fascinating is that you defend your career with Cathay tooth and nail when it comes to inaccuracies and when somebody makes an invalid comparison of a year 1 FO to a lifetime average police officer you agree without investigating (as it serves your agenda).

You are clearly biased.

I understand that for you those carriers are not tempting, but it’s not true that there is nothing going on with the legacy carriers.

As I said before it wouldn’t surprise me if Lufthansa opens up for Ready Entries soon.


I am not interested in discussing a pilot shortage as it is too theoretical. Hence I don’t try to use it as an argument.

May I cut into this discussion?

Europe (incl. Germany) is far from any pilot shortage. "Shortages" in the UK may be true, the same in the US, but UK is no more EU-member, thus labour market closed to expats, like it is in the US. If the labor market for pilots in the US would be the same like in the EU, there would absolutely no shortage either, and salaries wouldn't be 500000$+, but end at 300000$.
The examples of Condor aren't fully valid: They neglect massive paycuts at Condor during their Chapter11-bankruptcy, which Condor survived only due to massive aids from the EU and the new investor (Attestor). So what they got additionally just neutralizes some of the cuts.
Other airlines in Germany are still behind pre-corona (like TUIfly with a total of 20% off), Ryanair what is it?, Easyjet has closed it's Berlin base.
So indeed the only "winner" ist Lufthansa, but LH does, as mentioned before, not hire experienced pilots, nor DECs, so they cannot be included in any discussion like this. But be careful: The agreement between LH and "Vereinigung Cockpit" about 25-50% payrise extends over 3 years and includes a one time tax free yearly extra pay of 3000€, as offered by the ministry of finance to all employers/employees in order to cover extra spendings for energy (sharply risen prices due to the Ukraine-war and sanctions against Russia).
Small attempts of Wizzair or Eurowings (Bases ARN, PRG, PMI) to attract pilots with a one time premium pay of 30000€ may be a sign of an improving labour market for pilots (coming from desastrous conditions for pilots before), but are not yet a sign of a "shortage". Only when monthly salaries at the mentioned airlines rise significantly, we might reevaluate the situation.

[corporal klinger]

I concur with Memphis. In a real shortage situation the offered pay would have to be higher and the requirements lower.

[Oasis]

I concur with Memphis. In a real shortage situation the offered pay would have to be higher and the requirements lower.


Salaries don't go up immediately when there is a shortage.

First everybody starts hiring
Second, the hiring requirements are lowered. -seen that across the board
Third they will start to sponsor foreigners -virgin is doing that now
Fourth they will start to improve conditions.

This process ensures lowest cost per new employee, they don't start throwing money at it unless they absolutely have to.
There is a lot of movement between airlines at the moment, low cost to legacy etc. Once low cost can not crew, they will up the salary, then legacy has to follow.

[corporal klinger]

Well, but isn't it fair to say that in this very moment there is no shortage? It may develop as you described, but we don't know that, do we? We all have seen airlines hiring and then stopping again, for whatever reason. Or simply recruiting at a constant rate, to unchanged conditions. There is no automatic sequence from a hiring phase to a shortage.

[Memphis Hubert]

Salaries don't go up immediately when there is a shortage.

First everybody starts hiring
Second, the hiring requirements are lowered. -seen that across the board
Third they will start to sponsor foreigners -virgin is doing that now
Fourth they will start to improve conditions.

This process ensures lowest cost per new employee, they don't start throwing money at it unless they absolutely have to.
There is a lot of movement between airlines at the moment, low cost to legacy etc. Once low cost can not crew, they will up the salary, then legacy has to follow.

The problem is indeed, that Europe is in a downturn already for many years, even at legacy carriers. To a certain extent this didn't hurt, since inflation was low or zero, while now still averaging 6% in Europe, with core inflation figures (w/o energy etc) even higher. In contrary to that airlines even deteriorated their T&Cs further and further, gaining momentum during the pandemic and in a total summary even LH-guys are "behind schedule", concerning their purchasing power, not talking about most non-legacy carriers.
Of course T&Cs now improve, but still there are enough qualified pilots, rushing in from anywhere, as Europe is a open labour market, compared to UK and US. And as long the mentioned salaries i.e. of Condor are attracting people from somewhere, being a huge improvement for them (unless they start calculating deduction for social welfare and taxes, as well taking into account living costs in Germany - a tiny appartment in the big and affluent cities costs 2000€/month, and the 6000€ mentioned above will result in 1500€ left after all deducted), there will be no "shortage".
The myth of "pilot shortage" has always been maintained by flight academies, even in worst times, in order to attract new students willing to pay. Most of them however never managed to get into one of the bigger airlines, heaving been left behind disappointed.

[Oasis]

Well, but isn't it fair to say that in this very moment there is no shortage? It may develop as you described, but we don't know that, do we? We all have seen airlines hiring and then stopping again, for whatever reason. Or simply recruiting at a constant rate, to unchanged conditions. There is no automatic sequence from a hiring phase to a shortage.


Well, I would say that there is a shortage, but that we are not yet at the stage where they start throwing with money, which would depend if the shortage is maintained and the bottom line is threatened.

I do see it progressing to that stage, though..

Like I wrote before, I see lots of pilots going from a to b and from c to a, but effectively no new pilots are entering the scene. Once the airlines realise they are losing as many people as they are gaining and things settle down, they have to attract from outside or up the money. (which they should, pay is generally terrible for pilots in the UK and Euroland)

[dream747]

There is no shortage of pilots so to speak.

There will be many individuals good and suitable enough to join the cadet programme but it does take time for them to be productive for the airline.

There are also many pilots out there who would not hesitate to take up a position with Cathay, especially those coming from turboprops, military or those with jet hours but working for really much more undesirable employers.

However, there is a shortage of well qualified and highly proficient pilots with above average capabilities and skills. CX probably can’t attract these guys as much as they could in the past for reasons we can all agree.

This might lower the experience levels in CX but this doesn’t necessarily mean it is unsafe.

There is no shortage of pilots, just a shortage of highly experienced and proficient ones.

When to know there is a shortage? When $ goes up. Just as we have seen in specifically in the US.As of now, again, no shortage in Asia or HK.

[Fac6]

Ex-CX guys over in Europe are saying there are plenty of jobs. Virgin are recruiting, BA are recruiting, Norse, Jet 2, Ryanair and EasyJet. DHL are also looking for NTR 777 and 767 pilots. I have friends who went to AeroLogic and they are on great pay and conditions. Not as good as here in the US but they are all climbing in regards to conditions and pay. The fact that some think there are hardly any jobs over there is baloney

[Oasis]

Ex-CX guys over in Europe are saying there are plenty of jobs. Virgin are recruiting, BA are recruiting, Norse, Jet 2, Ryanair and EasyJet. DHL are also looking for NTR 777 and 767 pilots. I have friends who went to AeroLogic and they are on great pay and conditions. Not as good as here in the US but they are all climbing in regards to conditions and pay. The fact that some think there are hardly any jobs over there is baloney
Also Tui, whizzair (direct entry command).

[corporal klinger]

Fac6, Oasis, you are right, there are job openings, but..

- most are at LCC
- most are right seat only
- most are very poorly paid ( Whizzair, Eurowings)

To my knowledge Aerologic is offering about 8-9K after tax incl some overtime ( this could be wrong, I have no first hand source). This would be for long-haul with a difficult commute ( dep. on your residence obviously) and 80-90 hours block, round the world trips, 3 men to HKG via india.. I don't find that very attractive if true, it certainly would be on the lower edge for this kind of ops, and a 50% + cut (!) for a Cx CN.

Norse T&E are very poor, BA recruiting mainly for a LCC with significant less pay, Eurowings PMI base is 4500 Euro net for CN..So yes, technical job offers, but acceptable..?

Interestingly, most of the jobs you mentioned are from the UK, not EU. Seems like there is an imbalance and continental Europe not catching up for some reason.

[Memphis Hubert]

Fac6, Oasis, you are right, there are job openings, but..

- most are at LCC
- most are right seat only
- most are very poorly paid ( Whizzair, Eurowings)

To my knowledge Aerologic is offering about 8-9K after tax incl some overtime ( this could be wrong, I have no first hand source). This would be for long-haul with a difficult commute ( dep. on your residence obviously) and 80-90 hours block, round the world trips, 3 men to HKG via india.. I don't find that very attractive if true, it certainly would be on the lower edge for this kind of ops, and a 50% + cut (!) for a Cx CN.

Norse T&E are very poor, BA recruiting mainly for a LCC with significant less pay, Eurowings PMI base is 4500 Euro net for CN..So yes, technical job offers, but acceptable..?

Interestingly, most of the jobs you mentioned are from the UK, not EU. Seems like there is an imbalance and continental Europe not catching up for some reason.

Fully agree to each word. The "imbalance" in the UK is due to their now closed labour market, while rest of Europe (at least EU + Switzerland, Norway etc) are open, thus getting "relief" from anywhere, even though it has "catched up", concerning the number of jobs (not T&Cs).
Aerologic, as mentioned has got a though rostering w/o taking time zones aspects into consideration (beyond mandatory EASA-rules), like legacy long range carriers do. The jobs there are ok, but on the long term the rosters can be accepted only by working part time. The pay instead doesn't (yet) reflect that, even though they made huge profits during past years.

[a334]

Gents, i'm not sure what you're all on about saying there are no jobs and there's no shortage. The simple reality is, there is a shortage, globally, period. Whether it's a "shortage" of experienced pilots, is irrelevant. There are seats to be filled, that aren't being filled. Left or right, does not matter. All the ME3 airlines continue to hire like crazy, and without having to read pprune, I have first hand accounts from several ME3 pilots who tell me there are not enough pilots to keep up with the renowned demand since the recovery has started from covid.

Oasis hit the nail on the head perfectly. Airlines will start hiring, and will lower requirements before they will pay, and then if they can't get locals, they'll find a way to attract talent from abroad. Step 3 all depends on the country, it's easier in some to bring in foreign talent then in others.

I can tell you that in Canada, hiring minimums have gone way down, and I mean way, way down. There is one regional that pay is so bad, there are more pilots leaving then being hired. What has the solution been thus far? While trying to bridge the pay gap, it doesn't happen overnight... so step 2 has already happened. 5 plus years ago, you weren't getting an FO job without 2500 hours, now? Hiring mins are 500 hours, yes, you read that right, 500 hours, and there actually have been pilots with 500-700 hours getting hired lately... The same can be said of the legacies in Canada, where it used to be 4000-5000 hours, some have now gone down to as low as 1500 hours... and yes, while the mins are one thing and normally most hired are usually way above mins, those times have changed, and lot's of pilots have been getting hired right at the mins, and in some cases, well below the mins!

Times are changing, whether some of you want to believe there is a shortage or not is up to you, but it does exist, and it is a global phenomena more or less

[mngmt mole]

People are getting hired at US majors with 1600 hrs. Anyone that suggests there is "no shortage" is not willing to recognise reality

[a334]

People are getting hired at US majors with 1600 hrs. Anyone that suggests there is "no shortage" is not willing to recognise reality

Yup I believe it. Don't remember where I heard/read, but one of the fastest widebody captain upgrades happened in the last year or so at one of the majors (Delta I believe it was). It was something like 3 or 4 years in the company, when he/she got the upgrade...

​​​​​

[Gnadenburg]

It was actually 6 months. 767 command. I was at Delta a few months ago and got the story from their management. It wasn’t just one person either. They are cannibalising their training capacity this summer to meet air travel demand. So the pilot shortage is multi-faceted. It will hit Asia by early next year in my view however I don’t believe it will positively affect CX pilots. The mindset of both the pilot group and management is mutually deleterious and self-destructive.

[corporal klinger]

I think Memphis made a very valid argument: labour shortages are the result of restrictions for foreigners. Without those restrictions shortages won't easily materialise. Airlines like Cathay can recruit literally anyone from anywhere. Most countries in America and UK restrict influx of labour, as a result employers fight for those few with a local license, green card etc. The EU's single market and Asia's open door policy might be a very important factor going forward. Additionally, as Frank A. rightly pointed out, Chinese youth unemployment is at record high, same situation in Southern and Eastern Europe. I disagree respectfully with Gnadenburg, I don't see any individual responsibilities within the pilot group, the dominant factors are of a macro-economic nature in my opinion.

[a334]

It was actually 6 months. 767 command. I was at Delta a few months ago and got the story from their management. It wasn’t just one person either. They are cannibalising their training capacity this summer to meet air travel demand. So the pilot shortage is multi-faceted. It will hit Asia by early next year in my view however I don’t believe it will positively affect CX pilots. The mindset of both the pilot group and management is mutually deleterious and self-destructive.

Woaw, I didn't realize it was 6 months... that's, impressive, to say the least

[Air Profit]

It was 6 months. Junior base slots went Captain upgrade in that period of time from joining. My friends son has been there less than a year (757) and he could upgrade now, but prefers to be a relatively senior FO with a better schedule. The bigger point is that a senior CX captain now earns less than a two year FO at a US major. I remember when senior management told the CX pilots that they would always be paid at least 10% more than the next highest paid in the world. A rather sad and pathetic joke now

[Memphis Hubert]

Gents, i'm not sure what you're all on about saying there are no jobs and there's no shortage. The simple reality is, there is a shortage, globally, period. Whether it's a "shortage" of experienced pilots, is irrelevant. There are seats to be filled, that aren't being filled. Left or right, does not matter. All the ME3 airlines continue to hire like crazy, and without having to read pprune, I have first hand accounts from several ME3 pilots who tell me there are not enough pilots to keep up with the renowned demand since the recovery has started from covid.

Oasis hit the nail on the head perfectly. Airlines will start hiring, and will lower requirements before they will pay, and then if they can't get locals, they'll find a way to attract talent from abroad. Step 3 all depends on the country, it's easier in some to bring in foreign talent then in others.
........
Times are changing, whether some of you want to believe there is a shortage or not is up to you, but it does exist, and it is a global phenomena more or less

For me, I didn't say there is no shortage. I just tried to separate between continents, countries and markets. I fully agree with the reports from the US, I've got friends there and needless to say, why the big legacy carriers there are offering fantastic salaries, being 3x as much as the highest salary with European legacy carriers.
But once again - this is an "artificial" shortage, promoted by strict immigration rules and the pilots unions in the US. If the "shortage" would seriously endanger the business of US-carriers, they would already have asked Washington to easen Green Card-requirements for pilots. With the given T&Cs, I could imagine myself applying there, even commuting from Europe.
And Europe (once again: Europe, not US/UK!) doesn't reflect that. Yes, there are now jobs, however there are still closures (i.e. due to sanctions against Russia) and cutbacks like at SAS or last years TUI Airlines (massive layoffs), which help other airlines fill their vacancies. As Oasis said, it will take a long run, before this affects T&Cs. And neither Lufthansa, nor Air France and others are offering DEC-opportunities, and they never will, as unions keep an eye on that.

A good summary is this post from last year (NetJets): pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/642679-netjets-europe-hiring-again-20.html?ispreloading=1#post11242083
It might be 1 year old, but basically the situation hasn't much changed till now, except that there are more (low paid) vacancies.

[a334]

For me, I didn't say there is no shortage. I just tried to separate between continents, countries and markets. I fully agree with the reports from the US, I've got friends there and needless to say, why the big legacy carriers there are offering fantastic salaries, being 3x as much as the highest salary with European legacy carriers.
But once again - this is an "artificial" shortage, promoted by strict immigration rules and the pilots unions in the US. If the "shortage" would seriously endanger the business of US-carriers, they would already have asked Washington to easen Green Card-requirements for pilots. With the given T&Cs, I could imagine myself applying there, even commuting from Europe.
And Europe (once again: Europe, not US/UK!) doesn't reflect that. Yes, there are now jobs, however there are still closures (i.e. due to sanctions against Russia) and cutbacks like at SAS or last years TUI Airlines (massive layoffs), which help other airlines fill their vacancies. As Oasis said, it will take a long run, before this affects T&Cs. And neither Lufthansa, nor Air France and others are offering DEC-opportunities, and they never will, as unions keep an eye on that.

A good summary is this post from last year (NetJets): pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/642679-netjets-europe-hiring-again-20.html?ispreloading=1#post11242083
It might be 1 year old, but basically the situation hasn't much changed till now, except that there are more (low paid) vacancies.

I wouldn't entirely call it an "artificial" shortage because of immigration laws, because it isn't just that. Yes, it plays a factor, but one of the biggest reasons the US has a shortage is the 1500 hour rule to operate any part 121 aircraft. I won't get into all the reasons why the "shortages" exist, we've gone off topic enough

Whatever the reasons are, T&C's in the US have gone from some of the worst in the world, i.e regional FO's making 20k USD a year 10-15 years ago, to now, arguably, the best T&C's in the world, where-as Cathay, once one of the best, if not the best, airlines to work for in the world, has gone the complete opposite way in recent years.

Call it what whatever you want, it's unfortunate, and clearly, cyclical, based on many variables. That's the reality, and the point I wanted to make is, people need to accept the ever changing environment, and not pretend that everything is fine, when it's not.

[Fac6]

Fac6, Oasis, you are right, there are job openings, but..

- most are at LCC
- most are right seat only
- most are very poorly paid ( Whizzair, Eurowings)

To my knowledge Aerologic is offering about 8-9K after tax incl some overtime ( this could be wrong, I have no first hand source). This would be for long-haul with a difficult commute ( dep. on your residence obviously) and 80-90 hours block, round the world trips, 3 men to HKG via india.. I don't find that very attractive if true, it certainly would be on the lower edge for this kind of ops, and a 50% + cut (!) for a Cx CN.

Norse T&E are very poor, BA recruiting mainly for a LCC with significant less pay, Eurowings PMI base is 4500 Euro net for CN..So yes, technical job offers, but acceptable..?

Interestingly, most of the jobs you mentioned are from the UK, not EU. Seems like there is an imbalance and continental Europe not catching up for some reason.

Are you still in CX? If so, without sounding rude, you're slating all of these carriers who are inferior to CX's package yet all of y'all are complaining about CX? Just sayin...

[a334]

We are not there yet with Cathay ending up at the opposite end.

That might be still on the horizon.

Youth unemployment in China poses a huge threat to the existing pilot group.*

The mainlanders might be the new locals, who could drag salaries in HKG down further.

The old locals (HKG folks) might end up in the role of the old expats with never ending evaporating terms until the salaries are in balance with benchmark China.

The old expats are either gone, on their way out or a dying species anyways.

Once they can fill the seats with enough Mainlanders, Cathay/Beijing could get rid of the remaining ‘expat locals‘ by making it mandatory to speak a native tongue, like in KLM, AF, LH, etc. or by other means.

Cathay/Beijing would never do that, right ?


*11.6 Million college graduates in China this year alone, not even including Chinese graduates from overseas returning to China.
20% youth unemployment and Cathay opening the cadet track for mainland China.

Yes you're right it's not the complete opposite, but the trend has certainly been downwards in any case. All one can do is accept this reality, or move on from it.

[Tiger pork]

Any look at the Classifieds in the Saturday SCMP will show that in addition to English, Cantonese fluency and Putonghua is mandatory. Even in the most English essential jobs such as NETS, English teaching in schools, and lecturing in the various Uni's. Sadly or not, this will be a prerequisite in a couple of years in the Airline world, where other than the Cockpit, it's pretty much evident now.

[Piet Lood]

Defeatist much?
You can also try to put your 2 cents in and fight that “inevitable” change.
But if you want to join the likes of STW and eat every **** sandwich that is thrown your way, have at it.

[cxflog]

Fight the change? Yeah right, that’ll never happen. What’s left of the pilot group doesn’t have any sort of backbone, and the ones that do packed up and left. A toothless “union” and the muppets in management will ensure nothing ever changes, for the better anyway. I do wish my ex-colleagues all the best though, there’s plenty who had no choice but to stay and I respect that.

[Tiger pork]

Mr/Mrs Lood, I admire your colonial chutzpah!!!!!

[Oasis]

Aoa going for industrial action. And I have to say that they couldn’t have picked a better time in history to do so. Many there are actively looking to get out anyway so they DNGAF.

[Sam Ting Wong]

With all due respect, but "actively looking to get out" ? What does that even mean? From a management's perspective they are showing up at sign on, and that is that. Nobody cares if they do so happy or sad. Frank A. Memphis, Tiger Pork, Dream 746 and Klinger all make good points in my opinion. Reality is Cathay can recruit globally, with no experience. Possibly soon infinite numbers from up North. Delta can't.

Fact is the majority is interested in keeping their job and will not go on strike, and with fair reason. The picture of the brave and heroic Westerner who is fiercely defending his contract is fanciful. There is almost no risk involved at home, legislation protects union delegates etc. I find it a bit rich to look down on locals who are somehow not "brought up" to fight. Maybe watch the Joshua documentary and spare a thought for the hundreds of locals in confinement as we speak and then think again. Some are just lucky and live and work in the right country, that's all. No personal achievement. The political system in HK is realistically most probably too dominant, the pilot group too diverse. Industrial action most likely will not happen, it's not very useful nor fair to scapegoat. Market forces reign here, for the better and the worse. For what it's worth, my vote is in favor of industrial action, but I have almost zero hope it will ever happen. Is anyone today denying the almost ridiculous picture of past "actions", like training and union membership ban? If we go for it it must be more serious than that, no more pretending, it must be real with all the possible consequences. Everything else is embarrassing. Against the notion of Piet I am not against industrial actions, I just don't believe it will happen. Bring it on.

Speaking of the devil, Piet, as usual, obsessively I dare say identifies individual misconduct and cowardly opportunism as the culprit. After joining as B scaler himself and leaving without a single day on strike he is now pointing fingers at his old colleagues. Ironically, after Cathay, the Piets of this world often join a low cost or start-up back home, because it serves them. The very companies in competition with the worshipped unions (and hence often closed-up) flagshps. Undercutting the colleagues on bigger pay at home then suddenly is ok. Or even better, they come back as direct entry captains to Cathay. After finally realizing not all is so rosy out there. After the cuts, with no housing, but conveniently on their fleet of choice. To be very clear, I personally have no problem with that, things change, but to point fingers after an entire career purely following own interests, this is really textbook hypocritical behaviour.

I also find it quite interesting that a lot of colleagues I flew with, especially Americans and Brits, quite often are politically positioned well to the right. Which is fine of course in principle, none of my business. They move voluntarily to a place they know has no comparable labor rights, they happily enjoyed the free market in HK resulting in cheap labor while it served them, domestic helper for instance. The low tax, only possible because of a hardcore neoliberal system. More than once I heard colleagues arguing the political unrest should stop, better to accept the circumstances and live with it ( read: don't protest if it damages the airline business/tourism). They shook their heads when Uber was restriced in HK, and every taxi fare rise was met with disgust. They accepted based positions, simply because the pay was alright and it suited their lifestyle. No real union power was just fine as long as the pay and the number of G days was. They lived and breathed free movement of labor, as expats, following market forces, always on the look out for the best deal. Adam Smith's free agent incarnations. Living the capitalist dream. But the moment it's against their interests they turn into little Trotzkis or Brexiteers. Well, different discussion I guess.

[Carpets]

Any look at the Classifieds in the Saturday SCMP will show that in addition to English, Cantonese fluency and Putonghua is mandatory. Even in the most English essential jobs such as NETS, English teaching in schools, and lecturing in the various Uni's.

​​​​​​This is simply not true. Chinese proficiency, Cantonese or otherwise is not normally a requirement for a NET position in a school, learning centre or even private tutoring. My significant other is currently employed at a government primary school teaching English and there was no expectation of Chinese proficiency now, or when they applied.

[Memphis Hubert]

Probably Cathay won't probably get candidates from the US, but all other parts of the world. They must decide themselves, whom they compete with regardings T&Cs, and the main employers in this field are Low Costers from anywhere and the classical ME-Airlines. The latter have their workforce compelled to live in countries (passport withdrawn) which are no inch better concerning democratic/free systems than HK.
But anybody is free to decide where to apply. At least job offers are by far better then they used to be in the last years.

[Fac6]

Or even better, they come back as direct entry captains to Cathay. After finally realizing not all is so rosy out there. After the cuts, with no housing, but conveniently on their fleet of choice.

Incorrect. Some guys over here who are heading back have been told that whatever fleet they left on they go back on. There is no "fleet of choice."

What is correct, is that no industrial action will happen. Things can't be that bad if people are returning. I was lucky enough to join a legacy carrier but many are finding that here in the US the grass is definitely not greener. The economy here is in sharp decline helped by a President who has lost his mind and the alternative that could possibly win the next election will further ruin whatever economy we have left. I doubt there will be a pilot shortage then.

[veryoldchinahand]

I see that Oasis is as usual is in the vangard of the failed nonsence brigade - has it not dawned yet that their battle to down Cathay Pacific by what ever means possible failed some time ago and most of the troops have already fled the lost cause.

[corporal klinger]

Incorrect. Some guys over here who are heading back have been told that whatever fleet they left on they go back on. There is no "fleet of choice."

What is correct, is that no industrial action will happen. Things can't be that bad if people are returning. I was lucky enough to join a legacy carrier but many are finding that here in the US the grass is definitely not greener. The economy here is in sharp decline helped by a President who has lost his mind and the alternative that could possibly win the next election will further ruin whatever economy we have left. I doubt there will be a pilot shortage then.


I know of two ex-Cathay 747 pilots who got a personal call from TB to ask them to come back, on fleet of choice. I don't know how many in total received this offer, but I know 100 % these two have.And it makes sense. As usual, Cathay FOP is purely cost driven. We have demand on two fleets and no demand on the third fleet which nobody wants anyway.
How convenient.

[TinFoilhat2]

I know of two ex-Cathay 747 pilots who got a personal call from TB to ask them to come back, on fleet of choice. I don't know how many in total received this offer, but I know 100 % these two have.And it makes sense. As usual, Cathay FOP is purely cost driven. We have demand on two fleets and no demand on the third fleet which nobody wants anyway.
How convenient.

I hear the 777 has been quiet at least up until about June or July of this year and theA330/350 has been busy. I don’t know about the A320 fleet or how busy it is but where are most new hires being sent now?

[ACMS]

A lot of 777’s still in ASP with no crew to fly them…….

[Progress Wanchai]

A lot of 777’s still in ASP with no crew to fly them…….

The real reason those jets are still there is that cx don’t have the engineering resources to get them out. The board has decided its billions are better off being spent buying the government’s share of the company thereby removing the two pesky observers rather than spending on the airline’s infrastructure or its people.

But I understand this is a pilot’s forum and pilot’s know best and FOP is the only department in cx that is important. So I’ll let you all get back to explaining how your life satisfaction is dependent on your pay cheque, fully appreciating that the average expat who has made the move to Asia or the Middle East is a mercenary and by definition is driven more by money than the average citizen.

But obviously not driven enough for two of you to write a motion initiating industrial action. Far more effective venting on WhatsApp groups.
The strong have left, the weak remain.

[corporal klinger]

How often did "the strong" initiate (real) industrial action before they left ? ;-)

[raven11]

Well, industrial action was strong enough in 99 to force the Company to concede on their ridiculous demands; and in 2001 to cause CX to summarily fire 49 pilots, including the AOA committee members, without cause. But lately, not so much….

[Fac6]

I know of two ex-Cathay 747 pilots who got a personal call from TB to ask them to come back, on fleet of choice. I don't know how many in total received this offer, but I know 100 % these two have.And it makes sense. As usual, Cathay FOP is purely cost driven. We have demand on two fleets and no demand on the third fleet which nobody wants anyway.
How convenient.

Maybe they were check/training in CX before they left or had perfect training reports and P files but the people I know were not given any choice. Also, the rumours here are that some guys were told they'd go to a specific fleet and when they arrived in HK they were switched to the B747F.

[corporal klinger]

No, line captains. Just have a look at the seniority list.

On the original topic of a looming "implosion" of Cathay, an interesting comment in the SCMP today, Looks like a lot of political will at force to increase HKIA revenue in the light of the expansion..

Lavinia Lau Hoi-zee, the chairwoman of the Board of Airline Representatives of Hong Kong and also a Cathay Pacific Airways executive, said the single biggest obstacle to the Post-Covid recovery of airlines’ full capacity was labour shortages at the airport and about 20 per cent of the group’s 72 members had yet to resume flights to Hong Kong.

Hong Kong authorities have approved 98 per cent of nearly 2,900 applications from non-local aviation workers under a pilot scheme to import labour to ease a manpower shortage in the industry.

Among the 10 job categories under the scheme, passenger services officers, ramp services agents, and aircraft maintenance mechanics or technicians took up more than half of the approved application

[VforVENDETTA]

Cx management made the bet they could sh!t on their people and not pay the price. Obviously they made the wrong bet. Just like the wrong bet they made a few years ago with the fuel hedging debacle costing cx several billion dollars. Was that the moment of no return? Did they then decide that the only way to survive after that mega massive loss was to gut staff compensation with pilots being the ones with the biggest targets on the figurative compensation backs? Did the non-airline top managers of cathay not understand this staff group can't be easily or quickly replaced?

It's business 101 that in order to gain or hold brand loyalty, you must first have staff loyalty. Cathay has zero staff loyalty. Not just among pilots, but among all others. They can't get anyone to want to work for cathay despite over a year of active recruiting efforts. The only ones who are staying for now are the desparates who don't have any other options out there. How much staff loyalty do you think they have? After leaving cathay I'm now working at an airline that Dwarfs the size of what cathay once was. The quality of pilots we had at Cathay was so much higher it's not even comparable. It's a mild sh!t show in comparison. Lots of ex-cathay pilots where I am now and others around who had no intention of leaving cathay until... . Experience and skill levels previously routinely present on cathay flight decks is never going to be replaced by hiring questionable pilots or cadets. A percentage of those who will end up staying due to not having other choices will have the previous levels but that will only be a small percentage.

For those who claim cx can just hire locals to replace the expats they have lost and are still losing, don't leave out the fact that even if they hired all 2000+ pilots they currently lack locally today, these would need to spend the next couple of years in training before they qualify as only second officers to fill a seat only at cruise. Then another couple of years and more training to become junior first officers, etc. To replace an experienced first officer with a locally hired cadet it would take many years. To replace a captain, many many years. What happens to cathay's market share during this time? That market share has been on open sale for some time now. Foreign carriers have been offered deep discounts on landing fees by hk government. Let's remember cx market share now includes that of cathay dragon. To gain previous number of pilots and other staff to re-establish the previous market share, they have to hire those numbers too. So it's not just the 2000 pilots needed to re-staff cathay's pilot ranks, it's the full number of pilots cathay dragon had to operate that part of the market share too.

Capitalism without a leash around it's neck. Anything goes for business in the name of profits. A company can do whatever it likes to it's employees in hk. There's no concept of wrongful termination in hk labor law as we were told by HKAOA lawyers.

There's a very fitting expression that says "give any one species too much rope and they'll fukk it up". Cathay had no limit on how much rope when it came to what they could do with their employees and the result is what we have now. They can't even attract enough people let alone being picky about who they hire. Selection process? What selection process? They can't even get their hands on enough applications to staff the airline past 50% in all departments if they hired every single applicant.

Cathay is up a nasty sh!t creek of it's own making and its well deserved.

But HK in general is up a sh!t creek of it's own making also for the same reasons and its also well deserved. No accountibility of decision makers. Did they really think doing crazy for a couple of years would mean anything but disaster for the economy for a very long time? If not permanently clipping hk economy. No accountability and all the rope they wanted. Result is always the same.

[SuzieWong]

No, line captains. Just have a look at the seniority list.

On the original topic of a looming "implosion" of Cathay, an interesting comment in the SCMP today, Looks like a lot of political will at force to increase HKIA revenue in the light of the expansion..

Lavinia Lau Hoi-zee, the chairwoman of the Board of Airline Representatives of Hong Kong and also a Cathay Pacific Airways executive, said the single biggest obstacle to the Post-Covid recovery of airlines’ full capacity was labour shortages at the airport and about 20 per cent of the group’s 72 members had yet to resume flights to Hong Kong.

Hong Kong authorities have approved 98 per cent of nearly 2,900 applications from non-local aviation workers under a pilot scheme to import labour to ease a manpower shortage in the industry.

Among the 10 job categories under the scheme, passenger services officers, ramp services agents, and aircraft maintenance mechanics or technicians took up more than half of the approved application

Correct. We are stalled at averaging about 800 flights per day at the moment and despite airlines are holding most of the declared slots, nobody is using them- because they can’t.
The 80% IATA Use-it-or-lose-rule has been waived for several seasons already. The expectation was that things would start picking up and they would have to hand them back this coming Winter season if not flown. I suspect it will get waived again because HKIA ops are down the toilet now.
That third runway could well be the most expensive white elephant in history at 140 billion HKD and counting.

[finestkind]

If memory serves Dubai's expansion was to make it the Riveria of the Middle East and a new business hub of the world. The way things are in Hong Kong they could not have done more if it was planned.

[corporal klinger]

In my ( totally biased) opinion, HKIA will show impressive traffic figures for the next decade and will outgrow DXB.

Four reasons:

1) Competition. Saudia/Ryad and Indian airlines will enter the market. Huge investments on the way, the new airport in Delhi and expansion in Ryad will enable to offer a very similar product, as does Qatar and Turkish already. No hinterland,a too small catchment area of Dubai does not really offer any other growth other than transfers. But the new competition will compete in tourism and finance/business travel as well, if you have only artificial attractions, then anybody can copy it. A mall or man-made beach looks just the same in Ryad, Abu Dhabi or Doha. Finance institutions might prefer Ryad in the future, more capital ( biggest IPO ever) and gigantic investments in new cities in the region (The Line etc).

2) HKIA expansion. It will make it one of the most efficient and modern airports in the world. Shopping/Restaurants/ Asia Expo will offer a world class product.

3) Technology. New aircraft types will offer more and more direct and longer range flights. No stopover required. The A380 on the other side is well beyond its technological peak, it will become increasingly inefficient.

4)Greater Bay integration. High speed train and ferry connections will make HKIA more attractive as a final
destination in the future. The integration with the mainland will intensify, supported by a Pro-Beijing gov, and offer new business and growth opportunities. Hong Kong will be the finance and corporate center of the South of China, and HKIA the main gate.

[Progress Wanchai]

VforVENDETTA,

If you ever want your opinion to be taken seriously, then at least get your facts remotely correct.

Management have said they want to be at 70% of 2019 CX/KA capacity by the end of 2023 and 100% by the end of 2024. The CX/KA fleet has been reduced by 10%, which has been fully replaced by the HKE fleet and crew which is already at 100%. Therefore CX crew numbers need to be at 60% and then 90% of 2019 numbers.

At its peak in 2019 CX/KA had a combined 3,850 crew. For CX to meet its Dec 2023 target it requires 2,300 crew. 100 LESS than it currently has. Admittedly the crew are not ideally distributed in terms of ranks and fleets, but a 100 excess is a lot different to your 2,000+ shortage. Yes, there’s some work to be done in 2024 obviously. But with their weak, compliant workforce it’s not a ludicrous aim.

As for those that remain or returning having no choice, that is ludicrous. Why are you at your current airline? Why are you an airline pilot at all? It’s not because you don’t have a choice. It’s because it’s the best choice available to you based on your current wants and needs, your family’s wants and needs, with a compromise between the short term and long term. The golden handcuffs at all airlines are long gone.

In 1993 when CX introduced B scale, the A scalers claimed it would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards.
In 2001 following the 49ers it was claimed the lack of a meaningful contract would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards.
When expat conditions were removed for new hires in 2009 it was claimed it would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards?
When a productivity contract was introduced in 2018 it was claimed it would lead to hiring issues and reduced standards.

Which generation of hiring issues and reduced standards did you fall into?

I’m no apologist for management. They are appalling, but consistently so. The real problem with CX FOP is the pilot body which has reached a new low of unquestionable servitude. The “majority GC” who are so brave in their fight against the militant HKAOA chairman they couldn’t name themselves or even sign their own letter are the poster child of the current weakness.

[Sam Ting Wong]

PW, while I agree with your analysis of the repeated and unfulfilled prophecies of shortages and standard issues, surprisingly you can't see the same analogy when it comes to the assessment of character.
Would you not agree that past union "actions' have always been pitiful / borderline ridiculous? Training ban, ban of union membership, not working on G days or answering the phone? You could not make that nonsense up. What happened after the 49ers got laid off? Did the rest unite in solidarity and go on strike? I am here 20+ years and I have never seen any meaningful strategy, any real resistance, any willingness to risk anything substantial. Have you?

[Piet Lood]

You would think that after 20+ years you would be able to come up with some good ideas yourself.
That’s if you’re interested in anything else than shouting criticism from the sidelines and defeatist propaganda.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Piet, you can't possibly ask me to bring forward ideas for a cause I over and over said I don't regard as realistic. That is absurd. You can call my perspective "defeatist" if it helps you or makes you feel morally superior. I don't care, but to demand I should come forward with ideas to support your argument is preposterous. I am not shouting from the sidelines, I don't demand anything from anybody, I don't say I am better or smarter, I said remainers are not worse than previous generations.See the difference? Jesus, at least read and think before you go on your usual rant against me. What is wrong with you, man? Get some closure, do yoga or pottery, anything, your obsession with me is really getting out of hand.

[Gordomac]

Well Sam, I think your posts are articulate and reasoned and make for informative, often entertaining reading. It is one of the reasons I still "lurk" around Fragrant Harbour despite the singular criticism from a singular opponent fired up by something weird in the past.

Did you keep getting A plusses ? Kept getting all the chicks ? kept turning down offers from Hollywood ? You know, deep stuff like that ; often highly irritating to lessers.

Let your stalker go and continue the smashing contributions to very interesting debate and development in a once, highly sought after region and Company.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Progresswanchai, how many hard landings a month do you need to judge if standards have dropped?
10, 15?
Or perhaps you'd need one near CFIT?



​​​​​​
​​​​

[Progress Wanchai]

PW, while I agree with your analysis of the repeated and unfulfilled prophecies of shortages and standard issues, surprisingly you can't see the same analogy when it comes to the assessment of character.
Would you not agree that past union "actions' have always been pitiful / borderline ridiculous? Training ban, ban of union membership, not working on G days or answering the phone? You could not make that nonsense up. What happened after the 49ers got laid off? Did the rest unite in solidarity and go on strike? I am here 20+ years and I have never seen any meaningful strategy, any real resistance, any willingness to risk anything substantial. Have you?

You’ve discovered my flaw STW. I’m unable to see the world with the same clarity as a scab. Unfortunately I never will.

ZB,
I’m not saying you’re wrong regarding deteriorating standards. Maybe the A scalers were right 30 years ago with their concerns about hiring GA pilots. We now have conscript trainers from a GA background teaching cadets using a reduced syllabus of training. Certainly an interesting experiment. Beyond my pay grade how that ultimately affects the future of the airline. (Btw, who is the FOP Risk Manager since Pete left?) Are FDAP hard landings spiking that much compared to other eras? It’s there for all to see. As for CFIT, the habitual GPWS offenders were a few former A scale trainers, and they’ve left.

Don’t get me wrong. I do think the company at some stage next year will have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to expand at the rate senior management are telling the market. Between now and the end of 2024 they’ll have to increase the crew numbers by 60 a month with attrition running at a record high (covid years exempted). Considering expansion so far in 2023 is running at 6 a month then that’s going to be quite a trick that STW and his subservient trainers will have to pull off. A mere 1000% increase on the current expansion rate.

One rabbit management are trying to make appear is the annual AFTL flying limit of 900 hours being increased to 1,000 hours. HKAPLA have been successful to date in preventing our lives being any more fatiguing than they already are. As for those of you who see 1,000 hours as a potential pay rise, you’re no student of recent history. The moment management calculated the 747 crew would possibly increase their monthly hours, the company increased the threshold at which MPP kicked in, then lowered the MPP hourly rate. You’ll be told this isn’t a pay cut, you’ll just have to work harder to achieve the same pay. It’ll be interesting to see if the HK Labor Tribunal thinks management are in breach of the Employment Ordinance during the upcoming case.

Fortunately for everyone here, any wins HKALPA/HKAOA has are enjoyed by all crew.
Members and scabs alike.

[ALPHA 69]

You just listed the lowest paying european low cost airlines. Why don't you compare it with a legacy carrier, they are hiring too.
Well even legacy European airlines pay peanuts, look at the salaries of Iberia, BA, Swiss. There are only two decent airlines to work in Europe Lufthansa and Air France and is almost impossible to get your foot in the door with any of them. Europe is a s... place to be a pilot

[ALPHA 69]

I read a lot of comments here but nothing factual. Can someone with full knowledge of the facts share what are the actual work condictions at Cathay for new hire FO, any insight
would be highly appreciate.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The problem is that we recently got hit by a a decline in T&C, the absolute numbers are not yet digested. So in due course a lot of people will tell you how stupid or naive you are to even look at Cathay ( ironically mostly from people still working there).

In a nutshell, whether you like it in HK/ CX or not depends on your individual circumstances. Single or with an employable partner, interested in a life in Asia on one side of the spectrum, with a bored housewife and three kids in western private schools on the other. You can expect about 2-3 times European LCC salaries, but living costs are ( probably, but not necessarily) higher too. Your personal situation will determine how much you spend, save, travel, miss home /enjoy it here. There is no objective answer, it really depends, Do your own research, come for a few days with open eyes and see for yourself. Forget what others say, it's meaningless.

[Piet Lood]

Indeed! What others say is meaningless, especially the one above.
If you complain about cx and you still work there, you'll be marked a hypocrite.
If you complain about cx and you have resigned, you need to move on and stop your whining.
Or even better: you'll be falsely accused of secretly having rejoined and being a hypocrite.

[pill]

Some maths. Takes away the emotion. Since the contract was removed and replaced by an amenable hand book of not many pages at all. (pages equal protections basically)
46% of the pilots have decided to leave. Less than 2% have returned. Not including the pilots involved in the diabolical mess that was the termination of Dragon.
Look up "Quiet Quitting", suspect it's rampant in those who have stayed.

[Xwindldg]

“Forget what others say, it's meaningless”


Solid advice. Don’t ask people who actually work and live here, they know nothing! Do your own research with the figures the company give you, it will surely be the most accurate info.

[Sam Ting Wong]

That is not how I meant it for what it's worth. It all depends on personal preferences and the individual situation.

Why this is so hard to accept will remain an eternal mystery to me.

[veryoldchinahand]

"Cathay Pacific imploding"
Still ??

- its taking a bloody long time is it not.

Perhaps it's going to be induced by route expansion, new aircraft , too many pilots earning too much again or increased shareholder profits .
Perhaps not ?
Anyone any idea when this forecast 'implosion" is going to happen - this year,next year, sometime
-or maybe never ?

[Rug]

VOCH,

In an attempt to lend your musings in this forum some remote semblance of credibility, would you care to confirm;

- If you are, or ever have been, an airline pilot?

And;

- If you are, or ever have been, employed by Cathay Pacific?

[veryoldchinahand]

Rug.This is an anonymous forum for good reason.
I could ask you the same intrusive questions but would not dream of doing so nor would I expect any answer if I did.

[bm330]

That's a No.

[Rug]

Rug.This is an anonymous forum for good reason.
I could ask you the same intrusive questions but would not dream of doing so nor would I expect any answer if I did.

Appreciate you taking the time to confirm - it's helpful to know you've no relevant knowledge of the issues here despite your implied tone of qualification on all matters Cathay. We can consider your posts accordingly.

[Pickuptruck]

Still is pretty amazing that crew are either leaving in the middle of a command course to start at the bottom again with a major elsewhere or leaving having just completed a command course at CX to start again at the bottom of a major. I don't know anyone who has turned down the likes of QF to stay on at CX instead. 20 or 30 years ago the whole idea of CX T&C being so poor that walking away from a command at CX was the smartest option would have most CX crew erupting in laughter. People actually used to leave the likes of BA or AC to come to CX, let that sink in for a minute.

[Gordomac]

Pickuptruck; Very true. Some of us went to extra-ordinary lengths and still didn't get in. It was the carrier of choice to hundreds of professional pilots. It's fall from such grace is nothing short of tragic. Human nature gives me a kind of satisfaction but to those who were successful in those highly competitive times must feel very sad at the current state.

[Frank W. Abagnale]

Still is pretty amazing that crew are either leaving in the middle of a command course to start at the bottom again with a major elsewhere or leaving having just completed a command course at CX to start again at the bottom of a major. I don't know anyone who has turned down the likes of QF to stay on at CX instead. 20 or 30 years ago the whole idea of CX T&C being so poor that walking away from a command at CX was the smartest option would have most CX crew erupting in laughter. People actually used to leave the likes of BA or AC to come to CX, let that sink in for a minute.

Do you remember Anna talking about the lovely big transformation back then ?
They had the present POS18 in mind a very long time ago.
They just needed the opportunity.

What you guys don't seem to understand:
1.The old Cathay is dead and it won't come back.
2.The transformation includes a change from a lifetime career into just another temporary contract job - the new Cathay doesn't expect you to stay for life nor do they want you to stay for life.
3.The end game of this big transformation will be a Chinese airline with Chinese pilots on Chinese salaries.

You can whine as much as you like.
It won't change a thing.

[gipilot]

Finally someone who understands what exactly is going on at Cx. Guys, just enjoy the fact that you can still fly an airplane and have a job. Many can’t even do that anymore. And as for Cx, you must accept that it’s only going to get worse or else you’ll drive yourself crazy.

[Oddball77]

Do you remember Anna talking about the lovely big transformation back then ?
They had the present POS18 in mind a very long time ago.
They just needed the opportunity.

What you guys don't seem to understand:
1.The old Cathay is dead and it won't come back.
2.The transformation includes a change from a lifetime career into just another temporary contract job - the new Cathay doesn't expect you to stay for life nor do they want you to stay for life.
3.The end game of this big transformation will be a Chinese airline with Chinese pilots on Chinese salaries.

You can whine as much as you like.
It won't change a thing.
The fact that CX are now hiring Mainlander cadets is indicative to where HK is heading in the long term, 2047 isn't as far away as you might like to think; full integration of HK into GBA is the plan. Plus from a cost stand point of view it just makes sense to hire locally; HK and China have an educated work force - why the need to hire pesky expensive expats anymore? You only need 200 hours TT to sit in the RHS of an A320. The 'good old expat' HK days are over.

[pill]

But you need 4000 hours to sit in the left. That takes the kids 10 years round here. There's still a bit of flogging in this dead horse yet.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The fact that CX are now hiring Mainlander cadets is indicative to where HK is heading in the long term, 2047 isn't as far away as you might like to think

I like to think 2047 is 24 years from now

People actually used to leave the likes of BA or AC to come to CX, let that sink in for a minute.

Good example of a one-sided perspective in my opinion.Today we have hundreds of LCC all over the world, a human resource that did not exist 20 years ago. It doesn't matter if BA et al is more attractive as an employer.



What you guys don't seem to understand:
1.The old Cathay is dead and it won't come back.
2.The transformation includes a change from a lifetime career into just another temporary contract job - the new Cathay doesn't expect you to stay for life nor do they want you to stay for life.
3.The end game of this big transformation will be a Chinese airline with Chinese pilots on Chinese salaries.
.

I think a lot of people plan to stay for life, and it will be a career airline for them, just not the same type of people. Again, I think this is a one-sided western perspective. I agree recruitment might include Chinese, but this is a problem for 2030 and beyond, Pill has a point here. Personally, my main concern as a 20-30 year old would be technology rather than that.

Pickuptruck; Very true. Some of us went to extra-ordinary lengths and still didn't get in. It was the carrier of choice to hundreds of professional pilots. Its Sordo, I would argue it still is the choice of hundreds fall from such grace is nothing short of tragic. Human nature gives me a kind of satisfaction but to those who were successful in those highly competitive times must feel very sad at the current state.

Gordo, I would argue it actually still is the choice of hundreds, but not by the 5000 hour Western expat who moves his family here in expectation of a great career. Does it matter in the end? I don't think so personally.

[HoldenCaufield]

I like to think 2047 is 24 years from now

Oh no it isn't. 2047 is happening well before 2047.

[SIDS N STARS]

2047 is just a number.

I can guarantee you, buy 2030, the HKD will be a thing of the past and we'll all be buying things in CNY, Cantonese will be limited to a few locals as Mandarin becomes the native language due to the filth from the north migrating to the south. The line between HK and Shenzhen will remain in place only to serve as a reminder of how good it used to be.

[AQIS Boigu]

2047 is just a number.

I can guarantee you, buy 2030, the HKD will be a thing of the past and we'll all be buying things in CNY, Cantonese will be limited to a few locals as Mandarin becomes the native language due to the filth from the north migrating to the south. The line between HK and Shenzhen will remain in place only to serve as a reminder of how good it used to be.

Not too sure about the HKD but you can't kill a language of 100 million people - it's been tried before and failed.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I disagree.

Hong Kong and its financial system is apparently useful for the Chinese as it is, otherwise it would not exist. As if Beijing needs to wait until 2047 because it says so on a piece of paper ( the same piece of paper also promises democracy). If you concur that they can do whatever they like with Hong Kong, and it's hard to deny that surely, then the only possible conclusion is that the current agreement is beneficial to them. The notion the HKD e.g. is just tolerated by China does not make sense in my opinion.

And why would it matter to us if Cantonese as a language survives? I also would argue changing a local language has been indeed done multiple times in history, look at English in the Commonwealth ( Australia debatable :-), Spanish in Latin America and French in Northern Africa, just as an example. Additionally, mandarin is only dominant in China because many other local languages and dialects have been made redundant over the past, e.g. Hakka.

[Frank W. Abagnale]

I think a lot of people plan to stay for life, and it will be a career airline for them, just not the same type of people. Again, I think this is a one-sided western perspective. I agree recruitment might include Chinese, but this is a problem for 2030 and beyond, Pill has a point here. Personally, my main concern as a 20-30 year old would be technology rather than that.

It's not a one sided western perspective, I would rather say your perspective is a one sided Chinese perspective.
At some stage it is likely that this airline will go Chinese, with Chinese pilots on Chinese salaries.
Of course most Chinese would see this still as a lifetime career at 'home'.
Where could pilots from Mainland China work anyways besides China ?

Sure, it might happen after 2030.
That won't make the cut for many right now and expecting a life time career (stressing on present salary that is, not on Chinese market reduced salaries).

With the relations between the US/the West and China going South and high youth unemployment in China this process will probably accelerate.
Furthermore it won't need a Taiwan invasion to kill this airline.
Sanctions on China due to weapon deliveries to Russia or whatever might be enough to stop this airline from flying to North America, Europe, etc..

It might not sound likely to you, but this powder keg named China might be taken into consideration by other pilots looking for a job and who are more interested in a stable outlook for their families.
Maybe that's part of the reasons why the seniority list is not really growing.

[Sam Ting Wong]

A valid point, a swing to recruit from China is possible. The political risks you mention are fair as well, one would have to make a balanced evaluation depending on the individual alternatives, e.g. compared to Middle East or South Aftica.

Whether a lifetime career still exists in aviation at all is debatable, I am convinced In 15-20 years AI and automation in association with demographic pressure especially in China will change everything. Growth of technology will be exponential and faster than expected. Just imagine the potential savings, no FTLs, no hotel cost, no recurrent training, no leave, no sick days, no recruitment issues. You would not "only" save the cost of crew, but many more, sim instructors, dispatch, admin, etc etc. The saving potential is enormous, which is it why it will be implemented. Entering this line of work today at age 20-30 is mad in my opinion. You will end up at age 40-50 with non-transferrable skills in an obsolete profession.Best you can hope for is a job scope compared to a lonely MTR driver with corresponding pay and social status.

It's not Cathay that is imploding, its our profession.

[starmaid]

Halo,

I've my DEFO interview in a few weeks. All said and done Cx is doing way better than the present ruck I'm stuck in.

Can yal please let me know what to expect for the interview? Anyone been through the rounds recently? I'm flying in from SFO.

Cheers

[mngmt mole]

And therein lies one of the bigger problems. CX can hire anyone from anywhere. No nationality requirements, therefore happy to hire people who will work for very little...as long as it's a bit more than the "ruck" they are leaving. No financial reward or security can survive that reality.

[stevieboy330]

At the end of the day you want to be happy & healthy, right? Cathay is not the place for that, it hasn't been for many years. Five mins on this forum and you can see a thousand reasons why. It's really pretty simple.

[Sam Ting Wong]

How about those who don't like it leave, those who did leave enjoy their newfound happiness, and both of the former groups leave those still there/ going there in peace?

[Klimax]

How about those who don't like it leave, those who did leave enjoy their newfound happiness, and both of the former groups leave those still there/ going there in peace?

No way Hose! We´ll hang around here to spread bitterness into your naïve faces and remind you of the glorious world outside Cathay Pathetic. Deal with it.

[Progress Wanchai]

How about those who don't like it leave, those who did leave enjoy their newfound happiness, and both of the former groups leave those still there/ going there in peace?

For the non-scabs amongst us there is another option.

If you don’t like it, fix it.

[chards]

For the non-scabs amongst us there is another option.

If you don’t like it, fix it.

onya tough guy. Of course you didn’t sign cos18 then?

[TBL Warrior]

A valid point, a swing to recruit from China is possible. The political risks you mention are fair as well, one would have to make a balanced evaluation depending on the individual alternatives, e.g. compared to Middle East or South Aftica.

Whether a lifetime career still exists in aviation at all is debatable, I am convinced In 15-20 years AI and automation in association with demographic pressure especially in China will change everything. Growth of technology will be exponential and faster than expected. Just imagine the potential savings, no FTLs, no hotel cost, no recurrent training, no leave, no sick days, no recruitment issues. You would not "only" save the cost of crew, but many more, sim instructors, dispatch, admin, etc etc. The saving potential is enormous, which is it why it will be implemented. Entering this line of work today at age 20-30 is mad in my opinion. You will end up at age 40-50 with non-transferrable skills in an obsolete profession.Best you can hope for is a job scope compared to a lonely MTR driver with corresponding pay and social status.

It's not Cathay that is imploding, its our profession.

I couldn't agree more. And I would add that the AI revolution has already begun, it's just that many of us are not yet fully aware of its presence or the magnitude of its impact. In the near term, it will certainly streamline our ground-based operations. Imagine CX without the tedious IT minions!

However, this transition will eventually result in us all being replaced . We will see a ULR that typically requires a four-person crew, reduced to two, then one, and ultimately, no human pilots at all, maybe with some sort "pilot" overseeing multiple aircraft missions from a single location, stepping in only when intervention is necessary, and who will probably only have a theoretical understanding of how to fly an aeroplane - much like a 10 year old playing with flight sim on their PC.

I firmly believe we are witnessing the final phase of the traditional aviator era. It's quite possible that the last conventional pilot, as we understand the role today, has already been born.

[Pickuptruck]

How about those who don't like it leave, those who did leave enjoy their newfound happiness, and both of the former groups leave those still there/ going there in peace?
This is the amazing part. The number of guys who love COS 18 ,who cling to the notion that CX is better than ever. We need to work at least 21-27 hrs a month more to make up for the pay cut under COS18 and guys are begging and praying the CAD lift the 900 hr max so they can work more 110 hr months to make the same money. And they're happy to do it. Many have lost a weeks leave under COS18, no problem! I doubt the company realised just how many would probably work for nothing just to be a CX pilot. Were losing a huge bunch of 777s back to the lessors? Well that's a good thing because freights dropping off. We're losing London slots? Well that's a good thing because we burn extra gas now getting there. If you thought the Koolaid drinking was impressive in the past, try nowadays......

[Tiger pork]

Team, sadly this will get much worse unless the pilot community rallies as a global and unified entity, such as an International ALPA, where ICAO licences are recognised as such. There is a great need to standardise licences and type ratings since, post covid, the demand to fill seats is pushing the training machine to its limits. Multinational cockpits are not the thing of the past but low hour pilots from South America, India, Russian Federation etc are now coming aboard with only basic experience and often with previous types pretty much unsuited for transition to jet equipment. In an effort to be less profligate with resources, Corporate Execs have reduced conversion times to below the bare minimum, inside ridiculously tight windows with no time to synthesise and often with unsuited cockpit pairings. This will eventually bring standards on the line to having little skin on the bone and the mantra.." safety is our greatest concern"..will become even more of a cliche than it currently is.
The pilot's associations and Unions have lost all their teeth outside the USA. Unless there is a cohesive effort to confront the machinations of ..not just the Legacy Airlines but the Low costs too, those current rosters, monthly hours and salaries will go the same way as the Maritime Industry..and that is severely south. The various Pilot Unions now have to regroup and send the strongest of messages to all the Airline Execs, that our Profession can no longer suffer the corporate tampering that has pushed post covid levels so blatantly into the banks of the shareholders and the Executive bonuses..

[Kitsune]

This is the amazing part. The number of guys who love COS 18 ,who cling to the notion that CX is better than ever. We need to work at least 21-27 hrs a month more to make up for the pay cut under COS18 and guys are begging and praying the CAD lift the 900 hr max so they can work more 110 hr months to make the same money. And they're happy to do it. Many have lost a weeks leave under COS18, no problem! I doubt the company realised just how many would probably work for nothing just to be a CX pilot. Were losing a huge bunch of 777s back to the lessors? Well that's a good thing because freights dropping off. We're losing London slots? Well that's a good thing because we burn extra gas now getting there. If you thought the Koolaid drinking was impressive in the past, try nowadays......

COS18… the best dog**** sandwich you ever ate.

[HoldenCaufield]

Back to 'implosion', I notice that flights in and out of Aus and Europe have dropped significantly in December compared to October/November. Odd. Surely Dec is peak passenger travel

[WhatShortage]

This is the amazing part. The number of guys who love COS 18 ,who cling to the notion that CX is better than ever. We need to work at least 21-27 hrs a month more to make up for the pay cut under COS18 and guys are begging and praying the CAD lift the 900 hr max so they can work more 110 hr months to make the same money. And they're happy to do it. Many have lost a weeks leave under COS18, no problem! I doubt the company realised just how many would probably work for nothing just to be a CX pilot. Were losing a huge bunch of 777s back to the lessors? Well that's a good thing because freights dropping off. We're losing London slots? Well that's a good thing because we burn extra gas now getting there. If you thought the Koolaid drinking was impressive in the past, try nowadays......
It's unbelievable what certain nationalities would do to compensate what executives have done to the salary and still, no complains. Unbe ******* lievable.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Implosion imminent :)

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/cathay-pacific-favours-airbus-over-boeing-in-$2.71-bln-freighter-deal

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Let's quickly train another 800 cadets to crew the new planes, that'll do it.

[Cavallier]

COS18… the best dog**** sandwich you ever ate.

Never a truer word spoken !!!!!

The Cav 😂

[blind pew]

Team, sadly this will get much worse unless the pilot community rallies as a global and unified entity, such as an International ALPA, where ICAO licences are recognised as such. There is a great need to standardise licences and type ratings since, post covid, the demand to fill seats is pushing the training machine to its limits. Multinational cockpits are not the thing of the past but low hour pilots from South America, India, Russian Federation etc are now coming aboard with only basic experience and often with previous types pretty much unsuited for transition to jet equipment. In an effort to be less profligate with resources, Corporate Execs have reduced conversion times to below the bare minimum, inside ridiculously tight windows with no time to synthesise and often with unsuited cockpit pairings. This will eventually bring standards on the line to having little skin on the bone and the mantra.." safety is our greatest concern"..will become even more of a cliche than it currently is.
The pilot's associations and Unions have lost all their teeth outside the USA. Unless there is a cohesive effort to confront the machinations of ..not just the Legacy Airlines but the Low costs too, those current rosters, monthly hours and salaries will go the same way as the Maritime Industry..and that is severely south. The various Pilot Unions now have to regroup and send the strongest of messages to all the Airline Execs, that our Profession can no longer suffer the corporate tampering that has pushed post covid levels so blatantly into the banks of the shareholders and the Executive bonuses..
swissair did that building up crossair and ignored the warnings until an ex aeroflot pilot having been trained on Russian artificial horizons which indicate the opposite way than Western ones rolled upside down and made a smoking hole in Rumlang..Good luck ..I won't be flying with your lot again.

[Klimax]

Team, sadly this will get much worse unless the pilot community rallies as a global and unified entity, such as an International ALPA, where ICAO licences are recognised as such. There is a great need to standardise licences and type ratings since, post covid, the demand to fill seats is pushing the training machine to its limits. Multinational cockpits are not the thing of the past but low hour pilots from South America, India, Russian Federation etc are now coming aboard with only basic experience and often with previous types pretty much unsuited for transition to jet equipment. In an effort to be less profligate with resources, Corporate Execs have reduced conversion times to below the bare minimum, inside ridiculously tight windows with no time to synthesise and often with unsuited cockpit pairings. This will eventually bring standards on the line to having little skin on the bone and the mantra.." safety is our greatest concern"..will become even more of a cliche than it currently is.
The pilot's associations and Unions have lost all their teeth outside the USA. Unless there is a cohesive effort to confront the machinations of ..not just the Legacy Airlines but the Low costs too, those current rosters, monthly hours and salaries will go the same way as the Maritime Industry..and that is severely south. The various Pilot Unions now have to regroup and send the strongest of messages to all the Airline Execs, that our Profession can no longer suffer the corporate tampering that has pushed post covid levels so blatantly into the banks of the shareholders and the Executive bonuses..

Yes, the consequences are to become reality very, soon, and the bizav community is seeing that right now as well. Nobody is bringing the truth to the table just yet, but soon enough after claiming some more lives that will all change. The same will happen with commercial airline operations, where we are already seeing a substantial increase in incidents and close to accident occurrences. Bring out the popcorns and watch - it´s going to be a nasty 1-3 years ahead of "why did "we" allow this to happen!. You have been warned - clowns.

[Klimax]

swissair did that building up crossair and ignored the warnings until an ex aeroflot pilot having been trained on Russian artificial horizons which indicate the opposite way than Western ones rolled upside down and made a smoking hole in Rumlang..Good luck ..I won't be flying with your lot again.

Jez, yeah the Swiss genius Crossair - the amount of accidents within that branch. Yikes.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Implosion, explosion, what is it now? 😂

[Rie]

Jez, yeah the Swiss genius Crossair - the amount of accidents within that branch. Yikes.
Isn't one of the higher ups at UO ex-Crossair? might explain some things

[cadetjockey]

Or operate single pilots ops lol

[Klimax]

Implosion, explosion, what is it now? 😂

Brother of a different MOFO. Are you still with CX, after all these years? or are you like myself someone who actually let go of these circus clowns?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Brother of a different MOFO. Are you still with CX, after all these years? or are you like myself someone who actually let go of these circus clowns?

Doesn't look like you did let go to me.

[jumbobelle]

Yes, the consequences are to become reality very, soon, and the bizav community is seeing that right now as well. Nobody is bringing the truth to the table just yet, but soon enough after claiming some more lives that will all change. The same will happen with commercial airline operations, where we are already seeing a substantial increase in incidents and close to accident occurrences. Bring out the popcorns and watch - it´s going to be a nasty 1-3 years ahead of "why did "we" allow this to happen!. You have been warned - clowns.
Staistically, no we're not seeing a 'substantial' increase'. In fact, ICAO's accident and fatality trend is distcinctly down on pre-COVID levels.

[framer]

In fact, ICAO's accident and fatality trend is distcinctly down on pre-COVID levels.
I reckon it’s because nobody is listening to their managers harp on about fuel savings anymore and just adds whatever they want.

[Dragon Pacific]

More cancellations to save CNY.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-01-07/cathay-pacific-to-reduce-flights-through-to-end-of-february

[Dilbert68]

Just think how much profit we would be making if we actually had pilots to fly all those extra flights?

[Zi Peng]

Is it lack of pilots ? Is it cabin crew ? Or is it both ?
Or maybe we have enough pilots but in the wrong places !
Or maybe they recalled people too late to save a penny ! Who knows ?!
Now at times where you would expect to make money we cancel !
Once again no heads rolling down the stairs from upper floors.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Is it lack of pilots ? Is it cabin crew ? Or is it both ?
Or maybe we have enough pilots but in the wrong places !
Or maybe they recalled people too late to save a penny ! Who knows ?!
Now at times where you would expect to make money we cancel !
Once gain no heads rolling down the stairs from upper floors.

nothing will happen to upper management, two left without any care in the world believing they made the right decision, while the DFO is scrambling to sell a handbook to the masses.

the board is very negative towards a cost increase in front line operations, they WILL NOT APPROVE any substantial increase.

This leaves lower ranks pedalling a sub-standard contract that will only attract sub standard candidates.

[cygnet78]

soon they will take ALL the pilots applying to CX. good news for a lot of ppl. congrats ......

[Goldeye]

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3247761/fix-quickly-possible-john-lees-message-hong-kongs-cathay-pacific-amid-3-days-extensive-flight

Wow, did senior management not advise the government board appointees that closing the bases would be short-sighted? I'm not laughing.... really.

[Babyjet_dododo]

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3247761/fix-quickly-possible-john-lees-message-hong-kongs-cathay-pacific-amid-3-days-extensive-flight

Wow, did senior management not advise the government board appointees that closing the bases would be short-sighted? I'm not laughing.... really.

There so much to unpack here, but what I foresee is, as the government is cracking down on the company, the company will further crack down on front line staff. Happened during covid, will happen again now.

I will not be surprised if I get an email tomorrow announcing the new sickness management policy. Which no doubt will have the screws further tightened.

[Progress Wanchai]

Instead you received an email from Head of Flying Training wondering why online courses aren’t being completed, when it was the HFT himself who removed the duty times from your rosters which had allowed these courses to be completed within the AFTL limits.

At a time when the company publicly acknowledges crew are hitting flight and duty time limits, thereby making it more difficult to legally complete online courses, the company simultaneously removes the excess hours added to the RT, making it more difficult still.

Does he actually wonder why these courses aren’t being done, or are these emails a smokescreen and distraction to show the adults in the room he’s proactively doing something, when in reality it’s his actions that have contributed to the undesirable outcome.
i am assuming the HFT isn’t so clueless as to not understand the additional hours on the RT was not an RP issue, but an AFTL mitigation to ensure crew were legal to fly their published roster.

[Bekol delay]

Instead you received an email from Head of Flying Training wondering why online courses aren’t being completed, when it was the HFT himself who removed the duty times from your rosters which had allowed these courses to be completed within the AFTL limits.

At a time when the company publicly acknowledges crew are hitting flight and duty time limits, thereby making it more difficult to legally complete online courses, the company simultaneously removes the excess hours added to the RT, making it more difficult still.

Does he actually wonder why these courses aren’t being done, or are these emails a smokescreen and distraction to show the adults in the room he’s proactively doing something, when in reality it’s his actions that have contributed to the undesirable outcome.
i am assuming the HFT isn’t so clueless as to not understand the additional hours on the RT was not an RP issue, but an AFTL mitigation to ensure crew were legal to fly their published roster.

Since when were these hours ever counted for AFTLs? It was only ever a duty time limit, and it was interfering with the rostering of minimum rest. Sims aren't counted for the 900 limit.

[ZootBoot]

Perfect time to be arranging some coordinated action. Pity the union is weaker than my granny carrying her shopping.

I hope plenty of people catch COVID or become stressed in the next 2 months.

[KABOY]

Hong Kong’s Cathay Pacific to set up task force over extensive flight cancellations, as airline apologises and says worst passed for latest cuts This is truly priceless, a taskforce to identify why they have no pilots.

Looking forward to all the reasons apart from contract terms, as that's not what a taskforce is about. It will have to have a major technical reason that can justify a task force.

What a muppet show....

[pill]

I wonder if being a lifestyle brand has gotten in the way of being an airline? The beauty of having quietly quit is that I couldn't care less either way.

[Progress Wanchai]

Since when were these hours ever counted for AFTLs? It was only ever a duty time limit, and it was interfering with the rostering of minimum rest. Sims aren't counted for the 900 limit.

Since the day the additional hours were added to the RT sessions. Both sims and regulatory online courses count towards cumulative duty time. How is your duty time spent doing online courses now calculated by the company?

[u777k]

An issue anyone on the line saw coming 12 months ago yet it requires a special taskforce to figure out. How on earth are these managers still in jobs, let alone making still making decisions about how to fix the problem going forward.
Truly laughable, all of it.

[VforVENDETTA]

None of us believed they would do it because for sure this would be the result. They can't be that stupid, can they? When they did it it was a shocking surprise. They cut their own throat, and proudly displayed the bloody knife.

Not just cathay but hk in general was so hateful towards expats making good money. They were openly saying let them go, we don't need these expats.
Now they're f'ed because so many expats left.

What made them think if they took away what had to be done for decades to get qualified expats to hk to do jobs hk itself didn't have enough qualified people for, they would still stay or be attracted to keep coming?

Half empty high rises and half staffed airlines.
More brand new high rises and new airplanes they have coming online soon will be making this even worse. The worst has yet to come.

hk government now demanding to know what the f caused this is hilariously comical. They should have protected themselves from unscrupulous employers such as cathay by having laws and regulations preventing what cathay did to its employees with impunity, at least in short term. Long term result is here and it's damaging cathay AND hk and they still don't want to admit to the glaring mistake that caused all this. They can't even take the first step to fix this sh!t show by admitting their mistake, their miscalculation. Therefore it won't get fixed yet.

it's going to get worse for cathay and hk and it's well deserved. It's amusing to watch.

[Bekol delay]

Since the day the additional hours were added to the RT sessions. Both sims and regulatory online courses count towards cumulative duty time. How is your duty time spent doing online courses now calculated by the company?

The duty time is counted for the cumulative duty hour limits; 55 in 7, 95 in 14, and 190 in 28.
These sim and online course hours do not apply to the 28-day 100-hour, and 12-month 900-hour limits which are solely defined by flight time.

[Progress Wanchai]

The duty time is counted for the cumulative duty hour limits; 55 in 7, 95 in 14, and 190 in 28.
These sim and online course hours do not apply to the 28-day 100-hour, and 12-month 900-hour limits which are solely defined by flight time.

Correct.

So I ask again, how does the company now calculate your duty time doing online regulatory courses now they’ve removed the long standing practice of adding additional duty hours to your RT sessions?

While the old practice wasn’t perfect, it was something that had kept the company, the HKAOA and the CAD satisfied.

[Climbpowder]

https://gbcode.rthk.hk/TuniS/news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1735646-20240110.htm

Cathay Pacific admitted on Wednesday that it had underestimated the number of pilots it needed in reserve to maintain its normal operations, leading to recent flight cancellations.

In a statement, the airline's chief operations and service delivery officer, Alex McGowan, regretted having to cancel flights at short notice, and acknowledged that it was failing to live up to the standard expected by customers.

“I would like to extend a sincere apology to our customers affected by recent travel disruptions. Over the Christmas and New Year period, we underestimated the number of reserve pilots we would need,” he said.

“Given our January pilot rosters were already set in mid-December, the lack of adequate reserve levels persisted into January. In order to stabilise the current operation, we needed to cancel further flights across the first two weeks of January.”

The airline said it has contacted affected passengers to offer alternative travel arrangements, usually within 24 hours of their original departure time.

Cathay said it has also cancelled additional flights on non-peak days until the end of February to ensure that all customers booked to fly during the peak Lunar New Year period between February 7 and 18 can travel as planned.

On average, 12 flights are cancelled each day. The peak was on January 7 when 27 flights were cancelled.

The airline assures that the number of cancellations will decrease in the coming weeks.

McGowan said he would lead a task force to identify and address the underlying issues to improve the airline's services.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Don't forget that in the last survey, "intention to stay" was at 48%, which the DFO saw as a positive point.
​​​​​​Nevermind that 52% are actively looking at other jobs.

Even a 30% pay raise wouldn't stop most from leaving, knowing well how the company can cut their contracts at will.

The problem is not a recruitment issue, it is a retention issue.

Give us our old contract (like any other airline in the world did) and maybe we'll talk.

[cygnet78]

How come other HK base airlines with lower pay scale have no shortage of pilots but CX being highest paid have this issue ? I wonder what so special of them ?

[Babyjet_dododo]

Don't forget that in the last survey, "intention to stay" was at 48%, which the DFO saw as a positive point.
​​​​​​Nevermind that 52% are actively looking at other jobs.

Even a 30% pay raise wouldn't stop most from leaving, knowing well how the company can cut their contracts at will.

The problem is not a recruitment issue, it is a retention issue.

Give us our old contract (like any other airline in the world did) and maybe we'll talk.

The only way the board will agree to a 30% pay rise is if the MPP was raised to 84 hours a month. So bye bye Productivity pay!

48% have intentions to stay, I would say 50% of them are new or recent joiners are too old to move on, married to a local and/or pure incompetent in operations, the remaining 50% are locals.

for the other 52% they want to leave but too scared to test the waters.

[raven11]

Dear cygnet78,

I flew Cathay for 30 years. For three decades, I had a front row seat to a never ending stream of cost reduction measures that manifested themselves in two ways: constant cuts to pay and benefits, along with constant reductions to the standards of hiring and the training of pilots.

Pilot pay and benefits were constantly on the chopping block. It became a pattern of abuse. Every few years new contracts would be imposed in a sign or be fired campaign of intimidation. Inevitably, as the lower pay packages attracted fewer and fewer experienced pilots, recruitment quality standards were reduced. Bizarrely, managers boasted that the reduced standards still attracted top pilot talent….and so the cuts continued.

As well as the pay cuts, cost efficiencies were imposed on what used to be minimum training requirements, such as minimum crew experience levels and minimum crewing levels on long range and ultra long range flights. It was alarming to witness the constantly diminishing standard of pilot experience on the flight deck. Warnings to management were shrugged off.

Pilot’s flying rosters were also on the block and began to reflect an abusive interpretation of the required flight time limitations. By international convention, maximum flight time limitations are meant to be exercised only in the short term to deal with extreme and unforeseen circumstances (typhoon). Yet, in an effort to scrimp and save money, Cathay management began to roster pilots to the legal limit on a permanent basis. Every assigned flight pattern was stretched to the absolute legal limit. Rest patterns rostered between flights became the absolute bare minimum allowed by law. The outcome should have been predictable, unsustainable levels of pilot fatigue and burn out was the result.

Multiple warning letters from Senior Training Captains to management about these and other cost cutting safety concerns were ignored. The risks associated with diminishing safety standards were rubber stamped as acceptable safety risks by internal management review. All the while management would crow, without shame, that safety was their top priority (Orwellian).

The never ending spiral of cost cutting and poisonous intimidation succeeded in reducing what was once the best pilot job in the world…to a kafkaesque life of toxic intimidation, malaise and fatigue.

So after 30 years I had enough. I gave three months notice, packed up my family and left. A clerk oversaw my release and walked me to the door.

Cathay is indeed reaping what it has sowed.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Dear cygnet78,

I flew Cathay for 30 years. For three decades, I had a front row seat to a never ending stream of cost reduction measures that manifested themselves in two ways: constant cuts to pay and benefits, along with constant reductions to the standards of hiring and the training of pilots.

Pilot pay and benefits were constantly on the chopping block. It became a pattern of abuse. Every few years new contracts would be imposed in a sign or be fired campaign of intimidation. Inevitably, as the lower pay packages attracted fewer and fewer experienced pilots, recruitment quality standards were reduced. Bizarrely, managers boasted that the reduced standards still attracted top pilot talent….and so the cuts continued.

As well as the pay cuts, cost efficiencies were imposed on what used to be minimum training requirements, such as minimum crew experience levels and minimum crewing levels on long range and ultra long range flights. It was alarming to witness the constantly diminishing standard of pilot experience on the flight deck. Warnings to management were shrugged off.

Pilot’s flying rosters were also on the block and began to reflect an abusive interpretation of the required flight time limitations. By international convention, maximum flight time limitations are meant to be exercised only in the short term to deal with extreme and unforeseen circumstances (typhoon). Yet, in an effort to scrimp and save money, Cathay management began to roster pilots to the legal limit on a permanent basis. Every assigned flight pattern was stretched to the absolute legal limit. Rest patterns rostered between flights became the absolute bare minimum allowed by law. The outcome should have been predictable, unsustainable levels of pilot fatigue and burn out was the result.

Multiple warning letters from Senior Training Captains to management about these and other cost cutting safety concerns were ignored. The risks associated with diminishing safety standards were rubber stamped as acceptable risks by internal management review. All the while management would crow, without shame, that safety was their top priority (Orwellian).

The never ending spiral of cost cutting and poisonous intimidation succeeded in reducing what was once the best pilot job in the world…to a kafkaesque life of toxic intimidation, malaise and fatigue.

So after 30 years I had enough. I gave three months notice, packed up my family and left. A clerk oversaw my release and walked me to the door.

Cathay is indeed reaping what it has sowed.

The toxicity was there from when I joined in late 2011. During COVID it got worse, coupled with company and government requirements it took its toll.

During the covid era I had 3 line checks, one with a “hard-a**”. At that point I didn’t care if I passed or failed or got sacked. I had enough with the company, the constant PCR/RAT testing, the quarantine down-route and back in HK and the endless forms. This carried on till I went for my command.

Even now as a commander, I’m unmotivated and couldn’t care less if we took more fuel, I met OTP or not ,,,,,,,

[cygnet78]

Dear cygnet78,

I flew Cathay for 30 years. For three decades, I had a front row seat to a never ending stream of cost reduction measures that manifested themselves in two ways: constant cuts to pay and benefits, along with constant reductions to the standards of hiring and the training of pilots.

Pilot pay and benefits were constantly on the chopping block. It became a pattern of abuse. Every few years new contracts would be imposed in a sign or be fired campaign of intimidation. Inevitably, as the lower pay packages attracted fewer and fewer experienced pilots, recruitment quality standards were reduced. Bizarrely, managers boasted that the reduced standards still attracted top pilot talent….and so the cuts continued.

As well as the pay cuts, cost efficiencies were imposed on what used to be minimum training requirements, such as minimum crew experience levels and minimum crewing levels on long range and ultra long range flights. It was alarming to witness the constantly diminishing standard of pilot experience on the flight deck. Warnings to management were shrugged off.

Pilot’s flying rosters were also on the block and began to reflect an abusive interpretation of the required flight time limitations. By international convention, maximum flight time limitations are meant to be exercised only in the short term to deal with extreme and unforeseen circumstances (typhoon). Yet, in an effort to scrimp and save money, Cathay management began to roster pilots to the legal limit on a permanent basis. Every assigned flight pattern was stretched to the absolute legal limit. Rest patterns rostered between flights became the absolute bare minimum allowed by law. The outcome should have been predictable, unsustainable levels of pilot fatigue and burn out was the result.

Multiple warning letters from Senior Training Captains to management about these and other cost cutting safety concerns were ignored. The risks associated with diminishing safety standards were rubber stamped as acceptable safety risks by internal management review. All the while management would crow, without shame, that safety was their top priority (Orwellian).

The never ending spiral of cost cutting and poisonous intimidation succeeded in reducing what was once the best pilot job in the world…to a kafkaesque life of toxic intimidation, malaise and fatigue.

So after 30 years I had enough. I gave three months notice, packed up my family and left. A clerk oversaw my release and walked me to the door.

Cathay is indeed reaping what it has sowed.
This has been happening for all airlines in the world especially in the middle east since 15 years ago. What makes CX special ?

[main_dog]

Absolutely, but this is a HK forum. More specifically, even EK gave crews back their old terms & conditions after Covid19.

CX, not even close.

[fire wall]

21 yrs for me Raven.
Did a stint on the JRC to try and change that mindset which turned out to be an absolute waste of my time.
When my offboarding process was complete I was told by a pimple faced clerk to “enjoy the rest of my life”
Whilst initially insulted by the flippancy of the comment I have since come to realise that maybe she knew more than she was letting on !
Ditto to all you have stated.

[Tiger pork]

Raven speaks with clarity and sadly its a clarity never picked up by managers, (small m intended). That the many managers are pilots themselves, is testament to where the greed of position and sycophantic promotion continues to prevail as a toxic wedge between the McGowan's of the world and the the cabal in Flight ops who show utter disrespect for those who shape the company..( small c intended). Cx breeds a certain type of hate and its a hate strangely unconnected to salary...and one not really evident in HKE or HKA..sad...

[Progress Wanchai]

Piet, the discussion was about whether there is a GLOBAL shortage, as some in here claim. I am saying there is no such thing, it is a REGIONAL shortage ( as in restricted to certain geographic regions , like the US or Australia).

Get some sleep! 😉

Does that regional shortage now include Hong Kong?

Who knows?
All will be answered by the task force, made up exclusively by the incompetents who masterminded this mess, while excluding those who had been warning for months of the looming fiasco such as the Chairman of the HKAOA. But it would go against the Swire management model to have anyone but Yes men in the room.

As for CX being special in comparison to the Middle East airlines, look at the facts.
CX management claim their pilot contracts are competitive. No individual gets to decide what’s competitive and what isn’t. The market does. There is a steady flow of experienced pilots out of CX to the ME/Europe/Australia/US/Canada. The flow of experienced pilots from those regions to CX is virtually non-existent.

That’s how competitive the CX conditions are.

[Klimax]

The only way the board will agree to a 30% pay rise is if the MPP was raised to 84 hours a month. So bye bye Productivity pay!

48% have intentions to stay, I would say 50% of them are new or recent joiners are too old to move on, married to a local and/or pure incompetent in operations, the remaining 50% are locals.

for the other 52% they want to leave but too scared to test the waters.

The most recent pilot satisfaction survey concluded that 92% of all Cathay Pathetic Pilots w@nk and that the remaining 8% were lying. ;-)

[VforVENDETTA]

https://www.sfgate.com/travel/article/passenger-explains-sfo-flight-diverted-to-lax-18654603.php

Funny. Very funny.

[CISTRS]

More here...

https://twitter.com/pitdesi/status/1754694717684785216?s=46&t=0KJFVn5u8cYfvs1xXiy8yQ

[Sam Ting Wong]

Humble pie, anyone?

[Dingleberry Handpump]

Not really, they’re much worse results than similar hub airlines posted a year ago when CX was deep in the red.

This years figures will be eclipsing.

ps, how much of that will you see? Surely 8-10 months to be equivalent to what went round last year, considering the atrocious basic salary you’re on.

pps, just in time for the Chinese house of cards to crumble (according to more or less everyone but yourself).

[Progress Wanchai]

Humble pie, anyone?

That’s rather ironic coming from you on the very day senior management finally admitted they are unable to meet their expansion targets due to a shortage of crew.

[cadetjockey]

Not really, they’re much worse results than similar hub airlines posted a year ago when CX was deep in the red.

This years figures will be eclipsing.

ps, how much of that will you see? Surely 8-10 months to be equivalent to what went round last year, considering the atrocious basic salary you’re on.

pps, just in time for the Chinese house of cards to crumble (according to more or less everyone but yourself).


That collapse is surely coming, any decade now……
Let's face it, the glory days are over - there’s always someone willing to do the job cheaper than you or I when we started out. how atrocious do you think the salary will be once single pilot / reduced pilot ops is the norm?

[Sam Ting Wong]

That’s rather ironic coming from you on the very day senior management finally admitted they are unable to meet their expansion targets due to a shortage of crew.

Oh no, a lack of crew? That is such terrible news!!

[Dingleberry Handpump]

7 weeks, of your COS18 basic? Am I hearing that right?

Wow. I suppose they know if you haven’t left now, no amount of insult will push you further.

[cadetjockey]

Yes I wish they would keep insulting me like this

[main_dog]

Absolutely. However I would happily give all these bonuses back in exchange for our contracts…

[Babyjet_dododo]

7 weeks, of your COS18 basic? Am I hearing that right?

Wow. I suppose they know if you haven’t left now, no amount of insult will push you further.

Thats great! Enough for me to cover my kid’s education expenses, extra medical insurance coverage and have enough left over to book a weekend getaway in a 3 star hotel in Hong Kong

[cxflog]

Oh but management values you all so very much, keep it up!

[Boulanger]

Are people happy with the recent profit share?

Looking at this from the outside, and I'm not alone on this, it's hard not to be a little bit jealous. Granted, I'm sure getting old contracts back would be preferred, but I'm curious what the sentiment is surrounding this.

[Babyjet_dododo]

Are people happy with the recent profit share?

Looking at this from the outside, and I'm not alone on this, it's hard not to be a little bit jealous. Granted, I'm sure getting old contracts back would be preferred, but I'm curious what the sentiment is surrounding this.

It enough to cover the out of pocket expenses for my kids schooling and the health insurance policy. But what happens next year might not cover my out of pocket expenses.

[VR-HFX]

My poll of people who have been there 20 years plus and stuck it out shows that within the next 2-3 years the whole cohort will be gone, and that includes retirees who are now populating the bat cave. Most are long term HK folk who own property outright and have spouses who have their own businesses. The last structural pillar of the company is about to collapse and so the future is a company kept airborne with compromised standards and lowest cost drivers. Sadly there are many ex's who are becoming more inclined to put themselves and loved ones on other carriers. Sad, very sad.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Yes, heartbreaking.

So just to confirm, the implosion is now postponed to 2027?

[cygnet78]

2127 more likely.... hahahaha