Job prospects after modular ATPL (UK)? Loan or secure a job?

[alexeyAP]

Hello lads, I'm a year or two away from leaving secondary school here in the UK and to be honest I've become infatuated with aviation over the past few years. I would love nothing more than to spend my working hours in a cockpit as opposed to the traditional 9-5 and all the pilots I've spoken to agree wholeheartedly that it is one of the best jobs that one could possibly work. The way I see it integrated is prohibitively expensive while modular is more "grindy" and allows your experience to build up (which should be better for jobseeking right?!). A few questions:

Would you recommend going to uni, getting a secure and well-paying job and saving for a few years then starting training or going to uni and taking out a loan straight off the bat? I appreciate that financial stability may be something that employers are looking for in a candidate, and it would also allow me to get some real experience of industry before starting pilot training. I was considering going to uni for software engineering/computing science, civil engineering, electrical engineering or even aerospace engineering and getting a job in those fields. (I would also hate the idea of an outstanding loan hovering above my head while I complete my studies).
Having got your ATPL, is finding a job difficult? I have heard (or read rather) horror stories of people floating about for years after securing their license looking for a job only to fly bizjets in the end.
Would UK airlines such as easyjet ever even consider hiring modular graduates or do they hire exclusively from their cadet programs? (Again the cost + high risk + low experience/occupational mobility makes this route very very unattractive for me.)

Thanks in advance.

[ManFlex40]

Hello lads, I'm a year or two away from leaving secondary school here in the UK and to be honest I've become infatuated with aviation over the past few years. I would love nothing more than to spend my working hours in a cockpit as opposed to the traditional 9-5 and all the pilots I've spoken to agree wholeheartedly that it is one of the best jobs that one could possibly work. The way I see it integrated is prohibitively expensive while modular is more "grindy" and allows your experience to build up (which should be better for jobseeking right?!). A few questions:

Would you recommend going to uni, getting a secure and well-paying job and saving for a few years then starting training or going to uni and taking out a loan straight off the bat? I appreciate that financial stability may be something that employers are looking for in a candidate, and it would also allow me to get some real experience of industry before starting pilot training. I was considering going to uni for software engineering/computing science, civil engineering, electrical engineering or even aerospace engineering and getting a job in those fields. (I would also hate the idea of an outstanding loan hovering above my head while I complete my studies).
Having got your ATPL, is finding a job difficult? I have heard (or read rather) horror stories of people floating about for years after securing their license looking for a job only to fly bizjets in the end.
Would UK airlines such as easyjet ever even consider hiring modular graduates or do they hire exclusively from their cadet programs? (Again the cost + high risk + low experience/occupational mobility) makes this route very very unattractive for me.

Thanks in advance.

I’ll answer this in three parts.

1.) Is it worth getting a job/ going to uni before starting flight training? Absolutely. Not only will life experience look good on your future CV, you will learn more about yourself than you could ever believe. I worked for 4 years in a variety of settings after leaving sixth form, working in a fast food kitchen to operations manager at a large logistics company to setting up my own business, make the most of your time ‘before’ aviation. It also means that, whilst you’re studying down the modular route, you’re able to earn money and save it for when you need it most. In my case, I spent my weeks working and weekends hour building, whilst saving money for the stage I’m at now, full time ATPL/CPL/IR. That is assuming you wish to do it ‘full time’ modular, you can always work alongside distance learning/weekend CPL lessons!

2.) Is finding a job difficult for modular ATPL holders? No… but also yes. There are two predominant factors at play when it comes to this bit, A.) where you did your training and/or B.) how good you are at networking. Now, it’s common knowledge that recruiters like continuity of training, that is, doing your CPL and IR (perhaps even the additional bits like your ATPL’s, MCC and UPRT) with the same training provider. There are of course many exceptions to this when the market is good, as it is currently, with Ryanair, Loganair and Jet 2 all hiring friends of mine who have completed their training at 2,3 and in one case 4 different training providers. However, there are those jobs out there that are only accessible through going to the right flight school and having a good network in the industry. For example, 3 well known ATO’s have all recently sent modular cadets to easyJet, and at recent recruitment talks, British Airways will be hiring modular cadets for their Euro Flyer winter recruitment.

That being said, here’s a small but distinguished list of where modular guys and girls have ended up this year from my current ATO and friends from others and how they got there;

DHL (school placement)
Wizz Air (open applications on their website)
Ryanair (open applications on their website)
easyJet (school placement)
Loganair (networking- send off an email to HR and get lucky, combined with some school placement)
Emerald Airlines (networking)
West Atlantic (networking)
Jet 2 (PA scheme)
Eastern Airways (networking)
TUI (networking)



3.) Do airlines like easyJet hire exclusively from their integrated partner schools?

No. Again, I am studying full time ‘combined modular’ at a well known ATO whose head of recruitment previously sent modular cadets to airlines like easyJet from a previous ATO and is continuing this today at our ATO. Airlines couldn’t care less what training route you took- so long as A.) your ATPL average is good (BA have quoted 85% average with max 1 retake) and B.) you pass your CPL/IR first series (preferably first time).

Drop me a PM if you have any questions :)

[alexeyAP]

Hi manflex,
Regarding no. 1, I agree that real world experience would be something more valuable for me than anything money can buy. Even testing the waters and establishing connections in other fields (mostly engineering like I mentioned before) would be a great way to build up a 'Plan B' in case aviation doesn't work out. I think that I will take your advice and go find myself a job after sixth form (although I was hoping to start working some retail jobs in S5 (Year 12 in England) and save up some money on the side), the advantages are innumerable. I have also investigated the University Air Squadrons which are run by the RAF (as well as the gliding scholarship which is available from 16 years old) and it seems like a decent way to get hands on with aircraft while doing a degree at uni. Working airside ops at my local field (EDI) might be a shout also? What do you think?

With no. 2, I was looking around at flight schools in my area (Edinburgh) and unfortunately one of my top picks (Tayside) just entered administration a few months ago. I'll keep nosing around but by the time I actually start training things could be very different. Do you think it's better to do a 'semi-integrated' (i.e. save up for the full cost and do modular in one big burst) or learn part-time on the side? My one concern with the latter is that it could take infinitely longer if training is only confined to weekends and holidays as opposed to doing it full time, especially with things like cheaper hour-building opportunities in the States (not like you can commute to Florida for a day or two!).

my current ATO
If you wouldn't mind, could you tell me the name of your ATO? You can PM me if it suits.

​​​​​​​easyJet (school placement)
By 'school placement', do you mean the ATPL school refers students to EZY? Or it's like a tagged integrated program? And do they type rate with EZY as well?

​​​​​​​TUI (networking)
Just a month or two ago I read about Tui offering training which is then bonded for a few years on something like a 25k salary, would you endorse this type of training or are there hidden risks involved? Many people on this forum advise to steer well clear of anything bonded but to be honest it seems like an attractive offer. At the same time, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. And money is not an issue; I would happily accept 25k for a few years if it meant being paid to fly around 737s.

​​​​​​​Airlines couldn’t care less what training route you took- so long as A.) your ATPL average is good
That's good to hear, hopefully if I put my head down and study study study I can eventually get to the happy place :ok:

Many thanks for your reply, it's certainly been very helpful. Best of luck in your studies :)

[Beaker_]

It's also sensible to have a trade/skill to fall back on for the bad times. You'll probably read how cyclical the aviation industry is and a fallback skill/trade would be sensible.

Based on nothing other than my own observation, I'd suggest electrician or plumber... It's almost impossible to find one that's available and the ones that are can pretty much make up their price or pick and choose jobs and people will pay it!

[alexeyAP]

Beaker,
Thanks for the advice, I've definitely thought about how unsafe it would be (job security-wise) to go straight from school to training especially with a big ~50k loan over my head!

a fallback skill/trade would be sensible
Do you think something like airport ops or aerospace engineering is as unstable as the piloting market? After all fedex have to deliver their parcels somehow. I've thought about having a plan B job that's still related to aviation so I would have a good passion for it. A few months ago the head software engineer at Leonardo (one of the manufacturers of the Eurofighter Typhoon, their offices in Edinburgh design radar tech) gave a brief talk at my school and I think that it's a fairly decent plan B/initial job. He told us that once people join Leonardo they often stay there for their whole working lives and I believe it. I'm passionate about computing science also and I think it be a decent job to write code that eventually gets put in a fighter jet :ok:

​​​​​​​electrician or plumber
As I mentioned above I'm considering doing a degree possibly in electrical engineering, I've looked at electrician/tradesman as a career option also. However I'm keeping in mind that at least for the first few years any jobs I invest my time in are mostly a means to an end to fund my training. It's definitely food for thought.

[VariablePitchP]

Hello lads, I'm a year or two away from leaving secondary school here in the UK and to be honest I've become infatuated with aviation over the past few years. I would love nothing more than to spend my working hours in a cockpit as opposed to the traditional 9-5 and all the pilots I've spoken to agree wholeheartedly that it is one of the best jobs that one could possibly work. The way I see it integrated is prohibitively expensive while modular is more "grindy" and allows your experience to build up (which should be better for jobseeking right?!). A few questions:

Would you recommend going to uni, getting a secure and well-paying job and saving for a few years then starting training or going to uni and taking out a loan straight off the bat? I appreciate that financial stability may be something that employers are looking for in a candidate, and it would also allow me to get some real experience of industry before starting pilot training. I was considering going to uni for software engineering/computing science, civil engineering, electrical engineering or even aerospace engineering and getting a job in those fields. (I would also hate the idea of an outstanding loan hovering above my head while I complete my studies).
Having got your ATPL, is finding a job difficult? I have heard (or read rather) horror stories of people floating about for years after securing their license looking for a job only to fly bizjets in the end.
Would UK airlines such as easyjet ever even consider hiring modular graduates or do they hire exclusively from their cadet programs? (Again the cost + high risk + low experience/occupational mobility) makes this route very very unattractive for me.

Thanks in advance.


Unfortunately the decision is often out of your hands. You talk about ‘getting a loan’. Bluntly, do your parents have a spare £100K in the bank, or are willing to remortgage the home to get access to the £100K?

If not, you’re going modular and your training will progress at the speed of cash if you wish to do it straight out of uni, or you’ll be saving for a long time to attempt the integrated route. If it were me in that case, Modular alongside work 100% of the time.

Integrated schools are very good at advertising, having been on this site I guarantee your instagram and Facebook feeds will be littered with adverts from CAE, L3 etc with models in their gleaming white Pilot shirts with gold braid up to their eyeballs. It’s all spin. Finish the training and all that matters is that piece of paper.

Keep at it, it’s the best job in the world. Do uni though, best three years of your life, the life experiences will be incredibly useful, not just for the training, but your life generally.

[alexeyAP]

VariablePitchP,
do your parents have a spare £100K in the bank, or are willing to remortgage the home to get access to the £100K
Frankly no, and nor would I want to put the financial strain on my family to advance my own career interests.

If it were me in that case, Modular alongside work 100% of the time.
Is there a disadvantage to working, saving on the side, then doing modular full time? The way I see it I would rather be devoted to one thing at a time (plus the ~4.5% interest is nice too :ok:)

​​​​​​​Integrated schools are very good at advertising, having been on this site I guarantee your instagram and Facebook feeds will be littered with adverts from CAE, L3 etc with models in their gleaming white Pilot shirts with good braid up to their eyeballs. It’s all spin. Finish the training and all that matters is that piece of paper.
Unfortunately you're right, all it took was one search for "integrated vs modular" and suddenly I'm up to my neck in adverts that look like something you could find in an episode of Mr Bean. Especially nowadays with many ATOs having good links to the airlines (see ManFlex above) is there any advantage whatsoever to doing it integrated? Genuinely interested as for 2x the price it doesn't seem like a lot of bang for the buck.

​​​​​​​Do uni though, best three years of your life, the life experiences will be incredibly useful, not just for the training, but your life generally.
That's the plan. Even better, uni's free in Scotland, so no debt as far as that's concerned. As I mentioned in a reply above (if it went through) there's also the university air squadrons which I think are good aviation experience while studying.

Cheers for the help, means a lot.

[Peter Ahonsi]

I recommend going to university, if you can study a degree which doesn’t relate to aviation directly. But ensure you at least have some interest in it. Some would argue university is a waste of money and do a trade job, however I think it gives you more options job wise personally.

I recommend Modular ( pay as you go) for each rating. Get your class 1 medical first before paying for any training. NEVER pay large amounts upfront for training.

I personally did a MSc in Building Surveying and i am currently working as a Project Manager in construction to help fund my training. I also work two delivery jobs on the side. I got my ppl via the modular route and i am hour building on the weekends.

It is a long hard road and sometimes you question yourself, however keep at it and just remember others have been in your position who went modular and made the dream come true. It might take several years however patience and perseverance is key.

Safe skies Captain.

[VariablePitchP]

VariablePitchP,

Frankly no, and nor would I want to put the financial strain on my family to advance my own career interests.


Is there a disadvantage to working, saving on the side, then doing modular full time? The way I see it I would rather be devoted to one thing at a time (plus the ~4.5% interest is nice too :ok:)


Unfortunately you're right, all it took was one search for "integrated vs modular" and suddenly I'm up to my neck in adverts that look like something you could in an episode of Mr Bean. Especially nowadays with many ATOs having good links to the airlines (see ManFlex above) is there any advantage whatsoever to doing it integrated? Genuinely interested as for 2x the price it doesn't seem like a lot of bang for the buck.


That's the plan. Even better, uni's free in Scotland, so no debt as far as that's concerned. As I mentioned in a reply above (if it went through) there's also the university air squadrons which I think are good aviation experience while studying.

Cheers for the help, means a lot.

You’re welcome! Scottish uni? Then it’s an absolute no brainer if it’s free.

Just to make it absolutely clear, without backing from your parents, you’re not getting a loan. You might be able to borrow £5K but you haven’t got any security so they won’t lend you the money. Your only options are pay as you go, or save up and do it all. The latter is just adding 12 to 18 months and giving life more opportunities to get in the way and derail you.

Will it be a pretty grim 3 to 4 years of working full time whilst living at home / in a box flat on beans and rice whilst you spend every penny on training? Yes. Will it be worth it when you’re sat flying an airliner a decade from now, debt free? Also yes.

[Beaker_]

Beaker,
Do you think something like airport ops or aerospace engineering is as unstable as the piloting market?

I forgot to mention when I suggested a trade is when considering a backup career, it's good to have something you can stop and start without it looking too bad on your CV. If you're a self-employed tradesman, you don't need to really worry about what a recruiter is going to think. I think you'd have no shortage of work if you were in a "in demand" trade, especially if you have mates in the business as they'll always be looking for good subcontractors.

IT can be a good field where plenty of companies will recruit people on 6-12 month contracts just to get a job done so perhaps worth considering. It's a very varied field though, so certainly worth researching to see which skill sets favour the contractors lifestyle.

Of course all of the above mentioned positions would probably need you to brush up on latest developments, regulations etc. before you pick up your tools after you've had a long break.

Definitely double-check for yourself against what I've suggested. These things are mostly based on what I've seen and there may be things I'm wrong about it haven't considered, but in my opinion could be a sensible route to go down.

Also, just to echo what has already been said. Don't take out loans for this. Do your PPL and some hour building alongside full-time work. It's an enjoyable hobby in itself and no need to rush it. When you come to the ground school and professional part of your training, you can decide whether to do this alongside your job (possibly part-time) or take some time off and do those bits as quickly as possible. If you live frugally and earn yourself a reasonable amount, it should certainly be possible. If you work in a trade self-employed, you might be able to consider making your own hours up. i.e. Work more in the winter to maximize your earnings and take more days off in the summer to get more flying done!

You sound like a sensible guy who's willing to listen to advice so I wish you the best of luck.

[rudestuff]

It's always better to have a degree than not. But remember that a degree takes 3 years. In that same time period you could have a fATPL. Getting the first job is probably the hardest of all and a lot of it is down to having the good fortune to finish at the right time.

Most people become a pilot, then choose their company (or have the choice made for them). But there is another option: Play the long game by joining an airline then becoming a pilot. Take a ground role preferably in flight ops then work and save while building hours. If you live at home and maybe take a second job you could save half the money (£25k ish) in 2 years and easily borrow the other half. When they start hiring cadets if you've kept your nose clean you'll be a shoe-in for an assessment.
Regarding loans - it definitely IS better to borrow rather than save as long as you can comfortably afford the repayments. It gets you where you want to be quicker. If you don't take the loan and instead save up - you could potentially shorten your flying career by 2 years. What does a senior Captain/TRI/TRE make in 2 years?

[hobbit1983]

Hello lads
Try again.
all the pilots I've spoken to agree wholeheartedly that it is one of the best jobs that one could possibly work.
Job, yes. Mostly. The career, however, is terrible. Be prepared to be made redundant on more than one occasion.
Would you recommend going to uni, getting a secure and well-paying job and saving for a few years then starting training or going to uni and taking out a loan straight off the bat?
If you really, really, want to fly for a job then you do not need a degree. You may be well advised to have a backup career/means of income, but this does not necessarily mean you need a degree to do so.
I appreciate that financial stability may be something that employers are looking for in a candidate
Several employers are probably looking for your ability to pay for a type rating.
it would also allow me to get some real experience of industry before starting pilot training
A degree will not (mostly). It is an academic qualification; the real world is very different.
I was considering going to uni for software engineering/computing science, civil engineering, electrical engineering or even aerospace engineering and getting a job in those fields.
As far as I know (not qualified in any of those fields, but I know people who are), software/computer engineering is a good bet these days, aerospace engineering is probably a harder career.
(I would also hate the idea of an outstanding loan hovering above my head while I complete my studies).
Unless you are lucky enough to be able to pay for £100k of pilot training outright, then you are going to hate pilot training...and getting a loan for that.
Having got your ATPL, is finding a job difficult?
Yes. And you won't get an ATPL until you've done a good amount of flying for an operator. You get a CPL. Also known anecdotally as a 'frozen' ATPL, but this is not an official term.
I have heard (or read rather) horror stories of people floating about for years after securing their license looking for a job only to fly bizjets in the end.
And just WTF is so bad about flying bizjets for a living, young wannabe?
Would UK airlines such as easyjet ever even consider hiring modular graduates or do they hire exclusively from their cadet programs?
As far as I know, cadet programs only. This may have changed.
(Again the cost + high risk + low experience/occupational mobility) makes this route very very unattractive for me.
Welcome to aviation. This will be true no matter what you fly.

[hobbit1983]

Frankly no, and nor would I want to put the financial strain on my family to advance my own career interests.
You may have to. You won't be able to get a loan for the entire training costs. Your options are (as far as I can tell):

save up and fund £100k

get your parents to remortgage

The military is both competitive and also will probably be able to tell you are after a flying qualification. It will also take a decade or more. There are very few, if any, full scholarships in 2023 or the foreseeable future. Over the past twenty years, I have encountered/can think of precisely three. One was for one person a year, one was for just one person (and was an in-house/not advertised deal) and the other was by EasyJet; but only for 6 female pilots. As far as I know, none are still avalialbe.
Is there a disadvantage to working, saving on the side, then doing modular full time? The way I see it I would rather be devoted to one thing at a time (plus the ~4.5% interest is nice too )
Yes. It will take you a very long time and you will probably struggle financially. It's also a slightly crazy financial decision. If you had a spare £100k, it is a risky investment to invest in flying training. You have absolutely no guarantee of a job at the end of it. Be warned.
is there any advantage whatsoever to doing it integrated? Genuinely interested as for 2x the price it doesn't seem like a lot of bang for the buck.
You traditionally have access to more employment opportunities with airlines, some exclusively. Read around on this forum for more info. There's plenty of it.

[alexeyAP]

Peter,
a degree which doesn’t relate to aviation directly
Is there any downside to completing, say, a BEng in aerospace in uni as opposed to a completely different field? I am currently very lucky to have my options open to most engineering fields and I'm still considering something aviation related. Thanks for your insight, best of luck to you in your aviation journey.


VariablePitchP,
Then it’s an absolute no brainer if it’s free.
Absolutely, uni provides so many opportunities not only academically but also in aviation that it's hard to resist.
Just to make it absolutely clear, without backing from your parents, you’re not getting a loan
I think that if I am smart with my money and work a relatively lucrative job then a loan will not be required. As I said before I absolutely hate the idea of having to repay a loan on top of the pressure to do well in the exams so it would probably for the best if I saved then paid.
Will it be a pretty grim 3 to 4 years of working full time whilst living at home / in a box flat on beans and rice whilst you spend every penny on training? Yes. Will it be worth it when you’re sat flying an airliner a decade from now, debt free? Also yes.
That's the dream :ok:. All I can do is have faith that my hard work will pay off.


Beaker,
If you're a self-employed tradesman, you don't need to really worry about what a recruiter is going to think. I think you'd have no shortage of work if you were in a "in demand" trade, especially if you have mates in the business as they'll always be looking for good subcontractors.
That's fair enough although good money will obviously be important when I come to looking for different fields to get into. I'll research trades more though.
Don't take out loans for this. Do your PPL and some hour building alongside full-time work. It's an enjoyable hobby in itself and no need to rush it.
Absolutely, I think it will probably be better for my motivation if I treat it like an interest rather than a career, at least for the PPL part.
​​​​​​​You sound like a sensible guy who's willing to listen to advice so I wish you the best of luck.
Cheers, fingers crossed the airlines think so too :ok:


rudestuff,
​​​​​​​you could save half the money (£25k ish) in 2 years and easily borrow the other half
I think I would struggle to borrow 25k without collateral and would probably struggle even more to pay it off in the event that I cannot secure a job after training. Working in flight ops is definitely a shout though, I'll look into that.
​​​​​​​you could potentially shorten your flying career by 2 years
At this point, going to uni, getting a 'real' job, saving, and training, I'll probably find myself in the right-hand seat of an airliner no sooner than 30 so 2 years is no biggie especially if that means having 0 debt at the end of it.
Thanks for the advice.


hobbit,
​​​​​​​Several employers are probably looking for your ability to pay for a type rating.
Are you sure? The easyjet pilots (both FOs and Capt. when I've had the chance) that I've spoken to tell me that typically easyjet will type rate them as well. Then again almost all of them joined as integrated cadets so I could be wrong.
​​​​​​​A degree will not (mostly). It is an academic qualification; the real world is very different.
I think you misunderstood; after I get a degree I can go and find a job related to that degree and build experience in the industry/make connections where I can.
​​​​​​​You may be well advised to have a backup career/means of income
My plan is to get a degree in possibly an engineering field or go to college as a tradesman then use that career to save money and do flight training on the side or save my 50-60k and do the modular in one go.
​​​​​​​software/computer engineering
From what I've read, sysadmins for large companies get paid obscene amounts of money just because they handle sensitive data for their employers. Might be worth looking into.
​​​​​​​Unless you are lucky enough to be able to pay for £100k of pilot training outright
Well the plan is to pay for 50k of it outright through savings, yes.
Thanks for the reply anyhow.
​​​​​​​

[happyjack]

[QUOTE]I have heard (or read rather) horror stories of people floating about for years after securing their license looking for a job only to fly bizjets in the end./QUOTE]

WOW! That is a statement and a half!

I worked as an "only Bizjet pilot" for many years until I finally, after breaking the mould to get there, broke into Airline flying. 4 years and 3 airlines later I was sick of being abused, utterly bored at work flying back and forth to the same boring easy places and underpaid so went back to being "only a Bizjet pilot". 'Now retired but have experiences and seen places no airline pilot would ever get near to dreaming of, and earning more doing it.' Meeting every famous name you can think of and having NO destination I can think of missing from my wanabees. But you think Ryanair would be more desirable? Think again man!

[CaptSackJarrow]

3.) Do airlines like easyJet hire exclusively from their integrated partner schools?

No. Again, I am studying full time ‘combined modular’ at a well known ATO whose head of recruitment previously sent modular cadets to airlines like easyJet from a previous ATO and is continuing this today at our ATO. Airlines couldn’t care less what training route you took- so long as A.) your ATPL average is good (BA have quoted 85% average with max 1 retake) and B.) you pass your CPL/IR first series (preferably first time).

Drop me a PM if you have any questions :)

Great summary, would just like to add the conversation I've had with head of departments at EasyJet is that they only recruit through MPL / CAE / L3, not necessarily just integrated but you need them on your training records. How true this may be is open to interpretation, but it was from a source directly related to EasyJet recruitment.

[alexeyAP]

CaptSackJarrow,
MPL / CAE / L3
By 'MPL' do you mean that you need to specifically train at a flight school which is tied to Easyjet (therefore you can only fly for them once you complete training)? I've looked at both CAE and L3 and while it does seem very commercial and robotic I'm sure it has its upsides. Most of the Easyjet pilots I've talked to have mentioned going to L3 on an integrated course. Thanks for your help.

[alexeyAP]

happyjack, apologies if I caused offense but the 'horror' of those situations is that one can be in limbo for years after completing training, and many people give up and settle for something lesser different, even if it is still flying. I hope you'll excuse my cheek before but my end goal (as was yours at one point it seems) is to go and fly for the airlines one day. Safe travels.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

happyjack, apologies if I caused offense but the 'horror' of those situations is that one can be in limbo for years after completing training, and many people give up and settle for something lesser, even if it is still flying. I hope you'll excuse my cheek before but my end goal (as was yours at one point it seems) is to go and fly for the airlines one day. Safe travels.

Flying a Bizjet or Cargo or a Twin Otter around the Orkneys is often, believe it or not, a choice rather than a “lesser” job. Professional aviation is a very mixed career - a colleague of mine gave up a jet command at a good airline to go fly a turboprop in a very challenging environment, his comment being that he was absolutely fed up to the back teeth of sticking the autopilot in at 1000 feet, flying to Tenerife and clicking it out. Might not seem like it to you, but it’s a job, and at times a very brutal one. Covid shows you how crew can be treated when times are tough…

I fly for a major airline, one of my friends flies a Gulfstream for a private owner. He has far more time off down route than I do, far nicer destinations and the jet’s owner has on occasion paid for a ticket for his wife to join him in sunny climes. I wouldn’t want to do his job, there’s too much standby and he has to do a lot more work on the planning side than I would, it’s a lot more independent and less “shut the flight deck door and go home” than I like. Equally he would feel completely stifled in the environment I operate in, and wouldn’t get on at all with a very uniform corporate culture that I like very much as it provides me with a good work/life balance.

The best job is the one you want - and we all want different things. Flying is flying, there is nothing special about flying for an airline; many would argue quite the opposite in fact!

Edit: the reason people are being prickly is that, without any professional aviation experience, you are calling certain jobs “lesser”. That, for me at least, includes colleagues who have fought hard for an airline job, been made redundant or even decided that it is not for them, and taken to flying air ambulance flights or bizjets, are “lesser” pilots and to be looked down upon from the lofty heights of a 737-800 on its way to Faro, arguably the most vanilla job of all. The man whose job I, personally, envy most has never flown anything bigger than an Aztec (and believe it or not that’s all he ever wanted to do).

[alexeyAP]

Speedtrimfail, again I apologise, I can see how it comes across as arrogant because obviously I have next to no flying experience of my own. I'll keep my options open for corporate flying though, it does seem like a bit more fun than the airlines. Take care.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

Speedtrimfail, again I apologise, I can see how it comes across as arrogant because obviously I have next to no flying experience of my own. I'll keep my options open for corporate flying though, it does seem like a bit more fun than the airlines. Take care.

No worries, good luck with it all. Let us know how you get on, never pass up an opportunity to network or get to know people.

[rudestuff]

I think I would struggle to borrow 25k without collateral and would probably struggle even more to pay it off in the event that I cannot secure a job after training. Working in flight ops is definitely a shout though, I'll look into that.

At this point, going to uni, getting a 'real' job, saving, and training, I'll probably find myself in the right-hand seat of an airliner no sooner than 30 so 2 years is no biggie especially if that means having 0 debt at the end of it.
Thanks for the advice.
I'm struggling to understand your motivation to be honest. You say you're a year or two away from finishing secondary school, which would make you 16. You say you want to be a pilot but for some strange reason not until after you're 30. Even starting until 18 you could be applying for airline jobs aged 21 if you do thingsin the right order. If Pilot is actually your stated career goal, then every other job only exists to support that goal. Every year you delay will cost you £250,000 at a minimum (based on your end of career salary)
£25,000 is nothing in comparison. You're clearly not understanding my suggestion, so I'll try to elaborate: The most important attribute a pilot can have is perseverance. If you don't have a long term plan and stick to it you will fail. It's no different in principle from becoming a body builder or a marathon runner. My advice to my younger self is this: Get a Mon-Fri job, the higher paying the better, but not one that needs excessive training or qualifications. If it's in an airline or on an airfield so much the better. Then get a weekend job and/or deliver pizza in the evenings. Live with your parents and save 90% of what you make. Get a mobile contact and a few credit cards. Spend and pay them back in full. Take out a loan for £500 and pay it back over 6 months. Then get another loan for £1000 and do the same. One you've got £10,000 you can go somewhere sunny for a 4 week PPL (or 2 blocks of 2 weeks) After 2 years you'll have a PPL, £15,000 and a great credit record. And trust me, when it comes to borrowing money, you will have no problems once you understand what a 'credit search window' is! As for paying it off - that's no different from saving up. Plus you'll have 2 jobs and no rent. You have to want it.
If you eat, sleep and breathe in order to facilitate becoming a pilot then you'll be in the RHS in 3 years. Or you can just dream.

[alexeyAP]

I'm struggling to understand your motivation to be honest. You say you're a year or two away from finishing secondary school, which would make you 16. You say you want to be a pilot but for some strange reason not until after you're 30. Even starting until 18 you could be applying for airline jobs aged 21 if you do thingsin the right order. If Pilot is actually your stated career goal, then every other job only exists to support that goal. Every year you delay will cost you £250,000 at a minimum (based on your end of career salary)
£25,000 is nothing in comparison. You're clearly not understanding my suggestion, so I'll try to elaborate: The most important attribute a pilot can have is perseverance. If you don't have a long term plan and stick to it you will fail. It's no different in principle from becoming a body builder or a marathon runner. My advice to my younger self is this: Get a Mon-Fri job, the higher paying the better, but not one that needs excessive training or qualifications. If it's in an airline or on an airfield so much the better. Then get a weekend job and/or deliver pizza in the evenings. Live with your parents and save 90% of what you make. Get a mobile contact and a few credit cards. Spend and pay them back in full. Take out a loan for £500 and pay it back over 6 months. Then get another loan for £1000 and do the same. One you've got £10,000 you can go somewhere sunny for a 4 week PPL (or 2 blocks of 2 weeks) After 2 years you'll have a PPL, £15,000 and a great credit record. And trust me, when it comes to borrowing money, you will have no problems once you understand what a 'credit search window' is! As for paying it off - that's no different from saving up. Plus you'll have 2 jobs and no rent. You have to want it.
If you eat, sleep and breathe in order to facilitate becoming a pilot then you'll be in the RHS in 3 years. Or you can just dream.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. When I finish school I will be 17 and then I will pursue higher education in uni in something non-aviation related so I can have a secure stable source of income to fund my training and as a plan B if aviation doesn't work out. I am also committed to doing this with as little debt as possible simply because if I finish my ATPLs with 25k of loans (plus interest!) and cannot find a good paying job then I will not be able to pay it back (even if I do it will be a setback when it comes to mortgaging a property as I have additional loan repayments to make). Doing some quick maths:

4 years (if I'm doing a M) of uni brings me to 21 at graduation.
Best-case scenario of a £50k p.a. job - let's say £45k after tax - I can live 'frugally' on £25k and invest/save the £20k left over. (£50k per annum if I work 2 jobs doesn't seem unreasonable depending on the field)
20k for 3 years (24-25 years old now) makes 60k on the upper end of a modular course (which let's face it will probably be on the lower end when I start training)
Train modularly non-stop for 1.5 years (which brings me to 26-27)
Fly for regionals/sightseeing tours/skydiving/banner towing/literally whatever for 2 or 3 years then graduate to an Airbus.

So as you can see my long-term plan (which you heavily suggested I stick to) will see me in the RHS of a Bus at best case maybe at 27 if I can get an airline job right after finishing training (not impossible if I pick my flight school right) and maybe 35 if it drags on. However your suggestion for me is to leave school, take out bigger and bigger loans to up my credit score until I can pay for a PPL and then...what? As mentioned above, no matter how well I do in my ATPL exams, airlines will be looking for real-world experience (which is something that uni and a good job can get me). You make it seem like for some strange and unknown reason I'm intentionally putting off being a pilot until my middle years which is just untrue, every step in the plan above is one step closer to a seat in the cockpit. As I said already my family is not all that well endowed and there is absolutely no way I could have my mum sponsor me through modular right after I leave school (especially because she's just a few years away from repaying the mortgage and I'm not about to ask her to put the house down to fund me). And to add, if I had put in my top post that I plan to become a fully fledged pilot at 20 years old, I guarantee you that you would have tsked and thought "wow, that boy is naive". Motivation and perseverance are important but so is thinking realistically.

[hobbit1983]

hobbit,
Quote:
Several employers are probably looking for your ability to pay for a type rating.
Are you sure? The easyjet pilots (both FOs and Capt. when I've had the chance) that I've spoken to tell me that typically easyjet will type rate them as well. Then again almost all of them joined as integrated cadets so I could be wrong.

Yes. easyJet is but one company. There are many, many others that have required prospective employees to self-sponsor the TR; this comes and goes in almost direct correlation to the supply and demand of qualified pilots. Hopefully you will find an employer (in 3-4 years) offering to bond you.

Quote:
A degree will not (mostly). It is an academic qualification; the real world is very different.
I think you misunderstood; after I get a degree I can go and find a job related to that degree and build experience in the industry/make connections where I can.

Good plan.

Quote:
You may be well advised to have a backup career/means of income
My plan is to get a degree in possibly an engineering field or go to college as a tradesman then use that career to save money and do flight training on the side or save my 50-60k and do the modular in one go.
​​​​​​​
That's a plan. Bear in mind that this will take years. If you want to save £60k, for example, and you can save or spend £500 per month on top of everything else (this may be optimistic), then that's £6000 per year. At that rate, it will take you ten years to save up or afford your flight training.

Quote:
​​​​​​​software/computer engineering
From what I've read, sysadmins for large companies get paid obscene amounts of money just because they handle sensitive data for their employers. Might be worth looking into.
​​​​​​​
Yes, it might. I don't know that industry.

Quote:
​​​​​​​Unless you are lucky enough to be able to pay for £100k of pilot training outright
Well the plan is to pay for 50k of it outright through savings, yes.
​​​​​​​
I think you will end up spending more than £50k; over the last few years, the realistic cost of a PPL (for example) has gone from something like £8k to £15k. Your mileage may vary.
​​​​​​​
To echo other comments on this thread:

There is a world of commercial flying outside of the airline industry. This is not a bad thing. Some of the most interesting jobs can be found in:

flight instruction
aerial survey
paradropping
air ambulance (aeroplanes, not helicopters)
cargo
VVIP business jets
banner towing


Some are well paid, others are not (flight instructors, for example, often earn less than minimum wage). Some can be a lot of fun. Some may be your only employment option on more than one occasion; especially since Brexit removed a number of opportunities for those who didn't add an European license. Don't make the mistake of assuming they are somehow a 'lesser' job. I have flown with more than one airline pilot who simply could not cope with the demands of GA (General Aviation; basically a term for the above list) flying, either from a piloting perspective (i.e. one guy just couldn't hand fly the aircraft, without an autopilot) or operational (such as dealing with the very different way that the ragged end of GA operates compared to the airlines; you end up having to be your own flight planning department, for example).

You may find you end up doing one of these as your first flying job. A surprising percentage of newly qualified CPLs have done an FI rating to do so. I strongly suggest that you don't discount them as an option, and I also suggest that you do not fall prey to SJS (Shiny Jet Syndrome: being desperate to fly the newest Boeing/Airbus to the exclusion of all else).

If the tone and content of my posts haven't made it clear: you appear to be very enthusiastic about entering a very volatile industry that comes with no guarantees. That's fine. But please do be aware, it can be utterly brutal. Do not bet the farm; do not end up flying for free either, please...(this used to happen recently. It might rear it's ugly head again). I recommend you factor in some cynicism to your calculations.(especially with regard to income and flight training costs).

Hobbit
(FI, former bizjet captain, former air ambulance pilot/paradrop pilot/aerial survey, etc etc etc)
​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

[hobbit1983]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. When I finish school I will be 17 and then I will pursue higher education in uni in something non-aviation related so I can have a secure stable source of income to fund my training and as a plan B if aviation doesn't work out. I am also committed to doing this with as little debt as possible simply because if I finish my ATPLs with 25k of loans (plus interest!) and cannot find a good paying job then I will not be able to pay it back (even if I do it will be a setback when it comes to mortgaging a property as I have additional loan repayments to make). Doing some quick maths:
4 years (if I'm doing a M) of uni brings me to 21 at graduation.
Best-case scenario of a £50k p.a. job - let's say £45k after tax - I can live 'frugally' on £25k and invest/save the £20k left over. (£50k per annum if I work 2 jobs doesn't seem unreasonable depending on the field)
20k for 3 years (24-25 years old now) makes 60k on the upper end of a modular course (which let's face it will probably be on the lower end when I start training)
Train modularly non-stop for 1.5 years (which brings me to 26-27)
Fly for regionals/sightseeing tours/skydiving/banner towing/literally whatever for 2 or 3 years then graduate to an Airbus.

50k p.a. (at 21 years?) is £ 34,465.92 after tax, if you're resident in Scotland and with a Scottish student loan. https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php

Working two jobs I do not think will bring you £50k.

ATPLs will certainly cost more than £25k in loans; you're probably looking at £100-80k.

I suggest revising your plan: I agree with most of it. But I don't think the maths adds up.

So as you can see my long-term plan (which you heavily suggested I stick to) will see me in the RHS of a Bus at best case maybe at 27 if I can get an airline job right after finishing training (not impossible if I pick my flight school right) and maybe 35 if it drags on. However your suggestion for me is to leave school, take out bigger and bigger loans to up my credit score until I can pay for a PPL and then...what? As mentioned above, no matter how well I do in my ATPL exams, airlines will be looking for real-world experience (which is something that uni and a good job can get me). You make it seem like for some strange and unknown reason I'm intentionally putting off being a pilot until my middle years which is just untrue, every step in the plan above is one step closer to a seat in the cockpit. As I said already my family is not all that well endowed and there is absolutely no way I could have my mum sponsor me through modular right after I leave school (especially because she's just a few years away from repaying the mortgage and I'm not about to ask her to put the house down to fund me). And to add, if I had put in my top post that I plan to become a fully fledged pilot at 20 years old, I guarantee you that you would have tsked and thought "wow, that boy is naive". Motivation and perseverance are important but so is thinking realistically.

Airlines will 100% not be looking for real-world experience outside of flying (that you get from uni and a good job). They are looking for:

-has a CPL
-has the rating they need already, or is willing to self-sponsor a TR
-has hours (more = better) or jet experience
-(for some operators) been to the 'right' integrated school
-can pass an interview, group exercises, etc
-is likely to work well with other pilots

If I were you, I would follow the same broad plan, but find a way to get other people to pay for your training (not your parents) or reduce your costs considerably. The only immediate way to do that (that I can think of) is to get a PPL following the plan you've laid out. Then build hours as an FI or paradropping (glider tugging?) and then save up for the next bit (CPL, IR) etc.

The only problem with that is, it will take awhile, you will really have to work to find those opportunities, and you seem fixed on flying airlines, which may mean you won't want/be able to sustain the motivation to go fly light aircraft for years first.

[alexeyAP]

50k p.a. (at 21 years?) is £ 34,465.92 after tax, if you're resident in Scotland and with a Scottish student loan. https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php

Working two jobs I do not think will bring you £50k.

ATPLs will certainly cost more than £25k in loans; you're probably looking at £100-80k.

I suggest revising your plan: I agree with most of it. But I don't think the maths adds up.



Airlines will 100% not be looking for real-world experience outside of flying (that you get from uni and a good job). They are looking for:

-has a CPL
-has the rating they need already, or is willing to self-sponsor a TR
-has hours (more = better) or jet experience
-(for some operators) been to the 'right' integrated school
-can pass an interview, group exercises, etc
-is likely to work well with other pilots

If I were you, I would follow the same broad plan, but find a way to get other people to pay for your training (not your parents) or reduce your costs considerably. The only immediate way to do that (that I can think of) is to get a PPL following the plan you've laid out. Then build hours as an FI or paradropping (glider tugging?) and then save up for the next bit (CPL, IR) etc.

The only problem with that is, it will take awhile, you will really have to work to find those opportunities, and you seem fixed on flying airlines, which may mean you won't want/be able to sustain the motivation to go fly light aircraft for years first.
Thanks for your replies, it's been truly helpful.
Wow, £15k of £50k is taxed? Maybe I should start being more cynical, that's criminal in my eyes :ooh:
Are you sure about ATPL being 100k in loans? Bristol groundschool has ATPL(a) courses at £3k and while I appreciate that BGS is only the theory part I've mostly heard £50-60k quoted as a price for the modular.
Flying a/c to build hours through glider tugging (bit of a rare breed here in the UK, we mostly use winch launch) and skydiving etc. is definitely a good suggestion.
I know I seem right now very over optimistic about working for the airlines and completely ignorant of the work that I'll have to put in before getting there, but I truly believe I have the motivation to do as you suggest and fly GA for a few years. Any aviation is still aviation in my eyes, that will never change :ok:
I've also been looking into opportunities at the RAF. I spoke to a recruiter about getting in as a pilot and after he'd finished chuckling he told me that out of 35k applicants last year only 35 were selected to go through pilot training, keep in mind only a small portion will be flying fastjets. It's really really competitive. I'm in the air cadets though, we go to the glider field every few months and do 2 launches at a time. Lots of fun and definitely a good starting point to progress into aviation further.
Thanks for the help hobbit, you've been very kind. Take care.

[rudestuff]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. When I finish school I will be 17 and then I will pursue higher education in uni in something non-aviation related so I can have a secure stable source of income to fund my training and as a plan B if aviation doesn't work out. I am also committed to doing this with as little debt as possible simply because if I finish my ATPLs with 25k of loans (plus interest!) and cannot find a good paying job then I will not be able to pay it back (even if I do it will be a setback when it comes to mortgaging a property as I have additional loan repayments to make). Doing some quick maths:

4 years (if I'm doing a M) of uni brings me to 21 at graduation.
Best-case scenario of a £50k p.a. job - let's say £45k after tax - I can live 'frugally' on £25k and invest/save the £20k left over. (£50k per annum if I work 2 jobs doesn't seem unreasonable depending on the field)
20k for 3 years (24-25 years old now) makes 60k on the upper end of a modular course (which let's face it will probably be on the lower end when I start training)
Train modularly non-stop for 1.5 years (which brings me to 26-27)
Fly for regionals/sightseeing tours/skydiving/banner towing/literally whatever for 2 or 3 years then graduate to an Airbus.

So as you can see my long-term plan (which you heavily suggested I stick to) will see me in the RHS of a Bus at best case maybe at 27 if I can get an airline job right after finishing training (not impossible if I pick my flight school right) and maybe 35 if it drags on. However your suggestion for me is to leave school, take out bigger and bigger loans to up my credit score until I can pay for a PPL and then...what? As mentioned above, no matter how well I do in my ATPL exams, airlines will be looking for real-world experience (which is something that uni and a good job can get me). You make it seem like for some strange and unknown reason I'm intentionally putting off being a pilot until my middle years which is just untrue, every step in the plan above is one step closer to a seat in the cockpit. As I said already my family is not all that well endowed and there is absolutely no way I could have my mum sponsor me through modular right after I leave school (especially because she's just a few years away from repaying the mortgage and I'm not about to ask her to put the house down to fund me). And to add, if I had put in my top post that I plan to become a fully fledged pilot at 20 years old, I guarantee you that you would have tsked and thought "wow, that boy is naive". Motivation and perseverance are important but so is thinking realistically.
Sorry to bring some realism into it, but airlines don't require degrees, and they don't really care about real world experience, whatever that is. Unless that deal world experience is 500+ hours on a type they fly.
Now, if you want a masters degree, go for it. But in those 4 years you could realistically have a fATPL. There are a few points I made which I suspect you haven't understood fully - I don't want to sound like a patronising c**t, but I probably am so that's how it comes across. I'm not encouraging you to get into debt. You're a kid with no credit history. You're going to need a good one in life no matter what career you end up in. The way to get a credit history is to borrow and be seen to be paying it back. This advice goes for anyone: Get a phone contract and pay your bill every month - will you at least agree that you need one of those? Next take it a small loan of 500-1000 over a short period and paying all back. You'll pay maybe £50 in interest for a loan you didn't need, but you've now got a satisfied loan on your credit history. The more of those the better. Building a credit history takes time, so start asap. Get a credit card or two and keep the balance below 10% to get maximum points for utilisation. These are all practical things that will help you get a loan or mortgage later in life.
My suggestion is that you work like a bastard to save money. But there really is no point in saving it all up - because your goal should be to get into a flying job ASAP. Would you rather stay flying at 22 or 32? Be honest...
Dont worry what other people think - I would respect you more if you had said that you "want it all at age 20, oh and please give me advice to help me get there". We all have things we wish we had known or done differently.
A £25K loan from HSBC will cost you £335 a month. That's nothing for someone with 2 jobs and no outgoings.
Some people borrow ALL the money, some people save all the money - I'm suggesting 50/50 as a sensible and achievable compromise. This is the thing that you really
have to understand, and I'm not sure you do yet: People don't live forever, and Pilots have to retire at 65. That means you have a limited window to make money. A senior TRE might retire on £200k. If they had started their career ONE year earlier they would be £200k richer (less their wage before) - so let's be clear - you need to get your career started ASAP, and borrowing £25,000 while living at home and working 2 jobs is NOT a risky thing to do.
I'm not - as you interpreted it - encouraging you to take out loads of loans and get a PPL. In suggesting that you work hard, save up and along the way get a PPL, your ATPL exams and some hour building with that money. Then at some point borrow the remainder to accelerate your progress. Hour building can be done at weekends. The initial PPL can be done in the first year using your holiday allowance, your CBIR can be done in the second year in a similar fashion. Once you have you fATPL you're not going to magically get a job - so you can continue working just like before and use that money to pay back the loans early so the risk is negligible.
There's a reason people don't just save up their whole lives and buy a house when they're nearly retired.

Literally anyone who lives with their parents, has average intelligence and an EXCEPTIONAL work ethic can start with no money and be a commercial pilot in 3-4 years. Eat, sleep, work, fly. I've done my hardest to explain it to you but that's as much a I can do. I can't understand it for you 😜

[hobbit1983]

Thanks for your replies, it's been truly helpful.
Wow, £15k of £50k is taxed? Maybe I should start being more cynical, that's criminal in my eyes
Welcome to the world of work.

Are you sure about ATPL being 100k in loans? Bristol groundschool has ATPL(a) courses at £3k and while I appreciate that BGS is only the theory part I've mostly heard £50-60k quoted as a price for the modular.
No I'm not sure, but it won't be far off. Costs are increasing and unlikely to decrease. You might be able to do it for £50k, but I think you'll find that's a hopeful estimate. The theory is a tiny part of the cost.

Flying a/c to build hours through glider tugging (bit of a rare breed here in the UK, we mostly use winch launch) and skydiving etc. is definitely a good suggestion.
Yep. Hence the bit about it being hard to find. I was last a member of a gliding club in 2006 though, so you're quite right, things may have changed.

I know I seem right now very over optimistic about working for the airlines and completely ignorant of the work that I'll have to put in before getting there, but I truly believe I have the motivation to do as you suggest and fly GA for a few years. Any aviation is still aviation in my eyes, that will never change

I've also been looking into opportunities at the RAF. I spoke to a recruiter about getting in as a pilot and after he'd finished chuckling he told me that out of 35k applicants last year only 35 were selected to go through pilot training, keep in mind only a small portion will be flying fastjets. It's really really competitive. I'm in the air cadets though, we go to the glider field every few months and do 2 launches at a time. Lots of fun and definitely a good starting point to progress into aviation further.
Thanks for the help hobbit, you've been very kind. Take care.


No problem. Good luck.
​​​​​​​

[Beaker_]

Are you sure about ATPL being 100k in loans? Bristol groundschool has ATPL(a) courses at £3k and while I appreciate that BGS is only the theory part I've mostly heard £50-60k quoted as a price for the modular.


Your flying costs are probably do-able for 50-60k, but this can vary wildly depending on where you train and how you go about your hour building etc. Also, don't necessarily go for the cheapest school you find. Visit the different places you're thinking about training at and look at feedback on here to see where you feel most comfortable with.

Don't forget to budget for the extras though as these quickly add up to more than you may initially think!

Traveling to/from flight school.
Living costs for any full-time portions of training when you are not working.
PPL study material in addition to your ATPL's.
Accommodation and travel costs whilst away for exams.
Exam fees.
Medical and any referral fees if anything requires investigation.
Landing fees whilst hour building. Fly to new destinations to develop your skills. Burning holes in the sky in the local area is utterly pointless. A lot, if not most flight schools will include landing fees at home base.
Equipment: Headset, maps etc.
Issuing of your licence.


I've probably missed a few things, but you get the point! Costs will inevitably creep up year after year, so add a bit extra to account for this. The cost of avgas went up significantly for a few months last year which had an impact on things. When you're burning 25-35 litres of the stuff every hour, that quickly adds up.

I'm not trying to scare you, but it is very easy to forget about the things that'll drain your funds outside of fine in the air!

[alexeyAP]

Your flying costs are probably do-able for 50-60k, but this can vary wildly depending on where you train and how you go about your hour building etc. Also, don't necessarily go for the cheapest school you find. Visit the different places you're thinking about training at and look at feedback on here to see where you feel most comfortable with.

Don't forget to budget for the extras though as these quickly add up to more than you may initially think!

Traveling to/from flight school.
Living costs for any full-time portions of training when you are not working.
PPL study material in addition to your ATPL's.
Accommodation and travel costs whilst away for exams.
Exam fees.
Medical and any referral fees if anything requires investigation.
Landing fees whilst hour building. Fly to new destinations to develop your skills. Burning holes in the sky in the local area is utterly pointless. A lot, if not most flight schools will include landing fees at home base.
Equipment: Headset, maps etc.
Issuing of your licence.


I've probably missed a few things, but you get the point! Costs will inevitably creep up year after year, so add a bit extra to account for this. The cost of avgas went up significantly for a few months last year which had an impact on things. When you're burning 25-35 litres of the stuff every hour, that quickly adds up.

I'm not trying to scare you, but it is very easy to forget about the things that'll drain your funds outside of fine in the air!
Hello again,
I understand that the cost will probably vary by mileage and I also assume that the more you dish out to a flight school the higher the quality (perhaps of the education but I'm more referring to employment opportunities) so I will definitely look around before I start anywhere. Naturally there are going to be the "hidden" costs which I will definitely keep an eye out for :ok:
I've heard that hour building is a little cheaper in the States, do you know whether this happens to be the case? I would imagine that the 1k you fork over to Delta for the flight there and back (ironic isn't it!) and any bureaucratic stuff like visas would probably offset any financial benefit it may hold but as always I will dig deeper into it. Thanks again ;)

[rudestuff]

Firget price. The No 1 advantage of flying in the US is time efficiency, due to weather. You will lose so many training days in the UK due to weather. When the plane is yours the weather won't be good enough, and when it is everyone else wants to use the aircraft. The US is perfect for training quickly and hour building efficiently. When you are training you are learning a motor skill and the more frequently you train the more you will retain and the cheaper it will become.

[VariablePitchP]

Hello again,
I understand that the cost will probably vary by mileage and I also assume that the more you dish out to a flight school the higher the quality (perhaps of the education but I'm more referring to employment opportunities) so I will definitely look around before I start anywhere. Naturally there are going to be the "hidden" costs which I will definitely keep an eye out for :ok:
I've heard that hour building is a little cheaper in the States, do you know whether this happens to be the case? I would imagine that the 1k you fork over to Delta for the flight there and back (ironic isn't it!) and any bureaucratic stuff like visas would probably offset any financial benefit it may hold but as always I will dig deeper into it. Thanks again ;)

It’s not really been mentioned but are you also aware you may need 25/30K for a type rating when you finish training?

More and more places are bonding which is good but a Ryanair, for example, will expect you to write them a cheque for £25K to start the training with them.

Do please consider the advice of others, you really can be sat in the RHS of a jet by 25 latest if you go after it.

You said that you’d be taking home £40K in your plan and saving £20K of it. Afraid not, you’re going to be living at home and eating beans and rice for lunch, rice and beans for dinner. Spend more than £5K a year and you’re doing something wrong. Work 50 hours a week and you can save an absolute fortune if you absolutely insist on not having any debt.

Debt isn’t as cheap as it was with interest rates rising but if a £20K personal loan gets you working a year earlier then just take the loan and pay it back at the same rate you’d have been saving. Difference is you’re paying it back from an Airbus cockpit rather than selling insurance. Worst case you don’t get a job and just continue to pay it back, whilst living it home, spending nothing. You wouldn’t turn down a mortgage on principle and just rent for your entire life, this isn’t that different.

[happyjack]

I see politeness by the OP but also naivety by the bucketloads! You are young so it is perhaps to be expected?

You seem to think it is simply a matter of step 2 follows step 1 and bang, you are an airline pilot? It should be but it isn't. The most important factor in "making it" is who you know!

I think you should find a professional airline pilot locally and spend an hour or two buying him/her coffee and then rack brains as to what exactly was involved to get to their position? I think you would be very surprised at how much work it involved, a better understanding of the costs AND just how much luck? Many trainee pilots spend many tens of thousands of pounds, miss out of the luck so never get a career out of it.

The reality is it is a mental cutthroat business that takes no prisoners at all. Additionally if you get there be aware that although your mates would think highly of you, your employer would certainly hate you and would be constantly trying to undermine and reduce your renumeration and benefits as profits should go to shareholders not employees and especially not pilots!

One or two exceptions but that is generally what I found in a 33 year flying career. Good luck!

[alexeyAP]

Firget price. The No 1 advantage of flying in the US is time efficiency, due to weather. You will lose so many training days in the UK due to weather. When the plane is yours the weather won't be good enough, and when it is everyone else wants to use the aircraft. The US is perfect for training quickly and hour building efficiently. When you are training you are learning a motor skill and the more frequently you train the more you will retain and the cheaper it will become.
Understood. I've had a second thought about what you said re having good credit (I think I'll probably be having a lot of second thoughts in the near future) and you are probably completely right about that. My bank (bank of scotland) apparently offers personal unsecured loans of up to £25k with admittedly a pretty **** interest rate at the moment (5.9%) but not that it will matter in the end. I would assume that there is absolutely no way they would lend that amount of money to a person with 0 credit history so building credit score sounds like a good idea. My main concerns regarding this are:

What do I tell the bank the money is for? Debt consolidation?
I have read online that even if you repay your loans you are considered to have lower credit if you take out more than a couple of loans over a short space of time so I can't see this whole borrow-repay-borrow-repay schtick being good for credit in the long run.
My bank doesn't lend to those in full time education (i.e. university) so realistically I can't even start building credit until 20.
Do the credit rating companies care how long it takes to repay the loan? What if I take out a loan and repay it in full the next day?
I assume I could literally just pop the money into a current/instant access isa account (preferably with a different bank), top it up with the interest, and just leave it to pay off for however long it takes?

I will definitely have to reconsider how I approach funding though, in the event that I can secure 25k of bank money without any collateral (which to be fair doesn't seem impossible) I will still have to save/invest/beg my family/busk on the streets to get the other half. I will ponder some more and rethink my plan. Thanks rudestuff, great advice on this forum as usual, have a good one :ok:

[alexeyAP]

It’s not really been mentioned but are you also aware you may need 25/30K for a type rating when you finish training?

More and more places are bonding which is good but a Ryanair, for example, will expect you to write them a cheque for £25K to start the training with them.

Do please consider the advice of others, you really can be sat in the RHS of a jet by 25 latest if you go after it.

You said that you’d be taking home £40K in your plan and saving £20K of it. Afraid not, you’re going to be living at home and eating beans and rice for lunch, rice and beans for dinner. Spend more than £5K a year and you’re doing something wrong. Work 50 hours a week and you can save an absolute fortune if you absolutely insist on not having any debt.

Debt isn’t as cheap as it was with interest rates rising but if a £20K personal loan gets you working a year earlier then just take the loan and pay it back at the same rate you’d have been saving. Difference is you’re paying it back from an Airbus cockpit rather than selling insurance. Worst case you don’t get a job and just continue to pay it back, whilst living it home, spending nothing. You wouldn’t turn down a mortgage on principle and just rent for your entire life, this isn’t that different.
Hello again, read post above re the money (admittedly I was being a bit cheeky/optimistic thinking I could save £20k at that rate, although for the record I wouldn't mind eating rice and beans and living in a swamp for a couple of years if it gets me to flying :ok:). Taking out a loan will probably be mandatory for me at this rate, and I do fully agree with you that it will probably be cheaper (in terms of % salary) to pay it off from a cockpit than save it while flipping burgers. About bonding, the blokes I've spoken to in the flightdeck have told me (or implied) that Easyjet for instance will take a fresh pilot and type rate them on the Bus (whether this is bonded or it is perhaps included in the cost of the training program is something I don't know), I'm not sure how it is for other airlines. In any case I could just find an airline that will bond me for a bizjet or an ejet or a Dash 8 for instance (probably far easier said than done) then lay low for a few years, pay off the 25k from before and take out a new loan for the type rating. We'll see how it goes honestly, anything could happen in the future and laying out a basic plan and getting involved in aviation is the most I can do at this point.

[alexeyAP]

I see politeness by the OP but also naivety by the bucketloads! You are young so it is perhaps to be expected?

You seem to think it is simply a matter of step 2 follows step 1 and bang, you are an airline pilot? It should be but it isn't. The most important factor in "making it" is who you know!

I think you should find a professional airline pilot locally and spend an hour or two buying him/her coffee and then rack brains as to what exactly was involved to get to their position? I think you would be very surprised at how much work it involved, a better understanding of the costs AND just how much luck? Many trainee pilots spend many tens of thousands of pounds, miss out of the luck so never get a career out of it.

The reality is it is a mental cutthroat business that takes no prisoners at all. Additionally if you get there be aware that although your mates would think highly of you, your employer would certainly hate you and would be constantly trying to undermine and reduce your renumeration and benefits as profits should go to shareholders not employees and especially not pilots!

One or two exceptions but that is generally what I found in a 33 year flying career. Good luck!
If there's one thing I've learned from this thread is that I should always be more cynical than I need to be and then be 10x more cynical on top of that. I understand that this process isn't step by step - whisk the perseverance and motivation, combine with aptitude, bake at 180 for 30 minutes and you've got yourself a pilot. Hardly. But I want at least a rough sketch of my actions after I leave school - the more detailed the better.
About networking with pilots - I often stop by the cockpit and ask the FA (very politely) if I could chat with the pilots after I've been on a flight (usually with RYR or EZY). From what they've told me the FOs are all pretty much integrated (and you can tell by their age might I add) and the Capt. did it so long ago that things have changed significantly, as discussed there is no way I could afford integrated nor would I want to do it in the first place. I'll keep asking though, it's always great being in the cockpit and I can always learn something from the pilots.
I do remember one of my mum's students (uni lecturer) going to study aviation medicine or something like that and we did meet in a cafe to discuss how to be a pilot - but to be honest it's been so long ago that the only things I have left from the encounter is a stack of issues of Flyer magazine (which albeit makes for some good reading) and also the flight school she went to - Tayside (which entered administration just this year). One of my mum's work colleague's son's mates is apparently also pursuing aviation so I will try and get hold of his number and ask him about it. Honestly call me optimistic but I firmly believe that hard work beats luck at least 9 out of 10 times, if I put in the hard work (starting now) I could definitely make this dream a reality. Thanks for your insight, 33 of flying years is bloody impressive and I can just imagine how much more sound wisdom you have to offer :ok: I'll drop you a PM if I ever have any questions. Have a good one.

[Arena_33]

Hello again, read post above re the money (admittedly I was being a bit cheeky/optimistic thinking I could save £20k at that rate, although for the record I wouldn't mind eating rice and beans and living in a swamp for a couple of years if it gets me to flying :ok:). Taking out a loan will probably be mandatory for me at this rate, and I do fully agree with you that it will probably be cheaper (in terms of % salary) to pay it off from a cockpit than save it while flipping burgers. About bonding, the blokes I've spoken to in the flightdeck have told me (or implied) that Easyjet for instance will take a fresh pilot and type rate them on the Bus (whether this is bonded or it is perhaps included in the cost of the training program is something I don't know), I'm not sure how it is for other airlines. In any case I could just find an airline that will bond me for a bizjet or an ejet or a Dash 8 for instance (probably far easier said than done) then lay low for a few years, pay off the 25k from before and take out a new loan for the type rating. We'll see how it goes honestly, anything could happen in the future and laying out a basic plan and getting involved in aviation is the most I can do at this point.

It really is a case of beggars cant be choosers when you finish training with a fresh fATPL - finding an airline that would bond your type rating on anything is a god send. You've got a lot of learning to do, which will come with age, but once you finish your training it is a case of take anything you can get

[JEM60]

Slight thread drift, I wish all youngsters could write threads as lucidly and well composed as this young man. Impressed!.

[hobbit1983]

At the risk of saying the same things over again....

.... for the record I wouldn't mind eating rice and beans and living in a swamp for a couple of years if it gets me to flying :ok:)....

How about ten years?

For all of your twenties, whilst your contemporaries are out partying, going on holiday, earning more, and so on? (I know you think you can earn £50k straight out of uni. This is - unfortunately - very unlikely. I would love to be proved wrong.)

..In any case I could just find an airline that will bond me for a bizjet or an ejet or a Dash 8 for instance (probably far easier said than done) then lay low for a few years, pay off the 25k from before and take out a new loan for the type rating. We'll see how it goes honestly, anything could happen in the future and laying out a basic plan and getting involved in aviation is the most I can do at this point.

(my bold). Yes, it is far easier said than done. I think you'll find that in reality, 'just' being bonded for a bizjet/ejet/Dash 8 is the end and very bloody desirable goal for a very large percentage of commercial pilots. This should include you! It is not just a stepping stone onto the higher plane of existence (#sarcasm) that is airline flying.

I guarantee you that if you end up saying something like that in conversation with an experienced pilot - one who may well be involved in their operation's recruitment processes in some way - you will piss them off. Even if they are that superior form of life that is the Airline Pilot (#stillsarcasm).

...Honestly call me optimistic..

You're optimistic.

but I firmly believe that hard work beats luck at least 9 out of 10 times, if I put in the hard work (starting now) I could definitely make this dream a reality.

I agree. Go for it. Hard work is important. However, you will need luck too. You will need to end up being in the right place at the right time, somehow.

Just be aware that it is almost certainly going to be a LOT harder than you think, given what you've said. Also, be warned; the aviation industry goes up and down in cycles, traditionally about a seven year cycle. We're riding high right now. In the future, there 100% will be a downturn again; and it will either be very hard to get a first flying job, or you run the very real risk of being made redundant (again) because of downsizing or companies going bust.

No company is immune. Remember that little operator called Flybe, that went bust twice? The first time - although a lot of people could see the signs - it still went kaput, and spectacularly so. That was after decades of operation; it was seen as a safe bet for ages.

You need to go find out if you can pass a class 1 medical first, before you spend any money/take out a whopping great big loan. Find out if there are any showstoppers on the medical front first.

[rudestuff]

For all of your twenties, whilst your contemporaries are out partying, going on holiday, earning more, and so on?That is the key point. You have to sacrifice the short term for the long term. I remember talking to a guy once who worked in a ground role for an airline. He was maybe 18-19 and asked for to become a pilot. I asked if he or his family had £50-75k sitting around and he said no. I said in that case it'll take you 3-4 years if you do exactly what I say: Keep this job, get a weekend job and deliver pizza in the evenings. Give up your social life. Sell your car, don't drink, smoke or get anyone pregnant. In short you have to eat, sleep and earn money. Build your credit score and write-off 2 years of your life. Then you'll have enough to pay for half of your flight training and should be able to borrow the rest. You're driving an Astra right now. In 10 years you'll be driving an Astra... Or you could follow my advice and in 10 years it could be a Porsche instead. I could see his eyes glazing over and I knew right then it was going in one ear and it the other...

[alexeyAP]

Hi Alexey, easyJet currently do not take modular cadets and the integrated students who have just joined them (From schemes outside of the MPL) have had to pay for their type ratings, there is currently no option to be bonded.

Following on from a conversation with them yesterday they are looking to source another 200 pilots over the next year so if supply of integrated students dries up hopefully they will open the doors again to modular students.

Plan for the worst case scenario, e.g. paying for your TR then if you end up being bonded its a bonus.

Best of luck
Not surprised although it is a shame, I've always admired easyjet not only for the fleet (:ok:) and the destinations but the work environment (or what I see of it anyway). As hobbit said below the industry is quite cyclical so I don't think it will be an impossibility that they run dry when I plan to finish training (10+ year's time).
What connection to you have to EZY? Do you work there or are applying? As a pilot or flight ops?
I will try to take your advice (which seems to be quite common advice in this thread) and "prepare for the worst, hope for the best". Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[alexeyAP]

Slight thread drift, I wish all youngsters could write threads as lucidly and well composed as this young man. Impressed!.
Thank you kindly, it is what happens when your parents make big sacrifices to get you a decent education (which I am very grateful for).

[alexeyAP]

At the risk of saying the same things over again....



How about ten years?

For all of your twenties, whilst your contemporaries are out partying, going on holiday, earning more, and so on? (I know you think you can earn £50k straight out of uni. This is - unfortunately - very unlikely. I would love to be proved wrong.)



(my bold). Yes, it is far easier said than done. I think you'll find that in reality, 'just' being bonded for a bizjet/ejet/Dash 8 is the end and very bloody desirable goal for a very large percentage of commercial pilots. This should include you! It is not just a stepping stone onto the higher plane of existence (#sarcasm) that is airline flying.

I guarantee you that if you end up saying something like that in conversation with an experienced pilot - one who may well be involved in their operation's recruitment processes in some way - you will piss them off. Even if they are that superior form of life that is the Airline Pilot (#stillsarcasm).



You're optimistic.



I agree. Go for it. Hard work is important. However, you will need luck too. You will need to end up being in the right place at the right time, somehow.

Just be aware that it is almost certainly going to be a LOT harder than you think, given what you've said. Also, be warned; the aviation industry goes up and down in cycles, traditionally about a seven year cycle. We're riding high right now. In the future, there 100% will be a downturn again; and it will either be very hard to get a first flying job, or you run the very real risk of being made redundant (again) because of downsizing or companies going bust.

No company is immune. Remember that little operator called Flybe, that went bust twice? The first time - although a lot of people could see the signs - it still went kaput, and spectacularly so. That was after decades of operation; it was seen as a safe bet for ages.

You need to go find out if you can pass a class 1 medical first, before you spend any money/take out a whopping great big loan. Find out if there are any showstoppers on the medical front first.
You are probably correct about my 50k estimate but I will research where I can and try to pick the most lucrative jobs I can find (while also being decent at them+enjoying them a little). I also know that it's not as simple as 'finding' someone to bond you but I'll see what I can do about it when it comes to it. I'll listen to you and not tell any experienced pilot what I've just told you - especially not at an interview :ok:
I do try to be optimistic - I find that in most cases it has more benefits than drawbacks (although this discussion may be one of the exceptions!)
I don't know what I can do about being in the right place at the right time - but as mentioned above (perhaps even by yourself) that many flightschools have links/recruitment opportunities with many reputable airlines. I can't be more lucky but I can very well increase my chances if I play my cards right.
By the time I finish flight training (at 25-30 years of age) I am sure the aviation industry will have changed twice over. I can't predict the future though, so I suppose I will just have to wait and see where it goes.
I had a browse over the CAA Class 1 medical requirements; the only thing I could see possibly maybe being an issue is:
CLASS 1 - AMC1 MED.B.080(i) Eustachian tube(s) dysfunction

Applicants with permanent dysfunction of the Eustachian tube(s) may be assessed as fit if ENT evaluation is satisfactory.
I have a dysfunction of the Eustachian tubes (which I would argue is a benefit rather than a dysfunction) which means I can open and close them at will by flexing a muscle. I don't think it should cause any problems though, I imagine it would actually be quite useful for taking care of pressure changes hands-free.
Anyways, thank you again for the wisdom and advice, if all goes well I'll see you from the RHS of a jet in about a decade's time :ok:

ETA: I think there will be enough time in uni for going out and getting wasted before I start working any full time jobs :ok:

[Peter Ahonsi]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. When I finish school I will be 17 and then I will pursue higher education in uni in something non-aviation related so I can have a secure stable source of income to fund my training and as a plan B if aviation doesn't work out. I am also committed to doing this with as little debt as possible simply because if I finish my ATPLs with 25k of loans (plus interest!) and cannot find a good paying job then I will not be able to pay it back (even if I do it will be a setback when it comes to mortgaging a property as I have additional loan repayments to make). Doing some quick maths:

4 years (if I'm doing a M) of uni brings me to 21 at graduation.
Best-case scenario of a £50k p.a. job - let's say £45k after tax - I can live 'frugally' on £25k and invest/save the £20k left over. (£50k per annum if I work 2 jobs doesn't seem unreasonable depending on the field)
20k for 3 years (24-25 years old now) makes 60k on the upper end of a modular course (which let's face it will probably be on the lower end when I start training)
Train modularly non-stop for 1.5 years (which brings me to 26-27)
Fly for regionals/sightseeing tours/skydiving/banner towing/literally whatever for 2 or 3 years then graduate to an Airbus.

So as you can see my long-term plan (which you heavily suggested I stick to) will see me in the RHS of a Bus at best case maybe at 27 if I can get an airline job right after finishing training (not impossible if I pick my flight school right) and maybe 35 if it drags on. However your suggestion for me is to leave school, take out bigger and bigger loans to up my credit score until I can pay for a PPL and then...what? As mentioned above, no matter how well I do in my ATPL exams, airlines will be looking for real-world experience (which is something that uni and a good job can get me). You make it seem like for some strange and unknown reason I'm intentionally putting off being a pilot until my middle years which is just untrue, every step in the plan above is one step closer to a seat in the cockpit. As I said already my family is not all that well endowed and there is absolutely no way I could have my mum sponsor me through modular right after I leave school (especially because she's just a few years away from repaying the mortgage and I'm not about to ask her to put the house down to fund me). And to add, if I had put in my top post that I plan to become a fully fledged pilot at 20 years old, I guarantee you that you would have tsked and thought "wow, that boy is naive". Motivation and perseverance are important but so is thinking realistically.

This seems like a sensible approach chase your dream by all means, but not at your financial turmoil.

Avoid debt were possible , even if you get your first job at 30 that’s still 30+ years in the cockpit as long as you can maintain your medical.

There is no rush , do some travelling enjoy your GA flying. Just make sure you keep the goal in sight and don’t drift off.

All the best Captain.

Peter

[rudestuff]

Avoid debt were possible , even if you get your first job at 30
Avoid bad advice where possible. Debt is unavoidable in the 21st century. Avoid unaffordable debt. If being in debt saves you money and is affordable, you absolutely should get in debt.

[VariablePitchP]

Avoid bad advice where possible. Debt is unavoidable in the 21st century. Avoid unaffordable debt. If being in debt saves you money and is affordable, you absolutely should get in debt.

Nail. Head.

Taking on some debt could have you into the RHS at 25 rather than 30 OP. May not seem life changing now but if you leave it a few years to do more saving, life will come along, you’ll have a kid, etc etc and all of a sudden you wake up at 50 in your old job with a dusty old logbook somewhere with half a CPL in it.

You can live on beans and rice for a couple of years, you won’t be able to for six or seven.

[hobbit1983]

You are probably correct about my 50k estimate but I will research where I can and try to pick the most lucrative jobs I can find (while also being decent at them+enjoying them a little). I also know that it's not as simple as 'finding' someone to bond you but I'll see what I can do about it when it comes to it. I'll listen to you and not tell any experienced pilot what I've just told you - especially not at an interview :ok:

Glad to hear it. Lucrative often will go hand in hand with being decent at them. Plus enjoying them is the Holy Grail.

A good proportion of people interviewing for turboprop commuter jobs are of course trying to use it as a stepping stone to that shiny Boeing or Airbus. The successful ones don't point it out, although I'm sure the interview panel know. Others find those kind of jobs perfect.

An aside; One of the best pieces of advice I've ever gotten from an experienced pilot is to not chase the flashy, glamourous airline job to the exception of all else. People often sacrifice their social life/life outside of their job, their happiness, and relationships in order to get this kinda job. They often end up being miserable in the long term; there's a surprisingly high rate of AIDS in pilots I've known (not that - Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome). Hard to have a meaningful relationship with your spouse when you're never home in the evenings or weekends, or the roster makes you exhausted when you are. You can never get time back.

Go for the best combination of lifestyle, happiness, pay, and location you can. Even if that means being paid £60k instead of £100k - even if this means flying those lower forms of life (#moresarcasm) such as small turboprops or bizjets. Seriously - it's never all about the airlines.

I do try to be optimistic - I find that in most cases it has more benefits than drawbacks (although this discussion may be one of the exceptions!)
I don't know what I can do about being in the right place at the right time - but as mentioned above (perhaps even by yourself) that many flightschools have links/recruitment opportunities with many reputable airlines. I can't be more lucky but I can very well increase my chances if I play my cards right.

I think you will need to be optimistic to see your plan through.

They do, but IIRC the flight schools with those links are the more expensive integrated ones.

By the time I finish flight training (at 25-30 years of age) I am sure the aviation industry will have changed twice over. I can't predict the future though, so I suppose I will just have to wait and see where it goes.

In the next 7-12 years it probably won't have changed all that much. I'm sure we won't have any more major disruptors such as Covid (2020), the credit crunch (2008), 9-11 (2001), the first Gulf War (1991), etc etc in the next decade...why would we?

If you believe some of the more gloomy/forward looking predictions, you will probably see single-crew airliners, and then pilotless airliners, within the next 20-30 years. Have a back up plan so you can pay your mortgage.

I had a browse over the CAA Class 1 medical requirements; the only thing I could see possibly maybe being an issue is:

I have a dysfunction of the Eustachian tubes (which I would argue is a benefit rather than a dysfunction) which means I can open and close them at will by flexing a muscle. I don't think it should cause any problems though, I imagine it would actually be quite useful for taking care of pressure changes hands-free.

You need to find out -, and get in writing from an AME/the CAA - ASAP if this will allow you to get a Class 1 medical.

Anyways, thank you again for the wisdom and advice, if all goes well I'll see you from the RHS of a jet in about a decade's time :ok:

ETA: I think there will be enough time in uni for going out and getting wasted before I start working any full time jobs :ok:

No worries. The wisdom and advice is free, and therefore worth what you are paying for it. Act accordingly!

Hope to see you there.

[alexeyAP]

Nail. Head.

Taking on some debt could have you into the RHS at 25 rather than 30 OP. May not seem life changing now but if you leave it a few years to do more saving, life will come along, you’ll have a kid, etc etc and all of a sudden you wake up at 50 in your old job with a dusty old logbook somewhere with half a CPL in it.

You can live on beans and rice for a couple of years, you won’t be able to for six or seven.
As long as it's safe to do so I will probably end up taking out a loan to pay for at least part of the training in the end. While I'm usually not one to 'rush' to things you are probably right in terms of how early can I get my aviation career started, and also the salary that comes along with that. Thanks :)

[alexeyAP]

Glad to hear it. Lucrative often will go hand in hand with being decent at them. Plus enjoying them is the Holy Grail.

A good proportion of people interviewing for turboprop commuter jobs are of course trying to use it as a stepping stone to that shiny Boeing or Airbus. The successful ones don't point it out, although I'm sure the interview panel know. Others find those kind of jobs perfect.

An aside; One of the best pieces of advice I've ever gotten from an experienced pilot is to not chase the flashy, glamourous airline job to the exception of all else. People often sacrifice their social life/life outside of their job, their happiness, and relationships in order to get this kinda job. They often end up being miserable in the long term; there's a surprisingly high rate of AIDS in pilots I've known (not that - Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome). Hard to have a meaningful relationship with your spouse when you're never home in the evenings or weekends, or the roster makes you exhausted when you are. You can never get time back.

Go for the best combination of lifestyle, happiness, pay, and location you can. Even if that means being paid £60k instead of £100k - even if this means flying those lower forms of life (#moresarcasm) such as small turboprops or bizjets. Seriously - it's never all about the airlines.



I think you will need to be optimistic to see your plan through.

They do, but IIRC the flight schools with those links are the more expensive integrated ones.



In the next 7-12 years it probably won't have changed all that much. I'm sure we won't have any more major disruptors such as Covid (2020), the credit crunch (2008), 9-11 (2001), the first Gulf War (1991), etc etc in the next decade...why would we?

If you believe some of the more gloomy/forward looking predictions, you will probably see single-crew airliners, and then pilotless airliners, within the next 20-30 years. Have a back up plan so you can pay your mortgage.



You need to find out -, and get in writing from an AME/the CAA - ASAP if this will allow you to get a Class 1 medical.



No worries. The wisdom and advice is free, and therefore worth what you are paying for it. Act accordingly!

Hope to see you there.
I've heard of the AIDS you're talking about - TV would have you believe every pilot is seemingly thrice divorced and a raging alcoholic (although I'm sure most of them are only once divorced :ok:). Still, every pilot I've met - Easyjet, Ryanair, glider, GA, whatever - grins from ear to ear once they start talking about aviation. I can tell that their jobs inspire real passion - hopefully I'll feel the same. As for being paid £60k - I think my eyes would pop out of my sockets at that amount of money! Definitely more money than anyone in my family has seen for a long time if ever.
L3 Harris and CAE I believe now do modular courses as it's become quite trendy. I don't think CAE has any courses open at this particular moment but it's something I'll keep my eye on.
Back-up plan will probably be the lucrative yet enjoyable job as mentioned before.
How do I get that thing in writing from AME? Do I just pop one an email? I've just googled for AMEs around Edinburgh and there's a lot more than there was a year or two ago - 2 in Edinburgh alone. I'll see what contact details I can find and fingers crossed they write back.
Your advice may be free - but it's definitely worth a lot more than that :ok: Thanks again!

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

I've heard of the AIDS you're talking about - TV would have you believe every pilot is seemingly thrice divorced and a raging alcoholic (although I'm sure most of them are only once divorced :ok:). Still, every pilot I've met - Easyjet, Ryanair, glider, GA, whatever - grins from ear to ear once they start talking about aviation. I can tell that their jobs inspire real passion - hopefully I'll feel the same. As for being paid £60k - I think my eyes would pop out of my sockets at that amount of money! Definitely more money than anyone in my family has seen for a long time if ever.
L3 Harris and CAE I believe now do modular courses as it's become quite trendy. I don't think CAE has any courses open at this particular moment but it's something I'll keep my eye on.
Back-up plan will probably be the lucrative yet enjoyable job as mentioned before.
How do I get that thing in writing from AME? Do I just pop one an email? I've just googled for AMEs around Edinburgh and there's a lot more than there was a year or two ago - 2 in Edinburgh alone. I'll see what contact details I can find and fingers crossed they write back.
Your advice may be free - but it's definitely worth a lot more than that :ok: Thanks again!

I suspect you’ll be in for a shock when you see what AME advice and or a letter costs!

At your age 60k I am sure seems like a vast wealth, however believe me when I say that money melts away quickly if you are not careful. On that sort of money too, you will be unpleasantly surprised how much goes to the tax man - your eyes will really pop out of your sockets then! Also consider that (often) an aviation career will mean your spouse is either part time or a stay at home parent - and again you’ll find that as a single income, saving for two pensions etc, you’ll be amazed how that money disappears. Then one day you come home and say the rumours of redundancies and base closure are true and you’ll either be unemployed or moving to another continent. This is a fantastic tool when you’re doing maths around income: Take home pay calculator (https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php)(just use the tax code it suggests for now).

Aviation is my passion, I love my job, but I will tell you as soon as you have children (which is the most life affirming thing I have ever done) they become the priority - in my own view this is one of the pluses of a seniority based airline, as one is able to bid for more family friendly fleets or working options but you progress in seniority every year regardless. None of my retired colleagues have wished they had spent more time staring out the window on the way to Naples for the millionth time, but quite a number have wished they saw more of their children growing up.

I am not trying to put you off, I’m trying to temper some of your lack of exposure to the world of work - when pilots enter the work force, a bit of realism is always useful sooner rather than later, not least as it helps all of us realise better ts and cs.

[rudestuff]

As for being paid £60k - I think my eyes would pop out of my sockets at that amount of money! Definitely more money than anyone in my family has seen for a long time if ever.I used to think the same. But after 3 years and 2000 jet hours you'll be able to make triple that as an FO in the middle east. Quadruple when you make Captain 😁

[deltahotel]

My only advice - feel free to ignore - get a Class 1 before committing any time/effort/money towards your career ambitions. Only a small number of places do them - https://www.caa.co.uk/commercial-industry/pilot-licences/medical/apply-for-a-class-1-medical-certificate/

By all means get an opinion from AME as it may be a stopper but after that if you plan to go forward:

1. Get a Class 1
2. Get a Class 1
3. Get a Class 1

[hobbit1983]

I've heard of the AIDS you're talking about - TV would have you believe every pilot is seemingly thrice divorced and a raging alcoholic (although I'm sure most of them are only once divorced ). Still, every pilot I've met - Easyjet, Ryanair, glider, GA, whatever - grins from ear to ear once they start talking about aviation. I can tell that their jobs inspire real passion - hopefully I'll feel the same.

Remember - at the end of the day, it will still be a job. No sane person gets up at 0230 every day to fly the same route for years out of passion. I have yet to find a bank manager that will let me pay the bills with passion, either.

As for being paid £60k - I think my eyes would pop out of my sockets at that amount of money! Definitely more money than anyone in my family has seen for a long time if ever.

Sure. But there's this funny little thing that happens, where your outgoings rise straight up to your ingoings (have you factored your student loan repayments into your plan, btw?).

L3 Harris and CAE I believe now do modular courses as it's become quite trendy. I don't think CAE has any courses open at this particular moment but it's something I'll keep my eye on.

Not sure about trendy, but quite possibly they are reacting to market forces. i.e. their super expensive integrated courses may not be pulling in the customers (i.e. students) now.

Back-up plan will probably be the lucrative yet enjoyable job as mentioned before.

This is probably going to be hard or impossible to combine, especially with zero experience straight out of uni. Best of luck though, hope you find one.

How do I get that thing in writing from AME? Do I just pop one an email? I've just googled for AMEs around Edinburgh and there's a lot more than there was a year or two ago - 2 in Edinburgh alone. I'll see what contact details I can find and fingers crossed they write back.

Since you already (sort of) have something in writing from the CAA website, you'll more than likely just get that quote back in an email. But it won't prove anything, as you need to have a professional examine you, and your particular case.

You are after a Class 1 initial medical. This will tell you if a) your ear condition will allow you to have one - don't assume it will! and b) if there is anything else you don't know about, that won't allow you to have one.

You cannot be an airline/GA pilot without a Class 1. You should get one before you commit loads of £. You might as well go get it done now. There are multiple places you can do so at; see deltahotel's post, or the sticky post at the top of this forum section, or your good friend Google. Not all AMEs do Class 1s, and there are only a few places you can get your first Class 1 done at.

Your advice may be free - but it's definitely worth a lot more than that Thanks again!

No guarantees....(in this advice, or in flying!)

[alexeyAP]

Remember - at the end of the day, it will still be a job. No sane person gets up at 0230 every day to fly the same route for years out of passion. I have yet to find a bank manager that will let me pay the bills with passion, either.



Sure. But there's this funny little thing that happens, where your outgoings rise straight up to your ingoings (have you factored your student loan repayments into your plan, btw?).



Not sure about trendy, but quite possibly they are reacting to market forces. i.e. their super expensive integrated courses may not be pulling in the customers (i.e. students) now.



This is probably going to be hard or impossible to combine, especially with zero experience straight out of uni. Best of luck though, hope you find one.



Since you already (sort of) have something in writing from the CAA website, you'll more than likely just get that quote back in an email. But it won't prove anything, as you need to have a professional examine you, and your particular case.

You are after a Class 1 initial medical. This will tell you if a) your ear condition will allow you to have one - don't assume it will! and b) if there is anything else you don't know about, that won't allow you to have one.

You cannot be an airline/GA pilot without a Class 1. You should get one before you commit loads of £. You might as well go get it done now. There are multiple places you can do so at; see deltahotel's post, or the sticky post at the top of this forum section, or your good friend Google. Not all AMEs do Class 1s, and there are only a few places you can get your first Class 1 done at.



No guarantees....(in this advice, or in flying!)
Hello again, I was up at RAF Lossiemouth with Cadets for a week so couldn't reply. Seeing the jets and talking to the pilots/recruiters has really inspired me to try and apply for a pilot role at RAF as soon as I leave school, the job has multiple benefits (not least flying Typhoons about Scotland!) including subsidised accommodation and food (so pretty much 0 outgoings), and also the RAF will pay for some part (80% was the number mentioned) of any degree/qualification/license you ask them for which if I'm not wrong includes PPL. I know that pilot roles are currently closed (and as you said there will be a bit of luck required if I'm to apply straight out of school) but the Navy currently have theirs open so I will submit an application there too. I think getting in is doable (if not difficult) - by my calculations 0.3% of applicants are accepted into the role but the recruiter mentioned that you can prepare for the assessment as well - they do a computer based test for which there is a cheat sheet online and an iphone app to practice. I'm also thinking about possibly joining the RAF whether as a pilot or not - possible as some other kind of aircrew/groundcrew (you can start in an engineering role and they will 'internally commission' you to an engineering officer) then PPL on the side as mentioned. I think ATC would be fun but I'd also love to get hands-on with the jets. For reference, a non-officer starts at 16k p.a. which seems bad until you consider that the RAF pay for pretty much all of your living expenses. Officers start at 30k and get pay rises every year. I believe the training time is 10 weeks for non officers and 24 for officers, might be worth checking.
I don't think I would be able to convince my mum to fork over the £ for a Class 1 just yet - however I am planning to apply for a gliding scholarship (if I do get in it will probably take place next summer as I'm not 16 yet) with the air cadets for which there is some sort of medical assessment and I will ask them then. Cheers.

[hobbit1983]

Hello again, I was up at RAF Lossiemouth with Cadets for a week so couldn't reply. Seeing the jets and talking to the pilots/recruiters has really inspired me to try and apply for a pilot role at RAF as soon as I leave school, the job has multiple benefits (not least flying Typhoons about Scotland!) including subsidised accommodation and food (so pretty much 0 outgoings), and also the RAF will pay for some part (80% was the number mentioned) of any degree/qualification/license you ask them for which if I'm not wrong includes PPL. I know that pilot roles are currently closed (and as you said there will be a bit of luck required if I'm to apply straight out of school) but the Navy currently have theirs open so I will submit an application there too.
I think getting in is doable (if not difficult) - by my calculations 0.3% of applicants are accepted into the role but the recruiter mentioned that you can prepare for the assessment as well - they do a computer based test for which there is a cheat sheet online and an iphone app to practice.
No worries. Go for it. Bear in mind, it is INCREDIBLY competitive, more so than I think you know. You will be up against super high achievers who have lived and breathed wanting to be RAF aircrew since primary school (probably). It is doable, but it is also very, very hard. There are very few places for lots and lots of wannabes.
Passing selection tests are likely to be a bit harder than the bits you can use a cheat sheet and an app to practise for.

I'm also thinking about possibly joining the RAF whether as a pilot or not - possible as some other kind of aircrew/groundcrew (you can start in an engineering role and they will 'internally commission' you to an engineering officer) then PPL on the side as mentioned. I think ATC would be fun but I'd also love to get hands-on with the jets.
Sounds like a good plan.

For reference, a non-officer starts at 16k p.a. which seems bad until you consider that the RAF pay for pretty much all of your living expenses. Officers start at 30k and get pay rises every year.
No one joins the RAF as aircrew because of the pay. This is not a motivating factor. Do not mention "I want to join the RAF cos you pay for living expenses," in any interview. Remember - the recruiters see hundreds of wannabe pilots every year (when recruitment is open). They will easily be able to tell what your motivations for joining are. If they realise you're joining up to get your training paid for, you will not be getting in.
I believe the training time is 10 weeks for non officers and 24 for officers, might be worth checking.
Do your research (the other parts of PPrune are a good place to start). You can expect to take years from joining up to actually getting into a jet. You are talking about the officer training. This is seperate from aircrew flight training. The RAF will expect you to be an officer before you're a pilot.
The RAF training pipeline is a delayed mess, and it's not getting any better. Aircrew trainees have spent years holding (i.e. not flying) recently.
I don't think I would be able to convince my mum to fork over the £ for a Class 1 just yet - however I am planning to apply for a gliding scholarship (if I do get in it will probably take place next summer as I'm not 16 yet)...
Good move; a gliding scholarship is a good move no matter which route you take later. Go for it.
.. with the air cadets for which there is some sort of medical assessment and I will ask them then. Cheers.
Ok. It doesn't count for a class one though; you can't substitute something else for it. Before you spend any money on (civilian) flight training, get a class one. Worth finding out if you can pass RAF/RN aircrew medical standards now though.

[TheYorkshirePilot]

Hi Mate,
Id definitely advise a job in the industry before starting ATPLs. I worked as a dispatcher for a well known holiday airline for a year before joining my ATO on an integrated course. The life skills it gives you, as well as helping ATPL studies is invaluable, plus you can make some amazing contacts for when the time comes to apply for jobs.

On the modular route, I wouldn't worry about getting a job because airlines can't afford to be picky anymore. From my ATO numerous modular students have been placed with DHL, TUI, easyJet and the like. Plus now with the BA NQPP you have even more options.

Hope this helps!

[sudden twang]

I’m hearing BA have just answered your prayers

[FutureWannabe]

Hello everyone,

Having read a good few threads in the "wannabes" forum, none of them quite matched my situation so I decided to make my own thread.
[Insert here, the usual paragraph about how becoming a pilot has always been my dream, passion, etc, etc. It's all been said before]

So, I've decided to consult the unquestionable hivemind that is PPRuNe on how to proceed with life and the choices I should make, as I'm sure all sane people do. A bit about me first, currently 18, awaiting A-Level results, London based, living with parents, so in short expenses are... non-existent. Flight school is of course, expensive, but not completely unachievable, from the research I've done the most logical path to take is to get a job (preferably aviation focussed from what I've heard) save a decent chunk of cash, build up a credit history, get a loan for the rest, go modular because integrated is the spawn of Satan and live laugh love my way into the RHS of an airliner, but life isn't that simple is it? To make this easier for everyone I'll split this into a few primary questions:

1) Uni or no Uni? Now of course going to Uni is a great way to get better earning potential and also acts as a "Plan B", but I just can't see myself spending approx. 3 years doing a course which isn't my end goal career, only to end up with a mountain of debt and somewhat questionable job prospects.

2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?

3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?

4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.

5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?

6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)

7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?

8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?

9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?

10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?

Phew... that's a lot more than I expected to write and probably a lot more than anyone is willing to answer, so regardless of if you answer one, all, or none at all, any advice is welcome. Thanks in advance.

[alexeyAP]

No worries. Go for it. Bear in mind, it is INCREDIBLY competitive, more so than I think you know. You will be up against super high achievers who have lived and breathed wanting to be RAF aircrew since primary school (probably). It is doable, but it is also very, very hard. There are very few places for lots and lots of wannabes.
Passing selection tests are likely to be a bit harder than the bits you can use a cheat sheet and an app to practise for.

Sounds like a good plan.

No one joins the RAF as aircrew because of the pay. This is not a motivating factor. Do not mention "I want to join the RAF cos you pay for living expenses," in any interview. Remember - the recruiters see hundreds of wannabe pilots every year (when recruitment is open). They will easily be able to tell what your motivations for joining are. If they realise you're joining up to get your training paid for, you will not be getting in.

Do your research (the other parts of PPrune are a good place to start). You can expect to take years from joining up to actually getting into a jet. You are talking about the officer training. This is seperate from aircrew flight training. The RAF will expect you to be an officer before you're a pilot.
The RAF training pipeline is a delayed mess, and it's not getting any better. Aircrew trainees have spent years holding (i.e. not flying) recently.

Good move; a gliding scholarship is a good move no matter which route you take later. Go for it.

Ok. It doesn't count for a class one though; you can't substitute something else for it. Before you spend any money on (civilian) flight training, get a class one. Worth finding out if you can pass RAF/RN aircrew medical standards now though.
While selection is definitely difficult, the bits that I can prepare for I will prepare for and the rest is down to aptitude (and luck). It can't hurt to apply, I'll do it as often as I can if I get rejected.
If my main motivation was pay, I'd go and sell cars :ok: My biggest motivation personally would be that I love flying and have a passion for aviation, and I think that RAF is a good way to do my duty to my country and fly at the same time.
Yeah, I've heard that it takes up to 2 years to go do further training after your basic flying and that the RAF is a bureaucratic mess. Won't stop me though.
I was just going to get an opinion before sinking money into a class 1 to see if it's a big deal (which I don't see it being, but anything can happen). RAF medical looks all fine, just need to work on the fitness (I can do the pushups and situps fine but the 1.5m run needs worked on. I've improved over the past few days though, I started at 15 minutes 30 and my time today was 13 minutes 50 which is not nearly enough but I'll just have to keep training). RN might be more difficult, I'll have a look later.

[alexeyAP]

Hi Mate,
Id definitely advise a job in the industry before starting ATPLs. I worked as a dispatcher for a well known holiday airline for a year before joining my ATO on an integrated course. The life skills it gives you, as well as helping ATPL studies is invaluable, plus you can make some amazing contacts for when the time comes to apply for jobs.

On the modular route, I wouldn't worry about getting a job because airlines can't afford to be picky anymore. From my ATO numerous modular students have been placed with DHL, TUI, easyJet and the like. Plus now with the BA NQPP you have even more options.

Hope this helps!
Thanks mate, if you don't mind me asking how did you manage to fund your ATPL? Did you end up working for the aforementioned holiday airline after training? (Would the ATO in question start with an L, end with an H, and have a 3 somewhere in the middle?)

[alexeyAP]

I’m hearing BA have just answered your prayers
Yep just read about that too. Awesome if true but I can't imagine getting onto a 60-person course would be an easy task.

[VariablePitchP]

1) Uni or no Uni? Now of course going to Uni is a great way to get better earning potential and also acts as a "Plan B", but I just can't see myself spending approx. 3 years doing a course which isn't my end goal career, only to end up with a mountain of debt and somewhat questionable job prospects.

Totally up to you. Best three years of your life if it’s right for you. I don’t buy into the Plan B rubbish. You want to be a pilot, go be a pilot. A degree doesn’t help much without experience anyway so a true Plan B needs another 5 years in industry, you’re looking at a decade all in to have a really solid plan B. Or you could just become a pilot… If that doesn’t work then go and get a different job.

It’s like leaving school with the dream of becoming a police officer but first spending five years getting all of your accounting qualifications ‘just in case’, makes no sense.


2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?

No. But why would you get a 22-25K job? Plenty of jobs that’ll pay better than that you can walk into, they may just be pretty savage. You may need to work extra hours, but 60 hours a week when you’re young and massively motivated is very doable. If you’re doing less than that question your motivation. As has been endlessly said on here, you can borrow a good chunk of the cash once you get some credit behind you. Start grossing £35K a year, bank £20K a year. Two years of that, couple of loans and you’re there.


3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?

It’s a loan, you’d have to pay it off. Same with a mortgage if you lose your job. Them’s the breaks.


4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.

Airlines don’t care where you got the piece of paper from. Case in point, BA is currently open for Modular students who have trained at up to 3 ATOs


5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?

If you do reasonably well in training, and have at least some degree of aptitude you’re fine. It’s Europe, the system is geared up for entry to the RHS of a 737/320. You’ve got EU right to work as well. That puts you about most UK licence holders. Worst case, you can just throw £30K at Ryanair for a type rating and work for them. When a job’s that close that is a no brainer for the debt equation.


6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)

Massively increases your employability. Do them in parallel, schools are geared up for it. If you go back and do it later you’ll be relearning question banks.


7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?

Yes, can only speak for the UK but TUI have already recruited this year for a funded scheme, which hopefully you applied for. BA open this year, again you’ll presumably be applying for that!



8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?

Pretty easy to be honest. Groundschool goes no harder than C grade GCSE maths. The workload is very high, the content is simple. Commercial flying is designed to be as easy as it can be as it makes it safer. You’re not joining the Red Arrows.


9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?

Maybe a week of mucking about at head office learning how to wear ear defenders but generally if you’re new to type it’s a six week type rating then maybe another 4- 6weeks of line training. Then you’re signed off to go and see the world*

*World being a euphemism for the crew car park at 3am and various European airport coffee shops of varying quality.


10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?

fATPL isn’t a thing, it’s just a handy name for the collection of bits of paper you get at the end. ATPL theory, ME CPL/IR for the ‘fATPL’. Then you add in an APS MCC with a sprinkling of UPRT and you’re good to go. Unlike the US where people really do take all sorts of routes, it’s a given here that you want to fly a jet so the schools are all structured around the fATPL, you’d have to actively go against the grain to not end up with that at the end.

[rudestuff]

Hello everyone,

Having read a good few threads in the "wannabes" forum, none of them quite matched my situation so I decided to make my own thread.
[Insert here, the usual paragraph about how becoming a pilot has always been my dream, passion, etc, etc. It's all been said before]

So, I've decided to consult the unquestionable hivemind that is PPRuNe on how to proceed with life and the choices I should make, as I'm sure all sane people do. A bit about me first, currently 18, awaiting A-Level results, London based, living with parents, so in short expenses are... non-existent. Flight school is of course, expensive, but not completely unachievable, from the research I've done the most logical path to take is to get a job (preferably aviation focussed from what I've heard) save a decent chunk of cash, build up a credit history, get a loan for the rest, go modular because integrated is the spawn of Satan and live laugh love my way into the RHS of an airliner, but life isn't that simple is it? To make this easier for everyone I'll split this into a few primary questions:

1) Uni or no Uni? Now of course going to Uni is a great way to get better earning potential and also acts as a "Plan B", but I just can't see myself spending approx. 3 years doing a course which isn't my end goal career, only to end up with a mountain of debt and somewhat questionable job prospects.

2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?

3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?

4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.

5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?

6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)

7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?

8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?

9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?

10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?

Phew... that's a lot more than I expected to write and probably a lot more than anyone is willing to answer, so regardless of if you answer one, all, or none at all, any advice is welcome. Thanks in advance.
1) Personally No. Simply because your backup plan would cost the same if not more than your primary. The number one reason for going to Uni should be because you want to. Plenty of places will offer a degree to piggy back on your ATPL later on.

2) A plan is only as realistic as your ability to stick to it. which is why short and sharp is better. If you're going to give up 2 years of your life to be a worker bee then commit to it. 2 years should be the maximum. Work evenings and 7 days a week if you need to. The temptation will be there to spread it out over just a few more years. Your friends aren't coming with you on this journey, sorry.

3) Loans are not necessary. But how many people do you know who rented for 25 years then bought a house in cash? Debts is a fact of modern life and is useful.
If you only ever eat, sleep and work 2-3 jobs, taking home 2k a month while living at home with zero expenses - what makes you think you can't afford a bit of debt? Those 2 years will be the foundation of the rest of your life. Your work ethic will be through the roof and everything will seem easy.
Think of it this way: You have to save money before you can spend it. Borrowed money can be spent immediately. Let's say you need 60k and you can save 15k per year. You save for 4 years then you can spend it. If you borrow the money and pay it off over 4 years you can spend it NOW. Yes you'll spend a bit in interest - but the time saved is a thousand times more valuable:
If your goal is to get into an airline job then every year you wait costs you £200,000.

4) Don't believe the hype. Integrated/MPL should ONLY be done if there's a guaranteed job or near to a guaranteed job at the end of it. It is not quicker. If you are smarter you'll be held back by learning at the pace of the rest of the class. Modular means you dictate the pace, which can be faster than integrated.

5) The hardest part. Timing is everything, some people fall straight into jobs and others don't. Don't think that's just bad luck and believe all the sob stories either - someone had to be at the bottom of the class.
In Europe anyone without at least 500 hours of Jet experience is considered a cadet. It's the entry level, and it's based on training costs. The most desirable pilot will be type rated and experienced. My last job gave me 3 sims and 10 sectors of line training which took a few weeks. A cadet will have to do 6-8 weeks of groundschool and 14 Sim sessions, wait 3-4 weeks for their licence then do 40-80 line training sectors. It's much more expensive and a much bigger training burden. Some airlines like RYR have a business model based on Cadets. Others will only take small numbers out when market conditions force them to. Being that first job is half luck and half guile. Plenty of people have back-doored themselves into the cockpit by starting in a ground role at an airline. The HR people get a hard-on for those zero to hero stories that go into the company newsletter. Its the long game but it works. Now who do you know who needs a regular job for a few years? Yes you, you sneaky bastard.

6) Some things are so obvious it's ridiculous. Like people with US passports who say "should I train in Europe or the US?" You get the licence which offers the most prospects. For you that's Europe. So get both.

7) Yes. Find them, apply, get rejected, move on.

8) Easy. If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. Maths is GCSE level. For the exams you'll need to understand angles and ratios (1:60 etc), sin/cos/tan for navigation working out lat/long etc, time zones. Nothing that can't be learned or relearned. Why would you talk about drop out rates? Don't you want to do it?

9) Not exactly something you need to worry about is it? You just go with the flow. They send you to ground school for the type they want you to fly then you do the sim training and the test. You do all the ground courses you need like CRM, Dangerous goods, wet drills in the pool, safety equipment, firefighting etc... and then you start flying your line training...

10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.

The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?

90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.

For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.

Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.

[alexeyAP]

For all in the thread, I've just found out about an event called Pilot Careers Live (https://www.pilotcareernews.com/live/) which is essentially a big conference/open day/careers convention for flight schools to advertise, answer questions, bit of networking etc. There's meant to be ones this year in Frankfurt, Dublin and London if anyone is interested :)

[rleungz]

This is a golden nugget of advice! I'm saving the below in my budget notes. I'm about to embark on the mod route, class 1 medical booked before I start though.


1)

10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.

The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?

90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.

For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.

Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.

[alexeyAP]

1) Personally No. Simply because your backup plan would cost the same if not more than your primary. The number one reason for going to Uni should be because you want to. Plenty of places will offer a degree to piggy back on your ATPL later on.

2) A plan is only as realistic as your ability to stick to it. which is why short and sharp is better. If you're going to give up 2 years of your life to be a worker bee then commit to it. 2 years should be the maximum. Work evenings and 7 days a week if you need to. The temptation will be there to spread it out over just a few more years. Your friends aren't coming with you on this journey, sorry.

3) Loans are not necessary. But how many people do you know who rented for 25 years then bought a house in cash? Debts is a fact of modern life and is useful.
If you only ever eat, sleep and work 2-3 jobs, taking home 2k a month while living at home with zero expenses - what makes you think you can't afford a bit of debt? Those 2 years will be the foundation of the rest of your life. Your work ethic will be through the roof and everything will seem easy.
Think of it this way: You have to save money before you can spend it. Borrowed money can be spent immediately. Let's say you need 60k and you can save 15k per year. You save for 4 years then you can spend it. If you borrow the money and pay it off over 4 years you can spend it NOW. Yes you'll spend a bit in interest - but the time saved is a thousand times more valuable:
If your goal is to get into an airline job then every year you wait costs you £200,000.

4) Don't believe the hype. Integrated/MPL should ONLY be done if there's a guaranteed job or near to a guaranteed job at the end of it. It is not quicker. If you are smarter you'll be held back by learning at the pace of the rest of the class. Modular means you dictate the pace, which can be faster than integrated.

5) The hardest part. Timing is everything, some people fall straight into jobs and others don't. Don't think that's just bad luck and believe all the sob stories either - someone had to be at the bottom of the class.
In Europe anyone without at least 500 hours of Jet experience is considered a cadet. It's the entry level, and it's based on training costs. The most desirable pilot will be type rated and experienced. My last job gave me 3 sims and 10 sectors of line training which took a few weeks. A cadet will have to do 6-8 weeks of groundschool and 14 Sim sessions, wait 3-4 weeks for their licence then do 40-80 line training sectors. It's much more expensive and a much bigger training burden. Some airlines like RYR have a business model based on Cadets. Others will only take small numbers out when market conditions force them to. Being that first job is half luck and half guile. Plenty of people have back-doored themselves into the cockpit by starting in a ground role at an airline. The HR people get a hard-on for those zero to hero stories that go into the company newsletter. Its the long game but it works. Now who do you know who needs a regular job for a few years? Yes you, you sneaky bastard.

6) Some things are so obvious it's ridiculous. Like people with US passports who say "should I train in Europe or the US?" You get the licence which offers the most prospects. For you that's Europe. So get both.

7) Yes. Find them, apply, get rejected, move on.

8) Easy. If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. Maths is GCSE level. For the exams you'll need to understand angles and ratios (1:60 etc), sin/cos/tan for navigation working out lat/long etc, time zones. Nothing that can't be learned or relearned. Why would you talk about drop out rates? Don't you want to do it?

9) Not exactly something you need to worry about is it? You just go with the flow. They send you to ground school for the type they want you to fly then you do the sim training and the test. You do all the ground courses you need like CRM, Dangerous goods, wet drills in the pool, safety equipment, firefighting etc... and then you start flying your line training...

10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.

The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?

90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.

For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.

Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.
Thanks, do you know what the prices for PPL are in the US compared to UK? (I've already been told that 'time is money' and that the US has basically non stop flying weather). And am I right in saying that with an FAA PPL you can do both a CAA and EASA ATPL? I was looking at the 'dual ATPL' that Leading Edge allegedly offer:

When attaining your flight crew licence post Brexit, the discussion of do I want a UK CAA or a Dual UK CAA & EASA licence is an important one.Leading Edge Aviation are approved with both the UK CAA & EASA to deliver Flight Training and can offer you either the chance to attain a UK CAA licence, or the chance to maximise your employment opportunities and hold both.

Seems like not too bad an idea to get both for a few extra grand. Also, Leading Edge do modular training (but you need to hold a PPL first) although they've sneakily hidden the pricing somewhere (I'll have a dig around when I'm on my PC).

EDIT: Apparently the dual ATPL is only available to their integrated students. Bummer.

[SamPope5]

I am a modular student at doing dual licensing. A fair few of us doing modular courses although most are doing this alongside a university course which is just as expensive as integrated. I did my PPL at Stapleford in 2020 and they managed to get me flying x3 a week and had it completed by the end of the summer although not sure how this is now compared to the pandemic availability of instructors and aircraft which allowed me to do this so quickly, but would recommend. My instructor went above and beyond for my training needs. I am of to Spain next month after final exams for the hour building phase with LE. As has been said before make sure you visit the ATOs and try and get as much information from students there as they don’t put on there brochures about the delays in training etc. I spent two years before making the commitment post PPL and I still ended up with unexpected surprises with the route I have chosen.

[alexeyAP]

I am a modular student at LE doing dual licensing. A fair few of us doing modular courses although most are doing this alongside a university course which is just as expensive as integrated. I did my PPL at Stapleford in 2020 and they managed to get me flying x3 a week and had it completed by the end of the summer although not sure how this is now compared to the pandemic availability of instructors and aircraft which allowed me to do this so quickly, but would recommend. My instructor went above and beyond for my training needs. I am of to Spain next month after final exams for the hour building phase with LE. As has been said before make sure you visit the ATOs and try and get as much information from students there as they don’t put on there brochures about the delays in training etc. I spent two years before making the commitment post PPL and I still ended up with unexpected surprises with the route I have chosen.
Thanks Sam, how much extra did the dual licence cost you? I think that anything up to 10 grand probably puts it into the 'worth it' category as you can then go on to fly foreign registered aircraft which is probably very important considering even UK based airlines e.g. Ryanair have entire fleets of EI- registered aircraft (same with EZY, Wizz etc.). Am I correct in saying that you 'pay as you go' for hour building? All in all how much would you estimate your training to have cost you?
With regards to ATOs etc. I've managed to convince my mum to drag me along to the pilot careers live open day I mentioned earlier which is in October and there are a large number of ATOs exhibiting there (including LE) and various seminars etc. Hopefully I will get some answers to some of my questions.
Do you regret doing your PPL in the UK vs US? Do you think it worked out cheaper than the alternative would have been?
Thanks in advance :)

[sudden twang]

Yep just read about that too. Awesome if true but I can't imagine getting onto a 60-person course would be an easy task.

Best quote for the flying game
“ if you think you can do something or you think you can’t you’re right.”

Get your positive head on.

1000s have been waiting for this it’s open to everyone minimal education requirements no age. BA have cast their net far and wide.

The successful applicants will have put their ducks in a row knowing this opportunity had to come and will apply in the first week of it opening. Career wise they’ll never look back.

[Angle_of_Attack]

Best quote for the flying game
“ if you think you can do something or you think you can’t you’re right.”

Get your positive head on.

1000s have been waiting for this it’s open to everyone minimal education requirements no age. BA have cast their net far and wide.

The successful applicants will have put their ducks in a row knowing this opportunity had to come and will apply in the first week of it opening. Career wise they’ll never look back.

Age limit is 18 - 55.

[Alex Whittingham]

how much extra did the dual licence cost you? I think that anything up to 10 grand probably puts it into the 'worth it' category

The dual licence can be obtained for the extra cost of (i) an additional EASA Class 1 medical (ii) licence issue fees from your chosen EASA State and (iii) an additional set of ATPL exam fees. Overall I would guess about £1500 to £2000. It is possible to conduct the professional elements of your training at Modular ATOs who carry dual approval - one course two ticks - and also get your CPL and IR flight tests examined by dual qualified examiners - one test two ticks. Not all modular ATOs can arrange this, some have a surcharge to, for instance, fly to Ireland and take a test there, but it can be done. As to the idea of integrated ATOs offering modular training... they all do this when the integrated concept comes under pressure, and it is under pressure now. The habitual behaviour is firstly to overcharge for modular courses because they are a 'big school with airline connections' and then when integrated becomes popular again the remaining modular pilots suddenly find it's hard to get an aeroplane..... instructors not available ..... the integrated courses need to get finished, so sorry.

Finally, I cannot emphasise enough the importance of properly researching your ATO. Do NOT pay more than a few thousand up front. Look at the Companies House records. There are some very financially precarious operators out there and already this year many pilots have lost tens of thousands when ATOs have gone bust. Slick advertising does not mean financial security. *Pay as you fly*

[sudden twang]

[QUOTE=Angle_of_Attack;11471767]Age limit is 18 - 55.[/QUOTE

Really? Who’d have thought 🙄

[Angle_of_Attack]

[QUOTE=Angle_of_Attack;11471767]Age limit is 18 - 55.[/QUOTE

Really? Who’d have thought 🙄

Not sure why you're rolling your eyes, I've seen more than a few comments from people in their 50s & 60s asking if they'd be eligible.. so perhaps it's them you're rolling your eyes at?

[FutureWannabe]

1) Uni or no Uni? Now of course going to Uni is a great way to get better earning potential and also acts as a "Plan B", but I just can't see myself spending approx. 3 years doing a course which isn't my end goal career, only to end up with a mountain of debt and somewhat questionable job prospects.

Totally up to you. Best three years of your life if it’s right for you. I don’t buy into the Plan B rubbish. You want to be a pilot, go be a pilot. A degree doesn’t help much without experience anyway so a true Plan B needs another 5 years in industry, you’re looking at a decade all in to have a really solid plan B. Or you could just become a pilot… If that doesn’t work then go and get a different job.

It’s like leaving school with the dream of becoming a police officer but first spending five years getting all of your accounting qualifications ‘just in case’, makes no sense.


2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?

No. But why would you get a 22-25K job? Plenty of jobs that’ll pay better than that you can walk into, they may just be pretty savage. You may need to work extra hours, but 60 hours a week when you’re young and massively motivated is very doable. If you’re doing less than that question your motivation. As has been endlessly said on here, you can borrow a good chunk of the cash once you get some credit behind you. Start grossing £35K a year, bank £20K a year. Two years of that, couple of loans and you’re there.


3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?

It’s a loan, you’d have to pay it off. Same with a mortgage if you lose your job. Them’s the breaks.


4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.

Airlines don’t care where you got the piece of paper from. Case in point, BA is currently open for Modular students who have trained at up to 3 ATOs


5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?

If you do reasonably well in training, and have at least some degree of aptitude you’re fine. It’s Europe, the system is geared up for entry to the RHS of a 737/320. You’ve got EU right to work as well. That puts you about most UK licence holders. Worst case, you can just throw £30K at Ryanair for a type rating and work for them. When a job’s that close that is a no brainer for the debt equation.


6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)

Massively increases your employability. Do them in parallel, schools are geared up for it. If you go back and do it later you’ll be relearning question banks.


7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?

Yes, can only speak for the UK but TUI have already recruited this year for a funded scheme, which hopefully you applied for. BA open this year, again you’ll presumably be applying for that!



8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?

Pretty easy to be honest. Groundschool goes no harder than C grade GCSE maths. The workload is very high, the content is simple. Commercial flying is designed to be as easy as it can be as it makes it safer. You’re not joining the Red Arrows.


9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?

Maybe a week of mucking about at head office learning how to wear ear defenders but generally if you’re new to type it’s a six week type rating then maybe another 4- 6weeks of line training. Then you’re signed off to go and see the world*

*World being a euphemism for the crew car park at 3am and various European airport coffee shops of varying quality.


10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?

fATPL isn’t a thing, it’s just a handy name for the collection of bits of paper you get at the end. ATPL theory, ME CPL/IR for the ‘fATPL’. Then you add in an APS MCC with a sprinkling of UPRT and you’re good to go. Unlike the US where people really do take all sorts of routes, it’s a given here that you want to fly a jet so the schools are all structured around the fATPL, you’d have to actively go against the grain to not end up with that at the end.

1) Personally No. Simply because your backup plan would cost the same if not more than your primary. The number one reason for going to Uni should be because you want to. Plenty of places will offer a degree to piggy back on your ATPL later on.

2) A plan is only as realistic as your ability to stick to it. which is why short and sharp is better. If you're going to give up 2 years of your life to be a worker bee then commit to it. 2 years should be the maximum. Work evenings and 7 days a week if you need to. The temptation will be there to spread it out over just a few more years. Your friends aren't coming with you on this journey, sorry.

3) Loans are not necessary. But how many people do you know who rented for 25 years then bought a house in cash? Debts is a fact of modern life and is useful.
If you only ever eat, sleep and work 2-3 jobs, taking home 2k a month while living at home with zero expenses - what makes you think you can't afford a bit of debt? Those 2 years will be the foundation of the rest of your life. Your work ethic will be through the roof and everything will seem easy.
Think of it this way: You have to save money before you can spend it. Borrowed money can be spent immediately. Let's say you need 60k and you can save 15k per year. You save for 4 years then you can spend it. If you borrow the money and pay it off over 4 years you can spend it NOW. Yes you'll spend a bit in interest - but the time saved is a thousand times more valuable:
If your goal is to get into an airline job then every year you wait costs you £200,000.

4) Don't believe the hype. Integrated/MPL should ONLY be done if there's a guaranteed job or near to a guaranteed job at the end of it. It is not quicker. If you are smarter you'll be held back by learning at the pace of the rest of the class. Modular means you dictate the pace, which can be faster than integrated.

5) The hardest part. Timing is everything, some people fall straight into jobs and others don't. Don't think that's just bad luck and believe all the sob stories either - someone had to be at the bottom of the class.
In Europe anyone without at least 500 hours of Jet experience is considered a cadet. It's the entry level, and it's based on training costs. The most desirable pilot will be type rated and experienced. My last job gave me 3 sims and 10 sectors of line training which took a few weeks. A cadet will have to do 6-8 weeks of groundschool and 14 Sim sessions, wait 3-4 weeks for their licence then do 40-80 line training sectors. It's much more expensive and a much bigger training burden. Some airlines like RYR have a business model based on Cadets. Others will only take small numbers out when market conditions force them to. Being that first job is half luck and half guile. Plenty of people have back-doored themselves into the cockpit by starting in a ground role at an airline. The HR people get a hard-on for those zero to hero stories that go into the company newsletter. Its the long game but it works. Now who do you know who needs a regular job for a few years? Yes you, you sneaky bastard.

6) Some things are so obvious it's ridiculous. Like people with US passports who say "should I train in Europe or the US?" You get the licence which offers the most prospects. For you that's Europe. So get both.

7) Yes. Find them, apply, get rejected, move on.

8) Easy. If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. Maths is GCSE level. For the exams you'll need to understand angles and ratios (1:60 etc), sin/cos/tan for navigation working out lat/long etc, time zones. Nothing that can't be learned or relearned. Why would you talk about drop out rates? Don't you want to do it?

9) Not exactly something you need to worry about is it? You just go with the flow. They send you to ground school for the type they want you to fly then you do the sim training and the test. You do all the ground courses you need like CRM, Dangerous goods, wet drills in the pool, safety equipment, firefighting etc... and then you start flying your line training...

10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.

The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?

90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.

For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.

Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.

All I can say is wow, didn't expect such high quality, in depth responses, thank you so much everyone.
Still have a few nagging questions though:

1) To put it simply why does integrated...exist? In a perfect world, you would think people would go for the cheapest and most flexible option leaving integrated courses deserted, but the opposite seems to be true. Is it just the whiff of a possible advantage when applying for jobs or is there something more I'm missing?

2) In terms of dual licensing, how would this work when undertaking a modular course, two sets of exams for each stage or some kind of different arrangement?

3) Somewhat related to the second question, how would working for an EU airline work when being based in the UK? Do the likes of RYR have their EI registered aircraft based at let's say STN for EASA licensed crew?

4) For the "downwards creditable" exams part rudestuff talked about, does that essentially mean you do the ATPL exams first and then that's a "get out of jail free card" for the CPL and IR ones?

p.s - I'm not sure if I'm doing the whole quote/reply thing correctly so if it turns into a complete mess, apologies.

[sudden twang]

[QUOTE=sudden twang;11471947]

Not sure why you're rolling your eyes, I've seen more than a few comments from people in their 50s & 60s asking if they'd be eligible.. so perhaps it's them you're rolling your eyes at?

I just thought it was a bit pedantic. There has to be an age limit for obvious reasons.

I know of someone who was a year too young for Hamble and then a year too old for Prestwick.

BA did set up the Intermediary Entry Pilot scheme which catered for those caught out.

The point I was making was that there is now opportunity for many many more people than previously and I applaud that.

Keeping to the thread the prospects for getting a job as a pilot have improved significantly for all, zero experience, modular or white tail integrated.

[Angle_of_Attack]

[QUOTE=Angle_of_Attack;11472058]

I just thought it was a bit pedantic. There has to be an age limit for obvious reasons.

I know of someone who was a year too young for Hamble and then a year too old for Prestwick.

BA did set up the Intermediary Entry Pilot scheme which catered for those caught out.

The point I was making was that there is now opportunity for many many more people than previously and I applaud that.

Keeping to the thread the prospects for getting a job as a pilot have improved significantly for all, zero experience, modular or white tail integrated.

I wasn't trying to be pedantic. If you look at the comments under the BA post on FB, you'll see quite a few people in their later years (one aged 72 even!) asking if they'd be eligible.. so I thought that the clarification would be important in case any of them were to come across this post.

I completely agree with you that it's fantastic the barrier for entry will be removed for people who would make great pilots but aren't financially able to achieve their licenses on their own!

[VariablePitchP]

All I can say is wow, didn't expect such high quality, in depth responses, thank you so much everyone.
Still have a few nagging questions though:

1) To put it simply why does integrated...exist? In a perfect world, you would think people would go for the cheapest and most flexible option leaving integrated courses deserted, but the opposite seems to be true. Is it just the whiff of a possible advantage when applying for jobs or is there something more I'm missing?

2) In terms of dual licensing, how would this work when undertaking a modular course, two sets of exams for each stage or some kind of different arrangement?

3) Somewhat related to the second question, how would working for an EU airline work when being based in the UK? Do the likes of RYR have their EI registered aircraft based at let's say STN for EASA licensed crew?

4) For the "downwards creditable" exams part rudestuff talked about, does that essentially mean you do the ATPL exams first and then that's a "get out of jail free card" for the CPL and IR ones?

p.s - I'm not sure if I'm doing the whole quote/reply thing correctly so if it turns into a complete mess, apologies.

Can only answer the first question really. Advertising. Plain and simple. They sell a dream with fancy marketing and pictures of models sitting on wings wearing lots of fancy gold bars on their shoulders. It’s all fluff. Money making sausage factories. But if you’re 18 and Mummy and Daddy have a bucket load of cash, doesn’t really matter does it. First thing that pops up will be integrated, job done.

[CaptSackJarrow]

CaptSackJarrow,

By 'MPL' do you mean that you need to specifically train at a flight school which is tied to Easyjet (therefore you can only fly for them once you complete training)? I've looked at both CAE and L3 and while it does seem very commercial and robotic I'm sure it has its upsides. Most of the Easyjet pilots I've talked to have mentioned going to L3 on an integrated course. Thanks for your help.

Apologies for the late reply. Pretty much, A MPL is a training programme sponsored by an airline with a contract of employment upon completion, but to only work for them (until unfrozen ATPL). Yes, the majority EJ pilots I know were L3 / CAE however, there is still many other airlines that are not affiliated and tend to prefer modular students. As a modular student myself, net work net work and net work, its like every job, the more people who can vouch for your character the better.

Keep going and best of luck!

[alexeyAP]

All I can say is wow, didn't expect such high quality, in depth responses, thank you so much everyone.
Still have a few nagging questions though:

1) To put it simply why does integrated...exist? In a perfect world, you would think people would go for the cheapest and most flexible option leaving integrated courses deserted, but the opposite seems to be true. Is it just the whiff of a possible advantage when applying for jobs or is there something more I'm missing?

2) In terms of dual licensing, how would this work when undertaking a modular course, two sets of exams for each stage or some kind of different arrangement?

3) Somewhat related to the second question, how would working for an EU airline work when being based in the UK? Do the likes of RYR have their EI registered aircraft based at let's say STN for EASA licensed crew?

4) For the "downwards creditable" exams part rudestuff talked about, does that essentially mean you do the ATPL exams first and then that's a "get out of jail free card" for the CPL and IR ones?

p.s - I'm not sure if I'm doing the whole quote/reply thing correctly so if it turns into a complete mess, apologies.
Get used to the quality, much more honest here than what you'll find elsewhere on the internet :)
Regarding no. 2, Alex replied to me above with this:
The dual licence can be obtained for the extra cost of (i) an additional EASA Class 1 medical (ii) licence issue fees from your chosen EASA State and (iii) an additional set of ATPL exam fees. Overall I would guess about £1500 to £2000. It is possible to conduct the professional elements of your training at Modular ATOs who carry dual approval - one course two ticks - and also get your CPL and IR flight tests examined by dual qualified examiners - one test two ticks. Not all modular ATOs can arrange this, some have a surcharge to, for instance, fly to Ireland and take a test there, but it can be done.
​​​​​​​Hope this helps.

[alexeyAP]

Apologies for the late reply. Pretty much, A MPL is a training programme sponsored by an airline with a contract of employment upon completion, but to only work for them (until unfrozen ATPL). Yes, the majority EJ pilots I know were L3 / CAE however, there is still many other airlines that are not affiliated and tend to prefer modular students. As a modular student myself, net work net work and net work, its like every job, the more people who can vouch for your character the better.

Keep going and best of luck!
No worries, thanks for the info, I am sure that there are many modular ATOs in the UK nowadays who have good links with airlines. Good luck with your studies also, maybe one day we'll see each other in the cockpit :ok:, take care.

[Adi4454]

Hi everyone new to this forum I’ve been reading alot of the advice put on here. Especially rudestuff i like the way you have been explaining this whole Modular process however I do have a few questions hopefully you can answer them(along with anyone else)

1. Starting with the PPL. Would you reccomend doing this as one lesson a week with a full time work from home job or would you reccomend saving the whole amount and then doing it all in one go. Would you reccomend getting my PPL here, the states or Europe? I am a British National no other nationalities.

2. I see rudestuff you are saying take out a loan possibly to fund the last half of the training, MEIR/CPL. how feasible is this? How likely is it we even get a job after completing the Modular route? And what happens if we don’t get a job. The ratings need to be kept valid im guessing? And how much would that cost.

this is the plan I’ve built in my head which I’ll probably be starting next month

just for reference I just turned 19 years old my income from my main job is 1600 a month after taxes and then I do side jobs which bump it up to about 1900 a month my expenses are about 500 a month so I can comfortably afford 5 £200 flight lessons a month

PPL - once a week until I complete it.

then start my hour building one hour a week may even be 1 hour every two weeks just so I can save and fund atleast a bit of my later training during this I will study for ATPL exams distance learning. Once I’ve got a bit of money saved and maybe found some holiday time I can go and cheaply hour build in the states for cheap until 50 hrs XC, self fund the SEIR and then hour building to 175 and then go the other half maybe my a loan maybe by my own cash who knows.

what are the chances of getting a job at the end of spending upwards of £60k it is a very big amount and my family think I am absolutely nuts for not going to university and choosing this route I am pretty much working like a dog at this point 14 hour shifts a day 6-7 days a week. But hopefully it pays off in the end if not atleast I can tell all my friends i can fly a plane haha

[hobbit1983]

Save up the whole amount and do the PPL in one go, if possible. The odds of getting a lesson cancelled due to weather is rather high in the UK. f you fly once a week, then you will certainly have big gaps. This means redoing stuff that's rusty on the next lesson, which costs more overall.

At one lesson a week, it's probable you'll end up with two or three lessons cancelled in a row at some point, more than once. That's four weeks between lessons.

If you save up and do it one go, you'll spend less overall as you'll have better continuity. Same applies to hour building; no instructor, but clubs schools etc often have currency rules. I.e. must have flown within last 28 days, or check with FI.

Odds of getting a job when you qualify? Hard to predict where the economy will be then. Who knows. You may have lengthy delays after training before landing that first job.

[deltahotel]

Broken record here. Unless you’d be happy just with a ppl, don’t spend a single £ on flying until you have a Class 1.

[Iflyplainplanes]

Been through it didn’t get a job - moved on with life.

my advice - don’t do it

If you decide to anyway; get some other skills first do something a bit different first get some money behind you.

if you are willing to spend your own money you will probably be able to keep at it.

easyjet et al only recruit newbies from their ATOs if you want to get straight in with them and others that have a similar set up go integrated.

modular etc is fine but never expect to join an airline - yes it might but you should plan to be an instructor and content on being that way for a good portion of your prime years where you would be developing in another career.

[rudestuff]

Take everything with a pinch of salt. Not everyone has the ability, aptitude or perseverance to become a professional pilot. Someone has to come bottom of the class or get straight 75s in their ATPLs. There are plenty of people that probably shouldn't be in an airliner but are because they bought themselves a licence and got lucky. It's a spectrum. Be at the other end of it.
Remember also it's a cyclical business; a lot of people miss-time it, miss the wave then give up because they can't wait for the next one. Right now it's the perfect time to start paddling, but be quick.

[VariablePitchP]

Been through it didn’t get a job - moved on with life.

my advice - don’t do it

If you decide to anyway; get some other skills first do something a bit different first get some money behind you.

if you are willing to spend your own money you will probably be able to keep at it.

easyjet et al only recruit newbies from their ATOs if you want to get straight in with them and others that have a similar set up go integrated.

modular etc is fine but never expect to join an airline - yes it might but you should plan to be an instructor and content on being that way for a good portion of your prime years where you would be developing in another career.

Rubbish. You got your licence close to the 15 years ago in a completely different environment. As has been said, not everyone has the aptitude to actually be a pilot.

If you come out of Modular training there are options everywhere. BA, TUI, Loganair etc etc. and those are just the advertised ones, that’s not including instruction jobs, pilot apprentice schemes etc etc. I get why you’re bitter, but don’t try and project that onto people in a totally different scenario to you.

The getting other experience first, complete waste of time and money. Spend five years learning to be an accountant. Why? For the 12 months where you might be waiting for a job. Great, you’ve just bought £50K of student debt and 5 less years making £150-200K as a training captain at the top of your career.

There are thousands of Modular airline pilots in the uk alone. At some point you need to let it go mate.

[rudestuff]

I couldn't have said it better 👆

[flying.gnome]

Take everything with a pinch of salt. Not everyone has the ability, aptitude or perseverance to become a professional pilot. Someone has to come bottom of the class or get straight 75s in their ATPLs. There are plenty of people that probably shouldn't be in an airliner but are because they bought themselves a licence and got lucky. It's a spectrum. Be at the other end of it.
Remember also it's a cyclical business; a lot of people miss-time it, miss the wave then give up because they can't wait for the next one. Right now it's the perfect time to start paddling, but be quick.
Rudestuff I wish I would have came across your posts a lot earlier! Learned so much already from a handful of your posts.

As someone who is ready to embark on the PPL journey - I am realising having an aircraft free to book, along with a flight instructor, at the weekends (I work mon-fri), at my local flying club is a lot more challenging than anticipated and its not going to be as simple as completing a weekly lesson with them. So I'm beginning to look elsewhere and I noticed you mentioned USA, specifically Florida, to complete PPL - have you any suggestions of flying clubs/schools in the USA that I could research. Thanks in advance

[rudestuff]

Thanks! I try to help or at least be sarcastic. Unfortunately it's been a decade plus since I trained in the US. Flight schools come and go so unfortunately you're on your own but I'm sure there are others who can chip in with some recommendations. The main advantage with Florida (or CA/AZ etc) is the weather. By having 99% of days flyable, you can book in advance and know that you won't be sat looking out of a rainy window, and then fighting others for slots on sunny days. If you turn up on day 1 with all the knowledge squared away, you can concentrate on flying and a 3 week PPL becomes very achievable at 2hrs per day.

[flying.gnome]

Thanks! I try to help or at least be sarcastic. Unfortunately it's been a decade plus since I trained in the US. Flight schools come and go so unfortunately you're on your own but I'm sure there are others who can chip in with some recommendations. The main advantage with Florida (or CA/AZ etc) is the weather. By having 99% of days flyable, you can book in advance and know that you won't be sat looking out of a rainy window, and then fighting others for slots on sunny days. If you turn up on day 1 with all the knowledge squared away, you can concentrate on flying and a 3 week PPL becomes very achievable at 2hrs per day.
Much appreciated for the feedback. Hopefully others can recommend some flight schools/club in better weather areas such as Florida/Spain!

When you say 'turning up with all the knowledge squared away' I'm assuming you mean the exam side of things here? Would you recommended going ahead and starting the learning and booking the exams now? And are the Air Pilot Manuals all you need for this? I noticed Bristol Ground School have an online distance learning PPL theory course but as its quite new I haven't seen much recommendations on it