Australian Airline Pilot: Respected Profession or 'Noose around your Neck'

[RealSatoshi]

Over the course of several years, Australia has witnessed a gradual decline in pilot wages and quality of life, leading to significant concerns and discussions within the aviation industry - albeit not in the corporate C Suites.

Today, pilots in Australia are facing an even more challenging environment characterised by stagnant or declining incomes in the face of record corporate profits, prompting debates about the sustainability of the profession and its potential long-term implications. The ongoing discussion surrounding pilot wages reflect the complex interplay between market forces, industry dynamics, corporate greed and the aspirations of those who play a crucial role in ensuring safe and efficient air travel across the country and abroad.

As expected, the ATO just released a scathing insight into the state of the profession while releasing their 2020-2021 % Payrise data: ‘Noose around your neck’: ATO data reveals Australian jobs with the biggest pay rises (https://www.news.com.au/finance/economy/australian-economy/noose-around-your-neck-ato-data-reveals-australian-jobs-with-the-biggest-pay-rises/news-story/09d6624fb1487cea09bc510768ecc931)

"But if you’re a pilot (19 per cent pay cut) or a cleaner (0.5 per cent pay cut), your situation is much worse. The rising price of rent, groceries and fuel probably feel like a noose around your neck."
"Pilots and aircraft mechanics had a shocking year because of course the airline industry was profoundly disrupted by Covid lockdowns."
"Sportspeople also had a bad year, accepting Covid-driven pay cuts. They have bounced back since, while some other types of jobs are in more of a long-term downward spiral."
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Covid was especially tough on the airline industry worldwide, but as noticed from our peers, they are all catching up now with most exceeding where they would've been - this as they get to share in the successes and prosperity of the airlines they work for. Some will say it is market forces, but most operators in Australia, except for Qantas mainline, are already looking outside our borders to fill operating seats.

The US majors are signing significant multi-year Pilot Annual Pay Increases, this while they themselves are not (yet) recruiting from outside their borders - the smaller airlines and regionals are already doing this yes.
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With EBA's currently under negotiation and others soon to be commenced, it is prudent to understand the state of play here - Is it financial survival or mere corporate (read C Suite) greed, this while simultaneously destroying the most regulated profession in the world.

To answer this, let's compare the financial situation of some of those US airlines listed above to those closer to home - then decide for yourself if your profession is respected, or a 'Noose around your Neck' as the article infers.

Net Income: The amount an individual or business makes after deducting costs, allowances and taxes. Net income is what the business has left over after all expenses, including salary and wages, cost of goods or raw material and taxes.

Forecasted Figures 2023
American Airlines: Revenue 52.7bn USD vs Net Income 1.89bn USD = Net Profit Margin 3.59%
United Airlines: Revenue 52.7bn USD vs Net Income 2.98bn USD = Net Profit Margin 5.65%
Delta Airlines: Revenue 54.4bn USD vs 3.27bn USD = Net Profit Margin 6.01%
Southwest Airlines: Revenue 26.6bn USD vs Net Income 1.70bn USD = Net Profit Margin 6.39%
Air New Zealand: Revenue 6.34bn NZD vs Net Income 426mn NZD = Net Profit Margin 6.72%

Qantas Airways*: Revenue 19.6bn AUD vs Net Income 1.72bn AUD = Net Profit Margin 8.78%
(*) Figures not updated for the 2.48bn AUD revised Net Income as reported


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[Icarus2001]

If the world can manage another 18-24 months without a SARS-GFC-Bird Flu-Covid event then the pilot profession will really have the upper hand. If we decide to take advantage of it. Whilst there are airlines in Australia that do not supply crew meals, whilst EBAs are sometimes a decade old, then management is still taking a liberty. Show them how you feel at EBA time ladies and gents.

[Ladloy]

It's as easy as not screwing those below you. Bringing up the lowest paid pilot sets the benchmark for everyone.

[A320 Flyer]

It's as easy as not screwing those below you. Bringing up the lowest paid pilot sets the benchmark for everyone.

It should be about ridding the industry of bin chicken airlines and getting every one of those deserving pilots working on the best conditions available….. then hammering some serious, overdue increases to those EBAs

[dragon man]

Two EAs voted up by 80% plus of pilots, all self inflicted.

[RHLMcG]

Over the course of several years, Australia has witnessed a gradual decline in pilot wages and quality of life

I think you are not standing back quite far enough. Things were not all that bad up until around the late 80s, although the Ansett amalgamation didn't help out promotion prospects for some time.

Abeles, Murdoch and Turbo Bowtie led the charge to eventual oblivion.

It has been all downhill since then. Unless, and until, the pilot group stands united, things are not going to improve to any extent. Is that likely to happen ? I suspect not anytime soon.

[cLeArIcE]

We can all whinge about Joyce and Co and the attitude towards the work force and lack of respect for the profession etc (I'm the worst culprit of this) but can you really blame them?
My question is what have we done to demand better? No one hands you respect you need to take it.

1.Sick of horrible rosters? How many times do you say "**** it, it's my kids birthday and you didn't give me the day off I'm going to call in sick anyway."
2. Scheduling to the limit with an expectation that you'll extend to get the job done. Do you say "We are fully boarded but no, I'm not extending I'm getting Off"
3. ****ty scheduling, hotels, meals, paxing in cattle class middle seats. How often do you go fatigued because of this?
4. PIA? At least JQ did it, but didn't follow through quick enough then COVID etc. Then for some reason we rolled over after covid. QF whinge about network etc, when was the last time you did anything about it? Ties and PAs don't count.
5. Network pilots doing days off for $$ that wouldn't get most people out Of bed etc and so many more examples...

The problem has always been if you don't bend over and take it someone else will. Perhaps finally there is a chance that the pool to choose from is emptying... But will we still roll over for a smacko and a belly rub? My guess is we probably will.
No one gets what they deserve in this world. You get what
​​​​​​you take. There is no room for weakness and for a bunch of fairly intelligent people, we are weak as ****.

[ArthurSlugworth]

I think you are not standing back quite far enough. Things were not all that bad up until around the late 80s, although the Ansett amalgamation didn't help out promotion prospects for some time.

Abeles, Murdoch and Turbo Bowtie led the charge to eventual oblivion.

It has been all downhill since then. Unless, and until, the pilot group stands united, things are not going to improve to any extent. Is that likely to happen ? I suspect not anytime soon.

I'm not so pessimistic, based on the discussions I've had with my colleagues, most are assertive about taking control of our future rather than resigning themselves to the continued decay of our terms and conditions.

[Uplinker]

"We" have to become stronger via our unions, and we have to actually vote for and take action. When I asked my colleagues (UK) why we didn't take a stand against working on Christmas day, my own colleagues were not interested and just told me it was what I had signed up for. Unbelievable.

If we don't fight and stand up for ourselves, the bosses will continue to walk all over us. They already have us paying for our own training and our initial type ratings - some even make their crews pay for their recurrent Sim tests and uniforms.

Look at UK train drivers - strong unions, strong member support, good Ts & Cs. Even (UK) truck drivers have better working balance than pilots, and the truck drivers have tachometers to check they are sticking to their correct breaks and schedules etc.

Nobody is going to suddenly improve our airline Ts & Cs except us.

[maverick4442]

I wonder if the American Pilots think of Australians as Bin Chickens!
Narrow body 475k and Wide Body 575k USD Captain figures posted with the new agreements compared to what we work for.
Comments apparently floating around- “Resign and go to America”, “The industry is different in America”, “We live in Australia not America” “You can Get let go if times get tough”, “ You cannot compare the salary in America to Australia”
IMHO with that sort of mentality Australia will continue to be a race to the bottom….
End of the day you always have a choice to Vote YES or NO with a agreement.
Look at the figures posted above with how far behind we are when you next think about voting in an agreement. :ugh:

[beamer]

Anyone else who didn’t go into the ‘profession’ for the money ?

[josephfeatherweight]

beamer, you’re welcome to get flogged for below par pay, but I’d like to enjoy my job AND be remunerated according to my skill and expertise. As I am only an average pilot, I worked VERY hard to get where I did and spent a lot of money on training (pre-employment) to get where I am now.
PS I’m surprised tail wheel “liked” your comment.

[C441]

…...but I’d like to enjoy my job AND be remunerated according to my skill and expertise.
…..and responsibility.

[PoppaJo]

But will we still roll over for a smacko and a belly rub? My guess is we probably will.
You bet we will.

Good old Oz. We all vote up these pissy agreements, then many just bitch and moan about the conditions for the coming years.

Team Virgin, balls in your court, how about you show everyone how it’s done. For a start, old base pay needs to be reinstated, that’s a given. Absolute non negotiable that one. I wouldn’t be accepting anything less than that plus 20%. But you will probably cave in at current base pay plus 3%. Happy to be proven wrong, although I’ve given up attempting to be proven wrong lately.

[Red69]

You bet we will.

Good old Oz. We all vote up these pissy agreements, then many just bitch and moan about the conditions for the coming years.

Team Virgin, balls in your court, how about you show everyone how it’s done. For a start, old base pay needs to be reinstated, that’s a given. Absolute non negotiable that one. I wouldn’t be accepting anything less than that plus 20%. But you will probably cave in at current base pay plus 3%. Happy to be proven wrong, although I’ve given up attempting to be proven wrong lately.

The engineers have the right idea. They realise they're trying to sell an airline so PIA is going to hurt them. At least they all stand together and take action. Just hoping the pilots will too. There is nothing positive about working at Virgin. There is no respect for pilots, the T's and C's are the worst of the major airlines, there is no career progression and no help for the many many commuters who got burnt during COVID. The airline needs a proper seniority list, needs pilots in the base they want to be in and needs T and C's improve. Without that they will forever be a stepping stone airline. VA need to be aiming for QF pay, not JQ. It's the same fleet, same network, same operation. Why not the same pay and career progression?

[Lapon]

For the most part its the pilots that agreed to thier current conditions.
Individual reasoning or justification doesn't change the fact that you (collectively speaking) voted in favor of it.
In that regard I don't actaully blame airline management.

[dragon man]

For the most part its the pilots that agreed to thier current conditions.
Individual reasoning or justification doesn't change the fact that you (collectively speaking) voted in favor of it.
In that regard I don't actaully blame airline management.

EAs are a game of high stakes poker in the case of Qantas pilots they well and truly had their pants pulled down.

[megan]

I’m surprised tail wheel “liked” your commentbeamer is merely stating the facts, I've never come across a pilot who took up the business because of the money on offer, no surprise that tail wheel liked the post, as do I.

[neville_nobody]

The airline needs a proper seniority list, needs pilots in the base they want to be in and needs T and C's improve. Without that they will forever be a stepping stone airline. VA need to be aiming for QF pay, not JQ. It's the same fleet, same network, same operation. Why not the same pay and career progression?

What if the owners are happy to be a ‘stepping stone’ airline and just argue if you want QF pay go work for QF? What then?

[No Idea Either]

What if the owners are happy to be a ‘stepping stone’ airline and just argue if you want QF pay go work for QF? What then?

PIA at the next EBA, that’s what!!!!

[maverick4442]

beamer is merely stating the facts, I've never come across a pilot who took up the business because of the money on offer, no surprise that tail wheel liked the post, as do I.

Absolute race to the bottom comment.

Have some respect for what we do day in day out I did not get into this Industry for conditions/pay to be on the decline.
I am sure others would agree, yes we love the job but the remuneration also has to be competitive otherwise why even do what we do.

[ShandywithSugar]

We can all whinge about Joyce and Co and the attitude towards the work force and lack of respect for the profession etc (I'm the worst culprit of this) but can you really blame them?
My question is what have we done to demand better? No one hands you respect you need to take it.

1.Sick of horrible rosters? How many times do you say "**** it, it's my kids birthday and you didn't give me the day off I'm going to call in sick anyway."
2. Scheduling to the limit with an expectation that you'll extend to get the job done. Do you say "We are fully boarded but no, I'm not extending I'm getting Off"
3. ****ty scheduling, hotels, meals, paxing in cattle class middle seats. How often do you go fatigued because of this?
4. PIA? At least JQ did it, but didn't follow through quick enough then COVID etc. Then for some reason we rolled over after covid. QF whinge about network etc, when was the last time you did anything about it? Ties and PAs don't count.
5. Network pilots doing days off for $$ that wouldn't get most people out Of bed etc and so many more examples...

The problem has always been if you don't bend over and take it someone else will. Perhaps finally there is a chance that the pool to choose from is emptying... But will we still roll over for a smacko and a belly rub? My guess is we probably will.
No one gets what they deserve in this world. You get what
​​​​​​you take. There is no room for weakness and for a bunch of fairly intelligent people, we are weak as ****.

For clarity Network was purchased in Feburary 2011 and PIA for LH started in November. A rather long bow to draw. I dare suggest there won't be ties and PAs next time.

[neville_nobody]

PIA at the next EBA, that’s what!!!!

And that is the problem for pilots you are then backed into a corner. The company may then also get PIA blocked legally. You only have to look at what QF have done at a IR level to know it is not as simple as PIA. You may even get locked out before it goes to PIA just as QF did for something as benign as wearing the wrong tie.

In some ways you are better off just sticking strictly to the contract and letting it all burn down around you as eventually the owners will then be forced to do something as all the customers start leaving because you are unreliable. However that requires pilots not to go above and beyond to save the day. Unfortunately that too can ultimately become a pyrrhic victory.

[megan]

Absolute race to the bottom comment.

Have some respect for what we do day in day out I did not get into this Industry for conditions/pay to be on the decline.
I am sure others would agree, yes we love the job but the remuneration also has to be competitive otherwise why even do what we doSo why are you voting EBA's up that don't give what you want? The ball is in your court, grow a spine rather than bleat.

[PoppaJo]

The engineers have the right idea. They realise they're trying to sell an airline so PIA is going to hurt them. At least they all stand together and take action. Just hoping the pilots will too. There is nothing positive about working at Virgin. There is no respect for pilots, the T's and C's are the worst of the major airlines, there is no career progression and no help for the many many commuters who got burnt during COVID. The airline needs a proper seniority list, needs pilots in the base they want to be in and needs T and C's improve. Without that they will forever be a stepping stone airline. VA need to be aiming for QF pay, not JQ. It's the same fleet, same network, same operation. Why not the same pay and career progression?
Yes. Don’t forget the CEO is expected to cash in up to $70m on her exit. Wouldn’t have happened without the VA front line teams. Stand up for yourself FFS.

[Captn Rex Havack]

So one guy thinks because its his son's birthday he is entitled to a day off. Another says he is entitled to christmas day off? in a 24/7 industry??? Really.. What about doctor's nurses, train drivers, and everyone working those days.....what makes you so special.

[morno]

So one guy thinks because its his son's birthday he is entitled to a day off. Another says he is entitled to christmas day off? in a 24/7 industry??? Really.. What about doctor's nurses, train drivers, and everyone working those days.....what makes you so special.

The fact that they get penalties to do it

[megan]

The fact that they get penalties to do itBecause they're on hourly rates of pay, not a salary, apples and oranges. Hourly rate can have its benefits, once earned 48 hours pay per day as an apprentice electrician while doing sea trials on a new ship, ostensibly on duty 24 hours per day which made it double time, then became a pilot on a salary Ggggrrrr. :{ :p

[Red69]

So one guy thinks because its his son's birthday he is entitled to a day off. Another says he is entitled to christmas day off? in a 24/7 industry??? Really.. What about doctor's nurses, train drivers, and everyone working those days.....what makes you so special.

This attitude right here is what is wrong with pilots and our EBA’s. While office workers get the flexibility to wfh, take annual leave when they want, sleep in their own bed when they want, get job security and get consistent pay rises, your clinging on to the some old school belief that we should still be sacrificing our most important family events for a company that would get rid of us at the blink of an eye?

Every other worker has achieved greater flexibility and terms and conditions during COVID except for pilots. Yet you still expect us to be a charity with our dwindling terms and conditions for a company whose executives are some of the highest paid in the country?

Once upon a time a pilot could run a single income household where the partner could look after the family. With our current terms and conditions, that’s no longer possible. So yes, I will take off the important days to see my family/wife/kids unless I am given an incentive to do so otherwise.

[maverick4442]

So why are you voting EBA's up that don't give what you want? The ball is in your court, grow a spine rather than bleat.

Think it time for you to go to Specsavers Megan,
read your above comment supporting we did not get into aviation because of the money.

Maybe you are happy working for an unattractive contract but many others are not.

As for signing in rubbish agreements I have never voted Yes to one I think is rubbish.
Maybe you should grow a spine and try for a better contract rather than “not getting into aviation for the money”

[megan]

some old school belief that we should still be sacrificing our most important family eventsLot of workers miss important family events, companys where 24 hour production is required eg steel works, mining, I was engaged in an industry where two weeks away from home was the norm then two weeks off, someone had to work Xmas, depending on the luck of the draw you might miss the important family events eg sports days, birth days etc etc. One thing the modern crop of pilots seem to know how to do is bleat.

[maverick4442]

Lot of workers miss important family events, companys where 24 hour production is required eg steel works, mining, I was engaged in an industry where two weeks away from home was the norm then two weeks off, someone had to work Xmas, depending on the luck of the draw you might miss the important family events eg sports days, birth days etc etc. One thing the modern crop of pilots seem to know how to do is bleat.

Great Story Megan!
Would have been better if you stayed in your previous profession because all you do is try and justify the pineapple Pilots have taken is justified.

The modern crop of Pilots seem to have realised conditions and pay have to get better otherwise what is the point!

[Red69]

Lot of workers miss important family events, companys where 24 hour production is required eg steel works, mining, I was engaged in an industry where two weeks away from home was the norm then two weeks off, someone had to work Xmas, depending on the luck of the draw you might miss the important family events eg sports days, birth days etc etc. One thing the modern crop of pilots seem to know how to do is bleat.

Yep but those professions have stability and UPWARDS pressure on terms and conditions. Mining pay, rosters and living conditions have continually improved. They also have job security and and can move jobs freely without worrying about seniority. Pilots also have a lot more responsibility and the profession involves a hell of a lot more investment and sacrifice. It’s time to be paid appropriately otherwise this industry will continue to suffer.

[maverick4442]

Yep but those professions have stability and UPWARDS pressure on terms and conditions. Mining pay, rosters and living conditions have continually improved. They also have job security and and can move jobs freely without worrying about seniority. Pilots also have a lot more responsibility and the profession involves a hell of a lot more investment and sacrifice. It’s time to be paid appropriately otherwise this industry will continue to suffer.

Could not agree more!

[Break Right]

Megan is an office stooge. Ignore her.

[soseg]

Think it time for you to go to Specsavers Megan,
read your above comment supporting we did not get into aviation because of the money.

Maybe you are happy working for an unattractive contract but many others are not.

As for signing in rubbish agreements I have never voted Yes to one I think is rubbish.
Maybe you should grow a spine and try for a better contract rather than “not getting into aviation for the money”

Women. Far too agreeable and too scared to stick up for what they're worth. Then they cry poor when men out earn them in industries where you have the ability to negotiate your Ts & Cs.

[RealSatoshi]

Yet you still expect us to be a charity with our dwindling terms and conditions for a company whose executives are some of the highest paid in the country?

...try replacing country with most of the world :}

Whenever you're told that you're not worth more...remember this:

2021 CEO Total Compensation (USD) as a function of Company Market Cap
0.0787% ----> Qantas : $5.577 Million @ $7.089 Billion Market Cap

0.0780% ----> American Airlines : $7.24 Million @ $9.287 Billion Market Cap
0.0729% ----> United Airlines : $9.85 Million @ $13.52 Billion Market Cap
0.0583% ----> Alaska Airlines : $3.21 Million @ $5.506 Billion Market Cap
0.0570% ----> Delta Airlines : $12.4 Million @ $21.74 Billion Market Cap
0.0282% ----> Southwest : $5.8 Million @ $20.54 Billion Market Cap

0.0040% ----> Apple : $98 Million @ $2.448 Trillion Market Cap
0.0027% ----> Microsoft : $49.858 Million @ $1.869 Trillion Market Cap
0.0005% ----> Google : $6.32 Million @ $1.365 Trillion Market Cap

[megan]

Would have been better if you stayed in your previous profession because all you do is try and justify the pineapple Pilots have taken is justifiedIf your pilots are being fed pineapple it's because they seem to like the diet, it's they who vote the EBA. Our little group of pilots were under the AFAP until the union threatened to have Norm Gallagher of the BLF and his mates come sort us out (todays pilots probably too young to remember him and his union). Following the threat we dumped the AFAP and formed our own union, since all the negotiation with the company was by us anyway, the AFAP was just a rubber stamp to have what we had agreed with the company to be ratified.

[First_Principal]

Megan is an office stooge. Ignore her.

You might want to review this somewhat incautious comment; take look at megan's contribution here (and elsewhere)...

... and while reasonable payment for your expertise is important I also appreciate those who simply do their work well out of pride, honour, and sense of duty, not just for maximum $$. I suspect that, apart from the sheer enjoyment of it, this is something megan, beamer and tailwheel may have in common.

It probably takes a few years to understand, and some may never get it, but rewards are not always monetary.

FP.

[43Inches]

Unions are fairly useless without a large member base. After all that is what a Union is all about, the massed power of the workforce united vs the financial power of the corporation/company. With mass membership the union can provide legal power that equals what a corporation can muster. It is better to have a few very large unions with each company having it's own representation vs it's company than having 50 small disjointed unions for an industry sector. I think pilots forget that it is the internal pilot committees that should be deciding what is required from the company in industrial negotiations. The union just provides the finance/muscle to make it happen. Companies can pretend to negotiate with smaller groups because they are easier to manipulate over the long term, so they seemingly get their way, but could have achieved a lot more if the industry as a whole had proper representation.

Australian pilot wages and conditions directly reflect the fact that the union movement here is poor and misunderstood. Most people are brainwashed into thinking unions are militant and no good, and only a company based union will give you what you want... Just like believing individual negotiation leads to better wages... The Libs got you good....

[cLeArIcE]

So one guy thinks because its his son's birthday he is entitled to a day off. Another says he is entitled to christmas day off? in a 24/7 industry??? Really.. What about doctor's nurses, train drivers, and everyone working those days.....what makes you so special.
Yeah sorry but if i ask for one week day off in the whole month to have dinner with my son for his birthday (it's not Christmas or Easter) and you can't even grant me that one day off, you can shove it cause I wont be coming in.

[dragon man]

The reality IMO is we have gone to far from one direction (union power) to to far the other direction (company power). The share of profits for shareholders and especially the top management of most companies is obscene (think Alan Joyce and his $180 million for 14 years) then top it off with lack of social conscious regarding gouging due to market share and it’s out of control. To constantly provide productivity to get a pay rise to keep pace with inflation is ridiculous as you end up with no conditions ( sound familiar?).

[Icemansteeve]

8 AOC's, 8 divided pilot groups, one red tail.


When the largest and most desirable employer doesn't have to pay what's fairly owed, what hope is there for the rest of Australian aviation.

[maverick4442]

You might want to review this somewhat incautious comment; take look at megan's contribution here (and elsewhere)...

... and while reasonable payment for your expertise is important I also appreciate those who simply do their work well out of pride, honour, and sense of duty, not just for maximum $$. I suspect that, apart from the sheer enjoyment of it, this is something megan, beamer and tailwheel may have in common.

It probably takes a few years to understand, and some may never get it, but rewards are not always monetary.

FP.

What pay and conditions do you define as reasonable?
I’m pretty sure the pay and conditions in Australia are so far behind the going rate look at the figures posted at the start of this thread.

[43Inches]

7 AOC's, 7 divided pilot groups, one red tail.


When the largest and most desirable employer doesn't have to pay what's fairly owed, what hope is there for the rest of Australian aviation.

Exactly my point about having one large union, company based unions are owned by the company, they don't have the balls to challenge more than meal allowances and get a few % to just about cover CPI, as that's what the company wants. There will be a standoff for show between the company and it's pet union and then pretty much what the company wants goes through. Not saying the reps are in on it, no, but the company knows what level of unionism it can 'control' and tries to play that. In a perfect world the Union would not only represent all pilot bodies but share exactly what conditions are prevalent within each company so all pilots know exactly what is on offer at each employer. Obviously employers like Qantas would be staunchly against this as their aim is to whittle away conditions by separating pilot groups. If X group knows its package is worth $100k less the Z group and exactly why that is then people get angry, where at the moment we have to delve into the archives of EBAs and find out what the exact differences are.

The biggest thing the pilot body needs to learn is this, COMPANIES are competing against each other, the employees should NOT. COMPANIES should be competing for employees, NOT the other way around. COMPANIES are paying the employee to work for them to assist in generating revenue, the employee is working to generate livable income.

[Uplinker]

So one guy thinks because its his son's birthday he is entitled to a day off. Another says he is entitled to christmas day off? in a 24/7 industry??? Really.. What about doctor's nurses, train drivers, and everyone working those days.....what makes you so special.

Never said entitled, and never said special. Just asked why we had to.

And anyway, why shouldn't a father/mother be able to take a day off for their son's birthday?? How cruel are you exactly? Does the airline CEO - or any of the management - come into work at 0500 on Christmas Day, or on their birthday, or on their family member's birthday? No.......thought not.
As it is, we already fly weekends, bank holidays, birthdays, anniversaries etc, throughout the year for no extra benefit. Why should we also have to do that on that one special day as well, and deprive our young families of a normal family Christmas? Airlines own enough of our lives as it is.

Why are passenger holiday operations considered to be a "24/7 industry"?. Why does any holiday passenger actually need to fly on Christmas Day, (or Christmas Eve, or Boxing Day)? If the flights were not there, they would simply arrange to fly a few days before or after. I cannot remember the last time I had Christmas Day off.

As for being "special"? Nope, but neither are we a registered charity. We supply a service in return for money. Our terms and conditions of the job are a part of that, and workers have the legal right to maintain or improve their terms and conditions - because no-one else will.

[43Inches]

As it is, we already fly weekends, bank holidays, birthdays, anniversaries etc, throughout the year for no extra benefit.

Well there was extra benefit a long time ago, 2 extra weeks leave per year to offset public holidays and shift work. So it's not 'no extra', its just added long ago, similar to the shift workers monthly RDO. Pilots Remuneration is nothing special as it already just incorporates all the extras that inconvenience our lives. So taking that argument to industrial relations wont cut it and fair work would knock it back. What you have to demonstrate really for a pay rise is what has changed in the job, and extras that pilots suffer in the modern world that were never factored. That's if you want to claim extra income is 'required' otherwise the best way to get an increase in todays world is just make the company understand they are competing for YOU. Unfortunately the company will go to the media if you start saying 'poor me' on $100k+, no one will bat an eyelid, regardless of how hard your life is. Jane Doe working at woolies for $500 bucks a week is not going to be impressed that pilots ruined their Bali escape to send their kids to private school... It's way easier to just make sure the company has no pilots if they don't remunerate properly.

Wages are not going ballistic in the US because pilots are crying poor, they just wont work for you if you offer any less...

[PoppaJo]

43, they pulled that trick during the Jetstar PIA. You had Gareth Evans at each press conference making sure he mentioned the $330,000 per year widebody training captains made. Skimming socials after, the public then turned against the pilot body as expected, Gareth achieved the damage he wanted to cause, positioning these pilots as thieving pests. Meanwhile he departed off with his tens of millions.

[43Inches]

43, they pulled that trick during the Jetstar PIA. You had Gareth Evans at each press conference making sure he mentioned the $330,000 per year widebody training captains made. Skimming socials after, the public then turned against the pilot body as expected, Gareth achieved the damage he wanted to cause, positioning these pilots as thieving pests. Meanwhile he departed off with his tens of millions.

That's it, and they have used that in just about every QF group action for years. Hence why when it gets to industrial action it will get very little public support and eventually the company can pull the pin and lockout or call in the government to force essential services back to work.

What a company can't get away with is blaming pilots for leaving, and going to better jobs or staying away from certain operators because they offer ****e. Thats when the public will just say "PAY MORE YOU IDIOTS" and just fly with the operators that have reliable services due to having pilots, even if they are more expensive. After all they want to be assured they will get to where they are going regardless of the excuse.

The other change needed is the consumer law changed, so that when airlines cancel and disrupt the average persons life in Australia they need to be appropriately compensated. Then companies will pay more to ensure reliable services. Right now most EBAs allow an airline to just keep pilots working on delays, and passengers get nothing for their trouble. The airline wins both ways. Try that in Europe or the USA and the company is in for big costs to accommodate passengers and such.

Pilots could earn big brownie points by backing consumer law changes, so its clear we are on the passengers side, again something a large industry union could push for.

[Beer Baron]

4. PIA? At least JQ did it, but didn't follow through quick enough then COVID etc. Then for some reason we rolled over after covid. QF whinge about network etc, when was the last time you did anything about it? Ties and PAs don't count.
Don't count? Qantas didn’t think so, they locked us out and shut down the airline. The government didn’t think so, they canceled our PIA. FWC didn’t think so, they had to arbitrate a workplace determination for us.
Don’t try to rewrite history. Show me another airline PIA that stuck to their guns as long as mainline QF in the last 20 years?

[aussieflyboy]

So which airlines should we be encouraging people to avoid?

It seems that REX pilots are being paid the same as QLink pilots to fly an aircraft half the size so is QLink on the top of the Turbo-Prop “do not apply list.”

Obviously Qantas is at the top of the “do not apply list” internationally so who’s the top of the list domestically? Looks like the A220 pilots will be up there along with Jetstar and Network.

[dr dre]

As expected, the ATO just released a scathing insight into the state of the profession while releasing their 2020-2021



Yep - overall pilot pay went down by 2021 due stand downs, pay cuts, redundancies and forced onto contracts with lower T&Cs. No doubt about that. Companies took advantage of this environment to keep downward pressure on T&Cs as long as they could.

But since the middle of last year some unions have negotiated good deals for employee groups, JQ, EFA amongst others seem to have voted up their EAs without resorting to PIA. The always militant ALAEA agreed to a good deal without resorting to any serious industrial action. The feeling from other employee groups with EAs about to expire is that the IR landscape is in their favour for once and some big concessions can be achieved.

Now have a think why that is……

[megan]

Folk are talking about getting a day of importance off (birthday etc), reading the QF EBA I see you folk have three possible flex periods available per year, can you not use those, or is it too difficult to organise? One of the big impediments I see is how you folk are locked into the seniority system, the company knows they have you by the proverbial right there, in our industry upgrades eg to a trainer slot, were by volunteer and merit We ran a bidding book where folk could request particular days off and the roster was built around those requests, didn't always work out but that was extremely rare. It didn't mean you could write your own roster, just that important day you needed, school sports day, dentist, birthday etc You needed to work your share of Xmas's and that was not negotiable.

[cLeArIcE]

Folk are talking about getting a day of importance off (birthday etc), reading the QF EBA I see you folk have three possible flex periods available per year, can you not use those, or is it too difficult to organise? One of the big impediments I see is how you folk are locked into the seniority system, the company knows they have you by the proverbial right there, in our industry upgrades eg to a trainer slot, were by volunteer and merit We ran a bidding book where folk could request particular days off and the roster was built around those requests, didn't always work out but that was extremely rare. It didn't mean you could write your own roster, just that important day you needed, school sports day, dentist, birthday etc You needed to work your share of Xmas's and that was not negotiable.
I Can't speak for mainline, but ask any one star crew how often they get even 1 of their bids for days off. No wonder sick leave is enormous. Yet the clowns running the circus wonder why people are so angry.

[Talkwrench]

I Can't speak for mainline, but ask any one star crew how often they get even 1 of their bids for days off. No wonder sick leave is enormous. Yet the clowns running the circus wonder why people are so angry.
Do you guys know that the provisions of the National Employment Standards contained in the Fair Work Act regarding Public Holidays override whatever is written in Enterprise Agreements. It might be worth reading up on it. I believe these provisions have been recently tested in court too.

[ArthurSlugworth]

I Can't speak for mainline, but ask any one star crew how often they get even 1 of their bids for days off. No wonder sick leave is enormous. Yet the clowns running the circus wonder why people are so angry.

Spot on.

The company's bewilderment is just a facade ... they know. The doublespeak from our low-rent management just adds insult to the conditions we're working under.

[Chronic Snoozer]

https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/resources/nes-public-holidays.pdf

https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/bosses-must-ask-staff-before-rostering-to-work-public-holidays-court-20230329-p5cw5q (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/resources/nes-public-holidays.pdf)

[Clare Prop]

Women. Far too agreeable and too scared to stick up for what they're worth. Then they cry poor when men out earn them in industries where you have the ability to negotiate your Ts & Cs.
What a load of sexist rubbish

[dragon man]

As far as I know not one Qantas group pilots have secured any more than a two year wage freeze plus 3 years at 3% over a 5 year EA which equates to 1.8% per year. For the 12 months up to March inflation was 7%. On my maths that means you are going backwards once again. The engineers did far better using back door methods to get close to 30% for 5 years.

[ScepticalOptomist]

So one guy thinks because its his son's birthday he is entitled to a day off. Another says he is entitled to christmas day off? in a 24/7 industry??? Really.. What about doctor's nurses, train drivers, and everyone working those days.....what makes you so special.

They work those days for ADDITIONAL money on top of their usual pay. Not for the love or the duty.

[soseg]

Yep - overall pilot pay went down by 2021 due stand downs, pay cuts, redundancies and forced onto contracts with lower T&Cs. No doubt about that. Companies took advantage of this environment to keep downward pressure on T&Cs as long as they could.

But since the middle of last year some unions have negotiated good deals for employee groups, JQ, EFA amongst others seem to have voted up their EAs without resorting to PIA. The always militant ALAEA agreed to a good deal without resorting to any serious industrial action. The feeling from other employee groups with EAs about to expire is that the IR landscape is in their favour for once and some big concessions can be achieved.

Now have a think why that is……

Good deals?

You really are management.

They has the threat of tens of thousands in back pay being taken off them as a threat. The only big pay rises they got were things along the lines of, bottom yr1 FOs needed a significant pay rise to meet the award, therefore as FOs earns % of Captain wages, the captains went up proportionally.

[DirectAnywhere]

Anyone else who didn’t go into the ‘profession’ for the money ?

If money’s not important, why is management so keen to keep so much of it?

I tried going to the bank with my love of aviation and a thank you letter from management for extending and making a particularly lovely PA.

Weirdly, they didn’t give a sh!t.

I’m an employee, a number, a warm backside in a seat at pushback. “They” have made that clear.

I trade my time for their money. The aim is simply to give as little as possible of the first while maximising the second.

[Chris2303]

Yet the clowns running the circus wonder why people are so angry.

The clowns do not care!

[dr dre]

Good deals?

You really are management.

They has the threat of tens of thousands in back pay being taken off them as a threat. The only big pay rises they got were things along the lines of, bottom yr1 FOs needed a significant pay rise to meet the award, therefore as FOs earns % of Captain wages, the captains went up proportionally.

Sorry that’s not what my conversations with various employees who’ve indicated they’re happy with the deals on offer and voted on them without feeling under duress. The most surprising for me was the ALAEA. We all know they’re quite militant, and they had some minor behind the scenes PIA going, but they’ve signed off on a deal they’re seemingly quite happy with without resorting to stronger PIA.

There really has been a change in the landscape in the last 12 months.

[Beer Baron]

As far as I know not one Qantas group pilots have secured any more than a two year wage freeze plus 3 years at 3% over a 5 year EA which equates to 1.8% per year.
That’s not correct.

EFA pilots got a 5% all purpose allowance added to their pay which has no conditions and is perpetual. Equivalent to two missed 2.5% pay rises, bearing in mind the wage policy was 2% p/a at the time.
Jetstar got a 6% additional pay rise for all pilots as some would have fallen below the Award and not been BOOT compliant.
​​​​​​​Network haven’t signed a new EA yet, nor LH or SH.


So it doesn’t look like Qantas is having much luck forcing their ridiculous wages policy on Group pilots thus far.

[RealSatoshi]

I trade my time for their money.

Correct, like an evenly matched tug of war - not one where one side picks up all the slack while the other basks in the reward :=

Probably the most foreign concept to us Australians, is the notion of EA's based on CPI (+) adjustments. The C-Suite is fully aware of this and has for decades effectively used it to depress wages for the benefit of executives and shareholders alike.

YoY CPI is backward looking and thus a figure of 7.8% means that over the last 12 months you were already out of pocket by 7.8%. Let's assume you get a CPI based EA adjustment at 7.8%, that effectively means you are now where you should've been averaging for the previous 12 months, not the next... The next YoY CPI once again tells you where you fell short and thus allows for a readjustment to the mean. Even when EA's are based on YoY CPI adjustments, you are only playing catch-up and not moving ahead.

Now imagine CPI at 7.8% et al with 0% and then <0.5CPI adjustments stretched over multiple years = Financial (read lifestyle) suicide :\

If the unions got it right, EBA's would be CPI (guaranteed) increases year-on-year - not up for negotiation - with the CPI (+) portion negotiated in response to productivity improvements, EIS of new types and/or market forces.

Ensuring Fairness and Economic Stability: The Case for Wages to At Least Match Year-on-Year CPI
In an ever-changing economic landscape, it becomes crucial to maintain the financial well-being of workers and sustain a healthy economy. One approach that promotes fairness and stability is to ensure that wage increases at least match the year-on-year Consumer Price Index (CPI). By aligning wage adjustments with the rate of inflation, this practice safeguards workers' purchasing power and contributes to overall economic prosperity.

Preserving Purchasing Power: Wage increases that fall short of the CPI erode the purchasing power of workers over time. When the cost of living rises, stagnant wages put an increasing burden on individuals and their families. Basic necessities become more expensive, making it challenging to maintain the same standard of living. By linking wage increases to the CPI, employers acknowledge the importance of preserving the real value of wages, allowing employees to afford essential goods and services without undue financial strain.

Ensuring Economic Equity: A just society strives for equitable outcomes, where all individuals have the opportunity to thrive. Wage increases tied to the CPI contribute to this goal by preventing income disparities from widening due to inflation. When wages fail to keep up with rising prices, workers are disproportionately affected. By guaranteeing that wage increases at least match the CPI, society can mitigate the risk of deepening income inequality, fostering a more balanced and inclusive economic environment.

Sustaining Consumer Demand: The relationship between wages and consumer demand is vital for a thriving economy. When workers' incomes remain stagnant while prices increase, their ability to consume goods and services diminishes. This scenario could result in decreased demand, leading to adverse effects on businesses, employment rates, and economic growth. By ensuring that wage increases reflect the CPI, businesses can count on a reliable customer base, stimulating economic activity and maintaining a stable market.

Supporting Long-Term Planning: Consistency and predictability are essential for individuals and businesses when planning for the future. Linking wage increases to the CPI provides a clear framework for both employers and employees. It enables workers to anticipate and budget for rising living costs, empowering them to make informed financial decisions. Employers can also better plan their labor costs, avoiding abrupt adjustments that could disrupt business operations. This stability enhances productivity and fosters an environment conducive to sustained economic growth.

Conclusion: Matching wage increases with the year-on-year CPI is a prudent approach to ensure fairness, economic stability, and sustainable growth. By protecting workers' purchasing power, promoting economic equity, sustaining consumer demand, and supporting long-term planning, this practice creates a foundation for a more resilient and prosperous society. Recognizing the importance of aligning wage adjustments with the CPI enables us to safeguard the well-being of individuals, foster a thriving economy, and work towards a more equitable future.

It is time to rethink the game theory here...

[Uplinker]

The clowns do not care!

Correct. They know exactly what they're doing. They are running us as close to the bone as they can get away with - while awarding themselves huge bonuses and enormous pay packets. And patting each other on the back while regaling each other with their latest wheezes and triumphs, down at the exclusive millionaire's club, or in the marina.

And they really, truly don't care if individuals such as you or I are fed up, or if we resign. There is a long queue of hopefuls outside the door, each of whom has already paid for their own expensive training and type rating.

[aussieflyboy]

That’s not correct.

EFA pilots got a 5% all purpose allowance added to their pay which has no conditions and is perpetual. Equivalent to two missed 2.5% pay rises, bearing in mind the wage policy was 2% p/a at the time.
Jetstar got a 6% additional pay rise for all pilots as some would have fallen below the Award and not been BOOT compliant.
Network haven’t signed a new EA yet, nor LH or SH.


So it doesn’t look like Qantas is having much luck forcing their ridiculous wages policy on Group pilots thus far.

Looks like we have a winner for company to avoid at all costs then.

From what I’ve been told NJS Pilots voted up an EA with significantly worse conditions then what they had and will be operating an aircraft 20% bigger then what they currently operate. And for absolutely NO pay increase! How embarrassing!

[soseg]

Sorry that’s not what my conversations with various employees who’ve indicated they’re happy with the deals on offer and voted on them without feeling under duress. The most surprising for me was the ALAEA. We all know they’re quite militant, and they had some minor behind the scenes PIA going, but they’ve signed off on a deal they’re seemingly quite happy with without resorting to stronger PIA.

There really has been a change in the landscape in the last 12 months.

ALAEA, yes. Not the subsid pilots.

[soseg]

What a load of sexist rubbish

Not sexist. Stating a fact.

[lucille]

First off, credit to all who are battling to get better conditions. Problem is, management knows you won’t pack up and leave the profession. They’re confident that they can pay you even less and you’ll accept it because of your desire for the prestige of sitting in the front of a shiny jet.

All the employers have to do is be just competitive enough to make it not worth your while to jump ship to another airline and to this end they are aided by the seniority system. A two edged sword.

I was horrified to discover in another thread that a J42 F/O was paid $55K. How can anyone with a family live on that? A thousand bucks a week, before tax and rent for a two bedroom flat is what $600 a week?

Self evidently very few choose to become a pilot for the money.

[43Inches]

No one aims to be a J42FO or SAAB FO for more than a few years, same as instructing. While it would be nice for those low end jobs to be family freindly, the truth is they are now aimed at young, single people entering the industry. A prospective new pilot looks at what they could earn as a Captain on a jet for the large airlines and such. US airline job rates are getting good pay because you MUST have experience by law now, and that experience requirement means airlines have to compete for even entry level FOs.

[framer]

Problem is, management knows you won’t pack up and leave the profession
I hear ya and think you’re probably right overall. However, at 44 years old with no mortgage and starting to feel the effects of shift work, I am contemplating leaving the industry with 8 years narrow body command under my belt. I also know a few much more experienced Captains with probably 7 or 8 years of productive flying left in them that are thinking the same way. I think Covid made those of us in the second half of a career put more focus/ weight on our health and free time, it also made some of us realise that the heavy lifting of becoming financially independent has mostly been done and we could probably back off the income a bit and still pursue the travel and pass times we enjoy while avoiding the negative effects of shift work.
The sense I get is that the industry in Australia could probably bump along running the same schedules as they do today but any plans for an increase to that will probably be thwarted by lack of crew.
​​​​​​​US airline job rates are getting good pay because you MUST have experience by law now,
​​​​​​​100% correct.

[43Inches]

I hear ya and think you’re probably right overall. However, at 44 years old with no mortgage and starting to feel the effects of shift work, I am contemplating leaving the industry with 8 years narrow body command under my belt. I also know a few much more experienced Captains with probably 7 or 8 years of productive flying left in them that are thinking the same way. I think Covid made those of us in the second half of a career put more focus/ weight on our health and free time, it also made some of us realise that the heavy lifting of becoming financially independent has mostly been done and we could probably back off the income a bit and still pursue the travel and pass times we enjoy while avoiding the negative effects of shift work.
The sense I get is that the industry in Australia could probably bump along running the same schedules as they do today but any plans for an increase to that will probably be thwarted by lack of crew.

Many middle aged to older crew are feeling that way now, especially with the push for more money in exchange for more work. If you are smart with your money even on very low rates of pay you can be financially secure by your 40s, just don't waste money on cars and holidays, don't have kids, or at least don't fall fr the trap that kids need the best of everything. If they want long term employees like the old days they need to pay more money and reduce workload. That's just what airlines face now. It's more likely that the industry will recede to fit what they want to pay for pilots rather than expand and pay more, just the accountants mentality running large corporations these days.

[neville_nobody]

I think Covid made those of us in the second half of a career put more focus/ weight on our health and free time, it also made some of us realise that the heavy lifting of becoming financially independent has mostly been done and we could probably back off the income a bit and still pursue the travel and pass times we enjoy while avoiding the negative effects of shift work.

This appears to be a common theme amongst pilots I talk to about it. If I was in management I would be concerned about the change of attitude because noone even contemplated it prior to Covid. If an airline was hit with an unexpected wave of resignations of people all around a similar age it could be devastating as you won't be replacing pilots quickly in Australia anymore.

[dr dre]

From what I’ve been told NJS Pilots voted up an EA with significantly worse conditions then what they had and will be operating an aircraft 20% bigger then what they currently operate. And for absolutely NO pay increase! How embarrassing!

Have a think about when the timing of that vote was taken, what has changed since and why the EAs negotiated subsequently have been better?

The last NJS vote may have been the last time management in this country could get away with such shenanigans for a while.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Have a think about when the timing of that vote was taken, what has changed since and why the EAs negotiated subsequently have been better?

The last NJS vote may have been the last time management in this country could get away with such shenanigans for a while.

When the next EBA comes around the pilots will hold fresh, unbonded A220 endorsements which the operation will be completely reliant on, in a climate where other countries are offering both visas and big incentives to fly that aircraft type. Qantas/NJS will be reckless if they don’t throw a significantly improved EBA at the pilots before the aircraft arrives.

[43Inches]

When the next EBA comes around the pilots will hold fresh, unbonded A220 endorsements which the operation will be completely reliant on, in a climate where other countries are offering both visas and big incentives to fly that aircraft type. Qantas/NJS will be reckless if they don’t throw a significantly improved EBA at the pilots before the aircraft arrives.

By the next EBA we will be "close to a recession and you will have to take a pay freeze, or the next egomaniac CEO won't make KPIs and $1billion in bonuses". I mean seriously all I've seen is "next EBA" for over 20 years. TBH Mainline has tried and been nobbled at the ankles, as management know nobody will stand behind them push come to shove, lock them out show them who's boss, the rest of the subsidiaries are good boys, keep flying gents, here's some new jets on crumbs for your efforts, but remember what we did to your betters next EBA, hey.

[RealSatoshi]

The last NJS vote may have been the last time management in this country could get away with such shenanigans for a while.
Could be the reason why the incoming CEO has already moved to combine HR and IR, so as to reign in the hired guns that are scaring off the troops and future recruits...

QANTAS GROUP ANNOUNCES SENIOR MANAGEMENT CHANGES (https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-group-announces-senior-management-changes/)

Creation of a dedicated Chief People Officer – this role will bring together human resources and industrial relations functions, which are currently split. This comes as the Group expects to create 8,500 new jobs in Australia within the next decade and ramps up training as it takes delivery of new aircraft. An executive search process is underway to fill this role.

The Johannesburg refueler recons that hours before the recent QLink foreign recruit interviews were due to start in JNB, there were still vacant slots with calls going out to whoever wanted to join the show. Apparently other subsidiaries are also averaging sub 50% show rates on interview days...:ouch:

[KAPAC]

If South Africans aren’t interested then they have officially found the bottom .

[lucille]

When the next EBA comes around the pilots will hold fresh, unbonded A220 endorsements which the operation will be completely reliant on, in a climate where other countries are offering both visas and big incentives to fly that aircraft type. Qantas/NJS will be reckless if they don’t throw a significantly improved EBA at the pilots before the aircraft arrives.

Electing to go work overseas is huge leap of faith.. With reluctant wives and kids at school here, not many will do so. Most would rather eke out a subsistence salary here in the safety and comfort of their own city and close to their families.

Thing is, once you throw caution to the winds there’s almost zero chance of returning to a similar status position - the seniority system sees to that.

You can be certain that HR has these calculations in their minds already.

[tictac123]

The Johannesburg refueler recons that hours before the recent QLink foreign recruit interviews were due to start in JNB, there were still vacant slots with calls going out to whoever wanted to join the show. Apparently other subsidiaries are also averaging sub 50% show rates on interview days...:ouch:

Refueler also says interviews being done by an AIPA rep. Own goal? :confused:

[JoeTripodi]

NJS pilots - "We will get them at the next EBA!" What a load of rubbish, the same morons that voted the current EBA up all still work there including the main fear campaigner, a captain from Brisbane who descended below MSA at night into Hobart and somehow kept his job.
The only thing anyone can do to improve their career there is to resign from that embarrassing GA operation and move on.

[RealSatoshi]

But since the middle of last year some unions have negotiated good deals for employee groups, JQ, EFA amongst others...
'Good Deals' are not always what they seem, so let's dig in...

Using publicly available data, let's assess the goodness of the JQ deal for (per example) a Narrow Body Captain:
1 July 2018: $200 813.00
1 July 2023: $232 600.00
1 July 2024: $239 578.00
1 July 2025: $246 765.00

Common perception would be that a good deal would put you in a position better off than you were before, especially considering additional sacrifices or productivity improvements sold off.

Here is the good deal with real hard facts:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x943/screenshot_2023_07_06_at_17_49_58_ac0c93cc9c7394378064be2508 96100f3c67e072.png

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x612/screenshot_2023_07_06_at_17_50_34_28aa24a7c7ee9962b480e169c9 b103691dc46e03.png

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x554/screenshot_2023_07_06_at_17_51_06_763c82e5e6fcf624fd85265de9 b690c0894419d1.png

To summarise, this good deal will cause your June 2025 salary to trail the buying power of your July 2018 salary by 5.56%.

In simple terms, you will be at $239 578.00 when you should've been at $252 894 just to match your July 2018 buying power - not so good, or is it....:sad:

[WillieTheWimp]

When the next EBA comes around the pilots will hold fresh, unbonded A220 endorsements which the operation will be completely reliant on, in a climate where other countries are offering both visas and big incentives to fly that aircraft type. Qantas/NJS will be reckless if they don’t throw a significantly improved EBA at the pilots before the aircraft arrives.

I get that the NJS guys are frothin for this A220 rating but you have to understand that it’s as useless as a B717 rating. The Airbus name is purely marketing; it’s about as Airbus as the 717 is Boeing. Where do you intend to take these A220 hours? With the majority destined for North America, an A220 rating will not do you too many favours. Otherwise in Europe, Air France/Air Baltic etc are getting some, but again, not much use to an Aussie.
Airbus A320/A330/A350 operators will not consider A220 hours as Airbus hours—if that’s what they are hoping for!

[Lapon]

I get that the NJS guys are frothin for this A220 rating but you have to understand that it’s as useless as a B717 rating.

Wrong. 785 firm orders in a programme still ramping up vs 100ish 71's ever suggests the 220 already is more useful, oh and when the -500 is announced you'll find that order book swell along with the existing Qantas order.

Besides, the 717/220 is perfectly fine for Atlas.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

I get that the NJS guys are frothin for this A220 rating but you have to understand that it’s as useless as a B717 rating. The Airbus name is purely marketing; it’s about as Airbus as the 717 is Boeing. Where do you intend to take these A220 hours? With the majority destined for North America, an A220 rating will not do you too many favours. Otherwise in Europe, Air France/Air Baltic etc are getting some, but again, not much use to an Aussie.
Airbus A320/A330/A350 operators will not consider A220 hours as Airbus hours—if that’s what they are hoping for!

I can assure you that, with the exception of a minute few, the only ones “frothin” for the A220 are management. And none of the pilots who will fly them believe it’s an actual Airbus. The point is NJS need to find hundreds of pilots in a climate where hardly anyone turns up to Australian recruitment days anymore, even the traditional international imports are shunning the “lucky country” as they can simply stay at home nowadays and live better than we can. Your premise that moving OS is a leap of faith is correct but many have already done it in spite of the difficulties that come with the initial move. The truth is the last EBA is still seen as an opportunistic ram raid by an out of touch IR regime and it will not be forgotten. As for taking an A220 endorsement, a few hundred hours and then leaving, there is merit in that if you already intend to go OS at any point because the US and Europe are slowly being flooded with this aircraft type. It’s immaterial whether it’s a “real” airbus when the world is going to have so many of them flying over the next several years. Besides, any endorsements that end up leaving for the US or Europe is just another expensive and time consuming training slot that the company will have to replace. Therefore, it makes sense to retain what they have by means of a liveable EBA and stop the outdated bull**** that will turn out to be a huge own goal.

PS, the days of the “type rated” application being the norm are pretty much over, these days an airline will take you with nothing. Yet another reason to value what they have as it will turn out to be cheaper than cancelling flights and parking jets due to training limitations.

[43Inches]

Not sure what the argument is here. A220 is a smaller narrow body jet airliner. Whatever hours you have will be better than having nothing and if you can't transfer your skills from an A220, to an Ejet or over to the A320 or 737 you probably should go clean toilets instead. Pretty sure the US airlines will not care at all if you have 1500+ hours on an A220 or 737. Considering the amount they are paying, shelling put for a type rating will be cheap for them. I've seen SAAB pilots leave and fly 747s over there, so does that mean the SAAB rating is better than having an A220 in the log book?

[soseg]

Any NJS pilot who says they’re waiting for the a220 TR before leaving for overseas is talking ****.

The A220 TR doesn’t make you any more employable in the current market. They’re so desperate for pilots in USA that GA guys from Oz flying pistons are being put in the RHS of 767s, 747s and 777s.

Your 717 experience is more than sufficient. You understand how to operate an old jet without the luxuries of the new fancy stuff. You’ll have no issues transitioning to any other jet and those overseas companies won’t care whether you rock up with a 717 TR or a 717+220 TR. They’ll pay for whatever training they need to provide you with, and they’d rather do it sooner than later.

It’s all talk. Those blokes won’t leave.

[WillieTheWimp]

Wrong. 785 firm orders in a programme still ramping up vs 100ish 71's ever suggests the 220 already is more useful, oh and when the -500 is announced you'll find that order book swell along with the existing Qantas order.

Besides, the 717/220 is perfectly fine for Atlas.

If their intention is to go overseas, then there is absolutely no point in waiting for the A220. All the US operators will accept 717 time. I can’t think of a single job where an A220 type rating is a requirement…except NJS, but no one wants to work there.

Waiting for an Airbus/Boeing type rating on the other hand I could understand because there are plenty of DEC contracts available as well as narrow body to wide body opportunities.

BTW 785 orders is relatively small. A320 family alone have 10,000 plus in service with a backlog of around 7000.

[portalcarve]

Refueler also says interviews being done by an AIPA rep. Own goal? :confused:

is this true? why is aipa helping qlink hire foreign pilots?

[Lapon]

BTW 785 orders is relatively small. A320 family alone have 10,000 plus in service with a backlog of around 7000.

But I'm sure even you see the flaw in comparing a programme in it's infancy to one that's nearly 40 years old.
Remember there was also a time that DC3s then 727s ruled the sky, but then the world moved on and times changed.

I'd speculate that once a -500 goes into production it will cement the 220 as the popular family of the next 40 years.
Airbus themselves suspect as much, which is why they need the existing manufacturing process to mature before developing the -500.

[SuPeRcHaRgEd]

Any NJS pilot who says they’re waiting for the a220 TR before leaving for overseas is talking ****.

Maybe so. But nothing is going to hurt those Fcukers more than if pilots wait and resign with their fresh 220 endorsement in hand! A well deserved F... You for the treatment NJS pilots have endured in recent years!

[Lookleft]

Maybe so. But nothing is going to hurt those Fcukers more than if pilots wait and resign with their fresh 220 endorsement in hand! A well deserved F... You for the treatment NJS pilots have endured in recent years!

Heard the same thing 19 years ago when Jetstar started."They will all get their Airbus ratings then head overseas." It sounds good as a theory but the reality is some might go but most will stay. Gissing said as much to Jetstar pilots in 2008. When a majority of pilots leave then, and only then, will the money go up.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

And anyway, why shouldn't a father/mother be able to take a day off for their son's birthday??
No one is saying you can't. You just need to plan your holidays better. It's not like their birthday is a surprise. You get a year's notice each time.
Does the airline CEO - or any of the management - come into work at 0500 on Christmas Day, or on their birthday, or on their family member's birthday? No.......thought not.
Well, Christmas Day is a public holiday, so most non shift workers - and the industry has several - will not be at work. As for not coming to work on their birthday or their family members birthday? I think you've been in the sheltered workshop too long.
Aviation is a 24/7 industry. For some roles in it, if you don't come to work, someone else has to. That's why others prefer you do your rostered shift, rather than them have to.

[morno]

No one is saying you can't. You just need to plan your holidays better. It's not like their birthday is a surprise. You get a year's notice each time.

Well, Christmas Day is a public holiday, so most non shift workers - and the industry has several - will not be at work. As for not coming to work on their birthday or their family members birthday? I think you've been in the sheltered workshop too long.
Aviation is a 24/7 industry. For some roles in it, if you don't come to work, someone else has to. That's why others prefer you do your rostered shift, rather than them have to.

Ohh yes, because it’s always soooooo easy to get exactly what you want for annual leave and day off bids :rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Get real, if you can always get your requests then I’d love to know where you work.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

No, I can't always get what I want. I've always worked shift in jobs that were 24/7. I've missed my share of family and life events. I (and my family) take that as part of the job. I'm on a salary. I get the same money whether I work 12hr day shift or 12hr night shift, Friday or Sunday, Anzac Day or Christmas Day, If one of my days on or off happens to be a public holiday, I don't get another day off in lieu. That's just the way it works. I (and my family) take that as part of the job. I knew it going in. There's always another option should the work you choose to do turn out to be inconvenient. No one is holding a gun to your head to accept their pay cheque.

[megan]

If one of my days on or off happens to be a public holiday, I don't get another day off in lieuDon't know about you but in my time the general populace on an hourly rate of pay got four weeks leave a year plus public holidays, as a pilot we received six weeks leave a year with attendant salary, the two extra weeks leave being recognition of lost public holidays.

Does seniority still enhance your ability to get what you bid for? If so the folk further down the list whose bid goes in the bin might be a darn sight happier if the important days days such as Xmas were spread equitably right across the work force, in this computer age its not beyond the ingenuity of man/woman to devise a program/software.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Don't know about you but in my time the general populace on an hourly rate of pay got four weeks leave a year plus public holidays, as a pilot we received six weeks leave a year with attendant salary, the two extra weeks leave being recognition of lost public holidays.

Can you back that up with anything in either your agreement or the Fair Work Act?

[megan]

Sorry no gordon, I'm talking of the mid '70's when our pilot group ran our own affairs via the AFAP.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Gordon don't play naive. Everyone knows pilots get six weeks leave because of the public holiday issue. Some pilots though choose to ignore this fact when they
go into whingey mode. You don't get 6 weeks leave because you're special.

[krismiler]

We can't have a pay rise when times are bad, but then we can't have a pay rise when times are good because times will turn bad again. Roll on retirement as far as I'm concerned.

[dragon man]

We can't have a pay rise when times are bad, but then we can't have a pay rise when times are good because times will turn bad again. Roll on retirement as far as I'm concerned.

Or you can have a pay rise paid for by giving up conditions that you will never get back and far in excess of the miserly increase you will see in your pay.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Can you back that up with anything in either your agreement or the Fair Work Act?

Sort of.23.4 An employee is entitled to annual leave such that the employee’s total entitlement to annual leave pursuant to the NES (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awards/resources/nes.pdf)and this award for each year of employment is a total of 42 days annual leave, inclusive of Saturdays, Sundays and public holidays on full salary for each completed year of service, with a right to take 2 rostered days free of duty immediately before or after or one day immediately before and one day immediately after such leave period.

29.1 For the avoidance of doubt:(a) the minimum wage provided for in this award; and(b) the entitlement to annual leave in clause 23 — Annual leave ,take into account an employee’s entitlement to public holidays in the NES (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awards/resources/nes.pdf)and include compensation for all public holidays provided for in the NES (https://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/awards/resources/nes.pdf).

Air Pilots Award 2020 (https://www.fwc.gov.au/document-search/view/2/aHR0cHM6Ly9zYXNyY2RhdGFwcmRhdWVhYS5ibG9iLmNvcmUud2luZG93cy5u ZXQvYXdhcmRzL01vZGVybkF3YXJkcy9NQTAwMDA0Ni5kb2N40?sid=&q=#_Toc138155770)

[soseg]

...in this computer age its not beyond the ingenuity of man/woman to devise a program/software.

Check your cis-woman privilege at the door, Megan. How dare you make such a gendered comment assuming only two genders exist.

Because of people like you, with your out-dated views our industry continues to lack in diversity and inclusion and makes it feel like we work with dinosaurs.

I'll let this one slide. One more insensitive comment from you and you'll be receiving a call from your respective pprune-HR department.

[morno]

No, I can't always get what I want. I've always worked shift in jobs that were 24/7. I've missed my share of family and life events. I (and my family) take that as part of the job. I'm on a salary. I get the same money whether I work 12hr day shift or 12hr night shift, Friday or Sunday, Anzac Day or Christmas Day, If one of my days on or off happens to be a public holiday, I don't get another day off in lieu. That's just the way it works. I (and my family) take that as part of the job. I knew it going in. There's always another option should the work you choose to do turn out to be inconvenient. No one is holding a gun to your head to accept their pay cheque.

Then maybe it’s a sign that people are placing more importance on family and lifestyle, than a job where no appreciation is given and terms are going backwards.

You’re more than welcome to just ‘accept it’, but I would rather have my time back.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Gordon don't play naive. Everyone knows pilots get six weeks leave because of the public holiday issue. Some pilots though choose to ignore this fact when they
go into whingey mode. You don't get 6 weeks leave because you're special.

Not being naive Rex, it’s just never (to my knowledge) been written into law that this is actually the intent. I was asking if that concept could be backed up at all.

[Ladloy]

Don't know about you but in my time the general populace on an hourly rate of pay got four weeks leave a year plus public holidays, as a pilot we received six weeks leave a year with attendant salary, the two extra weeks leave being recognition of lost public holidays.

Does seniority still enhance your ability to get what you bid for? If so the folk further down the list whose bid goes in the bin might be a darn sight happier if the important days days such as Xmas were spread equitably right across the work force, in this computer age its not beyond the ingenuity of man/woman to devise a program/software.
Paramedics, nurses and police to name a few all get 6 or 8 weeks plus holiday rates. Poor excuse.

[Captn Rex Havack]

Not being naive Rex, it’s just never (to my knowledge) been written into law that this is actually the intent. I was asking if that concept could be backed up at all.

Refer Chronic Snoozers post Gordy

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Refer Chronic Snoozers post Gordy

I stand corrected. I know it has been a long standing claim by management but it was never (clearly) substantiated to my knowledge.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

You’re more than welcome to just ‘accept it’, but I would rather have my time back.
You never had it in the first place. Someone was always flying/working those days. Can't get upset now that it's your turn.

I get 5 weeks annual leave a year. The non-shift workers in my company get 4 plus 13 public holidays. On my 4 on-4 off roster, if I take the 5 weeks it's 40 consecutive days off. For the non-shift it's 28 consecutive. Then they get the other 13 days spread through the year, generally as long weekends. Swings and roundabouts.

[maverick4442]

Don't know about you but in my time the general populace on an hourly rate of pay got four weeks leave a year plus public holidays, as a pilot we received six weeks leave a year with attendant salary, the two extra weeks leave being recognition of lost public holidays.

Does seniority still enhance your ability to get what you bid for? If so the folk further down the list whose bid goes in the bin might be a darn sight happier if the important days days such as Xmas were spread equitably right across the work force, in this computer age its not beyond the ingenuity of man/woman to devise a program/software.

Sorry to burst your bubble Megan but 6 weeks annual leave is garbage for working public holidays in todays day and age.
Working Public holidays under the same hourly rate with no extra pay for two extra weeks of leave making it a grand total of 6 is rubbish.
Look at other professions leave entitlements for working public holidays it is more than 6 weeks as stated in an above comment.
Not paying anything extra on these days is nothing more than taking advantage of the worker.
Yes the airline operates 365 days a year 24/7 and I get that but not at the expense of the worker.
Pretty sure American Airlines Tentative agreement is paying 5 hours something extra to work a public holiday.

Rumour is American majors might open up E3! Will be interesting to see how many stay and how many Leave if it actually happens.
Upwards in the states and race to the bottom in Australia. :ok:

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

My shift-working colleagues who are on an EBA, thus an hourly rate, get paid shift penalties for working a public holiday, plus still get the 5 weeks annual leave (to make up for not getting other days off in lieu). When I moved onto a salary it now, I am reliably informed by HR, includes a calculation to make up for shift penalties, however they may occur. At the end of the day, it's a contract, and I signed it. We discussed, they offered, I accepted. It's gone backward a little because of the last couple of years, but I was damn lucky to have a job right through COVID, especially with what it did to our industry. 100% of something is a hell of a lot better than 100% of nothing. I'm a long way behind CPI now but I can still pay the mortgage.
Working Public holidays under the same hourly rate with no extra pay
I guess it depends on what your hourly rate is calculated on in the first place, doesn't it? It would appear from Chronic Snoozers extract of the award that your rate includes a compensation for working public holidays, which, incidentally, you probably receive even if you don't work them. So, you're getting paid for them, whether you work them or not, and getting 6 weeks annual leave, when the most others can hope for is 5 weeks. Not a bad gig.

[Icemansteeve]

Rumour is American majors might open up E3! Will be interesting to see how many stay and how many Leave if it actually happens.
Upwards in the states and race to the bottom in Australia. :ok:

I appreciate the wishful thinking. You raise a good point, however. Hell would freeze over before the ALPA consents to E3's, or any other temporary working visa for that matter, in the majors.

A far cry from the strongly worded letter that was the response to a recent spat of job advertisements, which all suggested a pathway to PERMANENT MIGRATION mind you. The AFAP and the AIPA need to wake up and start engaging their member base. It's their job to encourage participation and facilitate member advocacy and ultimately, to work for and protect our strategic interests.

[cxflog]

I appreciate the wishful thinking. You raise a good point, however. Hell would freeze over before the ALPA consents to E3's, or any other temporary working visa for that matter, in the majors.

Depends what you define as a US “major” airline. There are plenty of E3’s at Frontier and Spirit which I would consider major airlines. Allegiant also has Aussies but is quite a bit smaller.

I agree that US legacy’s are out of reach for E3’s unless something major changes. Or you luck out with a greencard.

[chookcooker]

Gordon don't play naive. Everyone knows pilots get six weeks leave because of the public holiday issue. Some pilots though choose to ignore this fact when they
go into whingey mode. You don't get 6 weeks leave because you're special.
6 weeks leave vs 4
vic has now 13 public holidays so a whole 1 day extra than the public. Whoopty fkn doo.

the Leave isn’t available whenever you want it

a leave day taken in march isn’t the same value as Christmas Day.

[morno]

My shift-working colleagues who are on an EBA, thus an hourly rate, get paid shift penalties for working a public holiday, plus still get the 5 weeks annual leave (to make up for not getting other days off in lieu). When I moved onto a salary it now, I am reliably informed by HR, includes a calculation to make up for shift penalties, however they may occur. At the end of the day, it's a contract, and I signed it. We discussed, they offered, I accepted. It's gone backward a little because of the last couple of years, but I was damn lucky to have a job right through COVID, especially with what it did to our industry. 100% of something is a hell of a lot better than 100% of nothing. I'm a long way behind CPI now but I can still pay the mortgage.

I guess it depends on what your hourly rate is calculated on in the first place, doesn't it? It would appear from Chronic Snoozers extract of the award that your rate includes a compensation for working public holidays, which, incidentally, you probably receive even if you don't work them. So, you're getting paid for them, whether you work them or not, and getting 6 weeks annual leave, when the most others can hope for is 5 weeks. Not a bad gig.

Well then maybe it’s time things changed and we get shift penalties for working public holidays. Just because it’s been accepted for the past 30-40 years, doesn’t mean it always should be. We’re underpaid for what we do now and 2 weeks extra leave that I generally can’t take when I want to take it anyway, doesn’t pay me enough for losing public holidays or my kids birthdays etc.

Think about it this way, a lot of office workers only have to take around 3 days leave to get all of Christmas/NY off, or they get paid a crap tonne to work it. Meanwhile I’d get laughed at and told here’s my pattern for Christmas for nothing else.

Time to stand up for more, in every aspect.

[Chronic Snoozer]

I'd be careful not to conflate the Award with what is in your EBA. The Air Pilots Award is the minimum that the FWC will approve. Before an EBA is approved, and after being voted up, the BOOT is applied and this is where most awards will have pro and cons whilst meeting the better off overall test criteria. You shouldn't be getting less than what is in the Award but there is nothing wrong with benefits above the provisions of the Award. That's called market forces obviously, with a bit of good negotiation.

In terms of annual leave, the NES minimum is four weeks for normal workers and five for shift workers which includes aircrew. As mentioned above, each state has different public holidays WA 11, NSW 13 and QLD 14 depending on where those days fall in the week. So the average office worker gets to have their cake and eat it because they will be getting two weeks of public holidays and if they're on a 38 hour week, an additional RDO per month depending on how the business rosters their hours. Just because the Air Pilots Award says that 6 weeks annual leave compensates pilots for being shift workers and working public holidays, financially and in terms of time off, doesn't mean it is adequate or otherwise. It is a question of what the workforce and employer will bear. IMO, the aviation industry (accountants and HR) have long leveraged pilots' love of flying to the company's advantage. Take note of the following from the FW Act -

114 Entitlement to be absent from employment on public holiday
Employee entitled to be absent on public holiday

(1) An employee is entitled to be absent from his or her employment on a day or part‑day that is a public holiday in the place where the employee is based for work purposes.

Reasonable requests to work on public holidays

(2) However, an employer may request an employee to work on a public holiday if the request is reasonable.

(3) If an employer requests an employee to work on a public holiday, the employee may refuse the request if:

(a) the request is not reasonable; or

(b) the refusal is reasonable.

(4) In determining whether a request, or a refusal of a request, to work on a public holiday is reasonable, the following must be taken into account:

(a) the nature of the employer’s workplace or enterprise (including its operational requirements), and the nature of the work performed by the employee;

(b) the employee’s personal circumstances, including family responsibilities;

(c) whether the employee could reasonably expect that the employer might request work on the public holiday;

(d) whether the employee is entitled to receive overtime payments, penalty rates or other compensation for, or a level of remuneration that reflects an expectation of, work on the public holiday;

(e) the type of employment of the employee (for example, whether full‑time, part‑time, casual or shiftwork);

(f) the amount of notice in advance of the public holiday given by the employer when making the request;

(g) in relation to the refusal of a request—the amount of notice in advance of the public holiday given by the employee when refusing the request;

(h) any other relevant matter.

[megan]

Paramedics, nurses and police to name a few all get 6 or 8 weeks plus holiday rates. Poor excuseWhooo boys and girls, my statement was how the extra two weeks for aircrew was introduced originallySorry to burst your bubble Megan but 6 weeks annual leave is garbage for working public holidays in todays day and ageNo bubble to burst, I merely put forward what came about in my 145 octane (Performance Number actually since there is no such thing as an octane rating above 100) burning days. You boys and girls can sure read into a statement something that was never implied.Check your cis-woman privilege at the door, Megan. How dare you make such a gendered comment assuming only two genders exist.

Because of people like you, with your out-dated views our industry continues to lack in diversity and inclusion and makes it feel like we work with dinosaurs.

I'll let this one slide. One more insensitive comment from you and you'll be receiving a call from your respective PPRuNe-HR departmentAt my age I don't do woke, I identify folk as they exited the womb, the other identities are add ons.

[RealSatoshi]

Time to stand up for more, in every aspect.
Something like this :sad:

American Airlines pilots will vote on new contract with 41.5% in pay raises (https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2023/07/07/american-airlines-pilots-will-vote-on-new-contract-with-415-in-pay-raises/)

The contract is effective for four years and will be amendable on 1 August 2027 - Pilots would be back paid, based on eligible earnings:
2020 ---> 4%
2021 ---> 4%
2022 ---> 14%
2023 ---> 21%
2024 ---> 5%
2025 ---> 4%
2026 ---> 4%
2027 ---> 3%

In 2024, pilots would receive a 17% 401(k) contribution, and in 2026, the contribution would increase to 18%

That is a 41.5% real earnings boost from 2023 to 2027 or, considering the back pay, a 74.5% real earnings boost from 2020 to 2027 - not accounting for the boost in company 401(k) contributions :ouch:

[soseg]

Depends what you define as a US “major” airline.

Anything with more than 10 jets would be considered a major airline in Oz.

[soseg]

Whooo boys and girls, my statement was how the extra two weeks for aircrew was introduced originallyNo bubble to burst, I merely put forward what came about in my 145 octane (Performance Number actually since there is no such thing as an octane rating above 100) burning days. You boys and girls can sure read into a statement something that was never implied.At my age I don't do woke, I identify folk as they exited the womb, the other identities are add ons.

You really are a toxic cis-woman.

Reported.

[Alfie.floor]

You really are a toxic cis-woman.

Reported.
why? Because it goes against your extremist beliefs? It’s call freedom of speech!

[43Inches]

I think what this thread shows is that most don't understand that once an EBA is above Award everything is just an "agreement". The Union or Employer puts together what they think the pilots want, put it to vote, and you either agree or disagree, you duke it out over the finer points and shake hands, at pilot level of pay there is very little right or wrong, it's just what you agree to. Anything that is in continual disagreement will have to be reconciled to allow agreement, the last resort being PIA or just leaving for greener pastures, even then there is no law saying that with every negotiation the EBA must improve, or has to meet CPI (unless you are going to be below relative Award for the industry). The extra 2 weeks leave was added to many EBA as part o the compensation for shift work/working public holidays, that was when agreements were moving out of the dark ages. You do not always have to trade something, that is productivity or such for increased income, you can just claim it as necessary to maintain or even improve workforce desired lifestyle. That does not mean that an extra 2 weeks leave is still worth what it was worth back then, however that is probably how your employer will look at that clause.

The only time you have to justify the increases is if it went to arbitration after an impasse and each side has to justify it's position. Trying to justify claims to the boss is a waste of time, they will always look for the minimum they can get away with, mostly they only ask for the claims justified as stalling tactics to draw out negotiations. Presently the main concern for the workers side is that you are not made worse off by the new EBA and things to be considered will be offsets for days off/public holidays, work specific complications and dangers etc etc... Now worse off compared to what is where the outcome could be good or bad, as that becomes what is the industrial flavor of the day and what the judge/panel orientation is. So just pushing PIA until it gets to the point of government intervention will probably not end well.

None of that stops the employer from outright rejecting an EBA and offering anything it wants and dealing with the pathetic comebacks the workers have, like non disruptive PIA. AJ proved what an employer can do if they really want to, that was against some very mild PIA, and the QF pilot body showed it didn't have much to kick back with.

The best recourse to deal with miserly employers is to just pack up and leave... nothing can stop you from doing that, and if the company can not replace you then they can't blame anyone but themselves. Remember anything you do to 'cost' a company more than doing your normal job would be considered unprotected industrial action, and the company could seek to reclaim lost income from individuals, so be very careful about being too militant without union support.

[Mach E Avelli]

You really are a toxic cis-woman.

Reported.
Reported? To whom and for what?
Play the ball, not the man (or ‘person’ - if you are one of those who would bastardise our great language). Man being short for mankind, aka human, which covers everyone, including that poisonous Pommy teacher who berated a 13 year old girl who dared argue that, at birth, there were only two genders. This teacher told her class that a person could identify as a cat, if they so desired, and apparently that made them a cat. Seriously….
Now where were we? Oh yes, pilot working conditions.

[Lookleft]

Time to hold up the sarcasm sign soseg.

[soseg]

Boomers.

[Ascend Charlie]

Soseg thinks that Megan is a woman / female / non-male / whatever.

You are guilty of thought-crime and have been reported to The Supreme Entity.

[megan]

AC, you have to give the children some latitude at times.

[dragon man]

Offshore oil and gas workers have secured a sector-leading pay rise of 8.6 per cent after threatening industrial action against a key labour hire firm.

The Offshore Alliance, a team-up of the Australian Workers Union and Maritime Union of Australia, revealed on Monday it had reached an in-principle deal with Rigforce that guarantees about 60 drill workers a 15.6 per cent pay rise over two years, made up of 8.6 per cent this year and 7 per cent next year.


Can’t see any pilots in Australia winning pay rises like this.

[Who stole my meds]

Offshore oil and gas workers have secured a sector-leading pay rise of 8.6 per cent after threatening industrial action against a key labour hire firm.

The Offshore Alliance, a team-up of the Australian Workers Union and Maritime Union of Australia, revealed on Monday it had reached an in-principle deal with Rigforce that guarantees about 60 drill workers a 15.6 per cent pay rise over two years, made up of 8.6 per cent this year and 7 per cent next year.


Can’t see any pilots in Australia winning pay rises like this.

The question that should now be asked is, are the heads of the AWU & MUA rig drillers. Probably not. Maybe they've got professional negotiators doing the negotiating.
It would go a long way to explaining the pay rise.

Pilots shouldn't be negotiating on their own behalf. History (in Australia & most of the world) has shown it limits gains.
Just an observation.

[dragon man]

The question that should now be asked is, are the heads of the AWU & MUA rig drillers. Probably not. Maybe they've got professional negotiators doing the negotiating.
It would go a long way to explaining the pay rise.

Pilots shouldn't be negotiating on their own behalf. History (in Australia & most of the world) has shown it limits gains.
Just an observation.

As the MUA & AWU have significant runs on the board maybe the aviation employees in Australia should join them and have them negotiate on their behalf. They couldn’t be any worse off I would think.

[Colonel_Klink]

The question that should now be asked is, are the heads of the AWU & MUA rig drillers. Probably not. Maybe they've got professional negotiators doing the negotiating.
It would go a long way to explaining the pay rise.

Pilots shouldn't be negotiating on their own behalf. History (in Australia & most of the world) has shown it limits gains.
Just an observation.

Yet everyone here points to US pilot wages, and ALPA pilots are the ones that are in the room negotiating with the Companies over there….

[Who stole my meds]

Yet everyone here points to US pilot wages, and ALPA pilots are the ones that are in the room negotiating with the Companies over there….
Different IR rules.
Wages in the USA can't be reasonably compared to Australia. USA has 300 Million +, Australia as 26 Million. No real comparison in my opinion. USA has a much larger customer base.

Different pilot mindset.
Pilots in the USA make no secret of their willingness to go on strike even when there's no negotiations taking place (although they do have similar rules around preventing wildcat strikes like Aus have).

The reality is, it doesn't matter how successful US pilots have been at their negotiations, Australian plots have been appallingly bad and many decades of EBA's have proven as such.

Australian pilots unions (or associations as they are better known as) need to put ego aside and get professional negotiators.

[Who stole my meds]

Yet everyone here points to US pilot wages, and ALPA pilots are the ones that are in the room negotiating with the Companies over there….
The other consideration re:wages is how much of those wages that people brag about are based on minimum guarantee and how much includes overtime (which in the USA is gained by working days off, and that assumes you have the seniority to get those flights if/when they become available) and how much includes allowances.

I'm sure no Australian working in the USA would over inflate there pay packet by including overtime and allowances........

[Gnadenburg]

That’s funny! Since the demise of Ansett, it’s been embarrassed Aussie pilots fattening up their annual salaries by quoting compulsory super contributions and per diem.

Airline pilot wages can be a complicated assessment to undertake. For instance, when I was an Ansett pilot for near a decade, OT was virtually guaranteed and never was there a month I didn’t surge beyond 55 hours where it kicked in. It was fair to say I was paid 130K a year in the 90’s. Not including Super and Per Diem. The States will have reasonable assumptions too and granted, cargo pilots quoting wages during COVID may require a bit of scrutiny if coming Stateside.

Cost of living is now so high in Australia ( housing especially ) I just don’t know what to make of wage assessment. It’s grim. Pilots I’ve met since repatriation are not leading enviable, Aussie lifestyles unless well established at the likes of QF. Explaining investment strategies to defeat inflation and corporates inevitably eroding your wage isn’t a courteous flight deck topic in Australia- many pilots have no money. Living pay to pay, I get the vulnerability and coupled with horrendous industrial legislation, I also understand the status of Aussie pilots being industrial eunuchs.

[Verbal Kint]

The other consideration re:wages is how much of those wages that people brag about are based on minimum guarantee and how much includes overtime (which in the USA is gained by working days off, and that assumes you have the seniority to get those flights if/when they become available) and how much includes allowances.

I'm sure no Australian working in the USA would over inflate there pay packet by including overtime and allowances........

Inflating pay is less of a thing in the US - the general rule is annual pay = hourly rate x 1000, without working a bunch of extra days, nor milking overtime. I’ve worked maybe 4 extra days this year, and my projected annual earnings are closer to 1200 x my hourly rate.

United ALPA reached an agreement yesterday which, if it gets up (likely will), will see a 2nd year 737 CA on about $315K USD base. That excludes 17% 401(k) & per diems (meal allowances).

Australian airlines are a long way behind. Glad I left. Lucky I had the opportunity to do so.

[43Inches]

Different IR rules.
Wages in the USA can't be reasonably compared to Australia. USA has 300 Million +, Australia as 26 Million. No real comparison in my opinion. USA has a much larger customer base.

Different pilot mindset.
Pilots in the USA make no secret of their willingness to go on strike even when there's no negotiations taking place (although they do have similar rules around preventing wildcat strikes like Aus have).

The reality is, it doesn't matter how successful US pilots have been at their negotiations, Australian plots have been appallingly bad and many decades of EBA's have proven as such.

Australian pilots unions (or associations as they are better known as) need to put ego aside and get professional negotiators.

There is one big difference that makes all the difference, ALPA is one big union that covers a lot of pilots and lobbies for a lot of pilot issues, not just individual airline squabbles.

You want real change in Australia, get under one banner and have an industry representative body, not an airline representative, especially ones that are pretty much run by the airline itself. Ever since '89 its been clear that having separate unions has not helped anyone achieve anything of real substance. Whats clear now is that the whole aviation industry is paying for the industrial relations mess that is happening here, lack of staff, lack of experience, lack of motivation. So even the companies are paying for not having strong pilot unions to ensure the positions remain filled by competent employees.... Whilst pilots might be up among the most respected jobs, they now work for companies who rate as the most unreliable and for bosses with reputations worse than lawyers and politicians (most are from those backgrounds, so figures). I don't think any airline pilot in Australia will walk away after a career the last 40 years and say "gee, that boss was a good bloke and did right by us". I think the general consensus now is they are all "just a bunch of rich wankers out for themselves and ruined my workplace".

[MikeHatter732]

United CEO yesterday: "We promised our world-class pilots the industry-leading contract they deserve, and we’re pleased to have reached an agreement with ALPA on it. The four-year agreement, once ratified, will deliver a meaningful pay raise and quality of life improvements for our pilots while putting the airline on track to achieve the incredible potential of our United Next strategy."

Imagine seeing an Australian airline CEO say that....They'd rather sh^t in their hands and clap!

[dragon man]

United CEO yesterday: "We promised our world-class pilots the industry-leading contract they deserve, and we’re pleased to have reached an agreement with ALPA on it. The four-year agreement, once ratified, will deliver a meaningful pay raise and quality of life improvements for our pilots while putting the airline on track to achieve the incredible potential of our United Next strategy."

Imagine seeing an Australian airline CEO say that....They'd rather sh^t in their hands and clap!


To Australian airline CEOs pilots are over paid and underworked.They are an evil that costs to much and who cares if they leave we will just get another mug to replace them.

[DropYourSocks]

United CEO yesterday: "We promised our world-class pilots the industry-leading contract they deserve, and we’re pleased to have reached an agreement with ALPA on it. The four-year agreement, once ratified, will deliver a meaningful pay raise and quality of life improvements for our pilots while putting the airline on track to achieve the incredible potential of our United Next strategy."

Imagine seeing an Australian airline CEO say that....They'd rather sh^t in their hands and clap!

https://upa23.com/

Here's the cliff notes if anyone is interested. Word is the contract is valued around $10B.

[redsnail]

And watch those same CEOs furlough the pilots and slash the T&Cs to ribbons when the economy dips again, as it always does.

[DropYourSocks]

And watch those same CEOs furlough the pilots and slash the T&Cs to ribbons when the economy dips again, as it always does.

You mean like how Tiger & Virgin got dismantled? Not for nothing though, Alpa at several carriers negotiated furlough mitigation agreements to run alongside the government bailouts.

[Fuel-Off]

Over the years, US unions also negotiated scope clauses to prevent airlines outsourcing their flying to subsidiaries. Imagine the Australian aviation industry today if AIPA and AFAP considered that over the past few decades of negotiating.

Hindsight is 20/20 I guess…

Fuel-Off :ok:

[C441]

Over the years, US unions also negotiated scope clauses to prevent airlines outsourcing their flying to subsidiaries. Imagine the Australian aviation industry today if AIPA and AFAP considered that over the past few decades of negotiating.

One group did and the CEO 'grounded' the airline.

[Global Aviator]

And watch those same CEOs furlough the pilots and slash the T&Cs to ribbons when the economy dips again, as it always does.

Redsnail,

I do appreciate the patriotic nature of your comment, I to actually still get a shiver when I see one of the best ever ads in my opinion play - I still call Australia home.

Fact is though that Aussie airlines are light years behind the USA way of thinking and what is actually happening now. Not that I agree with the 1500 hour rule for the RHS, but the USA does and the unions have adamantly defended how many motions to have it changed?

What the crash that brought all this about was one of the catalysts to the change in pay for regionals.

It filters down from the TOP, United/ Delta / American the top, then come the regionals (hmm owned by the majors), then the independent regionals. What’s happened at all? Bonuses, increased rates and quality of life.

Now let’s talk about corporate aviation and GA in America, nah that’s for another topics.

[43Inches]

And watch those same CEOs furlough the pilots and slash the T&Cs to ribbons when the economy dips again, as it always does.

I'm not sure what you are trying to point out here. All I can say it just proves that while times are in your favor you push for as much as you can get, as what you end up with is where the cuts start from when times are bad. After 50% cuts to $600k you will still have a lot more than 50% cuts to $300k, so if you don't get your conditions up in the good times they will be dragged down way worse in the bad, if you are on the furlough list, that's tough, but its how the US system works, at least it's not forced redundancy. I would say the rocketing conditions in the US is more a sign of the airlines coming to terms with the general shortage of experience, not some passing phase, otherwise it would be retention bonuses and such. I think maybe this shows the young inexperienced players in the industry that don't understand the swings and roundabouts of aviation. And be sure they will cut your conditions in bad times no matter where they started from, so as they say, make hay while the sun shines...

Maybe this just sums up Aussie pilots, "aww man, why bother".

One group did and the CEO 'grounded' the airline.


The CEO can only ground the airline for so long, if the pilots voted for further PIA where they effectively grounded the airline themselves on rolling stoppages the tables would turn. It all depends how much stomach you have for real industrial action and the industry weight you carry to ensure you can't be undone by strike breakers and such. Right now QF is making a record profit on the back of treating the public like animals, if the unions were really in for the long haul now is when you would be setting the tone for better remuneration, as the company has no sob story to force an end to PIA, and the public would be right behind you.

Or you could say "why bother?" and sit back and wait for the next recession/pandemic/war to freeze your pay and set you back another 10 years.

[MikeHatter732]

And watch those same CEOs furlough the pilots and slash the T&Cs to ribbons when the economy dips again, as it always does.
Yet their T&C's are still way ahead of Australia.

[Gnadenburg]

And watch those same CEOs furlough the pilots and slash the T&Cs to ribbons when the economy dips again, as it always does.

It’s an interesting hypothetical . How much of an economic dip is required in the US to absorb the structural pilot shortage? Are US carriers meeting pre-COVID levels of traffic yet? Carriers like United are scrambling to pick up as much flying in markets where competitors like QF, are struggling to train staff to meet pre-COVID demand.

I reckon it will take something like a war in the Pacific to take down US pilot demand for the next few years.

[Slippery_Pete]

I reckon it will take something like a war in the Pacific to take down US pilot demand for the next few years.

Agreed. Things aren’t slowing down for a long time.

There won’t be any flood of foreign pilots to Australia given our crap T&Cs, high tax rate and impossibly expensive real estate.

If it was so great here, why did hundreds of pilots chuck it in to go work for Atlas?

Any attempts to get foreign pilots approved is an attempt to drive conditions down. The airlines don’t believe they’ll get their crew shortages solved using foreign crew, but they are going to use it to fear-monger and bully pilots.

Like the “strategic imperatives or we’ll give it to someone else” that the NJS pilots lapped up with a spoon. It’s all about creating fear and anxiety.

Maybe this just sums up Aussie pilots, "aww man, why bother".

I think you’ll be surprised. COVID and how pilots were treated is lingering in people’s minds. Any goodwill that previously existed is completely gone.

Any good CEO (or CEO-incumbent) would see the anger and that it’s going to be an absolute bloodbath this time around. Better off to limit the damage and scrape something over the line than risk a damaging industrial action campaign when public sentiment is so low.

Word on the street is VA having real trouble getting any of their laid-off pilots to come back, because they all have other plans in the pipeline. Staff that were happily tossed aside during COVID don’t feel any loyalty - fancy that!

[RealSatoshi]

To Australian airline CEOs pilots are over paid and underworked.They are an evil that costs to much and who cares if they leave we will just get another mug to replace them.
Let's TEST their theory and examine who can better afford to pay their pilots more - United Airlines or Qantas Group :8

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x985/screenshot_2023_07_19_at_10_49_38_13544dd5cac54f8fb9ef1faad3 17c2a6c14decc0.png


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x985/screenshot_2023_07_19_at_10_48_42_cbcf1c39a5ae23c13cdff753a5 0b38511a7c727a.png

[C441]

The CEO can only ground the airline for so long, if the pilots voted for further PIA where they effectively grounded the airline themselves on rolling stoppages the tables would turn.
Unfortunately that opportunity disappeared as soon after the FW commission 'determined' the outcome and PIA was no longer a legal option. From that point on the stable door was well and truly ajar and the horses were seeking the greener pastures offered by the chance of quick promotion in the smaller 'paddocks' used by the same trainer.

[Beer Baron]

Over the years, US unions also negotiated scope clauses to prevent airlines outsourcing their flying to subsidiaries. Imagine the Australian aviation industry today if AIPA and AFAP considered that over the past few decades of negotiating.

Hindsight is 20/20 I guess…
Hahaha… yeah, if only we’d considered that. Oh wait a minute….
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/492x567/img_0128_8d868c1f6122a89f931d25a6f17b6c7a08ca07ef.jpeg
Seems your hindsight ain’t quite 20/20.

For the record, AIPA took PIA to achieve the closest thing to ‘scope’ and were shut down by the Federal Government. It’s not like we didn’t think of it and haven’t tried.

[43Inches]

Without an industry wide mandate you will never have sway on issues outside of the company represented by the union. ALPA gets things done because it represents over 70,000 pilots across 20 odd major airlines, so they can truly claim they speak for pilots in general. AIPA does not because it represents a small corner of the pilot body for one section of one company. AIPA also shot itself in the foot with several poorly thought out gambits, which QF management leaked to the public and instantly made the pilots look like whinging rich folk, once you lose public support, fair work will act against you 'in the public interest'. Management will treat negotiations like a game, if the employee does the same they will get dragged into a PR trap, keep it simple and clear what you want and stick to your guns.

[Uplinker]

Gordon don't play naive. Everyone knows pilots get six weeks leave because of the public holiday issue. Some pilots though choose to ignore this fact when they go into whingey mode. You don't get 6 weeks leave because you're special.

Even if that's true, where I have worked, (UK), we were only allowed to take 2 weeks off in the busy Summer, and the other 4 weeks in the quiet Winter. And those 4 weeks of Winter leave did not include the Christmas period. Very big of the airline to let me take weeks off in the quiet season - costs them absolutely nothing to write "Leave" on my roster instead of "STBY".

As for not being "special", well I seem to remember doing quite a lot of work and hard study to get my ATPL licence and my numerous type ratings, but yeah, sure, we're not special; we're just pack horses who can be loaded up and abused, because we won't complain........

[redsnail]

I've watched the T&Cs in the US boom post the Buffalo crash, I've also got quite a few friends in the US who can still remember their furloughs. The US tends to really do boom and bust cycles really well. Right now, it's boom. Our parent company pilots are fighting very hard for better T&Cs (and they are one of the best in the fractional world) as they now cannot attract talented experienced pilots. Which is great for every one. Hopefully it'll continue for a while. Over here in Europe, it's been booming (albeit not as loudly as the US) for a year or so. We've hired well over 200 pilots in the past 2 years. What has been highlighted by Covid is the work-life balance. I'm finally going part time in September. There's probably only a few older easyJet captains in the UK who are still 100%.
The next time I set foot in Australia baring family crisis will be for (probable) retirement.

I do sincerely wish you all well in the fight for better T&Cs, goodness knows you all deserve better.

[dragon man]

Virgin gives engineers 13.5pc pay rise, backs out of test case https://archive.md/AGGFS/4c45ed2a6463f264b7a4869bf61cbfb421bc1445.pngDavid Marin-Guzman (https://archive.md/o/AGGFS/https://www.afr.com/by/david-marin-guzman-gr047a)Workplace correspondentJul 21, 2023 – 10.41am
Save

ShareVirgin has agreed to a 13.5 per cent pay rise for engineers at its fly-in, fly-out service in an 11th hour deal that has forced it to retract a bid to arbitrate the dispute using Labor’s new “intractable bargaining” laws.
The airline’s West Australian-based Virgin Australia Regional Airline (VARA) had been the first employer to test the Albanese government’s unilateral arbitration laws (https://archive.md/o/AGGFS/https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/virgin-tests-labor-s-intractable-bargaining-laws-to-end-strikes-20230627-p5djt4) that came into effect last month and was set to argue its case before a full bench of the Fair Work Commission on Friday, against strong union opposition. https://archive.md/AGGFS/4dc048379fec1c9ff1bd8d2b6cbccbb2cbb9ea60.webp The union says the deal should “set the tone” for engineer pay negotiations at Virgin’s main arm. ALBERT PEREZ However, on Thursday afternoon, VARA advised the commission it was discontinuing the case because it had opted to put a revised deal to a staff and there was “little to be gained” from pursuing the application at this time.
About 50 VARA engineers have been taking industrial action for the past six months to support catch-up pay after they were dealt wage freezes during the pandemic despite the FIFO service being Virgin’s only profitable business during that time.
Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association secretary Steve Purvinas said on Wednesday night the parties had reached a deal for an “immediate” 6 per cent pay rise backdated to July 1, a 6 per cent all-purpose allowance and another 1.5 per cent allowance for two years.“The allowances totalling 7.5 per cent compensate workers for the loss of backpay and a two-year wage freeze,” Mr Purvinas said.
“They [VARA] had to convince themselves the union hadn’t been successful and in order to do that they called the wage increase something else.”
Virgin has been contacted for comment.
VARA had initially proposed a 14.75 per cent pay rise (https://archive.md/o/AGGFS/https://www.afr.com/work-and-careers/workplace/oil-and-gas-rig-workers-get-8-6pc-pay-rise-20230717-p5dov8) over four years but the union said that failed to account for the two years of wage freezes.
Mr Purvinas said the three-year deal ending June 2025 should “set the tone” for Virgin’s 350 licensed engineers currently taking industrial action in support of a 7.8 per cent pay rise at the airline’s main arm.
VARA’s lawyers initially told the FWC that its two-years of failed bargaining with ALAEA meant the dispute was “intractable” and opposed further conciliation with FWC as futile.
The ACTU and the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry also intervened in the case, which was expected to set the threshold for what cases could go to arbitration.
However, VARA and ALAEA were still locked in negotiations after the airline made its arbitration application at the end of last month.
The subsequent wage outcome, which will go to a vote of the engineers over the coming weeks, meant Virgin lost grounds to argue the dispute was “intractable”.
On Wednesday, VARA’s lawyers sought to adjourn the arbitration case for at least a month to allow time for the ballot to proceed “in interests of a final attempt to determine whether employees are prepared to approve an enterprise agreement”.
However, ALAEA opposed any adjournment “on the basis that the fact of a revised position indicates that the entire application is misconceived and should be discontinued or dismissed”.
While VARA then agreed to discontinue its application, it indicated it would make a further application ion similar grounds if the vote was unsuccessful.
Mr Purvinas said that “we think our members will be satisfied with [the deal] which itself made the intractable issue vanish”


ENGINEERS DOING OK. WELL DONE.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I seem to remember doing quite a lot of work and hard study to get my ATPL licence and my numerous type ratings, but yeah, sure, we're not special
You're not. None of that is of any relevance to how much annual leave you get from your present employer. There's plenty of people who have done several consecutive years of hard study who don't get 6 weeks leave a year.

[MickG0105]

...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x985/screenshot_2023_07_19_at_10_48_42_cbcf1c39a5ae23c13cdff753a5 0b38511a7c727a.png
By what turn of financial wizardry are you able to represent "Estimated Underlying Profit before Tax of between $2,425 million - $2,475 million (https://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/displayAnnouncement.do?display=pdf&idsId=02668573)" as "new/confirmed/actual Net Income of 2.48bn AUD"? That guidance range is neither confirmed nor actual; it is, as it says on the tin, estimated. More to the point though, Underlying Profit before Tax is not the same as Net Income.

You don't do the unaudited numbers for Rex by any chance, do you?

[RealSatoshi]

By what turn of financial wizardry are you able to represent "Estimated Underlying Profit before Tax of between $2,425 million - $2,475 million (https://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/displayAnnouncement.do?display=pdf&idsId=02668573)" as "new/confirmed/actual Net Income of 2.48bn AUD"? That guidance range is neither confirmed nor actual; it is, as it says on the tin, estimated. More to the point though, Underlying Profit before Tax is not the same as Net Income

You are correct - it is not Net Income :ok:

The point being that there is more to 'go around', if they were willing to share some of the proceeds with employees who've been left at the financial furnace, this while they rake it in from Joe Soap. Especially when they are able to reduce overall debt from 7.23bn AUD to an estimated 2.9bn AUD. A handsome 59.9% reduction in debt over 12 months makes for interesting reading when comparing their Asset/Debt ratio with their peers who are actually paying market related wages and increasing them as we speak.

Excluding the market update, there is a forecasted 55.7% outperformance by one airline over the other - this before the improved pilot contract has been accounted for...

[dragon man]

So will Qantas workers accept 9% for a 5 year deal?‘The wage cap is dead’: NSW public servants accept 4pc pay rise https://archive.md/1D0YR/4c45ed2a6463f264b7a4869bf61cbfb421bc1445.pngDavid Marin-Guzman (https://archive.md/o/1D0YR/https://www.afr.com/by/david-marin-guzman-gr047a)Workplace correspondentJul 21, 2023 – 12.19pm
Save

ShareThe NSW public sector union has agreed to a 4 per cent pay rise for more than 80,000 public servants, marking the effective end of the state’s decades-long wage cap.
The Public Service Association is the first union to accept the Minns government’s pay offer, with more than 120,000 nurses and health workers voting on (https://archive.md/o/1D0YR/https://www.afr.com/policy/economy/nsw-offers-4-5-per-cent-wage-increase-for-nurses-police-teachers-20230605-p5de1x)it amid complaints from some members that the decade-high increase amounts to a real wage cut. https://archive.md/1D0YR/2a80d32f1b8cff19aaa2864e8c4e0fa5300d4af8.webp NSW Industrial Relations Minister Sophie Cotsis: “The wages cap is dead.” James Alcock Together with the compulsory 0.5 per cent increase in superannuation, the one-year pay deal is estimated to cost the state budget $618 million.
NSW Industrial Relations Minister Sophie Cotsis said that the government’s pay offer had meant the previous government’s 3 per cent wages cap is “obsolete”.
“The Liberal-National’s wages cap eroded trust between essential workers and government, suppressed wages and led to the staffing crisis. The wages cap is dead,” she said. “The people of NSW deserve world-class public services. We will continue to keep people at the heart of all of our work.”
The PSA deal will cover public servants across all government departments and agencies, prison officers, park rangers, school support staff, child protection workers, case workers, Rural Fire Service employees and State Emergency Service employees.
The union formally accepted the wage offer at the NSW Industrial Relations Commission (IRC) on Thursday following majority member support, with the increase to get backdated to July 1.
While 4 per cent is below the March Consumer Price Index of 5.1 per cent, it is the biggest pay increase for NSW public sector employees in more than a decade.
It comes as state governments are revising their wage caps in the face of high inflation, with Queensland paying out 6 per cent increases including CPI bonuses and Victoria revising its wage cap from 1.5 per cent to 3 per cent. (https://archive.md/o/1D0YR/https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/it-s-a-disgrace-unions-declare-war-on-dan-andrews-over-wage-cap-20230404-p5cxus)
The Reserve Bank has cited state wage caps as one of the inhibitors to overall wage growth, but has also cautioned against excessive pay rises out of concerns they could perpetuate high inflation.
Earlier this month, the Minns government offered the Health Services Union a $3500 increase – equating to pay rises of 4.5 per cent to 8.5 per cent depending on wage levels – for hospital cleaners, security officers, administration or wards workers.
The HSU, which had has threatened stoppages in support of a 6 per cent pay rise, is still polling its 74,000 members on whether to take the $3500 increase or accept a flat 4 per cent.
HSU NSW secretary Gerard Hayes said that the voting would end next Friday but was “pretty split - it’s not far off 50-50”.
He said the pay rise meant those under $90,000 - the majority of union members - would get pay rises above 4 per cent while those earning more would get less. However, the HSU will run work value cases to increase award rates for those on higher salaries.
The NSW Nurses and Midwives Association is set to poll its 50,000 public hospital members over the next two weeks on whether to accept a 4 per cent pay rise.
NMA state secretary Shaye Candish said that the union had not taken a position on the proposal but that “members broadly are not happy with the 4 per cent pay offer”.
NSW Teachers Federation president Angelo Gavrielatos said his union’s award did not expire until the end of the year. Nevertheless, it had been negotiating with the government since the election and had set a deadline for an outcome by July 31.
“We’ve made it very clear to the government that it needs to stop dragging its feet to an outcome, noting the severity of teacher shortages are still impacting schools greatly,” he said.
The government is still to formally remove the wages cap, which is legislated and currently at 3 per cent.
It is awaiting a report from the industrial relations taskforce, headed by former Fair Work Commission deputy president Anna Booth and former NSW IRC president Roger Bolan, to come up with a “modern industrial relations framework” to replace the wages cap. The taskforce is due to report back by the end of the year.
The public servant pay deal is expected to compensate public servants for the next 12 months until the new framework is implemented

[No upgrade]

Imagine the Australian aviation industry today if AIPA and AFAP considered that over the past few decades of negotiating.

No comparison between US and Australian pilots. They’ve had scope for over 30 years. The red tie brigade doesn’t really cut it. No intelligence or substance. Their back up plan to sign off on b scales for a lollipop and 3%

[MickG0105]

You are correct - it is not Net Income :ok:

Probably would have been best to have left it there.

... Especially when they are able to reduce overall debt from 7.23bn AUD to an estimated 2.9bn AUD. A handsome 59.9% reduction in debt over 12 months makes for interesting reading ...
Actually, not interesting reading at all. You have managed to mangle yet another pair of different financial measures; this time Total Debt and Net Debt, two different things. Qantas's FY22 Net Debt was $3.9 billion.

Fess up now, you are Rex's numbers guy, aren't you.

[MalcolmReynolds]

I don't get it at all. I fly a plane. Numbers $$$ aren't my thing. Its all BULL****! ALL OF IT!

[dragon man]

Pilots at FedEx Express have rejected a tentative agreement to amend their contract, which would have increased pay by up to 30% over the five-year term, the Air Line Pilots Association announced Monday.

The labor deal was voted down by a margin of 57% to 43%. FedEx employs nearly 6,000 pilots. FedEx and union negotiators will now have to work on developing a new labor deal.

"Our members have spoken and we will now regroup and prepare for the next steps. In the coming weeks, the FedEx ALPA leadership will meet to establish a timeline for assessing pilot group priorities moving forward. FedEx pilots remain unified and that will drive a new path that will help produce an agreement that all FedEx pilots will be proud to support," said Capt. Chris Norman, the FedEx ALPA chair.

"The tentative agreement voting results have no impact on our service as we continue delivering for our customers around the world," FedEx said in a statement. "The parties will return to negotiations under the supervision of the National Mediation Board. While we are disappointed in these voting results,

FedEx will continue to bargain in good faith with our pilots to achieve an agreement that is fair for all FedEx stakeholders."

The vote adds to uncertainty for FedEx at a time of heightened labor activism following the COVID pandemic. Pilots had authorized union leadership to initiate a strike vote before union negotiators reached agreement May 30 on a new deal. The rejection comes as rival UPS braces for a possible strike by 340,000 Teamsters workers that could begin Aug. 1 if the sides don't reach a resolution this week. UPS pilots have said they will walk off the job in solidarity with UPS truck drivers, parcel carriers and warehouse workers.

Pilots who voted against the FedEx deal have complained about weaker job protections, back pay, alternative pension options and that pay increases were margins. redex is also accelerating ne retirement oT older aircratt and temporarily parking others because of the slowdown in air volumes.

Management has said it plans to make the air network leaner, including by substituting truck service on certain connecting routes to enable consolidation and increase aircraft load factors, and relying more on outsourced air transport, especially for deferred parcels, routes with fluctuating demand and heavyweight freight. The company is also closing some pilot bases and its maintenance facility in Los Angeles.

The tentative labor agreement would have allowed FedEx Express to place more work during surge periods with third-party airlines without paying a higher penalty, but many pilots were concerned that language prohibiting outsourcing if FedEx reduces flight hours or furlough pilots wasn't strong enough. Under the existing arrangement, FedEx pays a financial penalty to the union that gets distributed to pilots if the company goes above the agreed cap on shipment volume that can be given to charter airlines. Opponents feared FedEx might simply not replace older pilots as they retire and then claim a need to hire partner carriers to meet demand.

Adding to concern was last week's hiring of former Atlas Air CEO John Dietrich to be FedEx's chief financial officer, who many accused in online chat rooms of undermining Atlas pilots by acquiring another cargo airline with weaker pilot benefits and shifting more work there until the pilot groups were merged years later. A majority of Atlas Air pilots were unhappy with their amended 2021 contract because terms they didn't like were forced on them through arbitration.

Many members also thought recovery pay, retroactively owed for the 18 months since the contract was eligible to be changed, was too low and disagreed with the union on how inflation was calculated.

In addition to a 30% pay increase, the pilot contract included a 30% increase to the legacy pension and a company-funded replacement for the legacy pension. ALPA pushed hard for ratitication, arguing the deal represented the largest investment in a pilot contract, on a per-capita basis, and that it substantially raised the bar on pilot retirement.

The vote was a rebuke to ALPA's leadership and the Master Executive Council, made up of officers from the pilot group. Some pilots celebrating the outcome on pilot forums called on union representatives to resign. A common theme among opponents is that the Master Executive Council tried very hard to sell a deal using fear of potential job losses without passage instead of allowing the agreement to sell itself.

"We will NOT vote in concessions. Not after Covid, not after the Billions executives have squeezed out through stock buybacks, not after our daytime flying passenger brethren at much less profitable carriers are ratifying true industry leading contracts that do not require special math," said one pilot who goes by the handle CloudSailor.

Other pilot groups have successfully completed new labor agreements.

Pilots at Delta Air Lines agreed in March to a deal that raises pay 34% over four years. A week ago, pilots at United Airlines agreed to a preliminary package that includes pay hikes up to 40.2% over four years. American Airlines last week boosted its offer for a new pilot contract by more than $1 billion to match the United deal on wage scales and other benefits. The original

American deal gave pilots a 40% raise over the four-year term.

Pilots at Hawaiian Airlines and all-cargo operator Amerijet also finalized contracts that gave pilots large pay hikes

[MickG0105]

Generally accepted etiquette would be to post either an acknowledgement of the source (eg Freightwaves.com FedEx pilots reject new labor deal, Eric Kulisch, Monday, July 24, 2023) or a link (https://www.freightwaves.com/news/fedex-pilots-reject-new-labor-deal#:~:text=Pilots%20at%20FedEx%20Express%20have,FDX)%20emp loys%20nearly%206%2C000%20pilots.) to the source when pasting someone else's work.

[dragon man]

Generally accepted etiquette would be to post either an acknowledgement of the source (eg Freightwaves.com FedEx pilots reject new labor deal, Eric Kulisch, Monday, July 24, 2023) or a link (https://www.freightwaves.com/news/fedex-pilots-reject-new-labor-deal#:~:text=Pilots%20at%20FedEx%20Express%20have,FDX)%20emp loys%20nearly%206%2C000%20pilots.) to the source when pasting someone else's work.


Yes teacher

[megan]

From Avweb.Young pilots are increasingly putting golden moments above gold stripes and that could mean more delays and cancellations for passengers. The Regional Airline Association first flagged the issue of first officers avoiding promotion and said up to 20 percent of its members’ flights were canceled because of the captain shortage. The promotion can be unappealing because it often results in life-disrupting commutes and unpredictable schedules. Now the majors are reporting a similar trend, and the numbers are significant.According to Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/united-airlines-grapples-with-pilots-avoiding-captains-chair-2023-07-18/), there are almost 1,000 unfilled captain positions at United Airlines and Dennis Tajer, the president of the Allied Pilots Association at American Airlines, said twice as many right-seaters are resisting the shift to the left seat than seven years ago. He said about 7,000 FOs had avoided promotion in that time. The airlines are addressing the issue with quality-of-life enhancements in contracts like scheduling changes to try to avoid the four- and five-day grinds that some junior captains face and bonus pay to compensate for the misery.

United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby said lifestyle enhancements were a significant part of the $9 billion contract offer the airline has made to its pilots, and American Airlines has now increased the package it’s offering its pilots. The company announced on Sunday it has sweetened the pot by $1 billion to $9 billion and most of that is going into working conditions improvements.

[Xeptu]

Now I'm retired I can tell you it's definately a noose around your neck once you are locked in. Most industries are the same. It comes down to how high you swing.

[RealSatoshi]

Fess up now, you are Rex's numbers guy, aren't you.
No...not (yet), but I am the Call Centre guy who runs the numbers while the Boss is away...

So a 26% Net Debt reduction over 12 months is only ½ handsome reading...like someone's brother's sister :E

[Track5milefinal]

Aus operators must be sweating bullets cringing at the thought of US inspired union action in this part of the world.

Pay peanuts get monkeys, long live the E3!

[PoppaJo]

Pay more, or we’re on the next plane out, say Pilots (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/pilots-demand-more-pay-from-airlines-as-many-head-to-the-us-where-wages-are-higher/news-story/2bdcb2658fd1d3bf2c3e90122d7e3049?amp)

[brokenagain]

Behind a paywall. Any chance of pasting in the article?

[dragon man]

Pilots demand more pay from airlines as many head to the US where wages are higherhttps://archive.md/3nRoB/0378d2fcad84bb3385a40585298163dca9601199.jpg
A global pilot shortage is already starting to bite airlines.data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7

By ROBYN IRONSIDE (https://archive.md/o/3nRoB/https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/robyn-ironside)
4:37PM JULY 27, 2023






Australia’s airlines have been placed on notice that they need to pay pilots more to keep them, and enhance the profession’s appeal to young people.
The Australian Federation of Air Pilots (https://archive.md/o/3nRoB/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/pilots-blast-airspace-management-as-critically-deficient-amid-air-traffic-controller-sickies/news-story/cd8b473b06c1c46d630d86e6c0a024ee%23:~:text=Pilots%20say%20ai rspace%20management%20in,that%20have%20them%20flying%20blind .) said that in the past year, more than 1000 pilots had been issued with visas to work in the US where airlines were offering $100,000 sign-on bonuses and handsome packages.
AFAP president Louise Pole said locally, smaller airlines such as Rex and Bonza were already feeling the pinch which would become more prevalent as pilots headed abroad.
“We’re very aware of quite large numbers of Australian pilots who’ve already left to go overseas,” Ms Pole said.
“In the US we have numbers of over 1000 who’ve been issued visas in the last year and countries such as China are starting to pick back up again.
“Pilots are taking that work because they are literally much better paid than they are in Australia, so it is time for the Australian companies to acknowledge and admit there is a pilot shortage and wages and conditions need to improve.”
The warning came as Qantas and Virgin Australia pilots prepared to begin negotiations for new enterprise bargaining agreements.
After accepting pay cuts to help the airline out of administration, Virgin Australia pilots were expected to seek significant increases to bring them back into line with their peers.
Qantas pilots were considered less likely to head overseas due to the career path the airline offered, and the fact pay rates were generally the highest in Australia.
However, the group was understood to have lost a number of pilots from its Network Aviation and National Jet Systems operations.
https://archive.md/3nRoB/f7e3e6d4c795a4ee744588b786e6bb2376b63f23.webp Australian and International Pilots Association president Tony Lucas. Rex announced on Thursday its own pilot workforce had just signed a new deal, noting “almost three-quarters” of the pilot body supported it.
Close to a third of Rex’s fleet of Saab 340s are still grounded, however, due to a shortage of pilots (https://archive.md/o/3nRoB/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/rex-stuck-in-the-red-due-to-pilot-engineer-shortage-and-a-slowdown-in-business-travel/news-story/ca68da711798e9eb44d1235c408e6c1d) to fly the 34-seat aircraft.
The shortage of pilots was blamed for a reduction in frequencies to nine regional routes, and the suspension of the Mildura-Adelaide route.
Ms Pole said most of the pilots heading overseas were in the “early phase of their career” which would have an impact as more pilots retired.
“The other issue is people aren’t training to be pilots as much as they used to. People don’t want to be pilots anymore,” she said.
“It’s quite a complex reason. There’s the expense involved in the training and the commitment but mostly it’s the working conditions.”
She said that “once upon a time” pilots were considered to be very well paid professionals but now many other jobs offered similar remuneration without the requirement for shift work, night work and being away from home.
“It makes people think ‘why do I need to do that when I can work nine to five and have every weekend off’. So there needs to be some compensation for that,” Ms Pole said.
Australian and International Pilots Association (https://archive.md/o/3nRoB/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-promises-extra-capacity-will-put-downward-pressure-on-airfares/news-story/45a61f66390772ea03f591af86ac094a) president Tony Lucas said a recent internal engagement survey conducted by Qantas found most pilots did not feel valued or respected.
He said the sense of security pilots used to feel, had been eroded through the turmoil of Covid-19 and industrial threats to outsource their jobs.
“US airlines are offering longer-term career pathways with better remuneration and that’s becoming increasingly attractive to Australian pilots,” Mr Lucas said.
“Anecdotally we hear that when Australian pilots move to work for carriers in the US they are often made to feel like an integral and highly valued part of the organisation rather than just another business unit.”
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has previously said the airline was immune from any shortage of pilots because it was the airline most pilots wanted to work for.

A pilot training academy at Toowoomba in Queensland opened in January 2020 also helped ensure a pipeline of talent for Qantas, with the airline offering 50 scholarships over the next five years

[morno]

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has previously said the airline was immune from any shortage of pilots because it was the airline most pilots wanted to work for.

Ahh the arrogance. He won’t be around to see the days when the pilot shortage will affect Qantas, but that day will come. Maybe when he can’t go anywhere on staff travel he might change his mind.

[BravoSierraLima]

Joyce is right that Qantas mainline will never be short of pilots. But the jet subsidiaries and Alliance is where the growth is being targeted. Without any real improvement in pay and conditions, that growth simply won’t happen.

The size of the A330 replacement order will be telling, now that the A321XLR is running into certification issues with its extra fuel tank.

It may have its range trimmed to 4000nm (or less) in the planned QF configuration, which takes some key cities out of play from the big 5 Aus ports.

[dragon man]

900 pilots in the next 5 years is the rumour. New orders for 787s and 350s to be announced at the annual results in August.

[aussieflyboy]

900 pilots in the next 5 years is the rumour. New orders for 787s and 350s to be announced at the annual results in August.

Don’t get too excited for your upgrade. 250 of that is for NJS and their new plane. 100 odd for Network and the additional 320/319s.

[High_To_Low]

incorrect aussieflyboy....those numbers are PURELY for Mainline

[morno]

Don’t get jealous Flyboy, maybe you can go join one of the subsidiaries instead and enjoy your substandard pay.

[Skippy69]

Interesting read there from the Australian, wonder how that will translate into all the upcoming EBA negotiations that are currently occuring and those in the near future nation wide.

[RealSatoshi]

Don’t get jealous Flyboy, maybe you can go join one of the subsidiaries instead and enjoy your substandard pay.
Ahem...QF 787 SO

Pretty sure I know my hourly rate :rolleyes:

$103 X 160 = $16,480 per bid period. $16,480 X 6.5 bid periods per year = $107,120 per year.

[Gnadenburg]

The grim reality is Australian jet operators are learning to live with attrition versus delivering an attractive COS that keeps pilots. Has there been a time in our history where pilots have left in the numbers being seen at the likes of Network, Alliance and Virgin?

If there’s not significant COS improvements soon it’s best you give up. Inflation will erode your wage further but the good news is, there’s always going to be plenty of jet jobs in Australia.

[morno]

Ahem...QF 787 SO

Might want to fact check that and come back when you know what you’re talking about buddy. I’m not a 787 SO and the hourly rates are completely different.

Big difference is that at the end of the year, I probably earned more than a subsidiary FO does, and I have virtually zero responsibility!

[neville_nobody]

Interesting read there from the Australian, wonder how that will translate into all the upcoming EBA negotiations that are currently occuring and those in the near future nation wide.

Nothing with change in this country. Management will just happily park jets against the fence and blame everyone else than have solid pilot salary increases.

[RealSatoshi]

I’m not a 787 SO and the hourly rates are completely different.
You're still a XXX SO...right...don't need to check anything as I was quoting your figures, not mine :ok:

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Nothing with change in this country. Management will just happily park jets against the fence and blame everyone else than have solid pilot salary increases.

I agree with you, but the problem for management is until now, they have been able to point to the (crappy) pay and conditions in other countries citing that as a benchmark. They can’t use that as a means by which they maintain downward pressure any more. Supply and demand, and the rising terms in every other jurisdiction means they will have to follow suit.

[Ollie Onion]

Having worked in the Qantas Group in various roles for quite a while now I have no faith that the future will be any brighter than the odd 3% payrise. Problem will be this 3% will always come at the cost of some terms and conditions that we will kiss goodbye to for ever. Seriously, the Group is about to announce its biggest profit in history which should cause some celebration or excitement amongst staff due to an expectation that staff will share in that. Sadly though the only discussion around the traps seems to be 'what reason will they give to screw us out of a decent payrise or bonus'. There in is the problem, Qantas does not share in the good times,except for token payments, yet expects staff to share in the bad times through pay freezes or LWOP.

[Colonel_Klink]

Having worked in the Qantas Group in various roles for quite a while now I have no faith that the future will be any brighter than the odd 3% payrise. Problem will be this 3% will always come at the cost of some terms and conditions that we will kiss goodbye to for ever. Seriously, the Group is about to announce its biggest profit in history which should cause some celebration or excitement amongst staff due to an expectation that staff will share in that. Sadly though the only discussion around the traps seems to be 'what reason will they give to screw us out of a decent payrise or bonus'. There in is the problem, Qantas does not share in the good times,except for token payments, yet expects staff to share in the bad times through pay freezes or LWOP.

I have said here numerous times that QF group pilots need to start challenging this concept of the ‘QF wages policy’. It might get a bit nasty, but there has never been a better time for a pilot group to prevail. And once that happens, then there should be fairly clear positive onward affects to other groups. With multiple EAs open or about to be open (Eastern, Sunstate, Network, Short-haul, Long-haul) hopefully one (or better still, ALL) of these groups are happy to take up the challenge to QF IR!

[dragon man]

I have said here numerous times that QF group pilots need to start challenging this concept of the ‘QF wages policy’. It might get a bit nasty, but there has never been a better time for a pilot group to prevail. And once that happens, then there should be fairly clear positive onward affects to other groups. With multiple EAs open or about to be open (Eastern, Sunstate, Network, Short-haul, Long-haul) hopefully one (or better still, ALL) of these groups are happy to take up the challenge to QF IR!


Great idea but it won’t happen.

[43Inches]

I have said here numerous times that QF group pilots need to start challenging this concept of the ‘QF wages policy’. It might get a bit nasty, but there has never been a better time for a pilot group to prevail. And once that happens, then there should be fairly clear positive onward affects to other groups. With multiple EAs open or about to be open (Eastern, Sunstate, Network, Short-haul, Long-haul) hopefully one (or better still, ALL) of these groups are happy to take up the challenge to QF IR!

First thing to do would be to unite under one union. Then you can negotiate as a group, rather than each subsidiary fighting the other for work.

[bazza stub]

I have said here numerous times that QF group pilots need to start challenging this concept of the ‘QF wages policy’. It might get a bit nasty, but there has never been a better time for a pilot group to prevail. And once that happens, then there should be fairly clear positive onward affects to other groups. With multiple EAs open or about to be open (Eastern, Sunstate, Network, Short-haul, Long-haul) hopefully one (or better still, ALL) of these groups are happy to take up the challenge to QF IR!

What!?!? I thought it was Nat Jet pilots who took it up the arse and ruined the whole industry a few years back. Well Fark me! Maybe this united front thing has merit.

[dr dre]

Don’t get too excited for your upgrade. 250 of that is for NJS and their new plane. 100 odd for Network and the additional 320/319s.

Nope - the 900 is definitely for mainline only. Recruiting about 16 per month atm.

That is only to cover expected retirements, expansion of flying and the first 12 A350s and 20 A321s in the next 4 years. That doesn’t include any additional 787/350/321 orders which almost certainly be made in the next few months.

[RealSatoshi]

Passed on by a friend, the AFAP 'Update for Qantas Group Pilots' makes for painful reading and provides insight into the IR tactics for SHRINKFLATION in the workplace:

Give Us MORE for LESS or ...:=

​​​​​​Update for Qantas Group Pilots

Qantas Pilot Council

Last year Qantas took the unprecedented step of demanding the Qantas Short-Haul pilots agree to a variation to their enterprise agreement otherwise Qantas would explore giving the new A320 family aircraft (the replacement for the existing B737 fleet) to another pilot group. Under the variation Qantas demanded various concessions, such as removing the geographical box which historically defined short-haul flying within Qantas and the removal of a range of work rules or rostering provisions, thereby primarily relying on the FRMS instead. Qantas offered no salary increases or improvements in exchange for these concessions. It did however state it would provide the first 20 x A321-XLR aircraft. These aircraft are larger, more efficient and with a longer range than the existing B737 aircraft. The aircraft also do not arrive until after the current agreement and its variation expire. The varied agreement nominally expires on 31 August 2023 and formal negotiations are expected to commence shortly.

The Qantas Long-Haul Agreement was voted on and approved at the start of the Covid-19 pandemic. In this negotiation Qantas explicitly stated that the new ultra-long range A350 aircraft (also yet to arrive) would be provided to a separate employing entity and not existing Qantas Long-Haul pilots if the proposed agreement was not approved. This agreement was approved on 28 April 2020 and expires 4 years from approval on 28 April 2024.

The new aircraft orders and fleet transitions across Qantas Short-Haul and Long-Haul are driving an enormous amount of recruitment and training events planned over the next 5 years. Figures which the AFAP have seen show recruitment of 1039 pilots and 3440 training events at Qantas in the period FY23 to FY27. These recruitment and training requirements are largely of Qantas’ own making. Aircraft orders and replacement programs have large lead times and need careful planning. The volume of training events and constraints in training resources does not excuse it but it does help to explain why Qantas is currently in litigation over attempting to employ direct entry second officers onto the A380 over the top of existing pilots in lesser paid or less desirable classifications in order to reduce subsequent training events.

In summary Qantas has two agreements which are due to expire relatively shortly. Both these agreements provided limited benefits (no benefits in the case of the variation) and were made under specific threats of giving new and/or replacement aircraft to other pilot groups if they were not voted up. The aviation environment has changed dramatically since the agreements were made. Pilot recruitment is extremely tight across the world and inflation has risen significantly in recent years. Despite this, Qantas IR has advised that it intends to maintain its current wages policy. This means that Qantas pilots will still be expected to take a two-year wage freeze followed by 3% increases.

National Jet Systems Council

National Jet Systems (NJS) was bought by Qantas at the start of the pandemic. Similar to the approach taken in the Qantas Short-Haul variation negotiation, Qantas was explicit that if the NJS pilots did not agree to the changes they proposed in the agreement that they would not receive the A220 aircraft (the replacement aircraft for the aging B717 fleet). The concessions which Qantas sought again included a removal of various rostering protections or work rules in favour of a reliance on the FRMS. Again, the A220 is a more sophisticated and efficient aircraft which Qantas determined warranted no additional remuneration to fly.

Since the agreement came into operation a large number of NJS pilots have left the business to pursue other opportunities. The pilot group has now dropped to approximately 150 pilots. This is manageable in the current environment because the number of B717 aircraft in operation has dropped from around 20 to 15 aircraft. With a sub-standard agreement NJS is and will continue to experience difficulties in recruiting suitable pilots. This is not impacting the operation right now as the first A220 are yet to be delivered but will create enormous pressures as the 29 x A220 aircraft announced for NJS start to arrive (initially it was 20 aircraft but a further 9 aircraft have been announced as going to NJS). This means that NJS will need to rapidly grow from approximately 150 x B717 pilots to 350 x A220 pilots in the next few years, again necessitating a large recruitment and training program. Initially the training will be for existing B717 pilots transitioning to the A220 as the B717 phase out and the A220 phase in. From September 2024 the recruitment and training of approximately 200 external pilots to crew the additional A220 aircraft will commence.

As a sign of the impending recruitment needs and Qantas’ disregard for Australian pilots, Qantas has recently sought approval of a visa program known as a Labour Agreement to attract any already type rated A220 pilots to Australia from overseas. This is a desperate measure and unlikely to yield much success given the small pool of A220 pilots globally, other attractive overseas opportunities and the below market conditions provided under the current NJS agreement. The agreement is not due to expire until 30 June 2026.

Sunstate and Eastern Pilot Councils

Both the Eastern and Sunstate pilot groups approved “roll-over agreements” during the pandemic. These agreements expired on 31 December 2022.

The approach taken by these groups was to get the Qantas wage freeze out of the way and secure the applicable Qantas bonus payment and 3% payments before returning to the bargaining table in better negotiating conditions. Negotiations have been taking place however Qantas IR is proving very resistant of any significant improvements. This is despite serious problems with pilot attraction and retention. Sunstate and Eastern are currently running at full training capacity with 8 x new FOs being trained every 8 weeks for the foreseeable future.

To ameliorate the significant attraction and retention issues Eastern and Sunstate have also applied for a Labour Agreement to provide 12 experienced pilots and 3 sim instructors per year for the next five years from overseas. Again, similar to NJS, we do not believe that they will attract anywhere near the numbers they are seeking while other attractive overseas options remain on offer and Eastern and Sunstate are paying such low wages.

Embarrassingly, as a result of higher than usual Award increases related to inflation and the Qantas wages policy including a two-year wage freeze, we have now encountered the scenario of junior FOs receiving less remuneration than they would receive under the safety-net Award. Despite this Qantas IR’s current approach is to simply “band-aid” the lowest classifications and not provide significant improvements across all classifications.

Network Aviation

Network Aviation has a fleet of 18 x F100 and 15 x A320 servicing the West Australian market.

The Network Aviation Pilots Enterprise Agreement 2016 expired in October 2020. Over the past seven years of operating under this agreement, Network Aviation has experienced substantial growth. The number of pilots and aircraft has more than doubled, alongside the addition of a new A320 fleet. This growth has not however been reflected in the pilot industrial space.

Without a suitable agreement in place and with salaries frozen under the 2016 Agreement, Network pilots' pay has decreased compared to the minimum Award equivalent. In 2022, approximately 62 pilots were paid below the minimum Award equivalent, with the majority experiencing a shortfall of around $7,200. This number increases every year a new enterprise agreement is delayed.

In late 2022, negotiations for a replacement agreement at Network Aviation commenced. Coming out of the pandemic the relevant pilot unions and Network Aviation came close to reaching agreement, however significant spikes in inflation, associated increases to the Award and company announcements of record profits meant that the proposal was unable to be supported by the pilot body and support was withdrawn by the pilot reps before even going to vote.

The Network pilot group and its pilot reps are currently revising their claims and engaging directly with the pilot group to ensure the revised claims reflect accurately the pilot views. The revised claims are expected to be provided to the company very shortly.

Qantas IR has already indicated that they will be taking a hard line and not agree to anything that costs more than their previous proposal. Given the historically uncompromising approach of Qantas IR it is likely that other legal options may need to be explored.

AFAP pilot membership numbers have doubled in the last year at Network Aviation. It is in light of this growth that they are seeking to form their own Pilot Council and join our expanding Executive Committee and Council structure.

Express Freighters Australia

The story of the last negotiation at Express Freighters Australia (EFA) is a sadly familiar one and again highlights the opportunistic approach to industrial relations within the Qantas Group.

EFA previously operated under a 2014 agreement which expired on 31 December 2018.

Negotiations commenced prior to the pandemic but were slow to progress. One of the key sticking points included that EFA announced plans to transition from a fleet of older B737 to larger A321 aircraft and to replace the 1 x B767 with 2 x A330 aircraft. As witnessed in other negotiations Qantas was not prepared to recognise these newer, larger and more efficient aircraft with salary increases. Like other negotiations, Qantas also essentially refused to negotiate over the pandemic and changed its 3% wages policy to a two-year wage freeze followed by 2% increases (later changed back to 3% wage increases). As time went on more and more EFA pilots started to receive less remuneration than they would be entitled to under the Award. This appalling situation developed because under the previous Fair Work legislation the Better Off Overall Test or BOOT is only conducted on approval of an agreement and not reviewed over its operation.

Nearing the end of the pandemic and sensing a possible opportunity, the company put a proposed agreement out to vote without the support of the AFAP or our pilot representatives. This proposal was voted down.

By this time the company proposal, which was still only barely above the Award, created the situation that many EFA pilots would be entitled to significant amounts of backpay. The company then put out a second agreement proposal for vote with only very minor improvements to the first offer. This time the company was more explicit that it would not improve the offer and any backpay would not be guaranteed in any future offers. Having also witnessed what had transpired with the Short Haul variation and the NJS agreement, the EFA pilot group voted up the second proposal and it was approved on 30 August 2022. This sub-standard agreement which was pushed through under the threat of removing backpay does not expire until 31 December 2024.

Jetstar Pilot Council

The story of the Jetstar Agreement 2019 which was finally approved on 23 December 2022 (just over 6 months ago) and expires on 21 November 2025 is a long and ultimately more successful one.

Negotiations for the current Jetstar agreement commenced before the expiry of the previous Jetstar agreement, the 2015 Jetstar Agreement, on 21 April 2019.

Having previously been frustrated by the Qantas Group approach to bargaining, the Jetstar pilot representatives were keen to progress bargaining as quickly as possible. The Qantas approach to bargaining commonly involves bargaining at a very slow pace in order to increase the amount of backpay at risk. The company can then use the threat of removing this backpay as leverage to get an agreement voted up.

In order to speed up bargaining the Jetstar pilots moved to taking protected industrial action (PIA) around the Christmas period of 2019/2020, approximately six months after the previous agreement’s expiry. This PIA included a range of bans and stop works which attracted significant media attention. The subsequent reduction in flying and drop in forward bookings over the traditionally busy Christmas period had a significant impact on Jetstar although we believe their claims of costing Jetstar approximately $30 million as reported in the annual report are inflated. At this time Jetstar also advised the pilot group that they were now ineligible for the $2000 record profit bonus which was contingent on accepting an enterprise agreement and “not causing harm”.

Over the course of 2022 the AFAP negotiators and Jetstar management began to make significant progress on a new agreement. The final agreement delivered considerable increases to the base salary (22.9%), DTA (22%) and the highline allowance (15.9%) over the life of the agreement. It also introduced a new and additional layover highline allowance and a range of other improvements. The details of the improvements and concessions made are contained in other AFAP briefings and on page 16 of the No.2 of the 2022 AIR PILOT magazine.

No agreement is perfect and every agreement needs to be judged in its industrial context. The AFAP and the Jetstar negotiators involved are very proud of the agreement which was achieved at Jetstar towards the end of last year. The improvements are significant and the real benefits have shown up in the pay packets and end of year tax summaries of the Jetstar pilots.

In terms of pilot recruitment, Jetstar is continuing grow significantly. As reported in Australian Aviation on 25 July 2023:

“Jetstar is set to hire more than 140 new pilots this year in a major recruitment drive.

The low-cost carrier is undergoing what it says is one of its biggest-ever pilot intakes, which will support new routes including Sydney to Rarotonga, Brisbane to Seoul and Melbourne to Fiji, as well as its push to improve reliability.”

Conclusion and Summary

The inescapable conclusion when assessing the Qantas Group approach to industrial relations is that they will do whatever they need to achieve the lowest possible cost agreement. Concepts of interest based bargaining and valuing employee engagement are misplaced when it comes to Qantas. Qantas understands power and will drive a very hard bargain when the opportunity presents. The AFAP understands this and realises that pilots need to take a similar approach and push for the best possible agreement when the opportunity presents.

We have entered a period when many of the factors that dictate which party is in a stronger bargaining position have begun to change. It is well publicised that pilots at United, Delta and American Airlines have recently achieved salary increases in the vicinity of 30-40%. A220 Captains at Delta are now reported to be receiving base salaries in the vicinity of US$310k. Our IFALPA colleagues at USALPA have shared US Department of Labour information confirming that over 1000 experienced Australian pilots have been attracted to US Carriers under their E3 Visa Scheme.

How long the high global demand for pilots will last is anyone’s guess. Qantas will hold off as long as possible waiting for the next inevitable downturn. They will drag their feet and try to appease demands with short-term bonus payments rather than permanent increases.

The real value of pilot wages has generally gone backwards in recent years and this needs to be addressed. Qantas continuing to play pilot groups off against each other, making threats and spreading fear needs to be called out.

[C441]

Where Qantas is concerned there are no Enterprise Agreements. They are all Enterprise Ultimatums and should be recognised as such….an E.U.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Holding the pilots to ransom by threatening to either withdraw backpay or refusing to allocate new types to the workforce if agreement is not reached doesn't sound like good faith bargaining. Has this ever been raised at the FWC? Might be time to call the bluff.

[dragon man]

Holding the pilots to ransom by threatening to either withdraw backpay or refusing to allocate new types to the workforce if agreement is not reached doesn't sound like good faith bargaining. Has this ever been raised at the FWC? Might be time to call the bluff.


The word I would use is blackmail, however Qantas pilots have only themselves to blame by constantly voting these agreements up.

[VHOED191006]

They should follow through with their threat when an agreement is voted down (whenever that will be). That will not go down well with the public. Despite what it may seem like in here, QF pilots are still highly regarded in our society. If you try to outsource such a job to another group, I suspect that there will be severe backlash, particularly if they're all from overseas.

[JPJP]

The varied agreement nominally expires on 31 August 2023 and formal negotiations are expected to commence shortly. [Longhaul] expires 4 years from approval on 28 April 2024. In summary Qantas has two agreements which are due to expire relatively shortly

Seems like the perfect opportunity really - Short haul slow rolls bargaining for nine months until the long haul agreement is due. Then PIA begins at both. It would be amusing to see the new CEO attempt to move the flying to one of the other amaaaaazing ‘group’ airlines. Apart from the obvious impracticality of doing so, some would consider it struck work. I certainly would.

[theheadmaster]

Passed on by a friend, the AFAP 'Update for Qantas Group Pilots' makes for painful reading and provides insight into the IR tactics for SHRINKFLATION in the workplace:

Give Us MORE for LESS or ...:=

You are right Satoshi, it does make for painful reading!

Interesting conclusion by the AFAP. They have a crack at AIPA for the standard and style of bargaining for the last couple of mainline EAs that are still the benchmark for pilot conditions in this country. They then go on to describe a series of EAs that are below the Award - that they were involved in bargaining for. They then describe the PIA tactic for Jetstar bargaining that was designed to 'speed up bargaining' that resulted in a three year delay in getting a deal. Meanwhile, the flawed strategy of AIPA saw mainline pilots get incremental pay rises through COVID and place them back at the bargaining table when the company is making record profits and (if you believe the posts here) a pilot shortage.

[RealSatoshi]

The word I would use is blackmail...
No legal expert, but in layman's terms, could there be grounds for a Test Case at the next 'event'? :sad:

Blackmail

Blackmail is an offence under section 87 of The Crimes Act 1958. There are five elements that the prosecution must prove to find a person guilty of blackmail.
These are:

A demand was made;
The demand was made with a view to bring about a gain for the accused or another, or with intent to cause a loss to another;
The demand was made with menace;
The accused intended the recipient of the demand to fear that the threat would be carried out unless the recipient complied with the demand;
The demand was unwarranted.

Blackmail can attract a penalty of up to 15 years imprisonment.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1690x646/screenshot_2023_08_02_at_20_45_35_81ec0d67a30e5c37332e449298 54b8b23678485c.png

[Chronic Snoozer]

"The accused intended the recipient of the demand to fear that the threat would be carried out unless the recipient complied with the demand"

Has the 'threat' to withdraw backpay or not allocate new aircraft to mainline ever been put in writing or presented to the bargaining representatives officially? Or has it simply been a series of rumours and innuendo, implications and suggestions not sustained by correspondence? (he said, she said)

[RealSatoshi]

Has the 'threat' to withdraw backpay or not allocate new aircraft to mainline ever been put in writing or presented to the bargaining representatives officially? Or has it simply been a series of rumours and innuendo, implications and suggestions not sustained by correspondence? (he said, she said)

If not, that implies that the union(s) responded to and members voted on...a series of rumours and innuendo, implications and suggestions not sustained by correspondence?

There is a strong case that in the very near future, authorisation is sought (read insisted), for all union interactions with a company to be officially recorded (audio) so as to prevent veiled threats and innuendos from going unchecked :cool:

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Holding the pilots to ransom by threatening to either withdraw backpay or refusing to allocate new types to the workforce if agreement is not reached doesn't sound like good faith bargaining. Has this ever been raised at the FWC? Might be time to call the bluff.

When that concept was suggested to the unions during the “Strategic Imperatives” “negotiation” both unions involved said they were powerless against it, refused to query it at the FWC and barely stopped short of condoning the act. Apparently it’s ok to run your negotiations drug cartel style in Australia.

[theheadmaster]

Holding the pilots to ransom by threatening to either withdraw backpay or refusing to allocate new types to the workforce if agreement is not reached doesn't sound like good faith bargaining. Has this ever been raised at the FWC? Might be time to call the bluff.

Yes, the requirements for good faith bargaining have been tested. The threshold is extremely low. Pretty much all you have to do is 'to genuinely give consideration to the proposals put by a bargaining representative'. You do not have to agree to anything.

[Prop_Like_Pay]

The pilot profession is also one of the most heavily unionised, and pilot groups have a lot of power to put pressure for increased pay. It’s just about rediscovering that fizz and getting behind it as a cohesive, organised group.

[Beer Baron]

Has the 'threat' to withdraw backpay or not allocate new aircraft to mainline ever been put in writing or presented to the bargaining representatives officially? Or has it simply been a series of rumours and innuendo, implications and suggestions not sustained by correspondence? (he said, she said)
This was sent to all pilots by the Qantas International CEO:
We have informed AIPA (and are now informing you) that if we are unable to secure a new long-haul EBA10 with our pilots that meets the Sunrise investment case within Airbus’ timeframe, we will be left with no viable alternative but to have Sunrise flying performed by a new employment entity that can provide the cost base we need for this important business opportunity. (His bold, not mine)
This was followed by at least 6 FAQ’s that explicitly outlined their intention to give the flying to another entity and that we would never get another crack at it. Statement such as this one:
​​​​​​​we will be left with no viable alternative but to have Sunrise flying performed by a new employment entity that can. Any future Long Haul EBA will not include provision for Sunrise flying.
So yeah, we were directly and very clearly threatened. No rumours or innuendo required.

Another interesting tidbit from that email is the following excerpt, which shows that the S/O B-scale was fiercely resisted by AIPA and future pilots were not willingly “thrown under the bus” as some have asserted. Qantas had to invoke the nuclear option to get that over the line.
​​​​​​​The biggest stumbling block for AIPA appears to be our proposed pay rates for futureSecond Officers. This is a major contributor to making the Sunrise business case stack up and relates to jobs that would only exist if the project goes ahead. The remuneration for these future Second Officers is still highly competitive compared with the rest of the market and is significantly above what both Jetstar and Virgin Australia offer new hire Second Officers. It won’t affect any current pilots. But AIPA is implacably opposed to this component in particular

[Duck Pilot]

Reality is that pilots in general (there are a few exceptions) are treated like commodities in the Australian arena at the moment. I won’t elaborate on my opinion why, however apart from stating that pilots were treated a lot better when I joined the industry in the mid 80’s, then we had the 89 dispute that happened for a very good reason not that I’m a supporter of strike action.

One only needs to observe the reoccurring job advertisements by certain operators, to get an indication of what’s going on with the individual organisations, most of which are places with revolving doors as far as pilot retention is concerned. In some isolated cases I’m sure it’s a specific skills shortage that’s understandable in this climate, however when certain operators are advertising continuously for years for the same roles, it clearly indicates retention issues that’s directly attributed to salary, culture issues or certain individuals in positions of influence within the organisation.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Yes, the requirements for good faith bargaining have been tested. The threshold is extremely low. Pretty much all you have to do is 'to genuinely give consideration to the proposals put by a bargaining representative'. You do not have to agree to anything.

Nor does either side have to make concessions. There is however, the matter of capricious or unfair conduct.

[theheadmaster]

Nor does either side have to make concessions. There is however, the matter of capricious or unfair conduct.

The Fair Work website has some good information on bargaining requirements. Here is a link: https://www.fwc.gov.au/good-faith-bargaining#:~:text=The%20requirement%20in%20section%20228,to %20recognise%20a%20bargaining%20representative

Here is what it says regarding refraining from capricious or unfair conduct:
The requirement in section 228(1)(e) ('refraining from capricious or unfair conduct ...') is intended to cover a broad range of conduct. For example, conduct may be capricious or unfair if an employer:

fails to recognise a bargaining representative
does not permit an employee who is a bargaining representative to attend meetings or discuss matters relating to the terms of the proposed agreement with fellow employees
dismisses or engages in detrimental conduct towards an employee because the employee is a bargaining representative or is participating in bargaining, or
prevents an employee from appointing his or her own representative.[8]

Whether conduct is capricious or unfair can only be ascertained by an examination of all of the circumstances in a particular case.[9]Capricious is defined as 'guided by caprice; readily swayed by whim or fancy; inconstant' and caprice as 'an unaccountable change of mind or conduct…' in The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary as cited in Liquor, Hospitality and Miscellaneous Union v Foster's Australia Ltd.[10]

[soseg]

Beer Baron put it accurately.

Don't let facts on pprune get in the way of a good story. Mainline pilots had no choice.

Anyway. Can someone here show me one good EBA that AFAP have secured for it's members?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Beer Baron put it accurately.

Don't let facts on pprune get in the way of a good story. Mainline pilots had no choice.

Anyway. Can someone here show me one good EBA that AFAP have secured for its members?

Meanwhile over on another thread, a bunch of QF group employees, who also had no viable choice during their negotiation, are being accused of undermining the whole industry. Isn’t it time we became a cohesive pilot body and took the fight to the IR thugs? There is no time like right now!

[megan]

Can someone here show me one good EBA that AFAP have secured for it's membersOur group had a good one back in the seventies, though the AFAP was just the rubber stamp to have what the company and pilots had agreed ratified. We later kicked the AFAP to the curb after threats were made.

[soseg]

Our group had a good one back in the seventies, though the AFAP was just the rubber stamp to have what the company and pilots had agreed ratified. We later kicked the AFAP to the curb after threats were made.

How old are you?

[megan]

80........

[framer]

How old is soseg?

[soseg]

How old is soseg?

I'm 10. Congratulations to anyone who has argued with me the last few months. You've been arguing with a kid who plays minecraft and worships tiktok reels. You boomers look like idiots.

Mum is disconnecting my internet now. Goodnight

[bafanguy]

Something like this :sad:

American Airlines pilots will vote on new contract with 41.5% in pay raises (https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2023/07/07/american-airlines-pilots-will-vote-on-new-contract-with-415-in-pay-raises/)

The contract is effective for four years and will be amendable on 1 August 2027 - Pilots would be back paid, based on eligible earnings:
2020 ---> 4%
2021 ---> 4%
2022 ---> 14%
2023 ---> 21%
2024 ---> 5%
2025 ---> 4%
2026 ---> 4%
2027 ---> 3%

In 2024, pilots would receive a 17% 401(k) contribution, and in 2026, the contribution would increase to 18%

That is a 41.5% real earnings boost from 2023 to 2027 or, considering the back pay, a 74.5% real earnings boost from 2020 to 2027 - not accounting for the boost in company 401(k) contributions :ouch:


This website might offer some more info on US airline pilot pay if it's germane to discussions in this thread:

https://www.pilotpaycompare.com/

[cxflog]

This website might offer some more info on US airline pilot pay if it's germane to discussions in this thread:

https://www.pilotpaycompare.com/
A shame there’s not more US airline options to compare between but a great outlook nonetheless.

[bafanguy]

A shame there’s not more US airline options to compare between but a great outlook nonetheless.


You can select other airlines in the window down the page a bit.

[No upgrade]

Mainline pilots had no choice

You had a choice. You made a choice.

For 12 shiny metals and a biscut.

There is a reason for US airline pilot conditions.

[dragon man]

Robyn Burnside. The Australian Oantas cabin crew have joined pilots in their opposition to the airline's planned use of two Finnair aircraft to operate flights from Sydney to Singapore and Bangkok later this year.

Oantas will wet lease two A330s from the Finnish carrier, which has seen its own flying curtailed by the war in Ukraine.

Under the arrangement, Finnair pilots will operate the flights, and a statement from Finnair said cabin crew would be provided by its "partners" in Singapore and Bangkok.

The Flight Attendants Association of Australia said it was originally told Finnair cabin crew were facing job losses due to reduced flying and agreed to Qantas's request to support the plan.

But the FAAA had now learned Finnair's "partners" are in fact Asian-based labour hire companies currently advertising for crew for the Qantas-Finnair flights.

FAAA industrial officer Steven Reed said they felt misled by Qantas and questioned why Australian cabin crew could not be used on the flights instead.

"The lack of transparency around this issue is breathtaking. We were briefed on a commercial-in-confidence basis earlier in the year and the information we were given about saving the jobs of Finnair crew is inconsistent with what's happening in practice," Mr Reed said."We thought we were doing something to assistOantas to access more aircraft and save jobs and we find out that additional labour hire crew are being recruited in Asia to do work that should be done by Australians."He said crew employed through labour hire companies were typically paid less, and were subject to poorer conditions.

"Airlines around the world are driving down conditions of direct employees and offshoring their work where they can," Mr Reed said.

The move follows Oantas's decision to use New

Zealand cabin crew on Sydney-Auckland-New York flights that began in June.Mr Reed pointed out the NZ crew recently agreed to changes, which meant that after an 18-hour flight, they could rest for just 40 hours, instead of 50 before working again. "It simply creates a race to the bottom," he said.

"Flight attendants are fast becoming the coalminers of the 21st century."

The Australian and International Pilots Association previously spoke out about the wet lease arrangement with Finnair, describing it as akin to "Outsourcing"."Oantas's decision to wet lease two Finnair aircraft is shocking, bitterly disappointing and could have been avoided with more effective management decisions," AIPA president Tony Lucas said.

A Qantas spokeswoman said the flying on the Finnair aircraft was "never going to be done by been very upfront about that"

"But it will be done by Oantas crew for the following two years and we believed the FAAA chose not to oppose the overall deal for that reason.

"If the FAAA's position is that Qantas partners aren't allowed to source labour as they see fit, that feels a bit like overreach."

Since borders reopened and travel restarted, Qantas has recruited more than 2400 pilots and cabin crew and is continuing to train and recruit another 1000-plus.

Once the two-year wet lease deal ended, Qantas would use its own pilots and crew to operate the Finnair A330s, which would create about 184 jobs.

[RealSatoshi]

This was sent to all pilots by the Qantas International CEO:
We have informed AIPA (and are now informing you) that if we are unable to secure a new long-haul EBA10 with our pilots that meets the Sunrise investment case within Airbus’ timeframe, we will be left with no viable alternative but to have Sunrise flying performed by a new employment entity that can provide the cost base we need for this important business opportunity.

That right there sounds like a quantifiable Threat, if not already defined as Blackmail or even Extortion...(per definition)

The biggest stumbling block for AIPA appears to be our proposed pay rates for futureSecond Officers. This is a major contributor to making the Sunrise business case stack up and relates to jobs that would only exist if the project goes ahead.

Let's be absolutely CLEAR - Any organisation that initiates a $3.2 billion project and states that the business case for such a project is anchored on a handful of junior employees taking a 17% Pay Cut, is either financially illiterate or most probably opportunistically Lying-Through-Their-Teeth :}

Imagine Christine Kilpatrick (Royal Melbourne Hospital CEO), telling her Radiographers that she will only buy the latest state-of-the-art INUMAC MRI Scanner if junior nurses agreed to a 17% Pay Cut...

Disgusting - Yes :mad:

[neville_nobody]

We have informed AIPA (and are now informing you) that if we are unable to secure a new long-haul EBA10 with our pilots that meets the Sunrise investment case within Airbus’ timeframe, we will be left with no viable alternative but to have Sunrise flying performed by a new employment entity that can provide the cost base we need for this important business opportunity.

All the best achieving that in the current Global Pilot Labor market with a new AOC.

[Hoosten]

Imagine Christine Kilpatrick (Royal Melbourne Hospital CEO), telling her Radiographers that she will only buy the latest state-of-the-art INUMAC MRI Scanner if junior nurses agreed to a 17% Pay Cut...

Pretty good analogy :ok:​​​​​​​

[Beer Baron]

All the best achieving that in the current Global Pilot Labor market with a new AOC.
Quite true in todays environment, however in March 2020 when the email was sent there were more than enough qualified pilots sitting around unemployed (or about to be). At least 2 local carriers devised whole business plans around scooping up cheap labour discarded due to the pandemic, so the threat felt very real.

[RealSatoshi]

The biggest stumbling block for AIPA appears to be our proposed pay rates for futureSecond Officers. This is a major contributor to making the Sunrise business case stack up and relates to jobs that would only exist if the project goes ahead.

Let's expand further on this and then acknowledge how everyone was hoodwinked - the agreed EBA indeed implemented a 24.7% Pay Cut for A380 Second Officers, who as far as memory serves, has absolutely nothing to do with Project Sunrise.

Net Result: The two biggest (eventual) frames in the LH fleet will have the lowest LH pay rate for SO's.

Well played then... :D

[RealSatoshi]

For those still searching for their real 'worth' on this oblate spheroid, here is an easy to read summary of where the high water line is today.

Sure, this is Australia and we know the clouds are different here...and houses more expensive :sad:

But, If a rising tide does not lift your boat...you are probably sinking, you just don't know it yet!
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1240x1753/united_american_delta_7cff31e5b84420ee197b81e04433ea941a5aef af.jpg

[Fonz121]

I’m tempted to give this gig away and go work for UPS.UPS driver pay and benefits deal in US to be worth $170,000 ($260KAud) a year, firm says
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66445496
The threat of a strike by the Teamsters union hit UPS in recent weeks, as customers diverted about one million packages per day to rival companies, costing the company about $200m in sales.

In a call to update investors on Tuesday, UPS said the deal reached with the Teamsters - expected to be approved by workers in a vote this month - would also weigh on its profits.

[ScepticalOptomist]

For those still searching for their real 'worth' on this oblate spheroid, here is an easy to read summary of where the high water line is today.

Sure, this is Australia and we know the clouds are different here...and houses more expensive :sad:

But, If a rising tide does not lift your boat...you are probably sinking, you just don't know it yet!
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1240x1753/united_american_delta_7cff31e5b84420ee197b81e04433ea941a5aef af.jpg

Aus Carrier:
1st year FO lowest paid widebody 2023 rate: $183/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 86.9hrs.

Top of scale (4th year) Capt widebody 2023 rate: $409/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 78.5hrs.

Don’t sell yourself short.

[krismiler]

Effectively QF are behaving like Norwegian in using lowly paid Asian cabin crew in place of nationals of their own country. Employed by a third party provider headquartered in a jurisdiction with less favourable labour laws. Jetstar got away with foreign cabin crews on their tag flights, how long before mainline try it on as well.

[RealSatoshi]

Over the last couple of months there's been a growing number of references made to the lack of CPI (+) adjustments in current and future Pilot EBA's.
It's been said that in Australia this will never happen, but yet we whale and groan at the lack of wage parity and the accelerating SHRINKFLATION of wages in the workplace - Do More...Get Less.

In fact, the Alliance Airlines Pilots' (Perth) Enterprise Agreement 2020 was found to contain a CPI clause - refer APPENDIX A Page 27.
The Annual Base Salary will be adjusted by the Australian Bureau of Statistics CPI...If the CPI released is a negative figure, the Company agrees not to decrease the Annual Base Salary.

What follows is an attempt to identify just how prevalent wage SHRINKFLATION in Australian Aviation has become. Some might find the data uncomfortable, while snowflakes might get close to melting point. Rest assured that all data used was obtained through publicly available sources and based on legitimate figures as filed with the Fair Work Commission.

In an attempt to prevent a typical 'mine is bigger than yours' slugfest, the most junior position and/or scale in each category was used - except QF Second Officer B-Scale :oh:

To do your own calculations with visual references, you can find a version of the RBA Inflation Calculator here: RBA Inflation Calculator (https://paycalculator.com.au)

Understanding the Data

EBA Base Date - The date at which a known EBA adjustment was implemented. Here we looked for a date that falls outside the CPI spike window (late 2020 to early 2023), as this lays the foundation for a representative EBA Actual Base Rate
EBA Actual Base Rate - The actual wage paid per category on the EBA Base Date
EBA Actual Rate August 2023 - The actual wage paid per category during August 2023
RBA Inflation Adjusted Base Rate August 2023 - Using the RBA Inflation Calculator which considers Historic CPI Inflation we can calculate what the EBA Actual Base Rate should be today, if correctly adjusted for Historic CPI Inflation
EBA ▲ Inflation Adjusted August 2023 - Difference between EBA Actual Rate August 2023 and RBA Inflation Adjusted Base Rate August 2023. This is the first indication whether your Real Wage has increased or decreased as a result of Historic CPI Inflation
▲ % - Real Wage increase or decrease reflected as a %
EBA Actual Rate June 2025 - For those who have an EBA that runs to at least June 2025, the actual wage to be paid per category during June 2025
RBA Inflation Adjusted Base Rate June 2025 - Using the RBA Inflation Calculator which considers Historic CPI Inflation as well as RBA Economic Outlook modelling, we can calculate what the EBA Actual Base Rate should be during June 2025, if correctly adjusted for Historic CPI Inflation and future CPI modelling. For those who do not have EBA's running to June 2025, this provides a quantifiable indication where your negotiated EBA Actual Base Rate should be, so as to not suffer wage SHRINKFLATION and a loss of Real Wages after the fact.
EBA ▲ Inflation Adjusted June 2025 - Difference between EBA Actual Rate June 2025 and RBA Inflation Adjusted Base Rate June 2025
▲ % - Projected June 2025 Real Wage increase or decrease reflected as a %

As expected, the data makes for some painful reading...

It is important to note that the data can not determine whether the EBA Actual Base Rate (starting wage) for a specific company and category is a fair or market related one, as it only uses this as a forward projection. To fix the EBA Actual Base Rate to a more representative and market related one, as has been happening through big adjustments in the US, is a first order function of EBA negotiations. Once the EBA Actual Base Rate is 'repaired' to a market related and relative one, then the second order function of EBA negotiations is to ensure future wage SHRINKFLATION and loss of Real Wages stays in check and remains guarded against - it is for the latter that this prediction method is very useful and data driven.

For those who already have EBA's running to June 2025...well, at least you can inform your family now that you expect your real earnings (read buying power) to reduce by (X)% in the next 24 months, this if the RBA's Economic Outlook modelling is sound and stays the predicted course :sad:

Here's the data...please don't choke on your stale crew meal while reading this :}

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x897/screenshot_2023_08_10_at_17_48_48_ab84207eaabde814e434df15aa 70f2c859d901ae.png

[MickG0105]

The data analyst's adage; if you have an anomalous line in the results (eg Jetstar First Officer (787)) then there's almost certainly an error, either input or calculation.

For Jetstar First Officer (787), you've taken Wide Body Single Deck First Officer Level 1 from the 2015 EBA for the 1 July 2018 actual but then used the First Officer Level 2 data from the 2019 EBA for the August 2023 actual. First Officer Level 1 is 55 percent of a Captain's base whereas First Officer Level 2 is 60 percent. That difference is why the Jetstar FO line stands out.

Someone familiar with the crew structures at Jetstar might be able to shed some light on why there is no Wide Body Single Deck First Officer Level 1 scale in the 2019 EBA.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Effectively QF are behaving like Norwegian in using lowly paid Asian cabin crew in place of nationals of their own country. Employed by a third party provider headquartered in a jurisdiction with less favourable labour laws. Jetstar got away with foreign cabin crews on their tag flights, how long before mainline try it on as well.

Haven’t they tried Altara at QF? Not a foreign sub contractor, but still a step in that direction.

[RealSatoshi]

For Jetstar First Officer (787), you've taken Wide Body Single Deck First Officer Level 1 from the 2015 EBA for the 1 July 2018 actual but then used the First Officer Level 2 data from the 2019 EBA for the August 2023 actual. First Officer Level 1 is 55 percent of a Captain's base whereas First Officer Level 2 is 60 percent. That difference is why the Jetstar FO line stands out.

Correct, and as set up from the start, the aim was to compare the 'growth' of the lowest scale per category - Wide Body First Officer Level 1 no longer exists in the latest EBA.

The initial response was that it was negotiated away as a first order function to improve the overall EBA Actual Base Rate - a positive step nonetheless, if this is indeed the case, with results to prove.

[Icemansteeve]

Aus Carrier:
1st year FO lowest paid widebody 2023 rate: $183/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 86.9hrs.

Top of scale (4th year) Capt widebody 2023 rate: $409/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 78.5hrs.

Don’t sell yourself short.

I would highlight a couple of points:

The starting hourly rate at US carriers is effectively a 'training' wage, expect 2nd year F/O to be closer to $190 USD, from memory.
To gain a full appreciation of how much you've been sold short, put the Aus hourly rates into USD, or vice versa.

[ScepticalOptomist]

I would highlight a couple of points:

The starting hourly rate at US carriers is effectively a 'training' wage, expect 2nd year F/O to be closer to $190 USD, from memory.
To gain a full appreciation of how much you've been sold short, put the Aus hourly rates into USD, or vice versa.



Same can be said for the year 2 onwards pay at the Aus carrier quoted. Was comparing apples to apples.

Conversion isn’t useful - it’s the currency in the country you live that’s important.

Of course the US airlines are booming right now - no arguments there. Was pointing out that not all airlines in Aus are paying poorly.

I have many mates who work as pilots in the US. They have been around long enough to know it’s a cycle, and they’ve been through a few of them.
In their words “the pay they’re getting now doesn’t make up for the multiple furloughs and multiple hits to their 401Ks over the years.”

[Icemansteeve]

Same can be said for the year 2 onwards pay at the Aus carrier quoted. Was comparing apples to apples.

Conversion isn’t useful - it’s the currency in the country you live that’s important.

Of course the US airlines are booming right now - no arguments there. Was pointing out that not all airlines in Aus are paying poorly.

I have many mates who work as pilots in the US. They have been around long enough to know it’s a cycle, and they’ve been through a few of them.
In their words “the pay they’re getting now doesn’t make up for the multiple furloughs and multiple hits to their 401Ks over the years.”
Yeah look, points taken.

Although the conversion certainly helps when I go and pay my mortgage.

[43Inches]

Local currency compared to local living costs is the important factor, however most of us understand that in general living costs in the USA are lower than in Australia. So if the US pilots are being paid much better than Australian pilots after conversion, then they are doing much, much better when compared to living costs. So the point still stands that Australia is far behind them in real terms.

Aus Carrier:
1st year FO lowest paid widebody 2023 rate: $183/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 86.9hrs.

Top of scale (4th year) Capt widebody 2023 rate: $409/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 78.5hrs.

PS the US "smallest aircraft" hourly rate for the US airlines is an A220 or A319, not a widebody. The US "largest aircraft" payrates are for 787/777 or A350 no where near as big as an A380.

[neville_nobody]

Local currency compared to local living costs is the important factor, however most of us understand that in general living costs in the USA are lower than in Australia. So if the US pilots are being paid much better than Australian pilots after conversion, then they are doing much, much better when compared to living costs. So the point still stands that Australia is far behind them in real terms.


If that’s not enough then just have a look at the US tax rates compared to Australia for the amount of money you are being paid….

[43Inches]

If that’s not enough then just have a look at the US tax rates compared to Australia for the amount of money you are being paid….

That really depends on domicile, some states are great, others you will get stung on payroll tax. But that being said, even the worst state would be better than the amount of tax we pay in Australia, when you add on all the hidden taxes we pay as well. Also depending on your level of investments the tax return system is very different with the IRS. Then everything is cheaper (depending on state taxes that is), cars, travel, basic food and housing. Just make sure you have a good health insurance plan, again nothing that's extra to what we pay in Australia, as most pilots will be required to have private insurance or pay medicare levies, however if you skimp on insurance in the US you will be facing huge bills if you attend hospital, and may not even get into some places in a timely manner (or at all) without insurance.

[neville_nobody]

That really depends on domicile, some states are great, others you will get stung on payroll tax. But that being said, even the worst state would be better than the amount of tax we pay in Australia, when you add on all the hidden taxes we pay as well. Also depending on your level of investments the tax return system is very different with the IRS.


Yes it is very location dependant and you can throw in land tax in some states there as well. However if you look at what is deductible and the overall amount of tax you pay you are a long way in front in the USA on high salaries.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Local currency compared to local living costs is the important factor, however most of us understand that in general living costs in the USA are lower than in Australia. So if the US pilots are being paid much better than Australian pilots after conversion, then they are doing much, much better when compared to living costs. So the point still stands that Australia is far behind them in real terms.

PS the US "smallest aircraft" hourly rate for the US airlines is an A220 or A319, not a widebody. The US "largest aircraft" payrates are for 787/777 or A350 no where near as big as an A380.

Yep, fair enough. I was only trying to say that for those in Aus you don’t have to be poorly paid. That top rate I quoted was for the 787.

[RealSatoshi]

Conversion isn’t useful - it’s the currency in the country you live that’s important.

What you are looking for is Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) which is available on the OECD Data page: OECD Data: Purchasing Power Parities (https://data.oecd.org/conversion/purchasing-power-parities-ppp.htm)

Purchasing power parities (PPPs) are the rates of currency conversion that try to equalise the purchasing power of different currencies, by eliminating the differences in price levels between countries. The basket of goods and services priced is a sample of all those that are part of final expenditures: final consumption of households and government, fixed capital formation, and net exports. This indicator is measured in terms of national currency per US dollar.

Here is the data for the last 10 years - it is evident that in 2022 A$1.419 buys you the same as US$1.00.
So, if you want to know what you should be earning in Australia, in order to have Purchasing Power Parity with your US peers, simply take their US$ rates x 1.419 :sad:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1746x752/screenshot_2023_08_13_at_17_32_13_32df4e86079eeb34c41e9a8e95 b2c68aa6bc7c42.png

Top of scale (4th year) Capt widebody 2023 rate: $409/hour. Monthly guarantee approx 78.5hrs.

You'll need A$603 per hour to hold Purchasing Power Parity with your US peers - but wait, even at that rate you'll pay 45% tax in FY2324. Your US peers, should they choose to live in California (highest State Tax), will top out at approximately 37.6% tax :rolleyes:

Not saying the US is a better place to live, or not - but merely comparing like for like in the profession.

[43Inches]

On the coin those airline pilots are on now, the USA is definitely a better place to live. It really is a place where if you have money you can use it, granted there's a few more nuts around, but most of the problems with living in the USA is when you are at the lower end of the income spectrum. As a pilot there's really no better place to be, the GA and Warbird scene is unparalleled, airshows everywhere, cheap planes, lots of places to fly, FBOs to look after you, no CASA, other flying folk are friendly and down to earth.

[RealSatoshi]

Could it be that the proverbial 'Noose' is slowly unravelling - Advertising for Pilots at the Woolies entrance must be a new LOW :E

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x667/qantas_careers_sized_bdf9724975a8166243c574ae3230e8b7c5fadbb d.jpg

[Chronic Snoozer]

For QANTAS or for Woolies? :}

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Advertising for Pilots at the Woolies entrance
Or Woolies must be needing night fillers and the labour hire company they've outsourced it to are recruiting?

[Lead Balloon]

Plenty of ex-Qantas employees are doing fulfilling work for Woolies and other supermarkets.

[RealSatoshi]

For QANTAS or for Woolies? :}

It seems to be a very tight race :sad:
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x375/screenshot_2023_08_15_at_20_40_37_bb228d66ea7e452fd9b6b6d6c6 97d0c2ab1622c0.png
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x330/screenshot_2023_08_15_at_20_39_22_c774763057878f961e152a54c5 e033c2f5ed9c90.png