Ryanair chief pilot fired

[Masteroftheplane]

Yesterday evening RYANAIR DAC chief pilot was fired with immediate effect, the decision follows an investigation which identified a pattern of repeated "innapropiate and unacceptable behaviour towards a number of female pilots"...

[Timmy Tomkins]

I suppose it had to hit the airline world sooner or later

[BobsCousin]

I'm sure he's not the first to do this, but it's good to see people feel empowered enough to come forward now and report this kind of behaviour.

A big congratulations to the people who stood up against this vile being (assuming the allegations are true, which I'm sure they are).

[Ruddyrum]

Just goes to show what sort of outfit it is, when you have individuals like that at the top.

I sincerely hope the authorities use this as an opportunity to take a good look at Ryanair and the questionable Learjet operation they run.

[lfc84]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/06/14/ryanair-chief-aidan-murray-sacked-sexual-harassment/

[rotorwills]

Word from one insider is he was arrested last Friday for questioning. I am sure we are into a Weinstein type of situation

[Right20deg]

This is very bad. That it has come to someone in such a leadership position over a huge and diverse workforce is shocking. I have never heard of anything like this in 40 years in harness.

[Brian Pern]

According to The Telegraph he has been altering rosters of young Female Pilots for 18 months so he could get close to them and no one from the company every suspected anything........I call bull...

[MechEngr]

I have never heard of anything like this in 40 years in harness.

A lot of the reason for that is the likelihood anyone saying any such thing in the past feared being blackballed from the industry and a general acceptance that it was acceptable. In my career I started in offices where pinup calendars were widespread. Definitely a boys club. I think now anyone trying it would get a single warning if not a march to HR to get their separation papers.

[Globally Challenged]

This thread won’t hang around long. They seem to be fairly effective in keeping mud off this website

[hobbit1983]

This thread won’t hang around long. They seem to be fairly effective in keeping mud off this website

Isn't it in the UK national press already?

[rotorwills]

This thread won’t hang around long. They seem to be fairly effective in keeping mud off this website


I think this situation they find themselves in RyanAir will have to be extremely careful in trying to moderate this situation. It’s a PR nightmare and the best they can hope for will be a very quick resolution. However that’s seems to be unlikely as this will attract massive media attention and as we have seen inappropriate actions by senior management with regards to possible career enhancement for favours will be a hot topic. If criminal charges occur then it will be more than a storm. Turbulence can be guaranteed.

[RichardJones]

It just upsets me to hear of people, using their position to take advantage of young women. No, means no. A second time a no its harassment.
At least the outfit set a good example and got rid of him.
Is this sort of behaviour not a criminal offence? If not, why not?

[travelpro]

Harassment doesn't just cover "sexual". There is a toxic management style and it should open up many other scenarios that will allow Cabin crew and Flight deck crew to talk up about incidents where they have felt "Harassed" by management.
Filing fatigue reports, not wanting to go into discretion, reporting unfit for duty simple things that I'm aware crews feel like they will be black balled for doing so. I know some crews on the LearJ operation and the stories from there would raise a lot of questions. The management need to change their attitude, and sharpish now that this has surfaced.

[Klimax]

What a predator! He is being shamed in living daylight by photos and name - kudos to those who spoke up - real woMEN!

[meleagertoo]

As a matter of interest what was his career path/background?
Was he civvy trained or ex AAC?

[Right20deg]

A lot of the reason for that is the likelihood anyone saying any such thing in the past feared being blackballed from the industry and a general acceptance that it was acceptable. In my career I started in offices where pinup calendars were widespread. Definitely a boys club. I think now anyone trying it would get a single warning if not a march to HR to get their separation papers.

I think that you make good points. But a gross misuse of his position. Idiotic.

[The Nr Fairy]

As a matter of interest what was his career path/background?
Was he civvy trained or ex AAC?

That makes f**k all difference.Still wrong.

[BFSGrad]

Is this sort of behaviour not a criminal offence? If not, why not?Based on what’s been reported so far, what would be considered criminal activity under Irish law? If the same happened in the U.S., it would be subject to administrative and civil penalty.

The bigger PR nightmare for Ryanair may be trying to provide a plausible explanation for how this activity continued undetected for 18 months.

From the Irish Sun:

The senior airline source added: “No sexual acts came up in the investigation and there has been no police or Gardai investigation as yet.

"But Ryanair is understood to have told the women affected that if they wanted to pursue anything further with authorities they had the airline's full support."

A Dublin-based Irish Gardai source said there was currently no record of any complaints having been made relating to the alleged incidents.

Ryanair Sacks Chief Pilot (https://www.thesun.ie/news/10881501/ryanair-sacks-chief-pilot-pestering-females-sex-acts-nudes/)

[AerocatS2A]

According to The Telegraph he has been altering rosters of young Female Pilots for 18 months so he could get close to them and no one from the company every suspected anything........I call bull...
Story I read was that he'd been changing his OWN roster to fly with said young female pilots, this would be much easier to slip under the radar.

[HOVIS]

One word. Git!

[dr dre]

From the One Mile at a Time blog (https://onemileatatime.com/news/ryanair-fires-chief-pilot/):

So, what exactly happened? The CP’s career came tumbling down a few weeks ago, following some allegations from junior female staff. Eight female staff between the ages of 21 and 32 provided statements about the CP’s misconduct, which happened in the past 12-18 months. Among other things:

CP would send text messages to junior female pilots, offering to support their careers
CP would then text and say that they had an “amazing body” and “amazing ass,” and he’d then ask them for pictures of their bodies, promising they wouldn’t be shared
CP then changed around rosters of crew members so that he could regularly fly with some of these junior female pilots; about two-thirds of the flights he took were with these pilots



It’s telling to see that these incidents happened only within the last 12 months, and in a carrier that wasn’t a “old school legacy” dominated by pilots from “a different era”. This is meant to be a major employer of young people who we know know will include more young women on the flight deck.

This should serve as a lesson to all those who think that harassment and inappropriate treatment of women in the flight decks is something that stopped years ago, and now it’s all “feminist woke garbage pushing an agenda”. I can see exactly why women’s groups want to push for a more inclusive and safe environment on the flight deck. If the CP at one of the world’s biggest carriers thought he could get away with such behaviour the amount of line pilots who currently do the same must be a significant number.

[WhatShortage]

No one is gonna talk about wizz air culture about hiring CUTE BLONDE ALMOST MODEL women policy? Because I can see the hints, the path ghey follow hiring women and i don't think I am the only one that has come up with this thought... Many friends specially the ones that have gone through their assessment have noticed.

[ATC Watcher]

There is a big elephant in the room here , because : A Dublin-based Irish Gardai source said there was currently no record of any complaints having been made relating to the alleged incidents.

I hate trial by media, and in those days of false/fake allegations routinely being made to get "likes" and " buzz" , I am sceptical of what I see on social media and populist press. If the allegations we read are proven to be true, then the guy definitively deserved the boot, but are they excatly as reported here?
I have seen a few years back in my outfit one guy I knew well be thrown to the wolves and forced to resign following a couple of allegations made by a couple of women. When the dust came down , it became clear that it it was just flirting , and flirting with the boss goes both ways... But in those years of #me too, it is not politically correct fto mention this anymore.

[nomilk]

When the dust came down , it became clear that it it was just flirting , and flirting with the boss goes both ways..."just flirting" doesn't sound convincing to me ... More like the standard excuse used for decades.

[Avman]

There is a big elephant in the room here , because :
I hate trial by media, and in those days of false/fake allegations routinely being made to get "likes" and " buzz" , I am sceptical of what I see on social media and populist press. If the allegations we read are proven to be true, then the guy definitively deserved the boot, but are they excatly as reported here?
I have seen a few years back in my outfit one guy I knew well be thrown to the wolves and forced to resign following a couple of allegations made by a couple of women. When the dust came down , it became clear that it it was just flirting , and flirting with the boss goes both ways... But in those years of #me too, it is not politically correct fto mention this anymore.

You have that story very wrong ATC Watcher. His actions went way beyond "just flirting". The guy in question was guilty of a lot more and the evidence proved it conclusively, which is why he had no option but to "resign". The ladies concerned were highly respected by all their colleagues. You do them a grave injustice.

[jumpseater]

no one from the company every suspected anything........I call bull...

Presumably because you’ve not worked in the crewing/ops community.

Crewing is 24/7/365, and is shift work based. The first hole in the cheese is that because the liaison between a cp and crewing won’t be between the same people all the time, due crewing shift work, a pattern would be difficult to spot, and that’s thinking about doing it by phone. Walking into the crewing area even easier, make sure you don’t ask same officer as last time. The airline pilot managers can almost certainly access the rosters to see when pilot bloggs is flying, so could pick the flight they want to crew rather than asking crewing ‘when is bloggs flying?’ It’s not hard to see in a large airline how with sufficient insider knowledge that this abuse pattern might be difficult to spot.
RYR’s prompt action (and presumably fast review of how the roster changes were managed) send the right message.

[PinOnTheRight]

Presumably because you’ve not worked in the crewing/ops community.

Crewing is 24/7/365, and is shift work based. The first hole in the cheese is that because the liaison between a cp and crewing won’t be between the same people all the time, due crewing shift work, a pattern would be difficult to spot, and that’s thinking about doing it by phone. Walking into the crewing area even easier, make sure you don’t ask same officer as last time. The airline pilot managers can almost certainly access the rosters to see when pilot bloggs is flying, so could pick the flight they want to crew rather than asking crewing ‘when is bloggs flying?’ It’s not hard to see in a large airline how with sufficient insider knowledge that this abuse pattern might be difficult to spot.
RYR’s prompt action (and presumably fast review of how the roster changes were managed) send the right message.

Add to that - 400+ aircraft and almost 6000 pilots all with unique crew codes that give no indication of their age or sex... you're dealing with bits of data rather than individuals.

[Blue_Circle]

There is a big elephant in the room here , because :
I hate trial by media, and in those days of false/fake allegations routinely being made to get "likes" and " buzz" , I am sceptical of what I see on social media and populist press. If the allegations we read are proven to be true, then the guy definitively deserved the boot, but are they excatly as reported here?
I have seen a few years back in my outfit one guy I knew well be thrown to the wolves and forced to resign following a couple of allegations made by a couple of women. When the dust came down , it became clear that it it was just flirting , and flirting with the boss goes both ways... But in those years of #me too, it is not politically correct fto mention this anymore.
Nobody has been sharing information to get "likes or buzz". He's been fired after a formal investigation into his behaviour.

[ATC Watcher]

You have that story very wrong ATC Watcher. His actions went way beyond "just flirting". The guy in question was guilty of a lot more and the evidence proved it conclusively, which is why he had no option but to "resign". The ladies concerned were highly respected by all their colleagues. You do them a grave injustice.
You might have more info, and if indeed it is a reported , and as I said already, the guy deserves what he is getting and more if it is indeed real sexual harassment, I am just quetioning the social media immediate "guilty trial" , while the police said they have received no complaints . That was all, I have no horse in that race, I do not know the guy and do not have any contacts inside RYR.

[hobbit1983]

There is a big elephant in the room here , because :
I hate trial by media, and in those days of false/fake allegations routinely being made to get "likes" and " buzz" , I am sceptical of what I see on social media and populist press. If the allegations we read are proven to be true, then the guy definitively deserved the boot, but are they excatly as reported here?
I have seen a few years back in my outfit one guy I knew well be thrown to the wolves and forced to resign following a couple of allegations made by a couple of women. When the dust came down , it became clear that it it was just flirting , and flirting with the boss goes both ways... But in those years of #me too, it is not politically correct fto mention this anymore.

This was not a couple of allegations by a couple of women. This was eight women with multiple allegations. There was a formal investigation. He was let go.
I very much doubt he is the victim here??

[Avman]

You might have more info, and if indeed it is a reported , and as I said already, the guy deserves what he is getting and more if it is indeed real sexual harassment, I am just quetioning the social media immediate "guilty trial" , while the police said they have received no complaints . That was all, I have no horse in that race, I do not know the guy and do not have any contacts inside RYR.

Not referring to this Ryanair case but the case you mentioned from your place of work:

I have seen a few years back in my outfit one guy I knew well be thrown to the wolves and forced to resign following a couple of allegations made by a couple of women. When the dust came down , it became clear that it it was just flirting

[WillowRun 6-3]

As investigation of claims of misconduct in the nature of sexual harassment and sex-based discrimination, and representation of clients confronted with such claims - sometimes both for any given client - were routine portions of my legal practice for a good number of years, a few observations:

A "resignation" label can be slapped onto a separation which otherwise would be a publicly embarrassing firing, of course. Doubtful that the individual here had an executive employment agreement which typically would define how various types of separation (for various reasons) will be handled. Unless it has eluded coverage, it doesn't appear that the individual has proclaimed totally innocent conduct or conduct improper only in the slightest degree.

Also, if as alleged there was deliberate and overt manipulation of crew schedules, imho that is a damning fact. In most harassment cases there is not an opportunity similar to this, to arrange for proximity of a person intended to be subjected to harassment. Taking advantage of situations where the person happens to be present or is usually present, yes - the "bring your draft report to my hotel suite and we'll review it there" fact pattern common in such cases. But arranging schedules is a different level of premeditation.

Maybe just because I'm SLF I think there's also a factor that in the mind of the traveling public, what happens on layovers is the private business of consenting adults, but changing schedules unbeknowst to the other person for purposes of proximity suggests that the one doing the changing is not focused sufficiently on the magenta line, or children thereof.

[Sea Plane Driver]

Looks like this guy was just a dinosaur and an idiot, rather than a pig like Harvey Weinstein, or maybe he was all 3?
Either way, good riddance..

[dr dre]

There is a big elephant in the room here , because :
I hate trial by media, and in those days of false/fake allegations routinely being made to get "likes" and " buzz" , I am sceptical of what I see on social media and populist press. If the allegations we read are proven to be true, then the guy definitively deserved the boot, but are they excatly as reported here?


There was no police or criminal investigation into the incidents.

But there was an internal company investigation on 8 written complaints and the Chief Pilot was fired after that was completed.

An allegation of workplace harassment does not need to go to the police in order for an employee to be fired.

I have seen a few years back in my outfit one guy I knew well be thrown to the wolves and forced to resign following a couple of allegations made by a couple of women. When the dust came down , it became clear that it it was just flirting , and flirting with the boss goes both ways... But in those years of #me too, it is not politically correct fto mention this anymore.

This was not mere “harmless flirting”. The guy was sending messages to female coworkers saying they had an “amazing ass” and asking for pictures. That’s WAY beyond flirting and any reasonable person knows that’s sexual harassment.

And especially given the position of power he held and his ability to adversely influence the career of these young women if they chose to reject his advances.

[Sfisfi]

Definitely all 3, just surprised it took this long ... well done Ryanair for dismissing him. The allegations are a bit more serious than what the press state

[hunterboy]

I don’t think that this is anything new. Wasn’t there a predatory Chief Pilot in BA not so long ago that was manipulating rosters to fly with another skippers wife? Where there’s a willy, there’s a way.

[ETOPS]

Wasn’t there a predatory Chief Pilot in BA not so long ago

Love that “ not so long ago” :ok:

Try 24 years ago ….

[Blue_Circle]

When the dust came down , it became clear that it it was just flirting
Do you mean the accusers admitted they had lied, or that in the opinion of some observers it was 'just flirting'?

[FUMR]

Blue_Circle: what you quote was actually posted by ATC Watcher.

[slast]

Today's London Times seems fairly comprehensive: I was particularly impressed by the paragraph I've emphasised at the bottom!
Ryanair has fired its chief pilot after an inquiry found a “pattern of repeated inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour” towards nine junior female pilots.
Aidan Murray was dismissed with immediate effect on Tuesday after a two-week investigation found he had harassed and groomed the pilots, aged between 21 and 32.
The Times understands that Murray, 58, who is married, sent inappropriate text messages to female cadet pilots offering them support in their careers.
The messages progressed to comments about their figures, with references to a “great body” and an “amazing ass” as well as questions about their love life and sexual activity. In at least two cases he asked for pictures, promising that they would not be sent on.
The inquiry began after an anonymous whistleblower claimed he had groomed four junior female pilots and had several “pet favourites”.
Murray was appointed chief pilot in 2020 and was legally required to fly about once a month to maintain his licence. The investigation found he altered rotas so he could share a cockpit with the junior pilots. In the past 12 months, Murray had flown 18 times and altered the rota on 14 occasions.
A source close to the investigation dismissed claims that the relationships were sexual in any way, but many of the junior pilots believed his conduct was progressing in that way. At least two of them said he had patted their rears in his office, another in a car park.
The source denied rumours that Murray had been arrested but said the airline had made clear to the victims that they would be supported in any way if they wished to pursue charges. The affected pilots have also been offered counselling.
Murray was interviewed three times as part of the investigation. Darrell Hughes, Ryanair chief people officer, wrote in an email to staff: “We regret to advise all of you that last evening we terminated with immediate effect the employment of the Ryanair DAC chief pilot (who was appointed in 2020).
“This decision follows an investigation over recent days which identified a pattern of repeated inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour towards a number of female junior pilots, which was in breach of our anti-harassment policy.
“We are determined to ensure that all our people can come to work in a safe and secure environment.”
The Times understands that Murray did not co-operate with the investigation, saying he faced a “witch-hunt”. He later claimed he had not sent the text messages and — after being provided with proof — said he had done so when drunk. It is also understood he contacted some of his victims and urged them not to assist the inquiry.
Murray was dismissed on four allegations, including cultivating inappropriate relationships with female pilots. He has a right of appeal for seven days.
A spokesman for Ryanair said the airline would not comment on individual employees. Murray could not be contacted for comment..

[WHBM]

He later claimed he had not sent the text messages and — after being provided with proof — said he had done so when drunk.
And. separately, anyone who cannot handle their drink, on duty or off, is surely not in any position to have the responsibilities of the Chief Pilot ANYWAY.

However did Michael O'Leary and the other senior executives not spot all this long before ?

[WillowRun 6-3]

And. separately, anyone who cannot handle their drink, on duty or off, is surely not in any position to have the responsibilities of the Chief Pilot ANYWAY.

However did Michael O'Leary and the other senior executives not spot all this long before ?
And someone dull enough to conduct such overtures in a form readily preserved, available and discoverable, serving as chief pilot?

[tubby linton]

The Irish police may be involved so this board should shut and delete this thread asap.

[rotorwings]

The Irish police may be involved so this board should shut and delete this thread asap.

Please explain why?

[Masteroftheplane]

The Irish police may be involved so this board should shut and delete this thread asap.


Are you related to Mr Aidan Murray perhaps?

[left10]

Ryanair bashing at its best!
So the guy had a little flirt. Yes abused his power. Yes he was wrong. YES SHOULD BE FIRED!
But!!! Face and identity plastered all over the tabloids? I mean come on. Too much. Undeserved. I feel sorry for the poor chap.
Go ahead slate me….

[tubby linton]

Please explain why? In case it prejudices any criminal trial.

[FUMR]

Ryanair bashing at its best!
So the guy had a little flirt. Yes abused his power. Yes he was wrong. YES SHOULD BE FIRED!
But!!! Face and identity plastered all over the tabloids? I mean come on. Too much. Undeserved. I feel sorry for the poor chap.
Go ahead slate me….

"Ryanair bashing"! Nothing whatsoever to do with Ryanair bashing!

[DaveReidUK]

But!!! Face and identity plastered all over the tabloids?

We're talking about Ryanair's Chief Pilot - his name and what he looks like are hardly secret.

[speed13ird]

We're talking about Ryanair's Chief Pilot - his name and what he looks like are hardly secret.

Not any more they're not!

NB: Two things a pilot needs to avoid - fame and stress.

[nomilk]

Ryanair bashing at its best!

Ryanair for once looking really good, I would say. Nothing swept under the carpet, support for the victims, good communication. Quite impressive, actually.

[Airmann]

The world is full of this sort of stuff. You’ve led a seriously sheltered life (or you’re just lying) if any says that they are in anyway shocked.

[Brexoff]

Taking out the unprofessionalism side of this.

In general the only difference between flirting and harassment is attraction.

2 people could do the exact same thing without consent: inappropriate comment, inappropriate joke, inappropriate hugging etc.

If one looks like Jack Black he’s in hot water, if the other looks like Jack Grealish he’ll probably get a more favourable response.

This chap rolled the dice and lost (albeit the odds were very much stacked against him because he’s not exactly Jack Grealish in looks or age)

[prickly]

My guess is if he had been asking young male pilots for similar photos it would be perfectly acceptable to all these virtue signalling posters above.

[dr dre]

My guess is if he had been asking young male pilots for similar photos it would be perfectly acceptable to all these virtue signalling posters above.

No it would still be workplace harassment

[tdracer]

The world is full of this sort of stuff. You’ve led a seriously sheltered life (or you’re just lying) if any says that they are in anyway shocked.
There was a time - not that long ago - when that sort of behavior was, well it was not acceptable, but it was accepted. There was a senior guy in engine management that was well known for his womanizing and general behavior towards women - back in the 1970's and early '80's we joked about it. Around 1990 things changed and guidance started coming down that 'sexual harassment' would not be tolerated, and if someone was so accused there were basically on their own - the company wouldn't help them.
There was immediate talk about how long this particular guy in engine management would last. Turns out not all that long - a few years later he abruptly retired, with plenty of rumors regarding him being given the option of retiring or getting charged.
It's a changed world (at least in this case for the better), but some people haven't changed with it.

[dc9-32]

Its not necessarily the incident that ruins the people involved (both sides) but social media and the press. The world has gone totally mad largely due to social media and the keyboard experts !! As for the press, well, they are just unbelievably good at destroying people.

[Flyingmac]

Its not necessarily the incident that ruins the people involved (both sides) but social media and the press. The world has gone totally mad largely due to social media and the keyboard experts !! As for the press, well, they are just unbelievably good at destroying people.

Well said. I wonder if Ryanair have selected a eunuch to replace him?

[dr dre]

Its not necessarily the incident that ruins the people involved (both sides) but social media and the press. The world has gone totally mad largely due to social media and the keyboard experts !! As for the press, well, they are just unbelievably good at destroying people.

The press are just reporting on a story within the public interest. The Chief Pilot of one of the world's biggest airlines being sacked for sexual harassment was going to make headlines. If he wanted to avoid being "destroyed" in the media then all he had to do was not brazenly harass his co-workers.

Well said. I wonder if Ryanair have selected a eunuch to replace him?

Really? You don't need to be a "Eunuch" to not sexually harass women.

[SWBKCB]

Well said - this isn't flirting, it's a manipulative abuse of power by somebody who had influence over the careers of others.

[Fortissimo]

The Irish police may be involved so this board should shut and delete this thread asap.

The company has clearly done an investigation of its own to find sufficient cause to terminate the employment of this person. Any police involvement thereafter starts from scratch and is not going to consider anonymous postings on a chat site because it would not stand up as evidence.

Comparre this current event and process with eg the Sarah Everard murder case: once the suspect was arrested there was a complete media frenzy - social and mainstream. Nobody shut down chat sites or the TV/newspaper discussions. When a case like that comes to court, the judge simply directs the jury (in most countries) that they must consider the case on the facts presented to them in court, not what they might have read or seen beforehand.

Rather than shut this thread down, it would arguably be better to expand it - as already seems to be happening - into a wider discussion on harassment (sexual or otherwise) in the workplace. That way, we might set the conditions for more women to feel comfortable joining the industry.

[Tartiflette Fan]

The company has clearly done an investigation of its own to find sufficient cause to terminate the employment of this person. Any police involvement thereafter starts from scratch and is not going to consider anonymous postings on a chat site because it would not stand up as evidence.


As was made clear several years ago - and is still prominent on the opening page of the site - that anonymity can be stripped away if (whichever ) authority can show sufficient reason, or maybe even on request. The site-owner has said that they will hand over details if required ( unsure under what level of duress ) The post in itself is unlikely to be evidence, but may lead to such.

[Flyingmac]

=Really? You don't need to be a "Eunuch" to not sexually harass women.

If Ryanair want to protect themselves from future law suits, then eunuchs on the flight deck would appear to be the way forward.
The ultimate in virtue signalling.

[SWBKCB]

If Ryanair want to protect themselves from future law suits, then eunuchs on the flight deck would appear to be the way forward.
The ultimate in virtue signalling.

Meanwhile, back in the 1950's...

[DaveReidUK]

The ultimate in virtue signalling.

If "virtue signalling" is wanting to protect employees from the unwanted sexual advances of a manager (allegedly), then signal away ...

[nomilk]

My guess is if he had been asking young male pilots for similar photos it would be perfectly acceptable to all these virtue signalling posters above.
Really, you would just accept that as a young (male) pilot? You would be too afraid to come forward then? Why's that?

[hobbit1983]

Its not necessarily the incident that ruins the people involved (both sides) but social media and the press. The world has gone totally mad largely due to social media and the keyboard experts !! As for the press, well, they are just unbelievably good at destroying people.

I wonder if the 8 women who were sexually harassed and put in extremely worrying positions at work (to say the least) by someone with power over their careers and livelihood...would agree with this comment.

[dr dre]

If Ryanair want to protect themselves from future law suits, then eunuchs on the flight deck would appear to be the way forward.
The ultimate in virtue signalling.

What are you implying there? That sexually harassing behaviour is acceptable in the workplace as any “red blooded man” would do the same?

[Flyingmac]

If "virtue signalling" is wanting to protect employees from the unwanted sexual advances of a manager (allegedly), then signal away ...

You've either taken that sentence out of context, or are volunteering to be the first eunuch. Which is it?

[Magplug]

This has nothing to do with males or females. Ryanair management have correctly identified that in this day & age such a story is extremely toxic to their brand. So to distance themselves from a whole mess of bad publicity the alleged culprit gets thrown onto the fire without further ceremony. It is quite within Ryanair's capability to identify inappropriate roster shenanigans without having to put anyone on the rack. Gross misconduct in any company will get you instant dismissal so as long as they have followed the correct process, ending in 7 days to appeal, then he is toast and not coming back.

It's all about saying the right things and protecting the brand.

[Flyingmac]

Nutshell.:D

[pax britanica]

As a passenger one would think the Chief Pilot at any airline should have two qualifications above all

1 Judgement - clealry grossly lacking not just in what he did but the way he did it

2 Leadership - setting an example

Presumeably he would have had a major if not final say over crew careers , does Capt X get another spell in the sim or let go, does FO Y have the suitability for command , display judgment and analysis where significant incidents occur.

In his presumebly long career didnt anyone wonder , this blokes a bit strange' so while Ryanair have acted promptly and decisvely how the hell did he get that far in the first place

[Sea Plane Driver]

but one should treat those thus admired with the utmost respect and honor.

A bad idea to rearrange the roster so as to fly with attractive female pilots.
A chief will sometimes arrange to fly with a questionable pilot, to see for himself, or herself, if the negative
report from line Captains have merit, or not.

I have flown with numerous female pilots, but female attributes, or charm did not influence anything on the flight deck, none.
​​​​​​​I was also married to a pilot. (Female in case somebody wondered.)

[WHBM]

It is quite within Ryanair's capability to identify inappropriate roster shenanigans
Yes, but wouldn't it be the Chief Pilot's department who would be responsible to identify such roster issues ... ?

[CARR30]

This thread won’t hang around long. They seem to be fairly effective in keeping mud off this website

This story is hardly the level of Simon Wood depravity and Ryanair seems to have dealt with this case effectively.


​​​​

[dc9-32]

I wonder if the 8 women who were sexually harassed and put in extremely worrying positions at work (to say the least) by someone with power over their careers and livelihood...would agree with this comment.

I wasn't suggesting they agree. I'm fully 100% with them but it would be social media that makes them feel a whole lot worse possibly.

[Eutychus]

As was made clear several years ago - and is still prominent on the opening page of the site - that anonymity can be stripped away if (whichever ) authority can show sufficient reason, or maybe even on request. The site-owner has said that they will hand over details if required ( unsure under what level of duress ) The post in itself is unlikely to be evidence, but may lead to such.

Isn't more actual evidence, and anything that leads to it coming to light, a good thing?

[DaveReidUK]

As was made clear several years ago - and is still prominent on the opening page of the site - that anonymity can be stripped away if (whichever ) authority can show sufficient reason, or maybe even on request. The site-owner has said that they will hand over details if required ( unsure under what level of duress ) The post in itself is unlikely to be evidence, but may lead to such.

Yes, but that warning was/is about litigious parties who objected to what a poster is saying, being able to force PPRuNe to reveal said poster's details as a prelude to legal action, e.g. for defamation.

While PPRuNe would doubtless also give a poster's details to a law enforcement agency who thought a poster might have information useful to an investigation, the likelihood of that scenario seems pretty remote.

[172_driver]

In his presumebly long career didnt anyone wonder , this blokes a bit strange' so while Ryanair have acted promptly and decisvely how the hell did he get that far in the first place

It's not the soft skills or social skills that gets you anywhere in Ryanair. This guy was an ass to me about 10 years ago. I was a bit surprised he'd cock it up like this, but not sorry...

[Una Due Tfc]

I’m no fan of Ryanair, but they appear to have handled this well. I’m very surprised to see people defending this guy.

[KAPAC]

Ryanair is the Fox News of aviation which makes MOL RM .

[45989]

Ryanair is the Fox News of aviation which makes MOL RM .
Nail on the Head

[dr dre]

I’m no fan of Ryanair, but they appear to have handled this well. I’m very surprised to see people defending this guy.

Unfortunately not all inappropriate behaviour has been stamped out of the flight deck.

KLM justified to fire pilot after 20 years of sexual misconduct, threats, court rules (https://nltimes.nl/2023/04/04/klm-justified-fire-pilot-20-years-sexual-misconduct-threats-court-rules)

Pilot sues Southwest after colleague stripped naked in front of her during a flight (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pilot-sues-southwest-after-colleague-exposes-himself/)

12 Flight Attendants Open Up About Being Harassed By Pilots and Other Coworkers (https://www.cosmopolitan.com/career/a16639463/flight-attendants-sexually-harassed-by-pilots/)

Air Canada loses bid to defer grievance over pilot’s sexual harassment on layover in Tel Aviv (https://hrlawcanada.com/2023/05/air-canada-loses-bid-to-defer-grievance-over-pilots-sexual-harassment-on-layover-in-tel-aviv/)

[Brix]

I remember well all the horrible experiences I had with those princes of darkness abusing their power. Now it's a thing of the past and I'm still flying, not in the UK or Ireland.

I will never ever fly with this airline.

[a797]

It took sexual harassment to bring this creep down, but now I hope that a spotlight will be shined on the rest of the management setup there. The company is littered with bullying managers as these are the kind of people who rise up through the ranks in that place.

Ruthless self serving company arse lickers willing to step all over their colleagues and enforce intimidation are the types who usually become base captains/base cabin crew managers and onwards and upwards in the organisation.

Truly awful company, hopefully the chief pilot won't be the last to fall.

[MissChief]

Is this really so important? Hardly a flight safety issue, and not very interesting to most of us. Anyway, well done Ryanair.

[Bksmithca]

Is this really so important? Hardly a flight safety issue, and not very interesting to most of us. Anyway, well done Ryanair.
MissChief, you need to decide on which side of the fence you wish to walk on. In this post https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/653154-first-ever-all-female-hajj-flight-makes-history.html you complained that a middle eastern country were or are executing Sri Lankan maids/slaves and how outrageous it was. Yet on this post your commenting "is this really so important" that an alleged "repeat inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour towards a number of female pilots" abuser was terminated.

[John Marsh]

Is this really so important? Hardly a flight safety issue, and not very interesting to most of us. Anyway, well done Ryanair.
Could sexual harassment degrade CRM?

[dr dre]

Is this really so important? Hardly a flight safety issue, and not very interesting to most of us.

First off an issue does not need to be a "flight safety issue" to be a thread on this forum. As the forum description states: "Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots."

This is the Chief Pilot of one of the world's biggest airlines, and highlights an issue that is a major one with a growing number of the pilot pool. Even though I am not female I would like to see more discussion and reporting around these issues of workplace harassment which would adversely affect the employment of some of my colleagues.

And I believe it is a safety issue. These women were subject to flying with a known harasser, someone who could affect their career. What if they resisted the CP's advances and then he denied them a promotion? What if they became afraid to speak up on safety issues in his presence? What if being subject to harassment distracted them from their jobs? Lots of issues at play there.

[45989]

It took sexual harassment to bring this creep down, but now I hope that a spotlight will be shined on the rest of the management setup there. The company is littered with bullying managers as these are the kind of people who rise up through the ranks in that place.

Ruthless self serving company arse lickers willing to step all over their colleagues and enforce intimidation are the types who usually become base captains/base cabin crew managers and onwards and upwards in the organisation.

Truly awful company, hopefully the chief pilot won't be the last to fall.
The real truth about this will never come out. Irish libel laws and ryr's Stasi approach to disclosing facts (recent nose gear collapse?) will ensure silence.......

[hans brinker]

My guess is if he had been asking young male pilots for similar photos it would be perfectly acceptable to all these virtue signalling posters above.

So do you think what he did would be okay if he had asked for pictures, and patted the @$$ in the office of guys 35 years younger than him, who were subordinate to him?

And just to make sure, the answer is NO, NOT ACCEPTABLE.
And we would have "virtue signaled" that as well, and the same if the CP had been female. Sexual harassments is not confined to gender in any way. It is about abuse of power.

[hans brinker]

The Irish police may be involved so this board should shut and delete this thread asap.

Sorry, but really? All that has been posted here is links to public newspapers, and idle speculation based on that. Nothing said on here is of any interest to the Garda.

[punkalouver]

a bad idea to rearrange the roster so as to fly with attractive female pilots.
A chief will sometimes arrange to fly with a questionable pilot, to see for himself, or herself, if the negative
report from line captains have merit, or not.

I have flown with numerous female pilots, but female attributes, or charm did not influence anything on the flight deck, none.
I was also married to a pilot. (female in case somebody wondered.)

​​​​​​​was?

[SLXOwft]

As a matter of interest what was his career path/background?
Was he civvy trained or ex AAC?

28 years with RYR - previously Dep CP.

[J.O.]

My guess is if he had been asking young male pilots for similar photos it would be perfectly acceptable to all these virtue signalling posters above.
Might I humbly suggest you do some work on improving your ability to make guesses, because this one is very far off the mark. As for the suggestion that calling out toxic misogyny is in any way virtue signalling, I suppose one would need to have evolved above the level of neanderthal to understand why this is beyond the pale.

As for the press, well, they are just unbelievably good at destroying people.

Respectfully, Mr. Murray's destruction was completely self-inflicted. His inability to read the room makes him the wrong candidate for dishwasher, never mind Chief Pilot in a large international airline operation in the 21st century.

[Magplug]

Why is it that the perpetrators of such behaviour don't really get that what they are doing is both threatening and offensive to others? To have such an imbalance between strong sexual drive and an absence of empathy with a victim is something that is beyond the understanding of most people. Is this simply another manifestation of bullying or an indication that the perpetrator lies on the spectrum between normality and Psychopathy. Similar cases appear often manifested in well-qualified, ambitious, high achieving individuals who appear to give little thought to the consequences of their actions.

I have seen a willingness to manipulate others in pursuit of one's ambitions quite frequently amongst airline managers..... It does make me wonder?

[WillowRun 6-3]

Well, as with many things in life, love, and flying, there are matters of degree.

The misconduct here was egregious in its manipulative character. It isn't a case - as far as I have seen reported - of rape, or attempted rape or sexual assault of any type in a ​physical sense. But my view (based on having advised clients in many cases akin to this fact pattern, and conducted many client organization training programs as outside legal counsel) is that in this specific instance, the egregious conduct is just as severe as physical conduct -- why?

Because in this day and age this misconduct is the exact opposite, or nearly the exact opposite, of what a Chief Pilot ought to be doing with regard to less senior (and correct me if I'm mistaken, significantly less senior in this matter) women aviators seeking to conduct their careers. That is, being a resource to aid in their progressing in proficiency, developing and sharpening flying instincts, rolling up flight hours. Instead of mentoring, he was not only abusing the authority of his position of employment and official role, but doing so in a way deliberately calculated to restrain, limit, or otherwise retard or delay these pilots' career progression.

What I'm driving at is that I'm willing to be called a bit naive for saying that I believe 100 percent of these women aviators wanted to fly airline aircraft and to do so utterly and solely professionally, with no invitation, express, implied, located by divining rod or otherwise perceived, to open their personal lives (romance, relationship, intimacy) to anyone simply because they happen to work for the company. The misconduct resulted in a kind of opportunity cost forced upon them. And it's especially inexcusable precisely because as CP this person should have been seeking constantly to provide, or to suggest at least, opportunities instead for these women aviators to enhance their careers. A pathetic, and sad, story, alas.

[MissChief]

MissChief, you need to decide on which side of the fence you wish to walk on. In this post https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/653154-first-ever-all-female-hajj-flight-makes-history.html you complained that a middle eastern country were or are executing Sri Lankan maids/slaves and how outrageous it was. Yet on this post your commenting "is this really so important" that an alleged "repeat inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour towards a number of female pilots" abuser was terminated.
Illogical comment. I have no axe to grind about female pilots, and have every sympathy with those that have been mis-treated in the course of their duties. However, I have an axe to grind about the immoral and undemocratic state of Saudi Arabia. Having flown many Hajj flights, the experience most of us Western pilots was bad. We were treated like lepers by Jeddah ATC, Saudi Immigration, and Saudi officialdom everywhere. (Indonesia was much better) And as for harsh treatment in the flight deck, plenty is dished out by trainers and line captains, which FO's have to suck up. Sexual abuse is another matter of course. It was alleged, not proven, in this case.